Sitting of 2 June 1809

JUDGES' SALARES BILL.
The report was brought up from the Committee, to whom was referred a consideration of the expediency of increasing the Salaries of the Judges, and the resolutions agreed to.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid it was not his wish to oppose the increase of salary intended to the judges; but he gave notice that he should, in the progress of the bill, take the liberty of suggesting to the house some propositions on the subject, and particularly for preventing the sale of the office of clerk of assize, and also for preventing the Welsh Judges from holding other places of profit under the crown, and from occupying seats in parliament, both of which

859
he considered as incompatible with the independent and impartial administration of justice, as well as with the principle upon which the judges of England held their appointments. There was another point to which also he should take occasion to advert; namely, the great grievance under which the remote parts of the kingdom, and particularly the county of York, laboured under from the delay of justice, as being only visited by the judges of assize once in a year, and that only for a week; a circumstance extremely oppressive, not only to suitors in that great county, but to all persons there awaiting the course of justice, civil or criminal.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the judges, on going a circuit, certainly allotted by anticipation the time they should remain at the different towns on their respective circuits, according to their calculation of the time the business to be done at each would probably occupy; sometimes certainly the business occupied more time than they expected, and, rendered it impracticable to accomplish the whole, consistently with their arrangements made for other places; this, however, seldom happened; and where it was conceived the business would occupy more than the ordinary time, two judges went to York instead of one, whereby double the business was disposed of within the same period. It would be for the wisdom of parliament to make such arrangements on this head as might seem necessary hereafter; but he hoped the house would not clog the present bill by such regulations.
Mr. Bunkescoincided in the necessity of rendering all the judges equally independent of the crown with those of England, and therefore agreed in the propriety of precluding them from seats in parliament, as well as from other lucrative offices under the crown, in order that they might not only be removed from the influence of the crown in that house, but even from the suspicion of it; and he thought that a clause for this purpose, as well as for preventing the sale of the office of clerk of assize, ought to be inserted in the bill.
Mr. I. H. Brownedeprecated the idea of precluding the Welch judges from seats in that house, under any idea of their dependence on the crown, their places being for life. By such an exclusion, the house would be deprived of a valuable portion of talents: and he begged leave to instance the speech of one of those judges upon a late important occasion (that of
860
Mr. Burton, in the case of the duke of York) as one of the most lucid and eloquent ever uttered within the walls of parliament.
Leave was given to bring in a Bill pursuant to the Resolutions.

GAS LIGHT BILL.
Mr. Mellishmoved the third reading of the Gas Light bill, but at the same time prayed the indulgence of the house in allowing him to propose five new clauses; and that the house would take the debate upon the question that the bill do pass. He read the clauses in his place.
Sir J. Anstruthersaw no necessity in the present case to depart from the usual mode of proceeding; and hoped the house would not encourage a custom which had prevailed of late; namely, that of keeping back the principal clauses of private bills until the very last stage, and there proposing them by surprize upon the house.
Mr. D. Giddydelared himself decidedly averse to this bill; first, upon the general principle of granting chartered monopolies to any great body of men, to the preclusion of all competition. He would admit there might be some exceptions, in cases where great advantages to the public must manifestly arise, and where the fortunes of a few individuals must be inadequate to the accomplishment; in the case for instance of a great aqueduct, for the supply of a city, such as the New River, or of a canal, as the West India Docks, or such great undertaking, where the public advantage was clear, and the profits within some calculation. But upon such an undertaking as the present, where, however ingenious the plan, the practicability was problematical, and no estimation produced to prove it capable of adoption to any thing like the extent proposed, he was against the sanction of parliament being given to the measure, for the purpose of procuring immense subscriptions to an undertaking, which, on the face of the plan, seemed unmanageable by any act of directors; for it appeared that in the parish of St. James's alone, six different establishments would be required to furnish the light, and that the expence of lighting by Gas would cost 550 l. a year more than by oil. What, then, must the number of establishments be for all London, and where was the advantage to the public, supposing the plan practicable? It might turn out ultimately a second South Sea bubble. He could not at all events, agree to autho-

861
rize the company to receive subscriptions to an amount which would enable them to monopolize oil, coal, and the oilier materials which afforded the public an alternative, in order to drive them into the adoption of this scheme, the failure of which would entail disgrace upon the nation. He concluded by moving, that the bill, instead of now, be read the third time this day three, months.
The bill was also opposed by sir James Hill, Mr. Thompson, of Hull, Mr. Hall, and Mr. Babington.
Mr. Wilberforceopposed the bill. It was not necessary, he observed, to re sort to charters to procure capital. He would not encourage these gambling projects, by which men were to be princes or beggars, in a moment. He could not avoid directing the attention of the house to the extravagant expectations that were held out in a pamphlet recommending this plan. Among other impudent impositions, it was endeavoured to be shewn, that it would produce, in the course of a short time, no less than 10,201,741 l. 13 s. 2d. in the way of taxes. In the same statement, the annual profits, after a certain period, were calculated at two-hundred and ninety-nine millions. He considered it as one of the greatest bubbles that had ever been imposed on public credulity. He could compare it to nothing so well as the Ayr Bank, the loss by which was immense to the public, and had involved in difficulties, for years, most of the great landed proprietors of Scotland.
The house having divided, the amendment was carried by a majority of 52 to 38. The bill was consequently lost.

IRISH DISTILLERS' REGULATION BILL.
The house then went into a Committee on the above bill.
Mr. Parnellobjected to the nature of the punishment inflicted by the bill upon such persons as were concerned in unlicensed stills. For the first offence, corporal punishment was inflicted; for the second, transportation. He did not approve of such severity, especially as the system now acted on was so defective as to give encouragement to the offence. He would therefore move, That the clause inflicting such punishment should be omitted.
Mr. Bernarddisapproved of the entire system of laws that regulated the distilleries in Ireland. He was strengthened in his opinion, not only by the Irish commissioners of inquiry, but by a trial of the
862
present system for many years. He contended, that at no period were the illitit distilleries carried on to a greater extent than the last two years, which must alone be attributed to the present regulations. Though the right hon. gent. (Mr. Foster) would not at present agree to a change in the system, he was happy to hear him say even so much as that next session he would meet an inquiry on the subject. He (Mr. Bernard) pledged himself to bring it forward at an early period, and hoped to convince the house that a change of the system would be of considerable advantage to both countries, by encouraging agriculture, and increasing the revenue.
Mr. H. Martinsaid, that he had never yet heard of corporal punishment being inflicted for a fiscal offence; such a punishment, in such a case, was unknown to the constitution. Besides, the nature of the corporal punishment was not ascertained; whether it was to be flogging or hanging they did not know. Great care, he admitted, should be taken of the revenue; but not by subverting the principles of the British constitution.

THIRD REPORT OF THE FINANCE COM- MITTEE.
—The House having resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Third Report of the Finance Committee,
Mr. Martinrose and observed, that it was his anxious wish to impress upon the committee the propriety of attending to the principles of economy in every department of the public expenditure. The necessity, indeed, of such attention must he thought be obvious to every man who took the trouble of looking into the subject, and felt any solicitude for the interests of the country. The amount of our annual expenditure, and of our national debt, was enormous, while the declining produce of our revenue was notorious. According to the papers on the table, the produce of our permanent taxes was only 30,190,178 l. which, compared with the interests of our debt 31,3.50,000 l. left a deficit of above one million. How then, in the event of peace was this deficit to be supplied and our establishment to be defined, without permanently pledging the war taxes? If peace were to be concluded to-morrow, it would be impossible to make such a reduction in our establishment as to place us in any thing like the situation in which we stood before, either with regard to expence or revenue. The consequence would be, that they

