Sitting of 6 February 1809

THANKS OF THE HOUSE GIVEN TO MAJOR GENERAL FERGUSON.
Major-General Ferguson being come to the house, the Speaker acquainted him, that the house had, upon the 25th of January last, resolved, That the Thanks of this house be given to him for his skilful and gallant exertions against the enemy in the Battles of Roleia and Vimiera, by which he reflected so much lustre on his majesty's arms; and the Speaker gave him the Thanks of the house accordingly, as followeth, viz.
"Major-General Ferguson; Amongst the many high privileges enjoyed under this free constitution, it is of great public advantage, that they who serve their country in the field, may also maintain its rights and assist its councils in the Senate; and this house beholds at all times with peculiar pride and satisfaction those gal-

365
lant officers, who, returning from foreign wars to resume their duties in this place, appear again amongst us with increased reputation and honour. Whenever the fleets and armies of this country go forth, the nation unremittingly contemplates the progress of their operations; and, looking with anxious hope for a victorious result, it nevertheless confidently expects that, in every event, each of its military leaders will not fail to combine, with a ready skill in the arts of modern warfare, the firm and undaunted courage of his ancestors. These hopes and these expectations you have not disappointed upon the late-expedition to Portugal: and your country will long remember with admiration, your intrepid conduct in the battle of Roleia, and your signal display of judgment and valour in the battle of Vimiera. These exploits have obtained for you the Thanks of Parliament, which you will receive not more as the tribute of its gratitude, than as a mark and note of the further services which it expects at your hands. I do, therefore, in the name and by the command of the Commons of this united kingdom, thank you for your skilful and gallant exertions against the enemy in the battles of Roleia and Vimiera, by which you reflected so much lustre on his majesty's arms."
Upon which major-gen, Ferguson said,
"Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to return my warmest acknowledgements for the high and distinguished honour which this house has been pleased to confer on me.— Having ever considered that the greatest reward which a soldier can attain is the approbation of his country, the Thanks of this house must be received by me with gratitude and pride. I am well aware, however, that I owe this honour not to my own merit, but to my singular good fortune, in commanding such officers and such men as were placed under my immediate orders, and in being myself under the guidance of a general, whose talents, decision, and bravery, justly secured to him the confidence of every man in his army.—Could any thing in my mind enhance the value of the Thanks of this house, it would be the very handsome (but too flattering) manner in which you, sir, have been pleased to communicate them."

IRISH MILITIA ACTS.
Sir A. Wellesleyin pursuance of notice, moved for leave to bring in a bill for amending and reduciug into one, the several Acts for raising and
366
training the Militia in Ireland. The first act respecting the Militia in Ireland had been passed in the year 1793, but the provisions which were then found efficient for the raising and training the then first raised Militia in that country were afterwards found inadequate when the Militia had once been embodied. Consequently, several acts had been passed in the Irish parliament, and since in the imperial parliament, to amend, the act of 1793. In these acts there were many provisions which were inconsistent and contradictory; and in bringing forward the measure he proposed, his object was to reduce them all into one, and to amend and class under proper heads the different provisions they contained. Another object ha had in view was, to amend the law, as it now stands, respecting the Oath taken by militiamen upon their enlistment. A doubt was entertained whether the men who took the present oath were bound to serve only for five years, or during the war, and this doubt his measure was to remove. Another object he proposed by his bill related to the ballot. As the law at present stood, the governors and deputy governors of counties had no power of compulsion to alter the lists; which ho proposed to amend by giving such power, whenever the lord lieutenant shall call for the alteration of the lists. Another provision he meant to introduce was, to enable the lord lieutenant to substitute the mode of parish assessments for the ballot; and also to authorise the governors to raise men for the militia by volunteering. These were the principal provisions of the bill he proposed to bring in, and which he had, since last session, submitted to the consideration of the lord lieutenant and country gentlemen of Ireland, and taken their sense upon them; it was his intention, after the first and second reading of the bill, to suffer it to lie over for a month, in order to give gentlemen time to form a judgment upon its contents. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in the bill; when leave was given accordingly.

