Sitting of 8 April 1811

GRAND SOUTHERN CANAL BILL.
Mr. Sumnermoved the order of the day for the second reading of the Grand Southern Canal Bill.
Lord George Cavendishfelt if his duty to oppose the Bill, on the ground of its being the proposition of a certain number of speculating individuals, who were totally unconnected with great interests of the county; and because it was in direct contradiction to the wishes, the opinions, and the interests of the principal land holders. He hoped the House would not countenance this Bill, which was part of a system now very much acted on of pushing forward measures contrary to the sense of the great majority of the chiefly interested: he therefore would propose as Amendment, "That this bill be read a second time this day six months."
Mr. Sumnerdenied that the Bill was brought forward by, speculators and said that it had the sanction great names as the duke of Norfolk and lord Egremont. He maintained that the Canal would be of eminent advantage in conveying a principal part or the lading the East and West India outward bound fleets; and hoped that the Bill would be suffered to go into a Committee; in order that its merits might be fairly considered.
Sir Charles Burrellcontended that many advantages would result from the formation

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of this Canal. There were many valuable stone quarries along the projected line; there were large tracts of waste lands, which would be benefited; and the junction of the river Ouse canal would also be attended with material advantage. Besides, the quick conveyance of naval stores to Portsmouth would be effected by it. On all these grounds he would support the Bill.
Mr. Calcraftdid not agree in opinion with the hon. baronet, that any of those advantages would result from the proposed canal, the chief part of which, according to his statement, would affect the Sussex part of the line, for which a Bill should be brought in next year, as they were obliged to vary the notices; so that the only part which could proceed, if this Bill was carried through, would be the offensive part, namely, that part which was to run through the county of Kent. It was farcical to talk of the communication of Northfleet, and Woolwich, and Chatham, with Portsmouth, by means of this canal; for a canal from Croydon would answer all those purposes without cutting up 1,400 acres of land. The fact was, that not one of the great landed proprietors in Kent were favourable to the measure; and if the county members were not absent from indisposition, there was no doubt of their opposing it in their places. Neither were any of the principal towns of Sussex likely to be benefited by it, as it was to run parallel to the sea. The great objection was, that there was no landholder in favour of it; and though the duke of Norfolk and lord Egremont had compromised with the projectors of this Canal, they had been originally adverse to it, and their names were only made use of now to give a colour to the business, and to assist in cramming it down the throats of those who were adverse to it. He hoped, therefore that the House would set its face against the system of which this was a part.
Mr. Hurst, opposed the Bill, and said that he did not believe that there were two landholders in the county of Kent favourable to it. He knew no recompense which could be made for the injuries which would be done to extensive and beautiful plantations which this Canal would destroy. There were other objections arising from the variety of projectors, and neglect forms of the House, which induced, him vote for the Amendment.
The House then divided when there appeared

For the Amendment

100

Against it

17

Majority

—

33

The Bill was consequently lost.

PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RELATING TO PORTUGAL
The Chancellor of the, Exchequer presented the following Message from the Prince Regent:
"GEORGE, P. R.
"The Prince Regent, in the name and on behalf of his Majesty, having taken into his serious consideration the accounts which he has received of the severe distresses to which the inhabitants of a part of the kingdom of Portugal, have been exposed in their persons and property, in consequence of the invasion of that country, and especially from the wanton and, savage barbarity exercised by the French armies in their recent retreat, which cannot fail to affect the hearts of all persons, who have any sense of religion, or humanity, desires to be enabled by the House, of Commons to afford to the suffering subjects of his Majesty's, good and faithful ally such speedy and, effectual relief, may be suitable, to this interesting and, afflicting occasion G. P. R."
Ordered to be referred to the Committee of Supply

STATE OF THE KING'S HEALTH.
Mr. Whitbreadrose to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether it was his intention to make any communication to the House, on the subject of his Majesty's health By the Regency Act the Queen's Council were required to make a Report to the President of the Privy Council, in the first week of April, as to the state of his Majesty's health. This Report must now have been made; and with a view to the regulation of his own conduct, he wished to know whether it was intended to lay this communication before House.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied that he had no objection to any motion to that effect being made by the hon. gentleman.
Mr. Whitbreadthen moved "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, praying that he would be graciously pleased to order that there be laid before the House copy of the Communication made by her