863
would be compelled to have recourse to the Income and other war taxes, and reduced to the absolute necessity of making them a perpetual burthen upon the country. The continuance of the War-taxes in the event of peace, was a thing scarcely to be endured, even in idea; and yet he really was at a loss to divine to what other fund the country was to look for support in supplying the deficiencies of a declining revenue. He begged the committee to consider this point, upon which he was induced to dwell, with a view to urge more strongly the necessity of paying the utmost possible attention to every thing connected with economy. It was quite clear that every practicable arrangement should be made for that purpose, and with that impression upon Ins mind, he regretted much to observe that such a tardy disposition to promote the objects recommended by the Committee of Finance should have been manifested by those, who had the power of giving effect to the recommendations of that Committee. He had therefore felt it his duty to bring this business forward. Since he had given notice of it the right hon the Chancellor of the Exchequer had thought proper to propose a set of Resolutions in lieu of those which he had the honour of submitting to the house. Being anxious only for the object which his Resolutions had in view, he was not of course tenacious of terms or forms, and therefore he would interweave with his first Resolution, upon proposing which the discussion might arise, some of the words suggested by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Upon the adoption of these words he was the more determined, because in reviewing his own Resolution, he saw that it contained rather a sort of apology, for calling the attention of the house to a consideration of the principles of economy, than a direct assertion of the expediency of economising the public Expenditure in every possible case. The hon. member then proposed his first Resolution, which declared in substance, that it was peculiarly necessary in the present circumstances of the country, to attend closely to the principles of economy, and to make every practicable arrangement for the purpose of limiting the public expenditure.
This Resolution being put from the Chair,
Mr. Huskissonrose, to correct some mis-statements with respect to the finances of the country into which the hon. gent.
864
had fallen. He had stated that the amount of the Permanent Taxes was not equal to the discharge of the interest of the public debt. This was not the case. On the contrary, last year they had voted a surplus of between four and five million, out of the Consolidated Fund, independant of the other heavy charges to which that fund was liable.—The committee must recollect, that there had been voted for the year the sum of 3,500,000 l. as the surplus of the Consolidated Fund, together with 800,000 l. which remained unappropriated from the produce of that fund in the preceding year. Of course, it was quite a mistaken idea, that the permanent taxes were insufficient to defray the interest of the public debt. The hon. gent, had fallen into this mistake from his confounding the produce of the Permanent Taxes, and the Consolidated Funds.—The difference between the permanent charges, and the produce of the permanent taxes, was what was usually voted as the surplus of the consolidated fund, being an excess of produce above the charges. He need not, therefore, inform the Committee, that not only the interest of the public debt, and other permanent eharges were defrayed out of the permanent taxes, but many other items of expenditure connected with the various branches of the public service were charged upon the surplus of the consolidated fund. The permanent public charge was thirty-three millions. The supply to defray that charge amounted to thirty-seven millions. This statement could admit of no dispute, as it was proved by the returns on their table, and therefore it was impossible for the hon. gent. to say that the permanent taxes fell short of the annual expenditure. He did not deny that the produce of the revenue this year fell short of that of last year by about 300,000 l. but this was owing to the peculiar circumstances of the war; some falling, too, was to be expected this year, when compared with a year of great abundance, and could not possibly be such a cause of despondency as the hon. gent.'s statements went to make it. Mr. Huskisson then went into a detail of his financial operations of last year in mortgaging one million of the duties on malt and sugar to pay off Exchequer bills; instead of allowing it to go as usual to the consolidated fund. By this means there was an apparent defalcation in the present year to that amount, which did not exist in reality, as would be found in the re-

865
ceipt of the revenue for the year 1810. With regard to the Convoy duty, that must necessarily cease on the re-establishment of peace; but it did not follow that a considerable part of what was now raised under the head of Convoy duty might not then be continued under the denomination of Customs. There was no reason, then, for the despondency manifested by the hon. gentlemen, but this he did not state in opposition to the proposition that economy was desirable; while the burdens continued to be so great as they were, in his opinion, the house required no other incitement to alleviate them by every means in their power.
Mr. Martin, in explanation, stated, that he quoted from the returns laid before the house as to the funds to be relied upon in the event of peace. There was at least one part of the war taxes, namely, the Convoy duty, which must inevitably cease.
Lord Folkestoneconsidered that a fallacy had run through the whole of the statement made by the hon. gent. (Mr. Huskisson) as in his calculations he had not stated the produce of new taxes laid on in 1808 to the amount of 1,700,000 l. The noble lord was going on to point out this supposed inaccuracy, when
Mr. Huskissonrose and corrected his misconception of the matter. He shewed, that what the noble lord intended to consider as new taxes, were only a new arrangement of the assessed taxes already in existence.
Mr. Tierneysaid, he did not expect the debate would have taken the turn which it appeared to have done. He thought, however, his hon. friend who brought forward these Resolutions, had acted very right in drawing the attention of the house to economy. As, however, the hon. gent. who had just sat down had gone into figures on the occasion, he would beg leave to state a few similar facts from a paper he happened accidentally to have in his pocket, but which he never had an idea till that moment of mentioning on the present occasion. He calculated that, upon the arrival of peace, if it were to take place to-morrow, the amount of the public expenditure for the support of the army, navy, and miscellaneous charges, would, at least, be equal to 48 millions, to which add the interest upon exchequer bills, which would make it exceed 49 millions, and he would ask, how was this sum to be provided? The whole of the revenue, applicable to a peace establishment,
866
he estimated at about 38,500,000 l., and the deficit must, of course, be supplied either by new taxes, or by loans. According to his estimate the deficit would exceed 11 millions, but even according to the statement of his hon. friend, it would amount to more than 8 millions. This deficit would be to be met either by continuing the war taxes, or by a loan, or by raising new taxes; unless recourse were had to the Property Tax. Even suppose the other war taxes to be made perpetual, there must be a deficit of many millions, which must, if peace were to take place to-morrow, be provided for; and we must either make the property-tax perpetual, to the amount of live per cent, on income, or else have recourse to a loan. This statement he made with a view to demonstrate the propriety of attending to the principle of his hon. friend's Resolution.
Lord Miltonthought that the discussion was taking a turn entirely foreign from the subject of the Third Report upon Offices, and therefore suggested the propriety of proceeding to the matter in question. There would be no end to the debate, were the finances of the country to be made the subject, when the question was simply as to the necessity of economy.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercoincided in opinion with the noble lord, vet thought it but fair to say that his hon. friend (Mr. Huskisson) had not introduced the subject originally, but had only risen to correct the misstatements which had been made on the other side. As the hon. gent. (Mr. Martin) had declared his preference for his (Mr. Perceval's) first Resolution in opposition to his own, he could wish that instead of putting the committee to the necessity of previously negativing that Reselution, he would withdraw it, and suffer the other to be put in its stead. With respect to what the hon. gent, had said about comparing and contrasting the two strings of Resolutions seriatim, he could scarcely suppose that necessary, as his Resolutions were merely a new arrangement of those of the hon. gent.
Mr. Martinwithdrew his first Resolution, and that proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was put from the chair and agreed to. The following was the Resolution: "That the utmost attention to economy in all the branches of Public Expenditure which is consistent with the interests of the Public Service, is at all times the duty of this House."
Mr. Roserequested the attention of the

867
committee to some observations he had to submit to their consideration. Great pains, he said, had lately been taken out of doors to make it be believed that no attention had hitherto been paid to the retrenchment of the expenditure of the public money. He begged, however, to shew that the contrary was the case.

OFFICES SUPPRESSED SINCE 1782.
1782—Under Mr. Burke's Bill.— (22d Geo. 3. ch. 82.)

No.

Ann.

Value.

Above 500 l. a year,

-37

£.43,600

Under 500 l. a year,

-97

13,900

134

£57,500

Under Treasury Regulations in 1782–3.

Above 500 l. a year,

-3

2,156

Under 500 l. a year,

141

11,469

144

13,625

Making a Total of 278 Offices.£.71,125 Offices created to perform the duties of those suppressed,

62

10,909

In Annual Value

Reduction in the whole

Offices 216.

£,60,216

1783—Under the Exchequer Regulating Act. (23 G. 3. c. 82.).

Offices suppressed

4

£.6,000

And Six regulated

(a)

60,000

Savings under this Act on an average of Peace and War may be

66,000

Ann. Value

Making total Offices 220

£.126,000

1785—Under the Auditor's Act. (25 G. 3. ch. 52)

Two Offices suppressed (b)

44,000

Expence of New Board

11,500

32,741

Annal Value.

one Auditor of Hides in the Excise 400

400

Total saving by the three Offices

33,141

(a) The Auditor of the Exchequer, nett profit in 1782 was 19,880 l. a year; the Tellers present profits are three times the amount of that year. The Auditors fees would therefore have been now

£60,000

The four Tellers full fees would now have been

88,000

£148,000

Deduct Auditor's present Salary £4,000

14,800

Four Tellers, when they all fall in 10,800

Saving in time of war

£133,200

(b) This is very much under stated, the amount at 100 l. a million on the National Debt only would have been 60,000 l. a year.
The number of employments was not affected by these measures, as three new Commissioners for Auditing were appointed in addition to the two Comptrollers of Army Accounts.