OFFICE OF CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND.
Mr. Whitbread,in submitting the motion of which he had given notice, should have occasion to trouble the house but shortly, in order to obtain its approbation of the proposition he had to make. During the late campaign a most extraordinary circumstance had taken place, both here and in Ireland, to which he wished to call the attention of the house. The

367
chief secretary for Ireland, and the under secretary of state, both gallant and distinguished officers, had been employed in the military service of their country, and suffered still to retain the civil employments they before held, though it was impossible for them to perform any of the duties annexed to them. He admitted, that in either capacity the country could not be better served; but contended that no office should be held by any person whose absence made it impossible for him to execute its duties. When the war department required every exertion of every public officer, it could not be maintained that the under secretary of state, for that department, and the chief secretary for Ireland, could be absent from their offices without material injury to the public service. He had asked a question of the noble lord (Castlereagh) opposite, before his gallant relation had returned, and whilst the other gallant officer was attending the duties of his office in Ireland. The answer respecting the former was most satisfactory, but though it was not his intention to say a word upon that subject in this instance, he must be allowed to say that he thought the noble lord ought to have filled up the appointment during the absence of his relation. The answer respecting the other gallant officer was not equally satisfactory. He allowed that no person possessed in a more eminent degree every qualification for the distinguished command to which he had been appointed, and was equally ready to give him the greatest credit for the manner in which he executed, and the attention which he paid to, the duties of his office of chief secretary for Ireland. But, though he was convinced that no person was better qualified for either situation than that gallant officer, he could never admit, that whilst fighting the battles of his country in Portugal, he was a fit person to retain the office of chief secretary for Ireland. He was sure that gallant officer was too much alive to true glory, to wish that any injurious precedent should be established by any circumstance connected with his individual interests. He might appeal to the chair respecting the duties and emoluments of the office of chief secretary, as that office had been held by the distinguished person in the chair, whose mind had ever been more fixed on the duties than the emoluments of the office. It was to him that the public was indebted for having the duties defined and the emoluments brought forward to public inspec-
368
tion. Though the emoluments were considerable, he did not mean to say that they were greater than the situation merited; but he must insist that if no duties were performed, the public ought not to be called upon to pay. A great deal had been said about the necessity of keeping up the establishment of the office. For his part he was no friend to a paltry economy, but was of opinion that every public officer from the highest to the lowest ought to be paid in proportion to his services. All ought to be liberally remunerated; but then the duties ought to be performed. They had been told that the lord lieutenant was to have appointed a successor to the gallant officer, whenever he should think it fit or necessary. It was naturally to have been expected that the expedition to Zealand would have lasted but a short time, but yet it was his opinion that the office ought to have been even in that instance filled up. From the extensive disturbances which prevailed last summer in Ireland, and the laborious duties of the office being of a two-fold description, both civil and military, together with the weight of correspondence to be sustained, it was not too much for the public to demand, that the efficient members of the government should remain upon the spot. As to the stipulation of the gallant officer, when appointed to the office, that he should not be required to continue secretary, if he should be appointed to any active military command, he could easily give him credit for the feeling which gave preference to military glory. When he had been appointed to his late command, it never could have been expected that it would have been so short as it afterwards turned out, and when the gallant officer had accepted of the command, he should have resigned his civil office, and insisted on a successor being appointed. But as on his return the emoluments of the office would have ceased, if a successor had been appointed, why, he would ask, should they not have ceased as he had not performed the duties? The gallant officer had said that he was not richer from his salary. That he believed, as he did not suppose that any person accepted an office with a view to pecuniary emolument, but rather as an object of honourable ambition. He should not take up more of the time of the house, and if he had been allowed to make a few observations on a former night, he should not have made any motion at all. The Resolution he bad to submit, he

