Sitting of 1 February 1810

STAMPS ON BANKERS' CHECKS.
Mr. Gilesrose, pursuant to notice, to submit a motion to the House, for leave to bring in a bill to amend the 48th of the King. In apportioning the duties upon stamps on bills of exchange, the fair principle had ever been, that the rate of the stamp should vary according to the amount of the bill. All those bills were, however, exempted from this equitable principle, which were drawn upon a banker ten miles distant from the residence of the drawer—a former act had provided that a penalty of 20 l. should be inflicted upon any person drawing a draft upon his banker at that distance without a receipt. He admitted this act had been evaded, and that many persons had drawn drafts without stamps upon their bankers who did not live within 100 miles of their place of residence. Last year, however, at a very late period of the session his right hon. friend had introduced the bill which he now proposed to amend; it was speedily passed into a law, at a time when the attendance of members was thin; and after the termination of the session, people were taken by surprise, in the month of August, on discovering that they could no longer draw a check upon their banker unless it was upon a stamp. In that bill, his right hon. friend had imposed the same duty as in the original bill. But a material alteration had been made in the penalty, for instead of 20 l. as in the former it was 200 l.; the penalty he thought rather excessive, and the restriction to ten miles rather circumscribed. He was sure that in point of revenue this regulation would not be at all productive, because, in the first place, it would be so very easily evaded—or he should rather say, avoided; a man could so easily transfer his cash from a banker without the distance to one within the limits of ten miles. So far he felt it necessary to say as to produce; then as to inconvenience, he was persuaded it would be found extremely severe. Gentlemen could not, at all times, get stamps in the country; besides a man regularly residing within the due limits, should he take a ride five miles from his house, and there have occasion to draw on his banker, he must draw upon a stamp, or otherwise fall within the penalty. Another evil consequence that resulted from this act, was, that of increasing to an enormous amount the number of country
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banks. He knew of a small circle of country, within which no less than ten of those banks had lately sprung up; it tended, of consequence, to increase the issue of country bank notes. As to the inconveniences resulting from the operation of the act, he instanced the case of a person who lately removed his money from his banker in London to a bank at Hertford; his dealings were extensive, and there was scarce a market he frequented in which he was not at more than ten miles distance from his bank. The only feasible object it could pretend to have in view, was the prevention of frauds; but even in this view he did not think it would be successful. The most prominent objection, however, seemed to him to be that of the limitation of distance to ten miles. He thought it would be wiser to regulate this restriction by the analogy of the privilege of members of that House to frank their letters. This privilege extended to forty miles distance from the place dated from. He should propose, therefore, that the distance of the residence of the drawer from the bank drawn upon, should amount to upwards of forty miles, to subject such person to the penalty in case he did not make his draft upon a stamp. The other regulations which he intended to introduce would come before the House in the course of the progress of the bill, if the House would allow him to bring it in. He then concluded by moving, For leave to bring in a bill to regulate and amend the 48th of the king.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he did not rise to object to the motion of his hon. friend, as he was not yet prepared to say, what had been the revenue produced under the operation of the 48th of the king. He was, however, apprehensive, that if the limitation of distance should be extended to 40 miles, it would, instead of amending the act, have the effect of abolishing the tax altogether. He thought it better for the House to wait until the statement of the produce revenue derived under the act should be before them. It was a tax of that nature which more particularly affected themselves, and therefore they should be cautious not to evince any impatience to remove it. His hon. friend had laboured under a mistake in confounding the introduction of the bill with the passing of it; it had been passed in a late period of that session, but not introduced at a late one.
The motion was then agreed to

EXPEDITION TO THE SCHELDT.—EXCLU- SION OF STRANGERS.
Mr. Yorkerose to put a question to a noble lord opposite. He wished to know if that noble lord intended to move the next day to go into a Committee upon the Expedition to the Scheldt.
Lord Porchesterreplied in the affirmative.
Mr. Yorkethen said, that he took that opportunity of giving notice, that in case that Inquiry should be gone into the next day he would proceed to enforce the standing order of the House, for the exclusion of strangers. This he did not from any wish to keep their proceedings from publicity in due time, but with a view to guard against the possibility of any misrepresentation or misunderstanding out of doors before the Minutes should be published, a precaution that appeared to him necessary to be taken before they proceeded to an Inquiry to be carried on in the manner in which they had determined that important investigation should be conducted.

BULLION AND BANK NOTES.
Mr. Hornerpursuant to notice rose to move for a variety of accounts and returns respecting the present state of the circulating medium, and the bullion trade. He expressed a decided opinion, that it was necessary for the House to make an Inquiry into the causes of the present high price of bullion, and the consequent effect upon the value of the paper currency, not only on account of the real importance of the subject, but in consequence of the great misconceptions which too generally prevailed respecting the causes of the actual situation of the country with reference to this subject. The most effectual mode of investigating this highly interesting question would be by a Select Committee, and it was therefore his intention on an early day to move for such a Committee. But it would be not only convenient but indispensable, in the first instance, to obtain all such information on the whole of the subject, as papers might afford; which information could afterwards be referred to the Committee. He would not adopt the opinion which prevailed among some people, that the high price of gold, and the depreciation of paper, (for depreciation in a certain sense it was) were to be ascribed to the number of country banks; for the better their nature and operation were understood, it would the more clearly appear, that they formed an essential part
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of our system of credit and currency. Nor was he prepared at once to adopt another conclusion which had been urged in various forms before the public, that the explanation of the cause of the present evils must be referred wholly to an undue issue of notes by the Bank of England: for, though an excess in the market price of gold above its mint price, would be one certain consequence of such an undue issue, yet that same excess might originate from other causes, or be enhanced by other circumstances. He did not presume as yet to form a clear or confident conclusion upon the subject; it was to arrive at a correct opinion that he wished the House to call for the information and undertake the Inquiry he meant to propose. His present conjecture was, that the high price of gold might be produced partly by a larger circulation of Bank of England paper than was necessary, and partly by the new circumstances in which the foreign trade of this country was placed; by which a continual demand for bullion was produced, not merely to discharge the balance of trade as in the ordinary state of things, but for the purpose of carrying on some of the most important branches of our commerce; such as she purchase of naval stores from the Baltic, and grain from countries under the controul and dominion of the enemy. He believed the former cause to operate, because the market price of gold had been higher than the mint price almost ever since the restriction of bank payments in 1797; and he suspected the influence of the latter from this circumstance, that there was not merely a nominal depreciation of paper as compared with bullion, but a real demand for bullion itself all over the country. The state of the exchange was no doubt in some degree the cause of this demand for bullion; but, perhaps, it was in some degree also the effect of that transfer of bullion from this country, which was created by the necessities of trade and the new system of commercial warfare. But all this was matter for Inquiry. What remedy ought to be provided, would, of course, turn upon what should be ascertained to be the nature and cause of the evil. If it consisted in an excessive issue of paper by the Bank of England, the remedy would be in the hands of parliament, and had been already resorted to in the case of the misconduct of the Bank of Ireland. If the real cause of the high price of gold