In 1785—Were suppressed as they should fall in, Patent Offices in the Customs, which were actual sinecures, and usually given to private friends, not being considered as local patronage

No.196

Ann. Value£.42,000

The offices were not abolished by Law till 1798, by the 33 Geo. 3, ch. 86, but no appointments were made to them (except in two special cases) from 1781; and so early as 1791 there had 38 fallen in of the annual value of 10,600 l. a year.

In 1788—An arrangement was made by the Treasury which reduced the Officers of the Excise in their number

765

12,345

which saving was effected in the amount of salaries, although additions were made to those of the remaining officers to put them above temptation.

In 1799—The Offices of Auditors of the Land Revenue in England and Wales were abolished by Act 39 Geo. 3, ch. 83, after the deaths of the possessors

3

5,500

In 1799—The whole Salt Board and department abolished, and the duty transferred to the Excise; the total reduction, in consequence of which, after deducting the necessary appointment in the excise was

261

26,952

By this arrangement the Treasury lost the appointment of 459 offices, the new ones being in the gift of of the Excise.

RECAPITULATION.

No.

Ann. Value

1782—Under Mr. Burke's Act,

134

£57,500

1782–3—By the Treasury,

144

13,625

278

71,125

Do. Officers appointed to perform the duties of those suppressed.

62

10,909

Savings and reductions in the years above mentioned

216

60,216

1782–3—Under the Exchequer regulating Act, by abolition and reductions

4

66,000

1785—By the Auditor's Act, two offices for life of great value, the reversions of which were both open were abolished; but a new board was established (in which not one political friend was placed) the number of officers remained the same, but a saving was effected

33,141

1785—Patent Offices in the Custom

196

42,000

1799—Auditors of the Land Revenue, Sinecure Employments, the Reversion of one open

3

5,500

1799—Suppression of the Salt Boardand all its Officers; the whole in the gift of the Treasury

459

26,952

878

£.233,809

Deduct the Savings under Mr. Burke's Act, the Treasury Regulations in consequence of it: under the Exchequer Account

220

126,000

Savings made by Mr. Pitt's Measures alone

658

£.107,809

In the preceding total of 878 offices of the annual value of 233,809 l. suppressed since 1782, the offices suppressed in the Excise are not included, as they were in the gift of the Commissioners of that Revenue.
But it has been said the immense increase of Revenue in the war from 1792, had occasioned a proportionable number of offices and the necessary expence attendant thereupon; adding of course greatly to the influence of the Crown. In this instance however, the same attention to economy, and to avoid such an objection, will be found.

From 1792 to 1799, Taxes were imposed to the Amount of 7,682,000 l.

The Charges of management were.

6,955 l.

59 Officers appointed

Salaries discontinued

3,779

53 Do. abolished.

£3,176

Not one Employment was therefore added: and the increased charge of collection only 3,176 l. about 10d. in the 100 l. or 2.400 per Cent.
This statements made to 1709, because it has been in print many years, with Mr. Rose's name to it, shewing the particulars in each department, and has never been called in question.
There should however be opposed to these savings some new establishments created subsequent to Mr. Pitt's coming first into office. The Board of Controul, with salaries to the amount of 6,000 l. or 7,000 l. a year, defrayed by the East India Company. The Committee of Trade; no salaries except to the clerks who were paid under the board suppressed. The Transport Board, against which is to be set the suppression of the Sick and Hurt Board, and the commission occasionally paid to persons employed from favour, to take up ships in the former war; and the naval members of this Board, having no other duties to attend to, the advantages derived from their attention very much exceed the expence of the establishment. The Barrack Board and the officers under it, against which is to be set the savings aris-
870
ing from keeping the men and horses in barracks, instead of at quarters in public houses; much more than equal to the annual expence of this establishment, as appears by a Paper in the Appendix to a Pamphlet published by Mr. Rose on Finance, in 1799. Several Commissioners added for the examination of Public Accounts at home and in the West Indies; which may amount in the whole to 20,000 l. a year. And some smaller employments rendered necessary in different departments.
It is however to be observed, that the offices abolished were chiefly sinecures, disposed of as mere favours, and useful only as sources of influence; whereas the offices created have all been required by the actual necessities of the public service; they are all efficient, and cannot therefore be given to the same class of persons who filled those which have been abolished: of course, the influence derived from them is essentially different both in its degree and in its direction. Of the former, influence was almost the direct object: of the latter, it is only the collateral consequence.
Thus far there has been no reference to any thing but positive savings arising from the suppression of employments. Other measures, however, of higher importance than these were adopted both with respect to public economy and to influence.

1st, Loan and Lotteries.

2d, Contracts and Commission Business.

3d, Renewals of Crown Leases.

1st, Loans.—The influence derived from these extended infinitely beyond the six or eight persons to whom they were given on such advantageous terms as were privately settled between the minister and those persons; as each of those had on his list a considerable number of the friends of the minister; or the names of the latter were sent to the bank as original subscribers. In one year of the American war the loan was at a premium of 10 l. per cent. when the list was sent to the bank.
Suppose the saving by the mode adopted for the first time by Mr. Pitt, to be only * 3l. per cent, and the Loans 12,000,000 l. (unhappily one year,
* How very moderate an extirpate this is may be judged of by reference to the following premiums on Loans in the American war:—

1779

£.11

0

1780

8

10

1781

9

0

1782

13

10

1783

7

10

1797, the amount was 32,000,000 l.) the saving would be

£ 360,000

2d, Of the sums which would have been issued lo Contractors under the former system, it is very difficult to make an accurate computation; but it would be a low estimate to state it at 1,500,000 l and we can hardly suppose, when the Contracts were given as matter of mere favor without competition, that the profit was so low as 5l. percent

75,000

Probably thirty persons, making purchases at 150,000 l. each, at a profit of 2,500 l. These were chiefly members of parliament, till the Disabling Act in 1782; after that they were still given us mere favour.

3d. Renewals of Crown leases has already under the new system, produced an increase of

† 59,611

In addition to these heads under winch there was a mixture of influence and prodigality, an important article respecting the latter is to be added. In former wars certain parts of the naval services were paid in navy bills, which from the middle of 1779 to 1785 were at a discount of from 10 l. and 11 l. to 13 l. per cent. The non interest bills at 18 l. and 19 l. Those parts of the naval expenditure have amounted in the present war to upwards of 10,000,000 l. annually, which are now paid in 90 day bills at par, received as ready money, by which there is a saving of more than

1,000,000

1,494,611

Secret service Money to the Treasury was on an average of four years to 1725, 83,000 l. a year; in seven years to 1740, was 65,000 l.; in the nine first years of this reign was 54,000 l.; now limited to 10,000 l.:

Let the saving however, be estimated at only

45,000

£.1,539,000

Here, then, is a saving of move than a million and a half, in addition to the 233,000 l. before stated; without reckoning any thing for the saving in Ordnance Debentures, or the profits on the Lottery in time of peace, or indeed in war, by which the public now derives a large profit It is also to be observed that the Lottery tickets, like the loan, were privately disposed of to the friends of the minister, The saving upon the whole may truly be stated at more than 2,000,000 l. after deducting the 06,000 l. saved under Mr. Burke's act and Treasury proceedings in consequence of it, and the 00,000 l. under the Exchequer regulating act.
† This will go on increasing to more than 400,000 l. a year; the leases till 1794 were granted at low reserved rents and small fines; now they are on the sworn value.
872
And exclusive of the reduced influence of the Crown here stated; there were eighteen Parliamentary offices among those abolished in 1782.

