Sitting of 16 March 1809

MARINE MUTINY BILL.
The order of the day having been read for the house to resolve itself into a committee on the Marine Mutiny Bill,
Mr. Robert Wardrose to make some observations on what had fallen from an hon. bait, (sir C. Pole) on a former evening, respecting the increase of emolument to Pay-Captains of Marines, and some new naval regulations. The hon. bart. had slated that their labours and compensation were not at all proportionate. But the hon. bart., perhaps, did not know that the persons selected for such situations, were generally men who were unfit for other service. Their duties were by no means burthensome. It was not required that a Pay-Captain of Marines should serve afloat, or even aboard. The only case in which their attendance on board was required was, whenever courts martial took place. Under such circumstances he did not imagine the provision made for those officers was at all defective. With respect to the deductions from the pay of Marine Officers, they were applied, he said, to Chelsea Hospital, and the same benefits resulted to the officers of Marines, as to the Officers of the Army from such application. Whatever deduction was made from the pay of Marine Privates, was applied to Greenwich Hospital, and they were benefitted in the same manner by it as the Navy. Some stoppage in a Marine officer's pay was given generally to the Commissioners

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of the widows' pensions, for the Army: and of consequence, the widow of a Marine Officer derived the same advantage from that fund as the widow of an officer in the Army would. The lion, member said, that in his opinion the retired officers of Marines were, in every way, on the same footing with those in the Army.
Sir Charles Polesaid, if the hon. gent, had given this explanation as to the stoppages of pay before, it would have altered his own view of the subject. But he still held the same opinion with respect to the situation of the Pay Captains. He was well informed they had a regular ledger account to keep with every man and boy in the Marine service, for which they had no remuneration, although the Captains of Marine Artillery, for only paying their own companies, had 2s. per day additional pay. Besides those old officers, in any branch of the service, would have been entitled to majorities, and many of them now would have been old field officers. Any advantage, therefore, which could be given them, without great expence to the public, ought not to be witheld from a brave class of men, whose existence was scarcely known to their country except by their brilliant services in her cause.
Mr. Calcraftsuggested the propriety of appointing a distinct Compassionate List and Widows' Fund for the Marines. He expressed, also, a desire, that the clause which seemed to admit of the construction of which his hon. friend (sir C. Pole) complained, ought to be immediately amended.
Mr. Wellesley Polesaid it was the intention of the present Board of Admiralty to afford to the Marine Corps every practicable and reasonable indulgence. But there was a mistake with respect to the stoppages from the pay of Marine Officers in general for the Widow's Fund. No such stoppages were now made but from officers who retired on full pay; and the widows of the Marine Officers received their pensions at the War Office, paid by the public. With respect to the situation of the Pay Captains, he begged leave to refer the hon. bart. to a Petition presented by those very Officers to the Admiralty, when he himself was at that Board, praying for this very allowance, which the hon. bart. now sought to obtain for them, and the answer then given to their petition was, that the birth was a pretty good one, and it was very desirable it should continue to exist; but if they did not like it with full pay, and ex-
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emption from all other duty, they might take their turns of service: ever since, they had been pretty well satisfied to remain as they were. With respect to the Compassionate List, for which there was a Bill now in progress, it was only for such widows and orphans as were not entitled to any provision otherwise, nor was it ever thought of before the establishment of the present Admiralty Board; and it was his intention in the Committee on this Bill, to place the widows of Marine Officers on the same footing in this respect with those of the officers of the Navy and Army.
Mr. Hutchinsonconsidered it important to have the point, with respect to the contributions of the Royal Marines to Chelsea, fully sifted, as there was an unfavourable impression abroad on that subject.
Sir Charles Poledenied any recollection of such an application as that alluded to by the hon. member (Mr. W. Pole); at all events, he was perfectly certain, that during the whole time he was at the Admiralty, he never did give an offensive answer to any application, made either by an individual, or by any description of persons. There was nothing he considered more disgraceful than such conduct on the part of any man in office.
The Bill then went through the Committee.

CAMPAIGN IN SPAIN AND PORTUGAL.
The Earl of Liverpooladverted to what had been said on a former day by a noble lord (Moira), respecting a letter referred to in a dispatch from lord Castlereagh to sir Arthur Wellesley, dated the 15th of July, which purported to be an Instruction to sir Hew Dalrymple, to pledge the British government to assist the Junta of Seville with 10,000 men, and observed, that there appeared to have been a mistake in the date referred to as the date of the letter to sir Hew Dalrymple, namely, the 6th of July; but he had found the paper, which he conceived was referred to, and therefore laid it on the table.
The Earl of Moirawas satisfied that the paper produced was that which was meant. —The paper was ordered to be printed.
Earl Greygave notice, that he should move to-morrow se'nnight for the production of the Letters from Mr. Frere to sir John Moore, which he conceived to be of considerable importance, with a view to that full information which it was necessary the house should have before them. He should therefore move that the lords be summoned for that day. There was another subject which demanded the most serious consideration of their lordships, and which involved one of the greatest calamities that had ever befallen the country: he alluded to the advance and retreat of the British army in Spain. He could not, at present, ascertain whether the information