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was the demand for it, as an article of trade or a medium for carrying on our trade, there was no other cure for that but an adequate supply; and it was one of the many important considerations which arose out of the present situation of the colonies of Spain in the new world, how their immense resources of precious metals might best be rendered available for our accommodation. Those colonies, independently of the Brazils, might easily furnish above the value of nine millions sterling annually of the precious metals. The mines of Mexico were said to produce annually about 25 millions of dollars; those of Peru 15 millions, and it was thought that if the mines of Peru were better worked they would prove infinitely more abundant in the production of bullion than even those of Mexico. When the state of our circulating medium came to be inquired into in the Committee, there were several peculiarities which had been too long overlooked, especially the depreciation of our silver coin, which it would be necessary in order to a clear understanding of the subject particularly to attend to. It was quite unnecessary for him to state to the House that silver still continued according to the laws of our mint, the standard measure of all commercial value. Nothing could be more obvious then than the necessity, in an inquiry concerning the state of the circulating medium generally, of previously ascertaining any and what precise fluctuations may have taken place in the value of that metal, to which the whole is referable as a permanent standard. Another fact also, that would occupy necessarily much of the attention of the Committee, was the alteration that had taken place in the relative value of gold and silver, from that fixed by the regulations of the mint. In the time of Edw. 1, the ratio of silver to gold was as 1 to 9: at a much later period as 1 to 15; subsequently again as 1 to 15 and a very small fraction; but the ratio or proportion at present was 1 to 15½. From documents which he had seen, and upon the accuracy of which he had every reason to rely, it appeared that for more than fifty years back, the supply of bullion gold and silver from the mines of America had not increased very much; and that the increase of the latter was in a much greater degree than that of the former. The hon. gent. concluded by moving "That there be laid before this House—1.An Account of the quantity of gold and silver
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exported from the different ports of the United Kingdom to foreign parts in each of the last ten years, to the 1st of February 1810, distinguishing gold and silver, distinguishing bullion, wrought plate, and coin, and distinguishing the ports and places from and to which the said exportation were made.—2. An Account of the quantity of gold and silver imported into the United Kingdom in each of the last ten years to the 1st of February 1810, distinguishing gold and silver, distinguishing bullion, wrought plate and coin, and distinguishing, as far as the same may be done, the foreign parts from which the said importations were made.—3. An Account of the export and import of gold and silver from and to Ireland, from the year 1803 to the 5th of January 1810; distinguishing gold and silver, and distinguishing bullion, wrought plate and coin.—4. An Account of the number of licences for the issue of promissory notes payable on demand, which were granted by, or by authority of, the Commissioners of Stamps, for the year ending the 10th of October 1809.—5. An Account of the quantity of bullion or coin which has been seized in the two years ending the 1st of February 1810, under the authority of the Statutes which regulate the exportation of bullion and coin.—6. An Account of all dollars issued by the Bank of England to the latest period to which the same can be made up—7. An Account of the amount of the Notes of the Governor and Company of the Bank of England in circulation on the 7th and 12th days of each month, from December 1808 to the 12th of January 1810, inclusive; distinguishing the Bank Post Bills, and distinguishing the amount of Notes under the value of live pounds.—8. An Account of the quantity of gold and silver exported by the East India Company to China and the East Indies, whether on account of the Company or of private persons, from the year 1788 to the latest period to which the same can be made up; distinguishing the export to China, and bullion from coin."
Mr. Davies Giddythought that this was a subject which, like many others, had been industriously wrapped up in a sort of mystery that did net belong to it. If it was looked at through the plain medium of common sense and reason, it would appear by no means the involved and abstruse question it was generally thought to be. The fact appeared to him to be sim-

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ply this, that the price of gold and silver, like the price of any other commodity, was regulated by the demand for it. If any substitute could be found that could answer the required purpose, as well as the commodity so much sought for, and that substitute could be had at a much cheaper rate, it would follow, by necessary consequence, that the commodity itself could not continue to be in such demand, and that its price would proportionally decrease. He would illustrate to the House his meaning—if the copper used in sheathing both our military and mercantile navy should be postponed, by the preference given to some other cheaper and as durable substance, and our shipping should be sheathed with that substance, there would be, of course, such a rush of copper into the market, as to occasion a very great reduction of price and general circulation of that metal. He differed from the hon. gent. who so ably introduced this subject in one point, and that was with respect to the country banks. He could not think them of such service to the credit and commerce of the country as that gentleman seemed to think them. With respect to the great circulation of paper money however, he thought that it materially contributed to throw the specie into the market. But so long as the tax gatherers should continue to receive paper money at par, there would be no great danger of any depreciation of its value from what was called an over issue. He was not prepared then to go fully into the question, but should content himself with adding that in his opinion it was a subject well worth the most serious attention of that House.
Mr. G. Johnstonesaid he could not but compliment what he might call the philosophical speech of the hon. mover. He thought the subject deserved to be maturely weighed, and that every effort should be made to trace the present unfortunate state of the currency to its true cause; which he believed to be the excess of paper issues.
Mr. M. Dorrien Mugensthought it in the first instance necessary, that the House should with all convenient dispatch possess itself of every possible information upon this very important subject. He had not hastily formed his opinions upon it, but, however confident he might feel in the justice of these opinions then, he should defer stating them till the House should be better enabled to come to some conclusion. He acknowledged, that if it were his in-
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tention at that time to go into detail, he believed he should be led to take a very different view of the paper currency of the country, and its consequences, from that which others who preceded him seemed disposed to take. He hoped the motion of the hon. gent. would be acceded to, as the question appeared to him to be of such pressing interest and great magnitude, that it could not be too rally entered into.
Mr. Pattesonapproved of the motion, and vindicated the country bankers from the objections made to them by an hon. gent. (Mr. Davies Giddy.) He thought them a source of great commercial convenience in as much as their own notes they always changed for bank of England notes, and it was not to be supposed that they could have got them without a due equivalent.
Mr. H. Thorntonsaid, the most important fact to ascertain was, what was the real price of bullion. The number of notes of the bank of England in circulation might vary; so might country bank notes; the amount of the paper in circulation, therefore, could not enable the House to form an accurate judgment upon the subject; the price of gold alone was that to which the circulation of the country ought to conform. The bank of England paper, however, was that to which parliament should most particularly attend; for the directors of the bank of England might, by reducing the value of their paper, compel the country banks to do so likewise. It had been said, this evil had a natural tendency to correct itself, but it had not yet corrected itself. It was well known that nobody could get gold from the bank of England.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not rise to oppose the motion that had been made With so much ability. He would, however, venture to suggest his difference of opinion, with respect to one or two points. First, he confessed he could not understand, how the reduction of the bank of England paper could affect the price of bullion. He thought, that they must consider gold as an article of trade; and if a guinea, that is, the quantity of gold coined into a guinea was worth, at Hamburgh, more than 21 shillings, no reduction of their home circulation of paper currency could affect the rate or the value of bullion in the foreign market, which rate or Value was to be ascribed to other causes. They were to look to the extent of the wars so

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long carried on, which could not be carried on without money, for the decrease of bullion in this country and its consequent augmentation of price. The additional demand for bullion; the considerable interruption in the supply of bullion, in consequence of so long a war with Spain; the quantity that might be supposed to be hid and buried, in consequence of the alarms, real or unfounded, arising from the critical circumstances of the times,—could all this be said to be owing to the increased circulation of paper? An hon. gent. had furnished them with an illustration; but with what view? The substitution of something else for copper in sheathing shipping would throw that copper into the market, certainly; but would it not cheapen that copper? Whereas, in the case of the paper currency, the paper was put as a substitute for gold; but the gold had not lessened in price, it had increased, so that he could not see the analogy, for the paper was to the gold as the supposed substitute to the copper. He, however, threw out these suggestions with great diffidence, as he was aware that he was not as well informed on the question as he hoped yet to be, when the various papers were before the House. He, therefore, should reserve to himself the right of retracting any opinion upon this subject, which more knowledge and maturer deliberation might induce him to change.
Mr. Marryattagreed with the right hon. gent. that the quantity of paper money in circulation had not occasioned the scarcity in bullion so justly complained of; but at the same time, he could not admit, that bullion had increased in value all over the world in the same proportion as it had done here. All the evidence which by acceding to the motion would be laid on the table, he was satisfied would throw no light on the subject; and the question would be found at last wholly to depend on the difference in the rate of exchange against us in the different markets, being from 20 to 35 per cent. Every person who could carry a guinea over to the continent, would receive 28 s. in return, and all the regulations the House might adopt would not be sufficient to bring one back. All the evil, he was satisfied, was to be traced to the indiscriminate use of licenses, by which all the staple commodities of France and her allies were brought to this country in return for bullion and specie. The influx of these commodities turned the rate of exchange against us to the
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enormous degree already mentioned. The great importation of naval stores, too, for government, all of which must be paid for in specie, had contributed greatly to this end; all was to be traced to the destructive practice of licenses. If this system were done away, things would be turned speedily into their old channel.
Mr. Baringthought the papers moved for might be of some service in correcting theories of the different gentlemen, which, in his opinion, were radically wrong. He did not, however, say, that the papers themselves would be sufficient to enable the gentlemen to form a fair judgment on the subject. The difficulty, he suspected, would be found to be in the state of the trade of the country. Undoubtedly, a paper circulation did expose the country to have the rate of exchange turned against her whenever the trade was against her. In sir W. Temple's time, when this country wished to grant a subsidy to the bishop of Munster, it was found impossible to do so, because we could not send the coin in which it was to be raised. This could not affect our paper; but if in the present change of circumstances it were resolved to make an exertion, we must send our paper abroad for the purpose of raising the money, this must immediately produce a depreciation. A guinea, at this moment, brought 26 s. or 27 s. and a pound brought only 19 livres French, whereas it used formerly to be worth 24 livres. Much as he disliked the trade by licenses, he could not attach to them the whole cause of the depreciation on the Foreign exchange, because these licences were for imports as well as exports. We had, however, during the last year, immense imports of naval stores from the Baltic, the trade of the former year having been interrupted, and this year the imports were probably equal to the consumption of two or three years. All this must be paid for in specie. Formerly these imports were made in our own ships; on the present occasion, foreign vessels had been employed. The expence of freightage consequently must also be paid in specie, and on a moderate computation could not be reckoned at less than 1½ million. What was formerly obtained for one million might now be fairly estimated at 200,000 l. more; and where a foreign merchant formerly drew for 100 l. he now drew for 120 l. We now received no bullion as we were formerly, accustomed to do from the Brazils, but rather sent bullion thither.