Total 513

In England Members now holding place during pleasure

42

45

In Scotland Members now holding place during pleasure

2

100

In Ireland Members now holding place during pleasure

10

658

54

Of the above, two or three are in decided opposition to administration; and if the remaining 51 or 52 may be supposed to be influenced by their employments, it is not less likely that a number of gentlemen in opposition are influenced by their desire for office. He had heard a great deal of good times, but in this respect they were much lessened. He hoped gentlemen would not suppose what he had stated was for the purpose of checking the ardour of gentlemen in bringing forward resolutions like the present; he had no such intention; in what he had done he was actuated solely by what he thought his duty at the present moment. As to the Resolutions, as far as they went they appeared to him to be unexceptionable.
Mr. Crecveywas at a loss how to reconcile the Report which he held in his hand with the high panegyric which the right hon. gentleman had thought proper to pronounce upon his deceased friend. The right hon. gent. had gone so far back as the year 1713, when he came to treat of Pensions. If he had looked at later periods, he would have found that they had increased very much since the beginning of the present reign. From the Report under consideration it appeared, that the amount of the Pension List had been most enormously increased by Mr. Pitt. But this was a part of the case which the right hon. gent. had felt it convenient to overlook, although the subject of pensions was the first topic that offered itself in the Report. There was also a strong fact which the right hon. gent. happened to forget, but he would call it to his recollection. The right hon. gent. would, perhaps, remember when Mr. Pitt, and himself, induced that house to acquiesce in the grant of 9,000 l. a year to the duke of Gloucester, from the public purse, upon the allegation that the produce of the 4½per cent, duties, upon which that sum had been previously charged, was inadequate to payit. By this grant the public lost 105,000 l., yet soon after it was made, the "inadequate fund" was found a resource sufficient to provide

873
for several of Mr. Pitt's friends and relations. Indeed, but a short time afterwards pensions were charged upon it of 1,500 l. a year for Mr. Long; 1,200 l. a year for Mr. Huskisson; of 6 or 700 l. a year to each of Mr. Pitt's nieces, together with an allowance to lady Chatham; and no less than 1,500 l. a year to lady Grenville. With this fact, and several others of a similar nature in his recollection, he could not subscribe to the justice of the right hon. gent.'s panegyric upon Mr. Pitt's solicitude to curtail the public, expenditure, and to sacrifice to that object either personal connection or ministerial influence.
Mr. Rosevindicated the conduct of his right hon. friend in the transaction alluded to, and averred that the 4½ per cent, duties were inadequate to furnish the allowance granted to the duke of Gloucester at the time the proposition complained of by the hon. gent. was brought before the house. He proved that in the year 1720, independent of the relative value of money, the Pension List was greater than at this moment. He also corrected his statements with respect to the 4½ per cent. fund, and shewed the nature of its application, in paying off 172,000 l. of debt, after it was released from the payment of the duke of Gloucester's annuity. As to the provision which his right hon. friend had thought proper to make for his relations, he was sure that the country would justify that, when they considered the merit of a life devoted to their service, and the circumstances under which he died.
Mr. Wilberforcethought the poverty in which Mr. Pitt died was very much to his credit; he was a man who practised virtue most, and made the least display of it; he indeed "Did good by stealth, and blush'd to find it fame."
Mr. Creeveythought the crown had no title to the revenue arising from the 4½ per cent. The question was, what had the practice been? 20,000 l. had been advanced in aid of the Civil List, which was the first sum ever thus appropriated, in 1791. He wished to know if any law could be pointed out to his notice that he might have overlooked, authorising the crown to give pensions out of that fund. He condemned the giving political pensions from this fund, which ought to be only appropriated to the salaries of government.
Mr. Longwould by no means admit this principle; it would be found that in the reign of George I. pensions had been
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given from this 4½ per cent. fund, to many persons, and among the rest to lord Hobart, governor of Jersey. In the reign of George II. it was also applied to such purposes, as from 70 to 80,000 l. had been drawn from it in aid of the Civil List, and in the year 1762, a pension of 3,000 l. per annum was given to the late lord Chatham. No Attorney or Solicitor General, or Lord Chancellor, since that time, could be named who had not been a party in such grants. It did not come within the spirit of Burke's Act; for Mr. Burke himself expressly stated, in one of his pamphlets, that he had a view only to the Civil List in his regulations, and that he knew of the 4½ per cent. fund, but thought it best to leave that as a reward for merit. The hon. gent. had alluded to the annuity granted to the duke of Gloucester in 1786. What did parliament do on that occasion? Did they say such a grant was contrary to Mr. Burke's act? No, it had ever been admitted that that fund was a part of the hereditary revenue, and consequently at the disposal of the crown. The attention of every Committee of Finance was turned to the subject, and they all sanctioned the legality of this application.
Mr. Creeveysaid, it was stated as a part of the public revenue.
Mr. Rosewas of opinion it was part of the customs.
Mr. Creeveystated, that lord Grenville and lord Harrowby (then Mr. Ryder) had, in the Report of a Finance Committee, reported the 4½ per cent. funds as public money.
Mr. Rosesaid, that he could not see, even admitting for a moment the truth of the statement, how it bore upon the question.
Sir J. Newportsaid, that as his hon. friend had introduced this subject before the house, he hoped some gentleman for Ireland would institute a similar exposition with respect to that country, for he had a statement to make to the committee with regard to the financial arrangements of Ireland, at one time, that would, he apprehended, astonish gentlemen who heard him, and incline them to think that such an exposition would not be unnecessary. In the administration of a noble lord who was now a cabinet minister, he meant the Lord Privy Seal (lord Westmoreland), it was enacted by parliament, that until the Pension List establishment for Ireland should be reduced to 80,000 l. the grants of pensions

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should not in anyone year for each year exceed 1,200 l. The act to this effect passed in the latter part of the month of July, in the year 1793, but was not to take effect till the 2.5th of March, 1794. Now, the Committee would scarcely believe, that in the interval of only seven months the enormous sum of 13,000 l. had been added to the amount of pensions upon the Irish establishment in the administration of that noble lord, so that it appeared from the Returns made to that house, a copy of which he held in his hand, that, a leading member of the present cabinet had, when Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, taken advantage of the interval between the passing of a law and the time of its taking effect, to violate the spirit of that very enactment [Hear! hear!]: that so far from any attempt to reduce the Pension List; so far from confining the grants for any one year within 1,200 l. he had actually within seven months imposed upon the establishment the enormous burthen of 13,000 l. and thus disposed of the amount of ten years pensions within the short period of seven months. The gross amount was 13,500 l., but from this he excluded lord F. Campbell's pension, and that to the Burgh family, leaving a sum amounting to 13,000 l. and it would further appear from the accounts, that in the course of five years, from 1790 to 1795, the sum of 39,000 l. a year was added to the public burdens in that country with regard to pensions. The time was now fast approaching when, by deaths, it was expected that the Pension List would be brought within the due limits; but whether that expectation would prove well founded or not, he had no hesitation in saying, that it was his intention, early in the ensuing sessions, to call upon parliament to continue the limitation of the grant of pensions to 1,200 l. annually, until the establishment should be reduced to 30,000 l. or at most to 40,000 l. He stated farther that the 1,200 l. in one year was disposed of between three members of that house, late or present.
Mr. Fosterdenied that in the vice-royalty alluded to so much money had been granted in pensions. Deducting the pensions to the Burgh family and to lord Frederick Campbell, instead of 13,000 l. only 4,000 l. would appear to have been given.
Sir J. Newportrepeated his assertion, which was verified by the returns of the house of commons, and even ex-
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pressly deducting the pensions now mentioned, 13,000 l. annually would be found to have been granted.
Mr. Whitbreaddeclared it was not his intention to enter into the former details of the debate. He was very ready to confess that Mr. Pitt had laid many perspicuous financial statements before the house, and believed it to be his object, at one period, to attain the utmost perfection he could in the science of finance. Whether he deviated from that determination since the year 1793, it was for the house to judge. He certainly failed in some of his calculations, and as an instance the committee might refer to his prophecy in the year to which he alluded, that we should have a fifteen years peace. While he paid every tribute to the disinterestedness of his private life, and praised the poverty in which he died, still he must say that the war had been carried on with the utmost prodigality. In the barrack department alone the extravagance was amazing. Notwithstanding all that had been said by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose) to prove that every attention had been paid to economy, he still thought, that there were grounds for complaints of the most serious nature, when the great waste of the country's resources was considered which had been discovered in every branch of the war department. He thought it something extraordinary, that it should be said the hon. gent. received that pension still, which it was understood was to be given up by a person holding a situation of more than 2000 l. a year. He did not know that he received more, but he supposed that at least his income amounted to that sum, and did not doubt but the hon. gent. would explain the matter in the most satisfactory manner. He did not intend to enter into the disputed question, as to the 4½ per cent. fund, but yet he thought both the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Long) and Mr. Burke himself most incompetent judges upon the subject, because they were themselves renters from that very fund. The corruptions of former times had been very much dwelt upon in contradistinction to the purity of the present; and much allusion had been made to the degradation of that house, at an early period, when bribery was common, and doles of the public money were dealt out to the members of that house by the government. Now, he had no doubt, even in those corrupt days, when reform and retrenchment