Majesty's Council to the President of the Privy Council, respecting the state of his Majesty's health."
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that though it was not his intention to oppose the motion made by the hon. gent, yet he could not help thinking that it would have been more decent to have given some short time for previous consideration on the subject. However, he should not now make any opposition, for fear of any misconstruction of his motives, and because he did not apprehend any inconvenience would arise from this communication being made a day earlier than it might otherwise have been.
Mr. Whitbreadreplied, that when the right hon. gent, made his new arrangement relative to Notices and Orders of the Day, several members had distinctly Stated to him that they would not feel themselves bound at all" times to give a previous notice. As the right hon. gent, himself did not object, and as this motion would not interfere with any particular business expected to be the subject of discussion this evening, he thought he could not have chosen a fairer occasion to assert his privilege. But he wished it to be clearly understood, that without disrespect to the House or any individual, he considered himself at liberty to move without notice on any day, and on any occasion whatever.
The motion was then agreed to.

SCARCITY OF SMALL CHANGE.
On the motion for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,
Lord Folkestonerose, to call the attention of the House to a subject in which the country was at present very much interested. He did so on this occasion for two reasons. In the first place, he considered it as a great and important privilege of a member of Parliament, at the time the Supplies were voted, to enter upon and discuss any measure or circumstance connected with the state of the country. It was of the greatest consequence that this privilege, founded in practice and no less in the fundamental principles of the constitution, should be frequently exercised, and never permitted to fall into disuse. It was the more necessary now, since the business of the House had been cramped by the new Regulation with regard to Notices, The importance of the subject itself, to which he alluded, was another, reason for taking
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the first opportunity to call the attention of the House to it. Every one knew how difficult it was at present to procure small specie for the common transactions of life. Not only bankers and tradesmen, but every gentleman must have experienced this difficulty. It. was not only felt with the utmost severity in the metropolis, but also in the country. He had lately received a letter from a person in the vicinity of the place where he lived, who went to a fair in the neighbourhood to settle some small bills. He had occasion to pass through a town in which there was a bank, but was not able to get change for a one pound note. He went all over the fair to get change, but with out success; and at last he was enabled to settle only a small bill of twelve shillings and six-pence, with one who gave him the difference in silver, stating that this was all the change he had. The people at the fair found it almost impossible to sell or purchase goods, owing to the want of silver; and it was not unusual to see three, four, or five persons clubbing together to buy some things for which they had occasion, in order to bring up the amount to a one pound note. He could not but regard this want of silver as a severe calamity; and he mentioned it with a view to draw the attention of gentlemen to it, that they might turn it in their minds, and endeavour to devise a remedy. This was the more imperiously demanded, as the evil was not upon the decrease, but likely to advance in a rapid proportion.
Mr. G. Vansittartsaid, he had received a letter from the country of a similar nature with that to which the noble lord had adverted. The Speaker then left the chair.

SIERRA LEONE.
Mr. Wharton, after stating the circumstances which, had occasioned the. delay in the departure of the Chief Justice of Sierra Leone (Mr. Thorpe), namely the difficulty, which existed in the drawing out of the charter; and, subsequently, the impossibility of procuring an opportunity to go out, none occurring till within the last three weeks, moved, "That 14,495 l. 11 s. 6d. to be granted to his Majesty, for defraying the expences of the civil establishment of Sierra Leone, during the year 1811."
Mr. Dentobserved, that, until the charter was signed, the appointment of the Chief Justice could not be considered

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as legal; and that, therefore, he was not entitled to his salary until that period.
Mr. Whartonexplained. Mr. Thorpe had been appointed in 1808, when it was imagined that the charter would be executed in a very short time. In the first place, however, there was found considerable difficulty in preparing the bill of instructions. This occupied three months. It was then submitted to the Attorney General, afterwards to Lord Ellenborough and lastly to the Lord Chancellor, by whom several doubts were entertained with respect to different parts of the instrument; and which doubts occasioned an additional delay of near a twelvemonth. During the whole of this period Mr. Thorpe was entirely precluded from taking any other situation; liable as he was to be called on at a day's notice to go out to Sierra Leone. Nothing could be more just, therefore, than that he should enjoy the same salary as if he had been in the actual execution of his office.
Mr. Abercrombyreprobated the delay which had taken place. If, in the interval, justice had been ill administered in Sierra Leone, the delay was criminal; if it had been well administered, the appointment of a Chief Justice was unnecessary. A more suspicious case never, in his opinion, came before parliament: and as an hon. friend below him (Mr. Dent) had given notice for an inquiry into the situation of the colony, he trusted that the Committee would not vote so large a sum as that required, until the inquiry had taken place.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that whatever might be thought of the propriety of an establishment like Sierra Leone, as it had for its object no less than the moral improvement of the coast of Africa, it became necessary to put it on as liberal a fooling as the other colonies of his Majesty. With respect to the particular appointment now complained of, he observed that 1,500 l. was considerably under the sums paid to the heads of Admiralty Jurisdictions in any other situation, which were 2,000 l. a year at least. The salary in this case was not only for a judge of the prize court, but for Chief Justice. It Was found extremely difficult to procure a person sufficiently qualified to accept the situation. An hon. and learned gent. (Mr. Stephen) who had been applied to could not procure any such person; and government found out last the gentleman appointed in a ju-