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The present system of commerce tended to deteriorate our rate of exchange. Every encouragement was given to the importation of cotton wool from Brazil rather than from America, although the former must be paid for in specie, while the latter had been, and still might be obtained by giving our own manufactures in exchange. The same was also the case with respect to foreign shipping employed in this trade, the freight of which must likewise be paid in bullion. These, he was satisfied, were the causes of the rate of exchange being so immensely against this country, and there was not a merchant of any experience who might be called before the committee, who would not confirm what he had stated.—The Motions were then agreed to.

THANKS TO LORD WELLINGTON AND THE ARMY AT TALAVERA.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in rising to move the Thanks of the House to lord Wellington and the officers and soldiers under his command, for the skill and valour, so eminently displayed in the battle of Talavera, could not refrain from expressing painful regret at the symptoms of opposition which were incidentally manifested in that House, and which had previously been manifested elsewhere, He was the more grieved at this opposition, because he thought it could not he denied that the action for which he was about to move their thanks, was one of the most splendid that had ever graced or distinguished our military annals, that had ever shed lustre upon the British arms. Whether they considered the numbers, the bravery, or the discipline of the enemy, the more would they be inclined to think highly of that consummate skill and conduct, and that invincible intrepidity which obtained a victory over them. It was not a victory such as they saw gained by the French over the raw levies of unarmed Spanish peasants, but a victory over the veterans of France—men bred to war, inured to hardships—accustomed to conquer, and led by the most able generals of that country. At the present crisis, too, he hoped gentlemen would consider the necessity of establishing and maintaining the honour, encouraging the spirit and rewarding the services of our gallant army and its commander. When he reflected how desirable it was to cherish the military spirit, by bestowing on ability and valour the due meed and reward, he could not help again looking
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for an unanimous vote on this occasion. Gentlemen, whoever they were, that might have intended to oppose this motion, would, he trusted, well weigh the reasons of their opposition, before they suffered themselves to be led into it. He intreated of them to examine their own minds, and see if they were not actuated, more or less, by party considerations, and not by feelings which should induce them to withhold their approbation from such distinguished merits of the soldier and the commander. He earnestly begged of gentlemen seriously to consider this; and so extremely anxious was he to remove out of the way every disputable matter and question which could occur, that he should carefully abstain from every thing that in his view of the subject, could, by possibility, lead to any difference of opinion. With this view he should abstain from all mention of the general plan and conduct of the campaign, as well as from every thing else connected with it likely to give rise to difference, and should bring nothing within the view of the House, but the battle of Talavera itself. He should look at it with a view solely to the consideration of the ability of the general, matched only by the gallantry of the soldier, and of the gallantry of the soldier to be equalled only by the skill, ability, and enterprize of the general. He begged it, however, to be understood, that he did not give up the vindication of the whole campaign. He should be ready to assert the merits of it, whenever called on to do so; and to maintain not only the policy of its plan and execution, but its actual utility to the general interests of the Spanish people. At present, therefore, he should only generally state the grounds on which he conceived our brave army entitled to the thanks of the House, and he would perhaps have to beg the indulgence of the House to reply to such objections as should be made. The splendid service done at Talavera was so great and so fresh in the recollection of the House, that it was unnecessary for him to go into particulars; and he should consequently confine himself to a very few facts. Lord Wellington, after his return from the north of Portugal whence he had so gallantly expelled the French under Soult, proceeded to and arrived on the Tagus on the 12th of June. Here he halted till the 27th of the same month, and then broke up from Abrantes to Plasencia. On

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his march, he was joined by Cuesta, with whom he settled a combined plan of operations in order to attack Victor, drive him beyond the Alberche, and defend the south of Spain. Connected, with this, a simultaneous movement on Madrid was to be made by Venegas and the army under his command. This movement, however, was not made. On the 27th, the French began the attack on the division under gen. Hill, posted upon a height. They were partially successful at first, but the manner in which they were immediately repulsed, and the position regained at the point of the bayonet, was fresh in the memory of everyone, and required no eulogy from him.— On the 28th, the attack was renewed on the whole British line, and was met with equal steadiness and gallantry. Never was there a more glorious display of valour and skill than that by which an army of double their numbers was repulsed by our brave troops, and a splendid victory was obtained; a victory so decisive, so glorious, that there could not, by possibility, be a difference of opinion upon it in this country, in Spain, in Portugal, or even in France. He called, then, on the House to reward with its highest honours, this brilliant achievement, and he particularly called on a right hon. gent. whom he did not then see in his place (Mr. Windham,) to exert all his eloquence, to procure an unanimous vote on this occasion, as he had done on that of the battle of Maida, which Talavera so nearly resembled. The right hon. gent. in his eloquent speech on that occasion, told them, that their thanks were justly due and ought to be given for the invaluable acquisition of military fame and glory on that memorable day, and not to be regulated by any consideration for the attainment of ulterior objects. He was not able to excite a similar feeling by any thing he could say; but he again called on the right hon. gent. to do now what he had then done, and use his persuasive powers in obtaining an unanimous vote for Talavera, as he had for Maida, where the glory and the result were the same. Every splendour of that day was renewed and repeated at Talavera; and the same applause of the House was due to both. He would trespass no farther, but conclude by moving, "That the Thanks of this House be given to lord viscount Wellington for the distinguished ability displayed by him on the 27th
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and 28th of July last, in the glorious battle of Talavera, which terminated in the signal defeat of the forces of the enemy."
Lord Miltonsaid that though he entertained a high opinion of the gallantry of lord Wellington, and notwithstanding this was called a glorious victory, he felt him-felt under the necessity of proposing an amendment to the motion that had just been made. He could not consider the battle of Talavera as an isolated question, but as connected with other important topics, and the general policy and conduct of the campaign. It was not his wish to anticipate future debates, by entering into detail—and the more particularly, because he felt his incompetence to form an opinion on military topics; yet he could form an opinion, in some measure, from the event of the campaign. No one felt more strongly than he did the services, or was inclined to bestow higher praise on the valour of our troops; and he also agreed with the right hon. gent. on the necessity of encouraging their military spirit by every incitement that the approbation of that House or the gratitude of the country could supply. But he did not think this was the way to do it. They had got into the habit of voting thanks on all occasions, and it was now almost an insult not to vote them. From their frequency their Votes of Thanks lost their value, and ceased to be any longer an honour or a reward. When he looked to the result of the campaign, he saw that it was not attended with advantages, but on the contrary was highly disastrous to the country. He must take into his consideration, before he voted thanks, how it was that sir Arthur Wellesley found himself compelled to fight the enemy: it was not sufficient to say, that he got out of danger with great skill, He should have the same ability in avoiding it. What thanks would the House bestow on an admiral, who first ran his fleet among rocks and shoals, and then evinced great skill and ability in getting them off again? Yet, the case of sir Arthur Wellesley was precisely similar, he had imprudently brought his army into a critical situation —he was forced to give battle. He was attacked by the enemy; and while, in the general orders, it was styled a decisive victory, followed by a precipitate retreat, it appeared from our general's own dispatches, that the enemy retired in good order beyond the Alberche. What could his Majesty's ministers have meant by blazoning that battle in such terms of

