Sitting of 3 May 1809

STAMP OFFICE.—
Mr. Whitbread, referring to the accounts laid before the house, of the incidental expences of the Stamp Office departments in Eng-

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land and Scotland, particularly pointed out some items in the accounts for England, which he thought required investigation. There were a number of trifling articles paid by the commissioners of their own authority, which he thought required investigation, such as servants wages to the house-keeper, and other small sums amounting to between 300 l. and 400 l. There was also a considerable sum of upwards of 2,700 l. yearly charged as allowances to stampers for extra hours at 6d. per hour. He understood that all the servants of the office were paid for their time. If the salaries were too small they ought to be encreased. The only, and surely the most economical way, to have good servants, was to give them adequate and liberal salaries. He observed also a sum of 50 l. to the warehouse-keeper for an increase of duty. All these sums he conceived should be made by public grant, and not at the discretion of the commissioners. In Scotland the items granted in this way were even to a greater amount, and there was one item which appeared to him to be particularly objectionable. This was a sum for premiums for procuring good bills for remitting the Stamp Duties from Scotland to England. He concluded by moving for an Account of the mode of managing, and Charges for managing the Stamp Duties in Scotland for the last two years, distinguishing each particular Charge. Also for the authority under which the different extra and incidental expences were paid in England and Scotland. And also for an account of the premiums for procuring good bills for remitting the Stamp Duties in Scotland to this country.
Mr. Huskissonagreed that the premiums for procuring good bills for the purpose of transmitting the Duties from Scotland to England, were an unnecessary expence. It arose from this circumstance, that the Bills sent were at ten instead of forty or fifty days. It was not necessary, however, that the bills should be at ten days date, and in future this expence would be avoided. To explain that, till now, the existence of this mode of conducting the business was unknown, he should move for a letter from G. Harrison, esq. on that subject.
Mr. Whitbread's motions, and the additional motion of Mr. Huskisson, were then put and agreed to.

CAMPAIGN IN SPAIN.
Earl Temple,
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agreeably to notice, moved for copies of all Communications to the Medical Board in England by the Medical Staff of our Army in Spain, as to the state of the Sick and Wounded of that Army subsequent to their lauding in Spain; and for a Return of the amount of sick and wounded, who arrived in this country; also for a Return of the deaths among the sick and wounded in that Army after their return to this country. He grounded his motion on complaints said to have been made, that the same inadequate equipment was to be found in the Medical Department as in the whole of the other branches of that army.
Lord Castlereaghopposed the motion, on the grounds that there was no precedent to support it; that there was no occasion for it, as it could produce no public good; and that it could not afford any adequate information on the subject without a comparison with the sick in other armies at home. He had no wish to disguise, that from the great fatigue it had undergone, the army in question had had a greater proportion of sick than most other armies, and that a fever had prevailed on its first lauding in this country. By the exertion of the medical men, however, this had been got under; and he was happy to say that the army was now restored to perfect health. He saw no reason, therefore, having never heard any complaints on the subject alluded to by the noble lord, for departing from the general rule, particularly where a deviation from it was likely to produce injurious rather than beneficial effects.
Mr. Whitbreadwas of opinion, that where the country incurred great expence in paying an Apothecary-General, and a great Medical Staff, it became the duty of that house to see that the business for which these gentlemen were paid was properly attended to. He understood that complaints had been made, not only of a deficiency of medical aid in this army, but also of a deficiency of medical stores. He admitted that our army was greatly exposed to disease, both in the course of the campaign, and also on its return home, and that the detail of such distresses would be disastrous to contemplate. But, on the other hand, if complaints were made that these disasters proceeded from a want of medical aid, or from a deficiency of medical stores, he thought it impossible for the noble lord to refuse compliance with the motion.
Lord Castlereaghdeclared, that no such complaints had ever come to his ears, either directly or indirectly, and that this was the first intimation he had ever heard on the subject. He pledged himself to enquire into the fact.
General Tarletonsaid, it was true that no such return was called for when the troops returned from Dunkirk or the Helder; but then they were by no means so numerous as those upon the expeditions to Portugal and Spain, who also had suffered much greater hardships. As a soldier, he rejected the assertion of the noble lord, that such an inquiry had a tendency to damp the ardour of the troops. On the contrary, nothing could more highly excite that ardour, or more firmly attach them to the service, than to find a strict attention paid by their leaders to provide for their accommodations, their comforts, and their wants. No evil could result from the enquiry in the present case. If the rumour was unfounded, the fallacy would be proved, and the country satisfied.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercould not see that the papers moved for would throw any material light on the subject. The number of those killed and wounded in a campaign, or the number who died subsequently, either of their wounds, or the fatigue of a very rapid retreat in the midst of winter, would not, of itself, imply any charge against the medical board, or medical assistants. The house should be satisfied, or at least have reason to believe, that there was some loss occasioned by this cause, before they instituted inquiry. It, however, any regular complaint was made of actual loss from either of those causes, he would allow, that it would be proper that there should be an inquiry.
Mr. Freemantlethought the motion was proper upon other grounds. If any unusual number of men were lost upon any expedition, it was necessary to find out the cause. If, instead of the blame attaching to the medical board, it was found to have proceeded from bad arrangements in the transport service, and from the manner in which they were embarked; this also, though affecting ministers more than the medical board, was a proper subject of inquiry, and it was therefore necessary that the facts should be ascertained.
Mr. Wilberforcesaid, he would not feel comfortable in negativing a motion which proceeded from an anxiety to inquire into any thing which concerned the lives or health of those concerned in expeditions.
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He knew that in the administration of lord Melville, great improvements were made in the mode of embarking the troops, which improvements he supposed were still in force. He hoped, however, that if the motion were withdrawn, it would be perfectly understood that the subject would undergo a full inquiry out of doors.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, if there had been no particular inquiry hitherto upon that point, it was because be had never heard such a complaint made before; and there was nothing on the face of the papers to lead him to suspect any fault in this department. As the subject, however, had been mentioned in the house, he should make it his business to inquire particularly.
Earl Temple, in consequence of this promise of the noble lord, consented to withdraw his motion.