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were proposed, that a loud outcry was raised on the occasion, and the integrity of contractors, &c. highly vaunted. Much it was said, had been corrected since; but much, he contended, had been left behind to correct; many branches of expenditure to be retrenched, and much extravagance to be curtailed. Now, because some men were pure, it was not necessarily to be inferred that all were so, and though he was of course inclined to pay the highest compliment to the patriotic forbearance of the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Rose), still he was not sure that every one else deserved the same eulogium. The right hon. gent. had touched, indeed, but slightly, on the subject of the Barrack Board, that great source of public extravagance, and still less on the abuses of the Transport Board, where such vast sums of money were so unnecessarily squandered. [Mr. W. Pole said across the table, he did not believe it.] The hon. gent. was welcome not to believe it if he chose, but he (Mr. Whit-bread) believed it, and thought it was a question even whether that board ought to be allowed to exist at all or not. Some time since a noble lord, member for Westminster, whose gallant and patriotic achievements were the theme of every man's panegyric, (lord Cochrane), was of opinion, that the influence of the crown in that house was greater than it ought to be, and moved for a return of all the members holding offices, sinecures, or pensions under government. That motion was afterwards made more general, and the returns to it referred to a committee, the Third Report of which committee was then before them. The influence of the crown he still thought greater than it ought to be in that house. He certainly did not mean to say that no officer of the Crown should sit in that house, but he thought the error too much on the other side. There were for instance the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the other ministers of state, who might have seats in parliament; but it was not necessary for all the lords of the treasury, who, indeed, were generally silent in the house. Secretaries of the treasury may also have a seat in the house. Of one of these gentlemen he did not mean to speak otherwise than in panegyric, for his close and accurate habits of business, but the other was absolutely a mute, of whom they heard nothing, but saw a great deal. The Lords of the Admiralty, perhaps, also ought to
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be excluded, but to the liveliness of one of them, he must pay his tribute. One person perhaps connected with the board of controul was requisite in the house. Of its President he could not speak, for he was at present so full of his Irish affairs, that in fact the office was vacant. Persons holding that office were understood to act gratuitously on their first appointment, but that idea was soon done away, and lord Melville received much in the shape of salary before he was created Treasurer of the Navy, and then created two new offices for the education of young statesmen under him. It was not exactly conformable to Mr. Pitt's practise, for young men who were but a few years in office to take pensions for life. He did not wish to speak of living persons, but he must be excused for the allusion, as so many were mentioned in the Report. He did not see the propriety of giving persons pensions for life after being in office two or three years. Men of talent would be found to fill the principal offices of the state, even though they were not thus pensioned off. Mr. Pitt, whom the gentlemen opposite professed to make their model, did not act so. He did not seek some snug thing for himself as soon as he got into power. He (Mr. Whitbread) thought the influence of the crown in that house ought to be less than it was, and would therefore, in order to bring the question fairly before the committee, more as an amendment on the Resolution, that the words "And as a further limitation, be it provided, that no person shall hold a seat in this house having a sinecure or other private place of emolument under I the crown," should be added. He wished to say a word or two on those very respectable members, the Welsh Judges. Though he thought them less exceptionable than others, yet there was a something in their sitting there which offended so far against the principle he wished to establish, that he would submit it to the house, whether or not they ought still to be considered as eligible to hold seats in parliament.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerconsidered this amendment of the hon. gent. as founded upon a most aristocratic principle; it would throw the offices of the crown into the hands of those alone who could, from their property, very well dispense with their salaries. He opposed to the theory of the hon. gent. the constant practice of that house, and con-

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tended that at all periods it proved the best bulwark of the liberties of the people, which plainly proved the fallacy of the argument that went to deny that it could be unduly influenced while officers of the crown had seats in parliament; for officers of the crown had always sat in it. The exclusion of magistrates of all descriptions, in his opinion, might be as well demanded as that of the Welsh Judges; for they never exercised their judicial functions except on circuit. He declared it his intention to give his utmost opposition to the amendment.
Mr. W. Smithcould not think the true interests of the country were consulted in pensioning off every subordinate officer of government after serving the public two or three years.
Mr. Ponsonbywas of opinion that the Resolution of his hon. friend was most important in itself, and of the greatest moment to the constitution of the country. For his own part, he was inclined to the Amendment of his hon. friend, and if it was to be pushed to a division, should vote for it. But he wished to submit it to his hon. friend, whether it would not be desirable for him to adopt the same course respecting his Amendment which had been pursued with respect to the former Resolutions, namely, to suffer it to lie on the table for a few days, in order to allow gentlemen an opportunity of considering its contents. The question was one of great moment and delicacy, and required to be looked at gravely, with a due regard to the constitution of this empire. Nothing could be so hostile to the existence of union and tranquillity, as the division of the legislature into three estates, unless they were duly balanced: but the great perfection of the constitution of this country was, that no class of the community was excluded from its just share in the deliberations of the state.— Many bills had been passed with a view to prevent abuses; but the present question, if any, deserved the peculiar attention of that house. If he were to be called on to give a vote on the present question, he would support the Amendment of his hon. friend, though he should be much better pleased, if his hon. friend would consent to put off the discussion of it for a few days, as had been done when the Resolutions were at first proposed, in order to give the house an opportunity of comparing the Amendment with those Resolutions.
Mr. Lyttletonconcurred in the suggestion of his right hon. friend, and recommended to the committee to defer the further consideration of the subject until both the Amendment and the original Resolution should be in the hands of gentlemen.
Mr. H. Thorntoncontended, that as the navy, the army, the ordnance, the public debt, and every thing connected with the management of public affairs had considerably increased, so also must the influence of the crown have been proportionably extended. That influence could not but be communicated to a great number of members of parliament. It must have continued to work in secret and in silence, and it was the duty of that house to watch and counteract it. Having observed the progress of that influence, he was ready to agree in the principle of the motion before the house, or in any other measure that was likely to lead to a gradual and temperate reform of abuses.
Lord Folkestonewas ready to enter into the discussion of the question at that moment, and would vote for the Amendment, though he had no hesitation to accede to the suggestion of putting off the discussion to another occasion. He could not, however, avoid saying, that the object of all former times had been to curtail the influence of the crown, and to prevent placemen from having seats in that house.
Mr. Whitbread, though he wished for a decision upon the subject of his Amendment, had yet no objection to put off the final discussion to a future day. He saw no reason why chief justices should be made Peers, nor why Welsh Judges should be allowed to become members of that house. Neither could he admit that, because a person abandoned his profession, he should have a provision for life made for him for having abandoned it. He was ever ready to admit that a person, worn out in the service of his country, ought to be adequately provided for; he contended that no such extravagant compensation, as had been given to Mr. M'Donald for quitting his profession to become a Commissioner of American property, ought, under any such circumstances, to be granted. Such grants were contrary to the plans of Mr. Burke, Mr. Pitt, and lord Shelburne. The increase of the influence of the crown would be obvious, when it was considered how much the army, the navy, and every other branch of the public expenditure

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had been augmented. He had no objection to suffer his Amendment to lie on the table for a few days, or to withdraw it altogether, with a view to bring it forward as a separate motion on Thursday next.
Lord H. Pettyentered into a justification of the appointment and remuneration of Mr. M'Donald, and concurred in the propriety of adjourning the discussion of the Amendment to a future day.
Mr. Wellesley Polerose to explain a statement in the Supplement to the Third Report, which concerned him. When lord Wellesley went to India, it was thought advisable to insert the hon. member's name in the patent of the office of Remembrancer of the Exchequer, in case the office should become vacant while lord Wellesley was absent; but the hon. member reaped no emolument whatever from this arrangement, and was very much surprised to find his name mentioned in the Supplement to the Third Report in rather an ambiguous manner. This mistake did not originate with the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and the hon. gent. had indeed made a statement to the committee, disclaiming the receipt of any emolument in consequence of the arrangement the hon. member had explained.
Mr. H. Thorntonreplied, that the hon. member's name was introduced into the Report, in a manner that was perfectly unambiguous; for in one passage, after giving the hon. member's name, it expressly stated, that the profits were understood to belong only to lord Wellesley; and in another, after giving the hon. member's name conjointly with that of lord Wellesley, it was added, that the profits were supposed to belong to lord Wellesley.
The first Resolution was then read, and carried without a division.
Mr. Whitbreadproposed to make a separate motion to the house of his amendment, on Thursday next.
Mr. D. Giddythen left the chair, and reported progress to the house. The Report was ordered to be taken into further consideration on Thursday next.