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triumph and exultation; as the dispatches of the general by no means warranted? By these Votes of Thanks, almost all administrations wished a lustre to be reflected on themselves. He did not say this was the case at present, but he had formerly seen it so. It was painful to him to say much against what he was not willing to call a victory; but yet was ready to acknowledge was highly glorious to the troops, and to the skill of the commander, on the day of action. But he could not consent to a Vote of Thanks for bravery, displayed merely in the day of battle. He had voted for the thanks on account of the battle of Vimeira; but were that vote again to give, as explained and illustrated by the battle of Talavera, he should pause before he would give it in the same way. The ambition of sir Arthur Wellesley was conspicuous in both: he seemed to have fought merely for a peerage, certainly more with such a view than was consistent with the conduct of a good and prudent commander. When they were told to consider the question as an isolated one, did the right hon. gent. mean to ask them to leave out of their consideration the 3,000 men left wounded on the field of battle, of whom 1,500 afterwards fell into the hands of the enemy? Did he mean them to leave out of their consideration, that, since the battle, our army had not been able to resume offensive operations. It was remarkable that not one dispatch from this army had been published since that dated from Truxillo, on the 21st of August. Had no dispatches been received from the army, or were ministers afraid of communicating their contents to the public? The whole campaign was wrapped in mystery, and he was determined to have information, before be voted honours. Upon ail these grounds as he must protest against the Vote of Thanks to the general, he should move as an amendment, "That the Thanks of the House should be given to the officers and troops who served under lord Wellington, for their undaunted courage and gallantry on the 27th and 28th of July, in the battle of Talavera. But while the House gave this praise to the officer; and men, for their Undaunted courage and gallantry, they had to lament that the army since that period had been unable to resume active operations. They had also to lament, that, after the battle, they had suffered the enemy to pass two days in inactivity, without attacking them, and also for having allowed themselves to be cut off at the bridge of Arzobispo."
Mr. Vernonrose to second the amendment. The hon. gent. commenced a maiden speech of considerable ability, by expressing the high respect he entertained for the military talents and character of lord Wellington. He was ready to admit, that the country was already indebted to that noble and gallant officer for many great and signal services; and that it might justly look up to him for the performance of still more eminent services hereafter. But whilst he was thus forward to do justice to the general military merits of lord Wellington, he felt himself conscientiously bound to vote against the original motion, because whatever distinguished military talents may have been displayed during the action, he must ever condemn the temerity which had exposed a British army to the dreadful alternative of a conflict against a superior force, or absolute destruction, in a precipitate and disastrous retreat: before he should proceed more immediately to the question he felt it necessary to notice an insinuation, which had been thrown out by the right hon. gent. (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) that the gentlemen on this side of the House were actuated by party motives on this occasion, and wished by refusing the thanks of that House to the general, to cast a reflection on the ministers who had employed him. If private honour and a sense of public duty could not secure them against such a bias, motives of prudence and policy would; because unquestionably nothing could more effectually lower their characters in the estimation of the public, or degrade them in their own, than such a surrender of every principle of justice and generosity to the purposes of party. When he looked to the circumstances of the action, he could not contemplate the extraordinary valour of the army without admiration; but in proportion as he admired the firmness and bravery of the army, he was bound to give way to regret, that it should have been not only unprofitably employed but unnecessarily exposed. Lord Wellington might have learned more discretion from the experience of sir John Moore's incursion into Spain; he might have derived salutary information from the recorded opinions of that great and justly lamented general; he ought to have been prevented from a precipitate advance into Spain with another British army by the example of the disastrous consequences, and unfortunate circumstances of the retreat to Corunna.

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Lord Wellington had not the same excuse nor the same incitement as sir John Moore to penetrate into Spain; because he was invested with large limits of discretion, and had no officious and impertinent interference to encounter. He was not goaded on to the certain hazard and probable sacrifice of his army by the intemperate representation of a political agent, nor insulted in his own camp by the presence of a suspicious Frenchman impudently authorised to controul him in the command and disposal of his army. He had not to contend against the arrogant dictates of a rash and presumptous diplomatist, of blind but obtrusive zeal, seeking by a display of devotion to the cause of the Junta to establish a claim to a Spanish marquisate. The campaign in Spain, however, was only a part of the general system of ministers, and it became the House therefore before it sanctioned the conduct of lord Wellington, to consider how he had acquitted himself of the responsibility reposed in him. If he could confine his view to the battle of Talavera alone, he would be sorry to disturb the unanimity of the vote; but he could not allow that it was a positive merit in a general to fight against an enemy much superior in number. On the contrary it was usually considered the part of a good general to avoid being forced into an unequal conflict. He could not allow lord Wellington to be justified by his own wrong, and consequently should not consent to thank that general for having extricated himself, with distinguished ability he would allow, but with great loss and difficulty, from the consequence of his own rashness and imprudence. Upon what ground did lord Wellington calculate that his 25,000 men would be able to cope with 100,000 Frenchmen in the heart of the Peninsula? But it had been said, that the French armies had been checked by this battle—but the real result of the battle of Talavera was, that our army was checked in its proposed march to Madrid, for which important service Joseph Buonaparté had thanked his troops. Lord Wellington had no resources equal to the accomplishment of the enterprise he had undertaken, and the real object of the march appeared to be to shelter the planners of the Expedition from the charge of impotence and inactivity, and would be well illustrated by a passage in Hudibras, concluding with the lines—
"To pot the rabble in a flame,
"And keep their governors from blame."
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It was stated that if two things had occurred, we should have succeeded better. If the Spanish Junta had not acted as they did, and if the Spanish General had done his duty, the success would have been more complete. All this, however, might have been foreseen; but if the object of the march into Spain was to attack the French army under Victor, as soon as Cuesta refused the co-operation which was promised, it was the duty of lord Wellington to have retreated. The campaign of sir John Moore was a melancholy warning of what was to be expected from penetrating into the heart of Spain. He never had looked on the situation of Spanish affairs with any very sanguine hopes; and when against the great superiority which France possessed in armies, and in able and experienced officers, the resources of Spain were stated to consist in her loyalty and religion; he feared for her fate. There were some systems of religion, such as those which inculcate predestination, that inspire an extraordinary contempt of danger: but he did not know that such was the character of that sort of religion to which the Spaniards were bigotted. Neither did he calculate much upon their loyalty to such a sovereign as Ferdinand the Seventh, who had voluntarily thrown himself into the hands of the enemy, and might be said to have resigned his crown. If he saw the crown and the altar surrounded with equal laws, and if he saw the spirit of liberty the animating principle and bond of union among Spaniards, then he should not despair of that country. He believed that was the principle which dictated the heroic resistance of Gerona and Saragossa. The exertions which the patriots of Saragossa made was not without its reward. As long as the Ebro should traverse the province of Arragon, so long would the immortal fame of the heroes of Saragossa adorn the history of the country. He was not, however, for deserting the Spaniards altogether. He would wish to send them every thing we could assist them with, except a British army. Upon all the grounds he had stated, he felt bound from a sense of his duty to second the amendment of his noble friend.
Mr. Matthew Montagupassed a high encomium on the eloquent display of talent, which had been made by the hon. gent. who spoke last. It was the first time that gentleman had spoken in the House, but he had evinced an ability and energy