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on the table was sufficiently full, or whether it might be necessary to call for further papers; he could not therefore give notice of any day for the discussion of this subject, nor did he think the discussion could lake place before the Easter holidays, but he hoped no long period would elapse before the attention of their lordships was called to its consideration. He wished, however, now to put a question or two to the noble Secretary of State, and first; Whether there were included in the Papers on the table the Communications which took place between the British government and the temporary government of Spain, respecting the sending of troops there from this country? These communications were, he thought, peculiarly necessary for the purposes of explanation, and particularly to explain the causes of the delay which took place in the disembarking of our troops, after their arrival at Corunna? He also wished to be informed, whether any agreement had been entered into with the government of Spain respecting the landing of troops sent from this country at any other port than that of Corunna? as if there were that might serve to account, in some measure, for the delay in the landing at Corunna.
The Earl of Liverpool,with respect to the Letters of Mr. Frere, repeated, that they were private letters to sir John Moore, and were not transmitted home by that officer, nor referred to in any of his dispatches, public or private; neither had they any operation with respect to the march of the army. For these and other reasons, which he should state when the motion was made, he should resist the production of the Letters. With respect to Communications with the Spanish government, relative to the landing of troops from this country, it would be found, on reference to the dispatches from the Officers employed, that very full information was given upon that point, and with respect to any supposed agreement with that government to land troops at any other port, he could state, that no such agreement was made; there had been under other circumstances an agreement to send troops to another part of Spain; but this did not apply to the troops sent to Corunna, for whose landing no other port was appointed.
Earl Greycould not conceive that Letters sent by his majesty's accredited minister at Madrid, to the officer commanding the British army in Spain, could, in any sense, be considered as private letters, at
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it could scarcely be imagined that they must not, in some measure, influence the operations of that army.
The Earl of Darnleyurged the necessity of-producing the Letters alluded to.
The Lords were accordingly ordered to be summoned for to-morrow se'nnight.

PORTUGUESE REGENCY.
The Earl of Buckinghamshireadverted to what had been said on a former evening respecting the Regency in Portugal, and observed, that it appeared by the narrative of sir Hew Dalrymple that he had received a dispatch on the 3rd of September, dated the 19th of August, containing Instructions for the formation of the Regency. He thought it of considerable importance that this Letter should be produced, in order that the house might be aware of the nature of those Instructions, and of the motives which influenced them. It had been said by the noble Secretary of State on a former evening, that Portugal must follow the fate of the Peninsula, but surely much might have been done in Portugal to influence the fate of Spain, if measures had been adopted in that country satisfactory to the people, and calculated to rouse their patriotism and military ardour in defence of the common cause. He also wished to have produced the Correspondence with the Portuguese minister, and that it might be ascertained whether the measures adopted in Portugal were with his consent, or contrary to his wish? His lordship concluded by moving for the Letter to sir Hew Dalrymple, containing Instructions for forming the Regency.
The Earl of Liverpooladmitted that such Instructions were sent to sir H. Dalrymple: there must of course, in the execution of such a measure be something left to his discretion, but ministers were responsible for the measure. He could not, however, consent to the production of the dispatch alluded to. There were necessarily in it, allusions to the conduct of individuals, and particular instructions founded upon those comments which it would be improper to make public: upon another ground also he objected to it. Having reconquered Portugal for our ancient ally, it was the object of his majesty's government to reestablish, as far as possible, the government which had been established there by the legitimate authority of the sovereign. The Regency had therefore been formed as a provisionary government, until the decision of the Prince Regent of Portugal should be

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known upon the subject, information of what had been done having been sent to Rio Janeiro. No determination respecting it had yet been received from the Portugese government at the Brazils; and he, therefore, upon this and the other ground which he had stated, objected to the production of the paper, which, at the same time there was no necessity to produce.
The Earl of Rosslynthought, that ministers very ill supported the wish they had expressed, that the fullest information upon this subject should be laid before the house, when they refused the document now moved for, and which it was of great importance should be in the possession of their lordships.
Viscount Sidmouthprotested against the principle set up by the noble Secretary of State, that an admission of the fact stated, should serve instead of the document wished for, which contained the motives and circumstances of the transaction. If the patriotism and ardour of the Portuguese was less displayed than it had been in an earlier period of the contest, was it not of importance the house should have the means of ascertaining, if this was to be attributed to any measure of our own government, which had been unsatisfactory to the people?
Lord Harrowbycontended, that no sufficient: ground had been laid for the production of the paper, and that the admission of his noble friend, would answer every purpose that could be answered by the production of such extract of the document, as it might be deemed advisable to produce, and which would probably amount to nothing more than to what his noble friend had stated.
Earl Greyurged the necessity of having the paper before the house. It would indeed be making short work of their proceedings, if they were to accept the admission of a Minister instead of the papers elucidating the facts. They say we admit the act, but that was not enough, we must know the motives that led to the act, and the grounds on which it rested, and thus be enabled to judge of the proceeding, which it was impossible they could do from the mere admission of the noble Secretary of State.
Lord Mulgraveopposed the production of the paper, observing, that it would be an extraordinary proceeding to doubt the veracity of his noble friend; and that there might be considerable aukwardness if the
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house of lords should disapprove of the Regency which the government of Portugal should afterwards approve.
Lord Erskinedenied that there was any attempt to doubt the veracity of the noble Secretary of State; the unfitness of the paper to be produced, from its containing matter that ought not to be made public, was a matter of opinion, and not a matter of fact. He was decidedly of opinion, that the Paper ought to be produced for the information of the house.
The Earl of Buckinghamshirewas willing to admit the force of the objection that the paper contained matter that ought not to be made public, but could not admit that which rested upon the sufficiency of the admission of the fact by the noble earl.—The question was then put and the motion negatived.