PAPERS RELATING TO AMERICA.
Mr. Secretary Cunning presented the following
PAPERS

  RELATING TO AMERICA.
  No. I.—DISPATCH from Mr. Secretary Canning to the hon. D. M. Erskine; dated Foreign Office, 23rd Jan. 1809.
  Sir; If there really exist in those individuals who are to have a leading share in the new administration of the United States, that disposition to come to a complete and cordial understanding with Great Britain, of which you have received from them such positive assurances; in meeting that disposition, it would be useless and unprofitable to recur to a recapitulation of the causes from which the differences between the two governments have arisen, or of the arguments already so often repeated in support of that system of retaliation to which his majesty has unwillingly had recourse.—That system his majesty must unquestionably continue to maintain, unless the object of it can be otherwise accomplished.—But after the profession on the part of so many of the leading members, of the government of the United States, of a sincere desire to contribute to that object in a manner which should render the continuance of the system adopted by the British government unnecessary, it is thought right that a fail-opportunity should be afforded to the American government to explain its meaning, and to give proof of its sincerity.— The extension of the interdiction of the American harbours to the ships of war of France as well as of Great Britain, is, as stated in my former dispatch, an acceptable symptom of a system of impartiality towards both Belligerents; the first that has been publicly manifested by the American government.—The like extension of the Non-importation act to other Belligerents is equally proper in this view. These measures remove those preliminary objections which must otherwise have precluded any useful or amicable discussion.— In this state of things, it is possible for Great Britain to entertain propositions, which, while such manifest partiality was shewn to her enemies, were not consistent either with her dignity or her interest.—From the report of your conversations with Mr. Madison, Mr. Gallatin, and Mr. Smith, it appears; 1st. That the American government is prepared, in the event of his majesty's consenting to withdraw the Orders in Council of January and November 1807, to withdraw contemporaneously on its part the interdiction of its harbours to ships of war, and all Non-intercourse and Non-importation acts, so far as respects Great Britain; leaving them in force with respect to France, and the powers which adopt or act under her Decrees; 2dly. (What is of the utmost importance, as

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  precluding a new source of misunderstanding, which might arise after the adjustment of the other questions). That America is willing to renounce, during the present war, the pretension of carrying on in time of war all trade with the enemy's Colonies, from which she was excluded during peace; 3dly, Great Britain, for the purpose of securing the operation of the Embargo, and of the bonâ fide intention of America to prevent her citizens from trading with France, and the powers adopting and acting under the French Decrees, is to be considered as being at liberty to capture all such American vessels as may be found attempting to trade with the ports of any of these powers; without which security for the observance of the Embargo, the raising it nominally with respect to Great Britain alone, would, in fact, raise it with respect to all the world. —On these conditions his majesty would consent to withdraw the Orders in Council of January and November 1S07, so far as respects America.—As the first and second of these conditions are the suggestions of the persons in authority in America to you, and as Mr. Pinkney has recently (but for the first time) expressed to me his opinion, that there will be no indisposition on the part of his government to the enforcement by the naval power of Great Britain of the regulations of America with respect to France, and the countries to which these regulations continue to apply, but that his government was itself aware, that without such enforcement those regulations must be altogether nugatory; I flatter myself that there will be no difficulty in obtaining a distinct and official recognition of these conditions from the American government.—For this purpose you are at liberty to communicate this Dispatch in extenso to the American Secretary of State,— Upon receiving through you, on the part of the American government, a distinct and official recognition of the three above-mentioned conditions, his majesty will lose no time in sending to America a minister fully empowered to consign them to a formal and regular Treaty.—As, however, it is possible that the delay which must intervene before the actual conclusion of a Treaty may appear to the American government to deprive this arrangement of part of its benefits, I am to authorize you, if the American government should be desirous of acting upon the agreement before it is reduced into a regular form,
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  either by the immediate repeal of the Embargo, and the other acts in question, or by engaging to repeal them on a particular day) to assure the American government of his majesty's readiness to meet such a diposition in the manner best calculated to give it immediate effect.— Upon the receipt here of an official Note, containing an engagement for the adoption by the American government of the three conditions above specified, his majesty will be prepared, on the faith of such engagement, either immediately (if the repeal shall have been immediate in America) or on any day specified by the American government for that repeal, reciprocally to recal the Orders in Council, without waiting for the conclusion of the Treaty; and you are authorized, in the circumstances herein described, to take such reciprocal engagement on his majesty's behalf. I am, &c.
  GEORGE CANNING.
  No. II.—NOTE from Mr. Erskine to the Secretary of State of the United States; dated Washington, April 17th 1809.
  Sir; I have the honour to inform you, that I have received his majesty's commands to represent to the government of the United States, that his majesty is animated by the most sincere desire for an adjustment of the differences which have unhappily so long prevailed between the two countries, the recapitulation of which might have a tendency to impede, if not, to prevent, an amicable understanding.— It having been represented to his majesty's government, that the congress of the United States, in their proceedings at the opening of the last session, had evinced an intention of passing certain laws which would place the relations of Great Britain with the United States upon an equal footing, in all respect?, with the other Belligerent powers, I have accordingly received his majesty's commands, in the event of such laws taking place, to offer on the part of his majesty, an honourable reparation for the aggression committed by a British naval officer in the attack on the United States frigate, Chesapeake.— Considering the act passed by the congress of the United States, on the first of March (usually termed the Non-intercourse act) as having produced a state of equality in the relations of the two Belligerent powers, with respect to the United States, I have to submit, conformably to my instructions, for the consideration of

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  the American government, such terms of satisfaction and reparation as his majesty is induced to believe will be accepted in the same spirit of conciliation with which they are proposed.—In addition to the prompt disavowal made by his majesty, on being apprised of the unauthorized act committed by his naval officer, whose recal, as a mark of the king's displeasure, from an highly important and honourable command, immediately ensued, his majesty is willing to restore the men forcibly taken out of the Chesapeake, and, if acceptable to the American government, to make a suitable provision for the unfortunate sufferers on that occasion. I have the honour to be, &c. D. M. ERSKINE.
  No. III.—LETTER from the Secretary of Stale of the United States to the hon. D. M. Erskine; dated Department of State, April 17th 1809.
  Sir; I have laid before the President your Note, in which you have, in the name and by the order of his Britannic majesty, declared that his Britannic majesty is desirous of making an honourable reparation for the aggression committed by a British naval officer in the attack on the United States frigate, the Chesapeake; that in addition to this prompt disavowal of the act, his majesty, as a mark of his displeasure, did immediately recal the offending officer from an highly important and honourable command; and that he is willing to restore the men forcibly taken out of the Chesapeake, and, if acceptable to the American government, to make a suitable provision for the unfortunate sufferers on that occasion.—The government of the United States having, at all times, entertained a sincere desire for an adjustment of the differences which have so long and so unhappily subsisted between the two countries, the President cannot but receive with pleasure, assurances that his Britannic majesty is actuated by the same disposition, and that he is ready, in conformity to this disposition, to make atonement for the insult and aggression committed by one of his naval officers, in the attack on the United States frigate the Chesapeake.—As it appears at the same time, that in making this offer, his Britannic majesty derives a motive from the equality now existing in the relations of the United States with the two Belligerent powers, the President owes it to the occasion, and to himself, to let it be understood, that this equality is a result
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  incident to a state of things growing out of distinct considerations.—With this explanation, as requisite as it is frank, I am authorized to inform yon, that the President accepts the note delivered in the name and by the order of his Britannic majesty; and will consider the same with the engagement therein, when fulfilled, as a satisfaction for the insult and injury of which he has complained.—But I have it in express charge from the President to state, that, while he forbears to insist on a further punishment of the offending officer, he is not the less sensible of the justice and utility of such an example, nor the less persuaded that it would best comport with what is due from his Britannic majesty to his own honour. I have, &c. &c.
  R. SMITH.
  No. IV.—LETTER from Mr. Erskine to Mr. Smith; dated Washington, April 18th 1809.
  Sir; I have the honour of informing you, that his majesty, having been persuaded that the honourable reparation which he had caused to be tendered for the unauthorized attack on the American frigate Chesapeake would be accepted by the government of the United States in the same spirit of conciliation with which it was proposed, has instructed me to express his satisfaction should such a happy termination of that affair take place, not only as having removed a painful cause of difference, but as affording a fair prospect of a complete and cordial understanding being established between the two countries. The favourable change in the relations of his majesty with the United States, which has been produced by the act (usually termed the Non-intercourse act) passed in the last session of congress, was also anticipated by his majesty, and has encouraged a further hope that a reconsideration of the existing differences might lead to their satisfactory adjustment. On these grounds and expectations I am instructed to communicate to the American government, his majesty's determination of sending to the United States an envoy invested with full powers to conclude a treaty on all the points of the relations between the two countries. In the mean time, with a view to contribute to the attainment of so desirable an object, his majesty would be willing to withdraw his Orders in Council of January and November 1807, to far as respects