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which reflected the highest credit on his acquirements. He, however, could not help expressing his regret, that he should have chosen a subject so ill calculated to place these abilities in an eminent point of view, and have entered into a censure on a noble lord, whose services to his country had been so brilliant and so universally admitted. The hon. gent. had inveighed against the accusation of being guided merely by party feelings in forming his opinions, yet, through the whole course of his argument he had not adduced a single circumstance, nor assigned any just ground on which opposition could be fairly made to the Vote of Thanks to lord Wellington. It had been also urged, that the whole conduct of ministers had been disgraceful and impolitic. He could not see upon what basis such a charge could be founded, except from party considerations. What had been their conduct with respect to Spain? They saw a free people struggling for their liberty, and with an alacrity which conferred on them the highest credit, they endeavoured to supply those requisites which were necessary to promote their success; they wanted a military commander—one was sent; they wanted troops—troops were sent; they wanted money—money was sent; and they wanted good counsel, which was also given them; but the hon. gent. said they had neither religion, patriotism, nor politics to guide them in this conduct. When it was determined that a military officer should be sent to Spain and lord Wellington had arrived there; he would ask, would it be prudent for that officer to remain hovering on the coast, and not endeavour to drive the enemy from the heart of the country? Was he to remain inactive; or in what manner was he to assist, our allies? Was it not expedient that he should form a co-operation with the Spaniards, and did he not adopt, such plans as were most likely to be attended with ultimate success? Surely if a failure took place in consequence of a want of energy and unanimity in the Spaniards, such a circumstance was not to detract from the glory of lord Wellington's achievements, nor dim that lustre which the brilliancy of his actions had reflected on his military character. That gallant lord was not answerable for such failures. He could only rely on his own skill, he set a noble example to our allies, and endeavoured to instill into their hearts that spirit which could alone
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enable them to resist the despotism of a tyrant. His exertions were unhappily distinguished by no lasting success, and the effect of his operations was destroyed by the pusillanimity of his co-operating forces. This, however, could not be deemed a ground of objection to him. In the field of Talavera, he had performed wonders: surrounded by every difficulty he fought and conquered a French force of twice the magnitude of his own, and placed the character of the British arms on a basis of superiority unequalled by all the world. The hon. gent. then entered into a discussion of the conduct of ministers, which he said was guided only by that patriotic desire for the interests of their country that had distinguished their administration. He saw no ground of complaint, nor had they any reason to be ashamed of the policy they had adopted. They stood up in the face of the country in support of the cause of England and of Europe against the despotic sway of an usurper, and had followed the principles of that great statesman, Mr. Pitt, by wisely keeping the war at a distance from their own door. He concluded with a declaration of his admiration of the talents and character of lord Wellington, and of his most hearty concurrence in the original motion.
General Tarletonnever rose with feelings of more pain than on this occasion; because he meant to oppose the vote of thanks to a brother officer. He begged leave to begin his speech by saying a few words of himself. He had been attacked with the foulest obloquy, for the part he had taken with respect to the Vote of Thanks for the battle of Vimiera; but he could assure the House, that his conduct in that instance had been, as it would be in this, dictated by feelings of duty and a love for his profession. Lord Wellington appeared to him to have advanced into Spain upon his own responsibility; and he would ask any hon. gent. who heard him, whether he had acted the part of a prudent general in having done so? It was obvious that his object was to have moved upon Madrid; because Joseph Buonaparté would not have brought his body guards to support Victor, nor left Madrid with a hostile population and without any adequate force to keep down that population, if not for the purpose of covering his capital. General Junot had done the same, when he advanced against sir Arthur Wellesley in Portugal. When lord Wel

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lington arrived at Taiavera, and formed a junction with Cuesta, he was in want of stores, means of transport, food, and provender; but if he had advanced upon Madrid, he would have encountered more difficulties, and sustained multiplied loss. The allied army consisted of about 50,000 men; the Spaniards occupying the right, and the English the centre and left. The Spanish position was covered by vineyards in front, which enabled them to repulse the attack of the enemy, which commenced upon the right. No man could say that this repulse was not of great service to the English army, because, if the Spanish position had been forced, it was clear that the right of the English army would have been turned; and general Cuesta had acted with wisdom in not advancing from his position into broken ground, where he would have been exposed to the superior manœuvres of the enemy. Having dwelt at some length on the circumstances of the battle, the hon. general contended, that upon the whole it was to be considered a repulse but not a defeat of the enemy, because the French continued in their positions two days after the action. He next came to the accounts of the action contained in the dispatches of lord Wellington, which were he must contend vain-glorious, partial, and incorrect. Vain-glorious, as every man who read them would perceive; partial, because, though they contained some praise of the Spaniards, that praise was not adequate to their services; and incorrect, because almost every line contained a statement which the circumstances of the case did not bear out. But he would ask what had been said, and what done, and what represented by the ministerial prints, and rumours at the time? The battle of Talavera was compared to that of Agincourt. But in the latter, the situation of the king before the battle was perilous, and by the victory he gained a crown. Whereas by the battle of Talavera Ferdinand the Seventh lost a crown. It had been said in another place, that the actions of lord Wellington were as glorious as those of the illustrious ancestors of any noble peer. That brought him to the consideration of the great duke of Marlborough, who had carried the military glory of this country to the highest pitch. The hon. general then enumerated the distinguishing features of the battles of Blenheim and Malplaquet, in order to shew that the battle of Talavera was not
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to be compared with either. The most important advantages were the result of the victories of the immortal Marlborough, but what benefit had been derived from, the boasted victory of Talavera? Had lord Wellington made a movement in advance to follow up the victory? Had he not been obliged to a precipitate retreat after abandoning his sick and wounded, and exposing the Spanish army to the danger of having its retreat cut off? He was convinced that lord Wellington had been deficient in information, both as to the amount and situation of Soult's army, and as to the extent of those armies with which he was nearly surrounded; and though he was ready to do every justice that his feeble language could enable him, to the brilliant valour, steady discipline, and persevering gallantry of the generals, field officers, and troops who fought under him, he could lay his hand upon his heart and say, that he could not conscientiously vote, that the Thanks of that House should be given to lord Wellington.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he was sure it would not be considered extraordinary by the House, that he rose, upon the present occasion, to offer some remarks. It was impossible that he should not feel, in common with the House, the weight which any objections must have in such a case, when coming from an hon. general, who must be supposed to carry all those professional partialities about him, which would disincline him from obstructing, without strong grounds indeed, the honours of a distinguished brother officer. It was impossible not to hesitate, when the gallant general in the discharge of a public duty felt himself called upon, not only to refuse the thanks of that House to lord Wellington, but even to lend his countenance to the attempt to convert a vote of thanks into the heaviest censure that could be passed upon a most meritorious officer. He must protest in the outset against the practice of referring to the operations of a whole campaign on a question confined to the merits of a single but glorious and memorable action. But whilst he thus protested against such a principle, he felt that he should be doing great injustice to lord Wellington, if he omitted to enter upon the consideration of the whole campaign, the merits of which were such as to reflect the highest honour upon that noble officer. In April, lord Wellington found himself at the head of 25,000 men in Portugal. His instructions