dicial situation in Upper Canada. When the appointment took place no delay in making out the charter was foreseen; but if was proper to remark that unless the business lay in a very narrow compass indeed, when it came before the Lord Chancellor it might-not be-easy for him in the midst of the multiplied business before him to give it a more early determination As to the amount of the salary, difficulty of procuring a person for the situation proved it was not too large.
Sir J. C. Hippesleyspoke of the insulabrity of the climate of Sierra. Leone, which he knew from his own experience Of 1,500 persons who were originally sent from this country to that colony, only 15 survived in the year 1788; and he him-self should have fallen a victim to the mate had he not taken a sudden departure.
Mr. Peelsaid, it did not follow that because the business of the Chief Justice was carried on in his absence, it was therefore unnecessary. With regard to the individual appointed, it would be very hard first to engage him and then to deduce his salary all the time he was detained in England. As to the magnitude of the sum, it would certainly be a great moral as well as a great political evil, if the who administered justice between man and man were not sufficiently independent above necessity.
Mr. Whitbreadwas sorry to thirds that the member for Yorkshire (Mr. Wilberforce) and the rest of those who had at: thieved so glorious a victory as the Abolition of the Slave Trade, were unable to prevent this establishment from being job, and from being a constant reproach to the country. In consequence of impositions, it was found necessary to transfer the management of the colony to government. Yet the same impositions seen to be continued. The argument he had heard from the hon. gent, who spoke last was like all the arguments which, during the lime he had been in parliament, he had constantly heard from ministers, in which the interest of the public was nothing and the interest of the individual every thing. Such an argument however did not give him satisfaction. It appeared, that Mr. Thorpe did not seem inclined to meet the climate of Sierra Leone Where was the necessity of removing this gentleman from Canada before every thing was ready for his departure to Sierra Leone A great deal had been said of judicial splendour; dignity, and so forth; but let the House