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  the United States, in the persuasion that the President would issue a proclamation for the renewal of the intercourse with Great Britain; and that whatever difference of opinion should arise in the interpretation of the terms of such an agreement, will be removed in the present negotiation. I have the honour to be, &c.
  D. M. ERSKINE.
  No. V.—LETTER from Mr. Smith to the hon. D. M. Erskine; dated Department of State, 18th April 1809.
  Sir; The Note, which I had the honour of receiving from you this day, I lost no time in laying before the President, who, being sincerely desirous of a satisfactory adjustment of the differences unhappily subsisting between Great Britain and the United States, has authorized me to assure you, that he will meet, with a disposition correspondent with that of his Britannic majesty, the determination of his majesty to send to the United States a special envoy, invested with full powers to conclude a treaty on all the points of the relations between the two countries. I am further authorized to assure you, that in case his Britannic majesty should, in the mean time, withdraw his Orders in Council of January and November 1807, so far as respects the United States, the President will not fail to issue a proclamation, by virtue of the authority and for the purposes specified in the eleventh section of the statute commonly called the Non-in-tercourse-act. I have the honour to be, Sir, &c. R. SMITH.
  No. VI.—LETTER from Mr. Erskine to Mr. Smith; dated Washington, April 19th 1809.
  Sir; In consequence of the acceptance by the President, as stated in your letter dated the 18th instant, of the proposals made by me on the part of his majesty, in my letter of the same day, for the renewal of the intercourse between the respective countries, I am authorized to declare that his majesty's Orders in Council of January and November 1807, will have been withdrawn, so far as respects the United States, on the 10th day of June next. I have the honour to be, &c.
  D. M. ERSKINE.
  No. VII.—LETTER from the hon. Robert Smith to the hon. D. M. Erskine; dated Department of State, April 19th 1809.
  Sir; Having laid before the President
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  your note of this day, containing an assurance that his Britannic majesty will, on the 10th of June next, have withdrawn his Orders in Council of January and November 1807, so far as respects the United States, I have the honour of informing you, that the President will accordingly, and in pursuance of the eleventh section of the statute commonly called the Non-intercourse act, issue a proclamation, so that the trade of the United States with Great Britain may on the same day be renewed, in the manner provided in the said section. I have the honour to be, &c.
  R. SMITH.

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS' BILL.
—The house having gone into a Committee on this Bill,
Lord Erskinesaid, he trusted he had how made those amendments to the bill, which would render it less objectionable in the opinion of those noble lords, who on a former day, had expressed their sentiments upon this intended measure. The preamble, "Whereas, it has pleased Almighty God," &c, he wished to continue in those words, which had presented themselves to his mind as the most appropriate to express its introduction. An imperfect obligation of duty was thereby enjoined, which, as he had before observed, coming sanctioned by the authority of their lordships, would not fail to have its due weight upon the people of this country. "No man," said his lordship, "more than myself can pay reverence to the name of God, nor is it used with any impropriety on this great and important occasion." The words which defined the acts of cruelty, he had so altered, as, in his mind they would meet with the approbation of those who very prudently were anxious that great caution should guard the operation of this act. In that part of the bill which was now confined to beasts of draught and burden, he had altered the words to "wound, cut, maim, and with wanton and malicious cruelty, should beat or abuse;" and he trusted the house would feel the propriety of inserting the word "abuse," coupled with the words preceeding; because, upon reflection, several acts of cruelty, requiring the interposition of such a statute, would not easily be comprehended under any other term. "I, one day," continued lord Erskine, "in going along Coventry-street, was struck with honor and disgust at the shocking scene of cruelty which presented itself to my observation. There was a cart, loaded with greens to a most unmerciful extent, drawn by one horse.
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The poor animal was in such a state that its skin alone covered its bones; and, what was more shocking upon nearer observation I perceived there was no cart-saddle to prevent the chain from cutting through the skin of the animal's back; and, upon still nearer inspection, I saw the blood and matter descending its side. Besides this, the fetlock-joint was dislocated, the skin broken, and, upon every exertion of this wretehed creature, the bone was visible to the eye. My attention being peculiarly extended to the unhappy object's sufferings, I accosted the man who was driving the cart, upon his coming up to the place, and remonstrated with him about the misery of the horse's situation. I was answered with nothing but abuse; which generally is the fate of those who interpose their humanity on such an occasion, The man inquired if I would give him another? I offered him a guinea, provided he would part with the horse. "Why," says the man, "a guinea, Sir! I can work this horse three weeks longer, and after that I can sell him to the slaughter-house, and thereby make four or five pounds." I wish that your lordships would attribute to my conduct no more than the discharge of my duty; the act I performed, was, to my mind, unavoidable; I followed the man and purchased the beast! But this mode of relief cannot always be applied to the sufferings of animals, which meet our eye almost every day, and in almost every street of this metroplis. It is also in cases like that to which I have alluded, the word "abuse" will most aptly apply; and, when preceded by the other words I have adverted to, there can be no danger of the operation. Sorry should I be if any injury could possibly arise from this penal statute, and it is my anxious wish that every precaution should be adopted which may prevent any hazard of the liberty of the subject."—His lordship then stated, that there was another clause by itself, and by way of amendment, which he had framed for the better prevention of cruelty to other cattle, while proceeding to a fair or market, by means of cutting, maiming, and houghing. The house would be astonished if they knew all the cases which had been described to him by letters from magistrates, who particularly desired clauses to be inserted for the prevention of each particular case. He then observed, "During the thirty years of my parliamentary life, I never introduced any al-

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teration in the law, or any new act of parliament. I possess no ostentation in coupling a statute with my own name; and, on the present occasion, your lordships will, I trust, give me credit for being actuated by the purest of motives (Hear! hear!). I have no desire that the measure in contemplation should be considered as orignating from myself. I would rather the people of this country should consider it as proceeding from the unanimous concurrence of your lordships, whose authority will give clue weight to its operation. On this account, I feel desirous, so to alter and amend the bill, that it may meet the unanimous approbation of this house, and be less likely to incur any objection in another place. After all, if this legislative measure should be attended with any injurious consequences, now unforeseen, I pledge my honour, that I will be one of the first to propose such alterations as shall prevent their recurrence.— There is one point more to which I beg your lordships' attention; although my lords, I have seen with regret the growing evil of cruelty to animals in this land, and have thought it expedient to introduce the bill before you; yet, my lords, in this land, in which our lots are cast to live, there is more honour, there is more humanity, there is a stronger sense of moral duty, than in any other country on the face of the globe. I am proud to say so, and that I live in such a country. And I rejoice I can say, still more, there never were times when more goodness of the people existed, than in the present. There never was more purity in the mind of man, than in this country, and in these times. I do not mean in a certain month or year; but there is a progression of good qualities, up to the, times in which we live, and which have emanated from religious institutions, founded upon the enlightened system of Christianity; the beneficence and mildness of which I have always admired; and, consistently with the principles of which, I have framed this bill.
Earl Darnleysaid a few words, expressing his most cordial support of the bill, and that he had on a former day only wished due caution might be used in framing it, so that it should not be injurious in its operation.
The Bill, as amended, passed through the committee, and was ordered to be printed with the amendments.