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directed him to rescue and defend Portugal, but. he was at liberty to combine, and co-operate in the execution of a plan of operations with any of the Spanish general in command of the armies in the adjoining provinces, always however looking to the defence of Portugal as the grand object of the Expedition and the most important duty he had to perform. Soult at that period occupied the North, whilst Victor, after hiving beaten Cuesta at Medellin, menaced the South of that kingdom. The wish to drive the enemy out of Portugal attracted his attention to the North: the entreaties of Cuesta invited him to act against Victor; and his own anxiety to carry into speedy and full effect the instructions under which he was to act, rendered the option difficult. He, however, decided for the North, leaving 12,000 men, under general M'Kenzie, on the Tagus to watch the motions of the enemy in that quarter. He should not dwell upon the merits of the brilliant manner in which that service was performed; because, though there might be persons in this country who might dispute the question, the enemy had done ample justice to the merits of that decisive operation by comparing it to the most brilliant achievements of their own emperor. After this signal service lord Wellington returned towards the South with the same celerity, which had marked his victorious progress against Soult. If he had then remained inactive at Abrantes, what would have been the feeling of his country? What, indeed, had actually been that feeling? Did not gentlemen remember how lord Wellington had been run down for his inactivity during the short time he remained at Abrantes to recruit and refresh his army? They all saw from the statement in the public papers, from the very voice of the country at large, the impatience with which that short interval of repose was regarded; the universal cry was, "why did he stay at Abrantes?" He mentioned this circumstance, not to shew that the public cry should have any effect upon an officer, charged with the execution of an important trust, but merely to exemplify what difficulties an officer, so circumstanced, had to contend with, when the public voice might be urging him to an act which might afterwards be questioned, and imputed to him as an error. But if lord Wellington had advanced from Abrantes before the harvest had been collected in, neither his own troops, nor
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those of Spain, with which he was to co-operate, could possibly have found subsistence.
The principle upon which lord Wellington had acted and was expressly instructed to act, was in the first instance to provide for the defence of Portugal, by the expulsion of the French corps from that country. Having accomplished that object, he was bound to co-operate with Cuesta, so far as that was practicable without losing sight of the defence of Portugal. In proceeding to Talavera. Lord Wellington expected to give such a shock to Victor's corps, that it would not easily recover from, before he should be re-summoned to the defence of the north of Portugal. This advance to co-operate with Cuesta, for the purpose of securing for the Spaniards the line of defence on the Lower Tagus, was connected with the main object of relieving Portugal from the pressure of Victor's army. The victory he gained gave to Spain the line of the Tagus, had the effect of producing the evacuation of the Northern provinces, and enabled our allies to rescue from the grasp of their invaders, the fleet stationed at Ferrol, which was now safely moored at Cadiz. If lord Wellington had not been prevented by the infatuation of the Spanish general, from attacking Victor on the 23d, there was every reason to suppose that he would have obtained a glorious and decisive victory, in which case the junction which had afterwards been effected of French corps would have been prevented, and the allied army in a condition to make head against the enemy in any direction. But though lord Wellington had advanced into Spain under a determination to co-operate with Cuesta only so far as was compatible with the security of Portugal, he was not bound necessarily to avoid Madrid if a favourable opportunity of effecting a decisive blow there, should have been presented to him. Besides he could state it as a positive fact that before he left Abrantes, he had heard of the battle of Aspern, and must naturally have concluded, that that was the moment at which Spain would be likely to make an effort for her liberties, if any effort she was determined to make. His object, therefore, was to assist Spain as much as possible in that most critical juncture, and, at the same time, to keep in view the defence of Portugal, which was the principal object of his attention: and so far was he from abandoning, that

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object on his advance into Spain, that, as he had already stated, he told Cuesta that he could not go farther with him than the Alberche, until he should be apprised of the situation and designs of the French armies in the North. So, far, therefore, from being ignorant upon this point, or having acted without the necessary intelligence, as he had been charged with, he actually limited his operations, in consequence of his information.—He had now brought the operations down to the situation of the British Army at Talavera, previous to the battle. Not only the Spanish army under Cuesta was to have co-operated with the British army with which it had formed a junction, but the corps of Venegas, as Cuesta informed lord Wellington, was to move simultaneously upon Arganda, and make a diversion in favour of the operations of the allied army. Instead, however, of proceeding in that direction which would have enabled Venegas to prevent General Sebastiani's force from uniting with Victor's, he unfortunately advanced to Toledo, which left the enemy at liberty to concentrate all his forces and bring the whole combined to bear upon the British Army. Here be would beg of those gentlemen, who regarded the movement of lord Wellington as so rash, to look a little at the movement of Soult, and consider but for a moment the peculiar circumstances that attended it. It might not be unnecessary, in passing, to state that the force of Soult on his advance to Placentia, did not consist of 70,000 but of 34,000 men, and that not more than 4,000 of them belonged to Soult's original corps, being the whole that escaped with him from the North of Portugal without baggage, artillery, or ammunition. The army of Soult then was composed principally of the corps of Ney and Mortier, and the corps which had been stationed at Burgos, the command of all which when united necessarily devolved upon Soult, in consequence of his being senior Marshal to Ney and Mortier. With this concentrated force Soult proceeded to the South, evacuating the North of Spain, where he left the Gallician army in his rear. He then passed by the corps of the Duke del Parque at Cividad Rodrigo, whilst he was flanked by the Portuguese army 15,000 strong under Marshal Beresford at Campo Majoran, the Spanish frontier. It would be obvious upon the slightest consideration that this advance of Soult was an extremely ha-
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zardous movement, and not to have been expected upon any sound military principles. Lord Wellington, therefore, would not have been justified in contracting the sphere of his own operations from any apprehension of a movement on the part of Soult under such circumstances of peril and discouragement. So far, then, from being liable to the charge of rashness, lord Wellington's conduct he would contend was characterised by consummate skill, energy, and prudence. He had never put himself in a situation from which he might not at any time have been able to regain his former position in Portugal. The line of his march placed him in a condition either to fight Victor and Sebastiani, or to attack Soult in the possible event of his advancing upon him. Whatever might be the course of the campaign the judicious choice of his position enabled lord Wellington to play the great game, he had to manage, with advantage. The course pursued by Soult had not come upon him by surprise. Lord Wellington was fully aware, that, however improbable, such a movement was not impossible, and consequently without contemplating its certainty, had taken measures to meet every contingency. He had concerted with Marshal Beresford the means of rendering the Portuguese army instrumental in defeating or retarding the progress of Soult, if he should attempt to move towards the South. The strong pass of the Puerto Pico was guarded by a Portuguese force, whilst the Spaniards undertook to defend the pass of Banos: and if the latter had maintained their position, Soult would not have been able to bear against the allied army. But the British army had never been so closely pressed by the force under Soult as gentlemen seemed to think. The retreat of lord Wellington was regular and unmolested, and consequently it was not true that he had been hotly pursued b y Soult It was certainly true that Soult moved along the same line with him; and if he waited for Soult, Soult must as certainly have overtaken him; but there being no danger of that, on the contrary, there being always a long interval between them, no pressure could be said to exist. There was nothing therefore upon the face of the campaign to deprive lord Wellington of his well-earned honours—(Hear! hear!)—There was nothing that could impeach his prudence, or expose him to the charge of audacity and rashness, beyond that

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spirit of enterprise which a British commander ought to possess. A battle more distinguished he did not know of in the military annals of this country; for, however the hon. general might call their attention to battles, too remote to be perfectly understood, he would defy him to point out, in modern times, one of a more brilliant and distinguished character. It would require more ingenuity to do this, than the hon. general appeared to him to have yet displayed. Never, perhaps, was so close an action, so vigorously maintained or so long contested. It often was the case that some fortunate event suddenly and unexpectedly turned the fate of the field, without any long continued exertion of the powers of the armies; the battle of Talavera was not of that description, as every inch of ground was disputed, and it was by a long and bloody perseverance, and that against superior numbers, that the fortune of the day was decided. By the same unfortunate fatality, however, by which Spanish councils were characterised, the advantage of the victory was not improved. The attack was commenced at one o'clock in the day, and it was at the close of evening that that great exploit in the recovery of his former position was performed by general Hill, which was, no doubt, in their recollections. Night interrupted the conflict, and the two armies remained in their positions in sight of each other waiting the return of light to renew the battle. It was during that awful interval that the distinguished general at the head of the British army enjoyed some repose, and sound it was known to have been, a repose, which none but a great man could enjoy during the short but anxious intermission of an obstinate and sanguinary battle. From this sound repose lord Wellington rose in the morning of the 28th to a renewal of the engagement and a further display of his own ability and the resistless intrepidity of his gallant army. The contest was then continued till twelve o'clock, when an interval of two hours rest from the work of destruction, was employed by the troops on both sides in removing their respective dead from the scene of action; and then it was that those whose arms were before uplifted for mutual havock met at the stream which intervened between their mutual positions, and shook hands in token of their reciprocal admiration of the bravery, and skill and firmness displayed on both sides.
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He had to congratulate the country upon the restoration of that generous feeling and high spirit which had heretofore characterised the conduct of soldiers in civilised warfare.—He congratulated the country on this circumstance; he congratulated the world, that, in these days, the rage of war did not subdue and extinguish those feelings of generosity which were the ornament of human nature; and that if some of our brave troops did fall into the hands of the enemy, they fell into the hands of an enemy who knew how to respect them. To say that such an effort of skill and ability, such an acquisition of British glory, was not calculated to call forth the admiration of the House of Commons, was an attempt to introduce a feeling into that House, which he conceived it the duty of every member to resist. The loss of that day was much dwelt upon—the loss of that day he regretted as much as any man, but he deprecated that mode of painful searching, which was calculated to injure and unnerve the military energy of the country; if such feelings were to become general, they would be reduced to the necessity of ceasing altogether from opposition to the French, and giving up the character which they were so well calculated to maintain—that of a great military power. But the gentlemen who dwelt so anxiously upon this head, were in the habit of running away from the fact. There was no circumstance more to the honour of lord Wellington, than that such a difficult and enterprising campaign was concluded with such little comparative loss. This was the proudest testimony which could be given of the talents of a Commander. He should feel it his duty, at a future day, to call for the returns; at present, if he might credit what he had heard, without consulting them, our loss during the whole campaign in Portugal and Spain, including the 1,500 wounded, who fell into the hands of the enemy, did not exceed 6,000 men. So that lord Wellington had performed a march of 1200 miles, and fought a battle, unexampled for its heroism, with a loss which, under the circumstances, must be considered trifling. On the contrary, what was the loss of the enemy; that enemy; whose fate gentlemen were so much in the habit of contrasting with lord Wellington's? The enemy's loss did not amount to less than 10,000 men. He hoped that they should never again hear of such contrasts, unless they were drawn