look at the rest of the colonies, where in many, of-them-the Chief Justice had not more than 500 l. In Canada the, salary was 1,100 l. why then 1,500 l. for Sierra Leone? There seemed many other extrayagant and: unnecessary appointments, as salaries of 150 l. and 100 l. a year. He was informed, that there were many persons in the colony, of characters by no means favourable. He thought it, therefore, advisable that an inquiry should be made into the manner in which the colony had been conducted; and till such inquiry, he thought, it would be proper to postpone he present grant.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdeclared, that he should be very happy to have this subject inquired into, and settled in such a manner as to prevent the annual discussions that took place upon it. Whatever might be the result of that inquiry, however, he could not but recommend to the Committee to adopt the present vote; for otherwise half the year must elapse before the communication of any diminution in the grant could reach the colony, to which period, and indeed until the return to this country of those persons whom the diminution would cause to return, the salaries of the different officers, &c. must, in justice be paid at the old rate. Of the good faith, as well as of the policy of maintaining the colony, be had no doubt. Many persons, Maroons and others, had taken refuge in the colony, and the expence of removing them, in the event of abolishing the colony, would be nearly equal to that of the colony itself. The necessity of appointing to the vice-admiralty courts, persons by whom justice would be administered, was obvious; and a small salary was not a sufficient inducement to any respectable individual to accept a situation of that nature. Whatever might be the result of the inquiry of his hon. friend, he saw no reason lot postponing the present grant.
Mr. Dentobserved, in explanation, that one of the objects which he, had in view in the intended inquiry was to give protection to the Maroons in their present situation. The report at present was, that they were treated like slaves.
Sir. J. Newportcompared the salary of the chief justice, of Sierra Leone with that of the chief justice of other colonies, in order to prove that the sum allowed was by much too large. He thought the grant should not be made until the investigation had taken place.
Mr. Stephentrusted that, when the subject came. to be discussed, the hon. gentlemen opposite would bring proofs of of those assertions, which, thrown out as they now were (unfairly, in his opinion), might make au unfavourable impression on the public mind. Of all the preposterous suppositions which he had ever heard, that of the Nova Scotia blacks, who formed the large mass of the population of Nova Scotia, being slaves, was the most extraordinary. There never was less cause, for imputing partiality to government, than in the appointment of Mr. Thorpe to the Chief Justiceship of Sierra Leone; an appointment which; was the single exception to the recommendation of the benevolent individuals who were the proprietors of that settlement before its transfer to government. The abolition of the Slave Trade had rendered it indispensable to establish a prize court on the; coast of Africa; and Sierra Leone was of course selected as the most proper place. For the purpose of economy it had been determined to combine the offices of chief justice and judge of the prize court. The noble, lord (Castlereagh) had requested him to find out, if possible, some person who was qualified for those situations, and who would accept them. It might be presumed that he had not been remiss in the inquiry. But the nature of the climate, the state of civilization, and other circumstances, formed such powerful objections, that among all those individuals in the profession, who had given an earnest of talent, he could not find one who was disposed to go to Sierra Leone. Nor was this surprising, when the difficulty of filling up the appointments of judges of he prize courts of the West Indies was considered, although those situations had salaries of 2,000 l. a-year attached to, although those who held them held them had the liberty of adding 2,000 l. more by fees, and although there was an extensive and civilized society. It was not until alter the disappointment he had experienced in his search, that Mr. Thorpe was appointed. He left it therefore to the Committee to determine how far govern could justly be charged with any undue motives in this appointment. Adverting to the greater question, respecting the colony itself, he trusted that a settlement like Sierra Leone, which formed the nucleus of African civilization would never be abandoned; he trusted that the country would be redeemed from

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the dishonourable imputation of casting off Africa, because it no, longer indulged in the abominable traffic of human beings.
Mr. Fullerthought that the fatality of the climate was a strong reason for entering into an inquiry as to the expediency of maintaining the settlement.
Mr. Wilberforceexpressed the highest satisfaction at finding that the subject was likely to undergo a thorough investigation. He wished the public to be satisfied that justice, humanity, and every other liberal consideration, conspired to render it necessary to apply a considerable sum, for many years to come, to the purposes of that colony. He denied that there had been any bad management in the early period of the existence of the Sierra Leone Company. The directors of the Company had every year shewn their accounts to their constituents, who expressed themselves perfectly satisfied, and from whom they always parted in good humour. The formation of colonies had always been found a matter of great difficulty, although frequently undertaken by men of the greatest talents. That of Sierra Leone had already been of the greatest benefit to Africa. If it was of service to Africa to abolish the Slave Trade, the establishment of the colony of Sierra Leone had materially contributed to that service, by affording an opportunity of observing more accurately the transactions connected with it; and of viewing whole districts depopulated by the civil wars stirred up by that shameful traffic. He repeated his joy that the affairs of the colony were to be investigated by a Committee of that House. They would see the necessity of doing something to compensate in some degree to Africa the evils which we had formerly occasioned her. He well knew, that a great and lamented friend of his (Mr. Pitt) had cherished intentions of the most beneficent nature towards Africa, and that it had been in his contemplation, whenever, the Slave Trade should be abolished propose to parliament the application considerable sum of money to the purpose of civilizing that unhappy quarter of the globe.
Mr. H Thorntonwould vote for the grant before the investigation, because he did not wish to inspire in the colony a distrust of the firmness of its establishment. He admitted that the climate was unhealthy; but not to the extent which had been represented. Certain it was that the number of the Maroons and Nova

Scotia blacks regularly increased. He confessed, that it had sometimes occurred to him that the appointment of a chief justice was scarcely necessary; but he was aware that this was a question on which legal men were much more competent to determine than himself.
Mr. Abercrombybegged to repeat his former question, whether the chief justices of the other colonies were resident ins them?
Mr. Whartonsaid he could not state distinctly whether all were, or not; but he was positive, that the greater number were, and he believed they all were.
Mr. Peelsaid, that all were resident but the one of Dominica.
The Resolution was then agreed to.