LICENCES UNDER THE TOLERATION ACT.
Lord Viscount Sidmouthrose to move for an Account of the Number of Licences issued within a certain period, under the act of 1 W. & M. c. 18. commonly called the Toleration Act, and of the 19 G. 3. c. 44, entitled, "An Act for the further relief of Protestant Dissenting' Ministers and Schoolmasters." It appeared, he said, to be highly desirable and important, that the information which it was the object of his motion to procure, should be possessed by parliament and the public. He had no reason to doubt, that a large majority of those, who had obtained licences under these Acts, had applied for them from motives the most strictly conscientious: as little could he doubt, that the wise and liberal policy, by which these acts were dictated, had, in numerous instances, been grossly abused. That such was the fact was well known to magistrates, who were in the habit of attending quarter sessions of the peace in the several counties of England and Wales.—Under these acts, it was competent to any person calling himself a protestant dissenter, of whatever age, or condition, however ignorant, however exceptionable in conduct, and character, by taking the oaths, and making the declarations thereby required, to qualify himself as it was termed, to present any doctrines he pleased, and thus to obtain an exemption from all parochial offices, and from serving on juries, or in the militia. Thus was a strong incentive afforded to schism, and in proportion to its success, an increased buthen thrown upon the members of the established church. He desired, however, to be understood as applying his complaint on this point solely to immunities claimant by self-appointed preachers and teachers, not attached to any dissenting congregations; or by those who, being in the ministry, were also engaged in secular occupations and callings. Persons duly appointed and devoting themselves to the performance of their spiritual duties, ought in his opinion, to enjoy the same immunities as those who had received episcopal ordination,—As to the description of persons, to whom licences ought to be granted (for they were now claimable as of right,) it was a point of extreme delicacy, and importance, concerning which he should be averse to any regulations, but such as all sober minded, and rational dissenters must approve. He could not however, but presume that every individual of that description must be desirous that the doctrines, which he believed

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should not be publicly preached by persons wholly destitute of ordinary attainments; by persons not arrived at that period of life, previous to which Deacon's orders could not be conferred, or of whose moral characters and conduct satisfactory attestations had not been adduced. It was also highly desireable, (and surely it would not be deemed unreasonable, or improper to require,) that persons claiming Licences to preach should state, if not the grounds of their, dissent, the denomination, at least, of Dissenters to which they professed to belong; that they should be recommended by the religious society of which they were members; that they should be attached to a known and distinct place of public worship; and that they should not be at liberty to officiate habitually elsewhere without afresh Licence.—Whether these or any other regulations should be adopted, it would be for the wisdom of their lordships, and of the other house of parliament, to determine: but it appeared to be due to that profession of faith, concerning the fundamental doctrines of which we were all agreed, that no subordinate differences of opinion should allow us to be regardless of the qualifications and characters of those by whom religious instruction was to be conveyed. With respect to the tenets of the various sects of Dissenters, we had, indeed, no right to interfere: but to endeavour that, be they what they may, they should not be preached and taught by the grossly ignorant and the profligate, was surely no infringement on the sound principles of an enlightened toleration. That the number of persons who frequent meeting houses, and conventicles had, within the last few years, considerably increased, could not be denied: but it was not to be supposed that the number of dissenters had increased in the same proportion. He believed the fact to be, that the awful occurrences of the last twenty years had created a more general sense of the truths, and importance of religion than was previously entertained; and that whilst these impressions were spreading, and the population of the country rapidly increasing, the number of places of worship under the established church, of clergymen engaged in the performance of parochial duties, remained nearly the same. Many persons were therefore induced to prefer an attendance in conventicles, and meeting houses, to a neglect of public worship altogether. By an Address to his majesty
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with a view to the improvement of small Benefices, to which their lordship's had unanimously agreed on the preceeding day, a step had been taken, which amongst its other advantages tended to obviate one of the causes of apparent separation from the church; inasmuch as the inducement to unite many small livings for the purpose of affording a decent subsistence, would be weakened, as the actual value of each was materially improved; and thus whilst the number of pluralists was diminished, that of the resident efficient clergy would be increased. But the great and most effectual check to the progress of Schism, as proceeding from the causes to which he had adverted, must be derived from an augmentation of the number of churches properly endowed, to which all persons should have access. Proprietary chapels would in no degree answer the purpose, unless it were enacted, as he thought it ought to be, by the authority of parliament, that for a certain proportion of the Aiea of places of public worship to be consecrated in future, no pew rent should be taken. He was however of opinion that the charge of providing additional places of worship, where an increased population appeared to require them, ought in part to be defrayed by local contributions, and not be thrown exclusively on the public. To these objects, he trusted that the attention of government, and of parliament would be speedily and earnestly directed: it was a duty of primary, indispensable, and urgent importance; the performance of which could not but be intimately connected with our welfare, and even with the stability of our existence as a nation; for whatever might be our apparent prosperity, however extensive, lofty, and splendid the edifice of our power, it would be insecure, and transitory, unless founded on the basis of an established religion, firmly and zealously upheld and protected by the supreme authority of the state. Whether, if his motion should be agreed to, he should submit any measure to their lordships in the ensuing session, was matter of future consideration. It would be far more satisfactory to him to see this subject in other, and abler hands. He had however discharged what he thought a duty in endeavouring to draw their attention to it, and from the manner in which they had been pleased to receive what he had said, he was willing to hope that in that respect he had not been disappointed.—His lordship then

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moved, "That, there be laid before this house an account of the number of Licences issued in each year at the general quarter sessions of the peace, in the several counties of England and Wales, and at the Registry in each diocese, from the commencement of the year 1780 to the end of the year 1808 under the Act 1 W. and M. commonly called the Toleration Act, and the 19 G. 3. c. 44, entitled an Act for the further Relief of Protestant Dissenting Ministers, and Schoolmasters."
Lord Harrowbythought that it was not by any restrictive measure that any great and desirable object could be accomplished. He particularly recommended to their lordships' consideration the small number of churches of the established worship compared to what was required. The people were desirous of procuring religious instruction; and if they could not find it in the establishment, they were obliged to seek it elsewhere, in very many cases, while they would more readily receive it from the church of England. With this fact he was certain many of their lordships must be well acquainted. Give the church its fair and just opportunities, and he had not the slightest reason to imagine any danger to the establishment. The general superiority of education, the justly acquired influence, and the moral habits of the established clergy would, he was convinced, in that case, ensure those moral and religious advantages, that were so much desired by all who had at heart the welfare and happiness of the community at large. His lordship would propose an Amendment which would shew the progressive increase of Dissenters, or persons preaching and teaching, not being of the established church, more fully by going back towards the commencement of his majesty's reign. He therefore moved the yearly returns should commence from the year 1700 instead of 1780.
The Archbishop of Canterburysaid, that the fact of the great increase of sectaries and dissenters from the established church of England, was one which was so clear that no man could doubt it. His grace supported the motion and the amendment, and expressed his approbation of the measure proposed on the evening preceding. The fact was, that our population had, particularly in some large towns, far exceeded the machinery by which the beneficial effects of our church establishment could be universally communicated. He did not wish to interfere in the smallest degree with the
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wise and just system of toleration, and though he lamented the present deficiency of means on the part of the establishment, he was not friendly to measures of restriction; so far from that, under the present circumstances, he should be sorry to see any such measures resorted to. But ha trusted their lordships would consider the real state and number of the parochial places of worship in the country under the establishment. His grace begged, however, to state, that with respect to the Licences alluded to, the bishops had no power whatever.
Earl Grosvenorconcurred in most of what had fallen from the preceding speakers. His lordship thought the matter of the highest consequence. He held in his hand a printed letter to the late archbishop of Canterbury, calling upon his grace's interference; and stating, out of not a large number of persons receiving Licences, that seven or eight of them spelt the word "Gospel" differently; and as many others made their mark, instead of signing their names, on paying their shilling for a licence under the Toleration Act.
The Lord Chancellorexpressed his desire to see every thing done that could be done in favour of the established church, and hoped that something might be done to prevent those abuses that wire practised on the Toleration Act, by which men who never intended to preach or teach took advantage of that liberal enactment, to avoid that civil or military service which no conscientious or religious person would take such means to avoid.
The motion was then put and carried, nem dis.