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in favour of the British general. Soult, with all the eulogiums pronounced upon his retreat, did not carry with him a single cannon and but a third of his army from Portugal. There was one topic more, to which he should advert; which was the dignity conferred upon lord Wellington, in the title conferred by his Majesty. The hon. general had said, that he fought for it at Talavera, he, lord C. would say, that he had fought for it all over the world; it was not in Talavera alone his fame was established, he had fought in all quarters, generally opposed by greater numbers, but always victorious. He did not know how honours could be more usefully bestowed, than upon such men and such services; and so long as the principle upon which he was advanced was acted upon, there was no likelihood of the peerage being disgraced. It was true, and fortunate for the country, that honours were frequently bestowed, during the late and present wars, for great military excellence; but that was rather a, proof of the talents and bravery of the country, than of the debasement of its honours. While they lamented the losses inevitable in war, let them also remember the advantages—let them remember that the army, with its present experience, was worth tenfold what it was before, and that if, from an unlucky circumstance, it had failed in its object, in no one instance had it been defeated or disgraced. We now appeared before the eyes of Europe, not merely as we had been heretofore considered, a mere naval power, we were also a military one; recognized as such by an enemy, who had experienced our might in our victories, and those often, when, with inferior numbers, we beat the best and most experienced of his troops. Upon the whole view of the case, he deprecated the notion, that the country was disgraced, and thought, that, for every reason on which it became them to decide, they should agree in giving the thanks to lord Wellington.
Mr. Whitbreadcongratulated lord Wellington that he had found such an able panegyrist as the noble lord who had just spoken, and the noble lord himself, on the display of eloquence he had made, which, if not contradicted by the dispatches themselves, might have amounted to a defence of his own conduct while in office. He (Mr. W.) was not one of those whom the noble lord had described as too vehement in lamentation; at the
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same time, he could not withhold a tear when he thought of the fate of so many brave soldiers, and the quantity of British blood that had been spilt in a sacrifice to incapacity and folly. They were told, in a whimsical way, that the English were niggards of applause to those who had fought their battles; but he would appeal from the charge to the fact; from the accuser to the history of the country. Was there ever a period when merit was more liberally rewarded than by this generous people, during the last and present wars? There was no man of those, whose political sentiments he disapproved whom he would oppose so reluctantly, as the very distinguished officer he was now compelled to oppose. The noble lord had mixed up the general with the army, and then demanded whether such actions as had been performed should be refused the thanks of parliament? With an utter contempt of dates, he had made a case, unsupported by events, to bolster up his own statement. He (Mr. W.) was no military man; but when he could oppose the noble lord, upon the authority of lord Wellington himself, he thought, he might venture to dispute the points with him. The noble lord had stated, that the principal object was the defence of Portugal; he believed it was not. He also spoke of the expulsion of Soult, and drew a comparison between the British and French commanders. They were not to try Soult, but they were to try lord Wellington, with respect to his claim upon the thanks of that House. It had been said, that lord Wellington had heard of the battles of Aspern and Esling, while at Abrantes, but how could he think that that battle would operate to draw off the French at such a distance? But did the noble lord mean to say, that the French were unprovided with magazines? Was it the practice of Buonaparté to be so?—At all events, if the noble lord could issue his orders, with such effect, in the different countries through which he passed, he then might proceed without magazines, and provide himself as he advanced. But the contrary was the case; his army was famishing. It had been mentioned, somewhere, as an honour to the general, that he conquered, with half-famished troops, the well-fed and luxurious troops of the enemy. Could a greater charge be brought against him? Why did he take them there to be famished. But it seemed he had instructions that were dis-

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claimed before; they were now avowed, however, in order to afford some credit to the Portland administration, to enable them to say, "this is the greatest general—that was the greatest army, in the world—and it was we who sent them out!". On forming the junction with Cuesta, they were to attack the enemy the next day, but found that he was gone. But while lord Wellington accused general Cuesta of delay, he ought to have stated the grounds of it; and, in not doing so, he did that general an injustice, As to the attack upon general M' Kenzie's party in the wood, it had every appearance of being unexpected. The Spaniards, to whom he allowed no praise, whom he represented as taking no part in the battle, he was nevertheless necessitated to mention no less than five times in his dispatch; and it was rather too much to say, that he had contended with double his number. He had even mentioned a Spanish general, who was wounded in bringing up his inactive infantry to assist in the battle. There were, undoubtedly, prodigies of valour displayed by the British; but even in the famous charge of the 23d regiment of dragoons he thought that the general was much to blame.—There was almost a gulph between them and the enemy, when they made the charge, and many were lost in consequence. This should have been known before: the ground should have been reconnoitered. Lord Wellington had bravery; he had skill upon other occasions; but that he should be thanked, as a skilful commander for his conduct upon that day, he would deny. He himself had called the victory a repulse, and the name was more appropriate. It was the intention to march to Madrid, and even to fight a battle beyond it. He could not conceive why Ferrol should be evacuated in consequence of the battle of Talavera. He denied that there was any other retreat for the army than that through Deiletosa; and represented their condition as most deplorable, many of them not having tasted food for eight and forty hours previous to the battle, and hundreds having perished on the road, from mere famine, during the retreat. He would not agree to give a premium to rashness. The Spanish cause was now more hopeless than ever. Where, then, was the advantage of the victory? He could not agree that the army was become stronger since, than before its losses, and regarded our late continental efforts,
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as calculated to sink the military character of the country, though they had raised that of the soldiery, whose gallantry was indisputable.
General Craufurdvindicated the military character of lord Wellington, and said they might as well accuse him of not being able to answer the first question in the catechism, as of ignorance or precipitation. He had displayed, on the contrary, the greatest skill, though his plan had not succeeded to the utmost extent, owing to Sebastiani's corps not having been detained by Venegas. The Spaniards had not taken his advice as they ought. He was a most consummate general, and deserved the greatest honours the country could bestow.
General Stewartwished to make a few remarks on one or two points touching the Conduct of the battle of Talavera. Lord Wellington had projected an attack on the army of Victor on the 23d, which, had it been acceded to by general Cuesta, must have terminated in the annihilation of that corps. On the 24th Victor retreated, and was pursued as far as Olala. On the 26th the Spanish army retreated to the left bank of the Alberche, and then it was that the dispositions made by lord Wellington not only secured the subsequent glorious victory to his own troops, but preserved the Spanish army. It had been observed that lord W. did not expect the battle; in the first instance he did not: how could he when Victor had retreated? It was the Spanish army brought them back upon him, and then his presence of mind furnished a barrier to every difficulty. As to his personal conduct he could only say, that he was every where during the fight, and always in the hottest of the action; and in expressing his approbation of the motion, he was sure he but expressed what was the general feeling of the army.
Mr. Windhamobserved, that the arguments he had heard did not divest him of the opinion, that the battle of Talavera was a glorious victory. Honourable gentlemen on the opposite side spoke of feeling: he believed, when the victory was first announced in this country, there was not a man but. gloried in it. He was afraid we had got too much military special pleading, that would argue merely on the result, not the valour and generalship shewn. It put him in mind of a story of a wag, who was asked, how he came by a visible fracture on his face? "Why, I beat "him, and he beat me, but I gave in