SURPLUS OF CONSOLIDATED FUND—OLD NAVAL STORES.
The House having resolved into a Committee of Ways and Means,
The Chancellor of the Exchequermoved,
"1. That towards making good the Supply granted to his Majesty, there be issued and applied the sum of 996, 927 l. 18 s. 4½. being the Surplus of the Consolidated. Fund remaining in the Exchequer for the disposition of parliament, upon the 50 day of April 1811. 2. That toward making good the supply granted to his Majesty for Naval Services, there applied the sum of 420,364 l., arisen, from the sale of old Naval and Victualling Stores." There was in the last year a surplus of 7,000,000 l. and odd thousands pounds, but it was a surplus produced by the concurrence of many circumstances: which would not be reckoned on in other years, a surplus of 600,000 l. having taken, place on the taxes alone. In consequence of this, he had been induced at that period to recommend the application of a certain portion to the expences of the current year; and he had even the satisfaction to state to the House that the actual produce exceeded the estimate by 1,353,000 l. He felt the greater satisfaction in stating this, as it afforded a practical refutation of reports which had gone abroad, calculated to give a gloomy view of the trade and finances of the country. The House would no doubt rejoice in this proof indeed, any proof were wanted, that there was such a vigour in the trade, and such a solidity and stamina in the revenue, that it was not a little, nor even a great thing that would be sufficient to destroy them The House had now before it a view of the

consequences of what he had recommended last year—that of meeting the expenses without recurring to any new tax. It would also be seen by reference to the produce for the last three years, that so far from declining, the country was evidently in a state of great prosperity. In 1809, the produce was 36,446,000 l; that of last year, upon which, as he had already stated; a considerable increase had occurred that could not be calculated upon in future, was 41,441,474 l. and that of the present year was 41,300,000 l. so that the difference between the present and the former year, was by no means so great as they had reason to expect, on considering the peculiar circumstances by which the former year was favoured. After such a statement, the House would see there was no reason for indulging that despondency which some people were inclined to entertain.
Mr. Bankescongratulated the House on the statement of his right hon. friend, and the proofs then before them of the prosperous condition of the finances; but he begged leave to observe, and to press upon their consideration, that though our resources were large and prosperous, it was necessary to exercise the greatest economy in their application. He wished that the corresponding sums of this last year's produce should be laid before the House, and was desirous to know whether the fines for the militia were included, which he understood amounted to two or three millions.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerread the corresponding sums, but said that he had no conception that the fines for the militia were so great as his hon. friend had represented. With respect to the question Whether those fines were included in the present statement? he observes that such as were paid into the Exchequer were certainly comprehended in it, but he could not say whether those which were paid into the Bank were considered part of the consolidated fund.
Mr. Franklandthought the amount of the fines could not be so great as had been stated.
Mr. H. Thorntonrecommended a strict adherence to economy, and expressed his apprehension that the increase was not really great as it appeared to be.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that economy should be undoubtedly a paramount object with that House; but it was also Bound to provide For the necessary
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expences of the government, and the former object should never be pursued so far as to exclude the latter from their consideration. The excess of the Consolidated Fund, which had exceeded the estimate of the year in which the taxes were paid out of it, afforded a ground for representing the increasing prosperity of the country. He remembered that in the former instance, when he recommended that application of the fund, he was charged with having taken a too sanguine view of the subject; but experience had proved that that view was not sanguine, and the increase already mentioned had truly justified his predictions. The produce of the Post Office itself, in the year, ending 1810, exceeded that of the former year by, he believed, 100,000 l.; and in the last year the excess was still greater. The Excise was also considerably increased, and there was every prospect of a flourishing revenue.
The Resolutions were then agreed to.

DWELLING HOUSE ROBBERY BILL.
Sir. S. Romillymoved the third reading of this Bill.
Mr. Secretary Rydersaid, that though he agreed in the general principles staled by his hon. and learned friend, he differed from him in the application of them to the present subject. The certainty of punishment should, be observed, but that certainty would not be facilitated by the Bill. This was not a question of practical, but of speculative humanity, for it did not profess to make the practice conformable to the theory, but the theory to the practice. It was urged, that prosecutions would be increased by lessening, the, punishment: but that he denied, as far, as his experience went; and if prosecutors, juries, judges, and witnesses were affected by such a circumstance, he did not see why it should not be supposed to have an influence upon offenders themselves The, terror of the law operated in the, best way that law could operate, namely, to prevent the commission of crimes, It had been said, that one object of the Bill was, to diminish the discretion of judges. He was sure, that no greater be on could be granted to them than such a step, if it could be done without materially injuring the country at large; but, in his opinion, the loss or limitation of their discretion would be attended with, the worst consequences. He agreed, however, in one thing with his hon. and learned friend.

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Sentence, he thought, ought not to be passed upon those who were not intended to be executed; and he was also inclined to think that the value for which an offender could be punished capitally, might be raised in proportion to the alteration of the value of money at the present day.
Mr. Wilberforcecould not agree that the Bill would have no practical effect. The law, as it stood at present, was calculated to introduce a sort of gambling into vice, in consequence of the uncertainly of punishment. He defended his hon. and learned friend from the imputation of intending to change the laws of his country; and maintained that his only object was to give the country a practical code. It had been said that laws should be severe; but when they were too much so the sympathies of the people were driven to the side of the criminal, and they were sent away rather shocked than reformed.
Sir J. Newportthought it was a great practical evil that juries should be exposed to perjury. He instanced several cases in which verdicts had been given contrary to evidence, for the purpose of avoiding the capital-parts of the charges, and hoped his hon. and learned friend would persevere in his intention.
Mr. Lockhartthought that the legislators of the present day should give some credit to the wisdom of our ancestors, who had made and acted upon the law as it now stood. He doubted whether crimes were numerically increased, but he was certain their depth of dye was not; and this he attributed to the calculations which culprits made between the crimes which were punished capitally, and those which were not. He objected to venturing on an unknown sea, and repealing a law which had the sanction of antiquity. If he did agree to it, it should be only as an experiment for one or two years, but even that he feared would have a tendency to unsettle the minds of the people.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid he had not hitherto taken any part in these discussions, because he thought other gentlemen more competent to deliver their opinions than he could be; but he could not help now offering a few words to the consideration of the House. He was astonished at the array of lawyers that always opposed his hon. and learned friend; and he was no less astonished at hearing his hon. and learned friend's opinions termed theoretical; and he was as much astonished at

the ingenious speech of his hon. friend (Mr. Frankland), who certainly said all that could be-said against the Bill; and though he did not convince, at least succeeded in dazzling in some parts, and puzzling in others. Did the lawyers recollect, that his hon. and learned friend, in following up his great and benevolent plan, had pursued the highest law opinions of antiquity, many of whom concurred in the want of an amendment in our criminal laws? As for what had been said of reconciling theory to practice, it would indeed be a most beneficial thing could they succeed in reconciling the theory and practice of the law. It was imputed to his hon. and learned friend that he had taken up the opinion of Mr. Paley. This was not the case; for on the contrary he had combated successfully the doctrine laid down by that eminent writer on this subject. But his opinions proceeded from the best of sources, and from the wisdom of his own excellent mind, matured by experience, and his attendance on the criminal courts. He was certain, whatever might be the fate of this motion, to-night, that these ameliorations would sooner or later be adopted as the law of the land. As for the doctrine of the hon. and learned gent, opposite, that the perjury of witnesses and juries was humane, and improved the general morals, he could not agree with him; and noticed two cases in which such perjuries occurred; the one, where a person who stole six 10 l. notes was found guilty of stealing to the amount of 39 s.; and the other, where the criminal was acquitted for stealing money, oh the supposition that it might all be bad! Gentlemen on the other side went always on the presumption that these laws were enacted wisely, and on due consideration; but did they not recollect how little capital punishments were thought of before this age of civilization? If a member of parliament was wronged in any way, it was only to move to have the sledge-hammer of the law laid upon the offence; and he dared say they remembered the story of the Bill, making it a capital felony in a Jew to look down an area; which was amended by the introduction of the words, "or other," after the word Jew, so that any Jew, or other person, might be hanged for that offence. The hon. and learned gentlemen opposite seemed afraid lest any amelioration of the law, even for a few years, should unsettle the minds of criminals, and that they could not return