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"first;" so with the French; as the victory was claimed on both sides; but they came first, and were repulsed. In the case of a fortress, the garrison could not do more than repulse the army that invaded it; that is, the enemy left it when they pleased; and were they not to be thanked for preserving the fortress against a superior enemy, although not able to follow them? Then, would you say, lord Wellington did not gain a victory, because he was not able to harass them in their retreat? He had heard, in the course of debate, what had been done, and what might have been done; but was it necessary that a problem in Euclid, which had been proved, should be called in question in that House. Then it had been substantiated that the battle of Talavera was a victory; and why should they prevent it from operating on their minds as such? They had no advantage from the victory of Corunna, except that the army were able to save themselves. If lord Wellington had acted imprudently before the battle, it ought not to retract or withdraw as much as the weight of a feather from the victory he had obtained. It had been argued, that, although he might be an able general in battle, yet he was not capable of conducting a campaign, for he had not secured a retreat. Such arguments proved themselves to be altogether fallacious; for he had shewn that he had a retreat, and that too by retreating in safety, after shewing that he could do something. The right hon. gent. then proceeded to state, that although France had generals of great skill, yet had they not run great risks, and secured a battle, that the breaking of a thread might have prevented them from achieving? But to take a view of the question under the general head, the unproductive consequences were not to be put in comparison with the military glory we had obtained. It might be asked, would an engagement, that only acquired military glory, prove advantageous to the country? He would answer, yes; if military valour was necessary for national strength; and he conceived it of much more service to the nation at large, than the taking of a sugar island, or a ship at sea: 10 or 15 years ago, their army was considered as nought; it was thought, on the continent, that we might do something at sea; that we were a kind of sea animal. Our achievements in Egypt first entitled us to the name of a military power; the battle of Maida con-
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firmed it; and he would not give the battles of Vimeira, Corunna, and Talavera, for a whole Archipelago of sugar islands. The whole feelings and powers of the country had changed in their military capacity. They began to feel they wanted something more than a navy to support them. There never was an action in this world, but some persons might sit down and investigate it, and find some fault; but they were not to give credit to the criticisers. He was sorry that such a letter as had been sent by lord Wellington to the government had ever been written. As to the Spaniards, he believed it set forth nothing but what was true; but it went to proclaim glory which did not belong to him. It was like a sea engagement. And as it could not be contended that the hull of a vessel had nothing to do with the guns which gained the victory; or like a spear that inflicted a wound, could it be said that the staff was not of service? so with the Spanish army; they did all that was required of them, they kept their position. The victory in itself must have been of use to the Spanish cause, for it shewed them that a British army was invincible, and the victory well deserved the honour of the reward moved to be bestowed on it by that House.
Mr. Lyttletonconcurred in the vote of thanks; but asked, what would have been the situation of the army, if ministers had given the same kind of discretion to a commander of a less enterprising and active spirit?
Mr. C. Adamsspoke in favour of the question.
General Montagu Mathewgave his most hearty concurrence to the vote of thanks to his noble friend; and added that he was proud he could call him countryman, whose glorious and great achievements he could only compare to those of marshal Lannes.
Mr. Ponsonbysaid, he was aware that the vote he should give would not be consonant with the feelings of the House. He knew little of military affairs, and he believed the major part of the House were in the same situation; yet they were the persons who were to approve or disapprove. He did not wish, at that late hour of the night, to enter into the merits of the battle of Talavera; but this he knew, the British troops fought, and were not able to maintain their ground. He thought the victories in Egypt and Maida were sufficient to establish our military fame,

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without sending lord Wellington to hazard the treasure of the country, the valuable lives of their soldiers, where no possible good could result from it. That the battle of Talavera was fought with intrepidity, no man could doubt. But the duties of a soldier and a general were very different. The first, inspired with the duty and love he owed his country, was willing to undergo all privations, was even careless of his life; where danger was there he flew; but the duty of a commander was quite different. He ought to be careful that the soldier should suffer no privations, that he should not endanger his life without actual necessity, and unless the service of his country required it. Was lord Wellington thus careful? This was a plain fact, on which every man of understanding could come to a conclusion, whether vested with military knowledge or not. He would not detract from the merits of those who fought under lord Wellington; he was sensible they did as much as men could do, and no honour their country could confer on them would be equal to their deserts. He concluded by saying, that he would give his support to the amendment.
Mr. Canningfelt it impossible to conceive why assent to the motion should be withheld. On no other provocation, than that government had called on the House to speak the sentiments of gratitude which warmed almost every heart in the country, the House was required, through the medium of the proposed amendment, to censure the noble lord whose conduct was the subject of discussion, and to pronounce him, instead of the exalter of the honour of his country, the wanton waster of her best blood. He lamented the loss that had taken place in the battle of Talavera as much as any man; but war was a game that could not be played without risks and losses. It had been said that the House had been too prodigal of their approbation in recent times. We lived in an age so full of splendid achievements, that it was feared the spring of honour might be dried up. This was indeed a source of high exultation, and one in which he trusted the country would long have to indulge.
Lord Folkestonesupported the amendment.
Sir T. Turtonrose, amidst a loud call for the question, and said a few words in avour of the Vote of Thanks.
Strangers were then ordered to with-
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draw: but the House did not divide, of course the Vote of Thanks to lord Wellington was carried. After which the House resolved,—1. "That the Thanks of this House be given to lieut. general sir John Cope Sherbrooke, knight of the most honourable order of the bath, to lieut. general William Payne, to lieut. general sir Stapleton Cotton, baronet, to lieut. general Rowland Hill, to major-general Christopher Tilson, to brigadier-general Alexander Campbell, to brigadier-general Henry Frederick Campbell, to brigadier-general Richard Stewart, to brigadier-general the hon. Charles Stewart, to brigadier-general Alan Cameron, to brigadier-general Henry Fane, to brigadier-general George Anson, and to brigadier-general Edward Howorth, and the several other officers, for their distinguished exertions on the 27th and 28th of July last, in the memorable battle of Talavera, which terminated in the signal defeat of the forces of the enemy.—2. That this House doth highly approve of, and acknowledge, the distinguished valour and discipline displayed by the non-commissioned officers and private soldiers of the forces serving on the 27th and 28th of July last, under the command of lieutenant-general lord viscount Wellington, in the glorious victory obtained at Talavera; and that the same be signified to them by the commanding officers of the several corps, who are desired to thank them for their gallant and exemplary conduct."

AMERICA.
Earl Greymoved for several papers relative to Mr. Erskine's negotiations in America, consisting of dispatches from Mr. Canning to Mr. Erskine, containing instructions, &c.; dispatches from the latter to the former; and letters
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from Mr. Erskine to the American secretary of state. Understanding there was no objection to their production, he should not take up the time of their lordships by making any prefatory observations.
Marquis Wellesleyhad no objection to the production of the papers moved for by the noble earl; the transaction to which they referred being a thing past, no public inconvenience could now result from producing them. It might, perhaps, be necessary that some further papers should be produced: and if, upon investigation, he should find it so, he would move for them on Monday.
Lord Erskinesaid, that he was glad the papers were to be produced. He had some particular reasons for rising on this occasion to address a few observations to their lordships; considering the connection he stood in to that very near relation of his, who was intrusted by Government with the American negotiation. There was only one small piece of paper which would appear when the papers were produced, of which he knew any thing. He declared upon his honour, that he had never seen the instructions, nor was consulted nor acquainted with the particulars of the transaction. It had been said, that from his known difference in politics with the present administration, it was likely, that the gentleman who was entrusted with the negociations, had acted under the impression of political principles different from those of the government which employed him in so important a situation. In his name, he (lord Erskine) took upon himself publicly to disavow such a feeling and such conduct. If he could have believed that; such were the case—if he thought that he could have acted upon opinions of his own, contrary to those of that government of which he was only the instrument and agent, then, nearly as he was connected with him, he should not only have reprobated his conduct, he should never again have spoken a word to him in the whole course of his life. His lordship said he came into that House, free from any private considerations, to the discussion of the business respecting America, and to give his opinion and his vote, as a statesman and a peer of parliament, with a view only to the true interests of his country.
The motion for papers was carried nem. con.