with a good grace to their capital punishments. This reminded him of Pig and Kill Pig, about the beginning of the American war—"Would you be cut and killed a little."—After noticing some other arguments, the hon. gentleman concluded by saying, that the public opinion on the subject of this Bill might be seen from the rise of his hon. and learned friend, even from the high eminence on which he formerly stood, in public estimation. His finding time from his severe avocations to pursue this excellent and beneficent plan, after all the political feuds of this day were forgotten, would transmit his name with honour to posterity as the benefactor of his country. Some men, by their virtuous exertions, acquired fame after their death, but of his hon. and learned friend his country might in his life time say—"Presenti tibi largimur honores."
The Attorney Generalthought it very natural that many lawyers should come forward upon a question materially connected with their profession. With respect to the Bill itself, he believed it would have a tendency to increase and not to lessen crimes; for it would remove the terror of death which operated most strongly upon the most hardened offenders. They would always make a distinction between the possibility of escaping death and the certainty that they could not be punished by it. As to passing sentence on those not intended to be executed, an hon. and learned friend of his had described on a former night its effect on a young woman; from whence he (the Attorney General) would infer that it might operate in many cases to deter the individuals from future offences. As to the objection of the unwillingness of prosecutors to come forward, it applied equally to the whole of the criminal law. He thought the opinions of the Recorder and Common Serjeant entitled to considerable weight and was somewhat surprised that his hon. and learned friend did not endeavour to procure the opinion of the Judges on a matter of such importance.
Mr. Marryattexpressed himself strongly in favour of the measure. The advantage of the milder system of criminal law was evident from the effect which it had produced in a neighbouring country. In the year 1802 he was in Amsterdam, and he learned, that for many years but two instances of capital punishment had occurred there. Imprisonment and hard labour were substituted for capital punishment;
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and it appeared that the most beneficial consequences had resulted from it. The House had in a recent instance a practical proof of the bad consequences arising from the law as it at present stood. He alluded to the case of the unfortunate man lately executed at Gloucester, in consequence of the reprieve having been mis-directed. This could not have occurred, if the contemplated alteration in the law bad taken place. The opinions of that great moralist Dr. Johnson, as well as of other eminent men, were in favour of the principle of these Bills, which he would most heartily support.
Mr. Wynnsupported the Bill. He expressed himself decidedly hostile to the attaching the punishment of death to offences of a comparatively trifling nature. Much practical ill had arisen from the criminal law, as at present constituted, by occasioning those numerous instances of perjury which every gentleman must be aware of.
The House divided, when there appeared: For the 3d reading, 50; Against it, 39. Majority 11.
The Navigable River Robbery Bill, the Privately Stealing Bill, and the English and Irish Bleaching Ground Robbery Bill, were then read a third time, and also passed.

PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RELATING TO PORTUGAL.
Marquis Wellesleypresented a Message from his royal highness the Prince Regent, representing the distresses which in a part of the inhabitants of Portugal were plunged by the savage barbarities exercised against them by the French army in its retreat, and expressing a desire than heir lordships' House would concur in enabling him to afford the sufferers speedy and effectual relief.—[For the Message see the proceedings of the House of Commons.] The marquis then moved, that his royal highness's Message be taken into consideration to-morrow, and that the lords be summoned.—Ordered.

STATE OF THE KING'S HEALTH.
Earl Grosvenorrose and asked, whether it was the intention of ministers to lay before the House a copy of the Report of her Majesty's council, respecting the state of the King's health?
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, that the Report alluded to by the noble earl was to be found in the records of the Privy Council, and that if the noble earl was desirous to have it before the House, it was competent for him, or any noble lord, to move for its production.
The Earl of Grosvenorsaid, he should make a motion to that effect to-morrow.

MILITIA ENLISTMENT BILL.
On the order of the day being read for the committal of the Militia Enlistment Bill,
The Earl of Liverpoolbriefly observed upon the nature of the Bill, the object of which was to derive a constant supply from the Militia for the regular army, without interfering with the ordinary recruiting service. The proportion of the Militia to be allowed annually to enlist amounted to about one-eighth, but it was by no means imperative on the government to take the whole amount of this proportion, but, in the exercise of a sound discretion, only such a part of it as might be necessary in aid of the ordinary recruiting to supply the waste in the army. The militia was to be reduced to its old number, to keep up which, enlistment was to be resorted to, including a proportion of boys from 14 to 17. He was anxious that the ballot should not be struck out of the statute-book, but at the same time it was
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desirable that it should be resorted to as little as possible. The provision in former bills burdening the counties with the support of the families of enlisted men, and substitutes, was in this Bill left out, it being deemed unreasonable, that where men were not soldiers by compulsion, as in the case of balloted men, the counties should be burdened with the support of their families. The burden would also be lessened by the proposed measure, of enlisting a proportion of boys.
The Earl of Rosslynagreed in the propriety of the regulation as to the families of enlisted men and substitutes, but wholly differed as to the expediency of the mode proposed by the Bill of supplying the wastes in the army. His lordship entered, into a variety of details, for the purpose of shewing that the Bill, even in the view of those who proposed it, could not answer its intended purpose. The waste in the army, during the years 1808, 9, and 10, had been at the rate of 21,000 men each year, the utmost number to be produced by this Bill, and by the intended bill of a similar nature for Ireland, was 10,000 men, whilst the ordinary recruiting, it appeared by the returns of last year, did not produce more than 9,000 men. Thus, then, the whole number to be produced was 19,000, and the waste was 21,000; so that there would be an annual deficiency of 2,000 men. The operation of the Bill, likewise, would materially interfere with the ordinary recruiting. The average sum given for a substitute in the Militia was 50 l. and how could it be expected, with these high bounties in the market, that the ordinary recruiting could be effective, with a bounty of 16 guineas? The noble earl warmly panegyrised Mr. Windham's plan, which increased the advantages of the service, whilst it left the market for recruiting without competition. By this, plan, in the first half year of its operation, 11,000 men were produced, and there was every reason to believe, that had it been allowed a longer existence, it would have produced recruits in a much larger proportion.
Viscount Sidmouthacknowledged he only gave his support to the present measure upon a belief of its indispensible necessity. All were agreed as to the necessity of keeping up our army, and he saw no other effective means of doing so except by the present measure. He agreed in the wisdom of Mr. Windham plan; but denied that it had produced the

numbers stated by his noble friend, there having been, at the time alluded to, an intimation given to render effective the incomplete second battalions; in consequence of which, there were 1,200 recruiting parties out in the country, instead of 500, and by which a much larger number of men than usual had been produced. He agreed, however, that if Mr. Windham's plan had been allowed to operate, there was every probability that it would have operated very favourably to the recruning service, and decidedly objected to the mode now adopted, of giving an option of limited service, or service for life, conceiving that those, mixed terms of service had an unfavourable effect upon the army. Under existing circumstances, he conceived the present to be the only measure that could be adopted, nor could he consent to estimate the waste in the army at 21,000 men. In 1808 there was a great loss of men in the north of Spain, and in 1809 in the Walcheren expedition, the effects of which continued to operate in 1810, all contributing to increase the waste in the army; but there was no reason to expect the operation of similar circumstances again; and therefore 19,000 men, the estimated produce of this measure, combined with the ordinary recruiting, might be considered fully sufficient, or more than sufficient, to supply the annual waste in the army.
Lord Hollandcould not but regret to see the Militia so broken in upon as it must be by the present Bill; but his chief objection was to the clause which went to convert it from a temporary into a permanent measure. The noble, lord took occasion, highly to extol Mr. Windham's plan which had exceeded in its operation the sanguine expectation of his friends: but the present measure would totally destroy all the benefits which that Salutary plan was calculated to produce, By making it perpetual, instead of temporary, it was proceeding upon principles diametrically opposite to those which he had ever maintained respecting matters of that nature; and so far, therefore, it must have his most decided negative.
The Earl of Westmorelanddefended the Bill, and observed, that the ballot was not to operate till the year 1813, and that, therefore, the competition in the market between the bounty substitutes, and the bounty in ordinary recruiting, could, in the mean time, exist.
The Earl of Hardwickeobserved, with
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respect to leaving out the provision for the families of enlisted men and substitutes, that, it would not practically make much difference, as their families must still be provided for as paupers. He thought it would be better to enact, that provision should be made for the families of those who had not received a higher bounty than twelve guineas.
The House then went into the committee on the Bill. The Report was received, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
Viscount Sidmouthtook that opportunity of stating, that the average waste of the army in time of peace was between 12,000 and 13,000, inclusive of the foreign service. The average waste during times of active warfare was 23,000, so that the 10,000 men which was to be supplied from the militias of England, Scotland, and Ireland, would cover the difference of the waste of the army in time of peace and war.