369
trusted, would be placed on the journals, and become the means of preventing any person hereafter, whatever his abilities might be, from occupying two incompatible places. The hon. gent, concluded by moving a resolution, "That the Office of Chief Secretary for Ireland is an efficient Office of the highest responsibility, which ought not to be held by any person absent from the realm, and that the emoluments of it ought not to be paid to any person unable to perform the duties."—On the question being put,
Sir Arthur Wellesleybegged leave to repeat what he had said on a former night upon this subject, and move especially as what he had then said had bean misrepresented. When first appointed to the office which he now had the honour to fill, it had been clearly understood by the noble lord at the head of the Irish government, by his noble and hon. friends near him, and by the illustrious person at the head of the army, that his appointment should not preclude him from accepting any military employment in the service of his country. Under these circumstances, when the expedition to Zealand took place, he was employed in it, and also in the expedition to Portugal; and on both occasions it had been clearly understood that he had relinquished all claim to the civil office, if a successor should be appointed. He had retained the office solely at the desire of the lord lieutenant, who thought that he could assist him effectually, as he had already done, by the regulations which he had suggested. The Resolution of the hon. member went to declare, that a certain efficient government should at ail times exist in Ireland. He was not disposed to dispute the truth of the abstract proposition; but he would ask the house to pause before it voted such a proposition, and to inquire whether any inconvenience had resulted from his absence, and whether in consequence there had not been an efficient government in Ireland. He would ask the hon. gent, whether any public business had been delayed even 24 hours, or whether all the affairs of the government had not gone on without interruption? Had not the regulations which he had arranged with his grace the duke of Richmond, for the various departments of the state, been carried into effect, and the public service been thereby promoted without intermission? Under these circumstances, he would ask the house to pause before it should vote
370
this abstract proposition, particularly as no inconvenience had resulted from his absence. As to the salary of chief secretary, he allowed it to be large, more even than the salary of a secretary of state. But then the Irish secretary had not the same rank for situation, character, and consideration as a secretary of state, and consequently the salary was given to him not so much for performing the duties, as to enable him to maintain the situation and the character that belonged to it. When he had proceeded to Portugal, the lord lieut. was desirous that he should retain the office of secretary, at the same time declaring, that if he did not return within a certain time, a successor should be appointed. It was at that time uncertain whether he should ever return; but when he did return, as no successor had been appointed, he certainly considered himself entitled to the emoluments of the office. The hon. gent, had said, that if on returning he found another had been appointed, he would not have received the emoluments, and inferred from that, that as he had not performed the duties, he should not receive the salary. Unquestionably, if another had been appointed, he should not have received the salary; but then he would not have had the establishment to maintain, and as whether absent or present, the expence of that establishment was defrayed by him, he had taken the salary. He had trespassed too much upon the attention of the house; but if he had ever supposed that the circumstance would have attracted attention, or that he had not a right to the salary, he should never have received it. The example of his gallant friend he most certainly approved, but he had not thought it right to return the emoluments he had received, because he would not have it supposed that he would shrink from the discussion of any act of his in that house. He could assure the house, however, that he should in no future instance consent to hold his office in the event of his being appointed to a military command.—Sir A. Wellesley then bowed to the chair, and withdrew.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose, rather for the purpose of moving the previous question, than to confirm the statement of his gallant friend, which could not need any thing to aid its credit with the house. It was, undoubtedly, well understood, both here and in Ireland, that if any inconvenience had been felt, another would have been appointed. But so ur-

371
gent had been the desire of the duke of Richmond and of his majesty's ministers here, that the gallant general should retain the office, that a successor had not been appointed, because no inconvenience had been felt. If blame was imputable any where, it was not to the right hon. officer, but to his majesty's government. He saw no necessity for the Resolution, and therefore moved the previous question.
Lord H. Petty and lord Castlereagh made a few observations; as did Mr. Whitbread in reply.—The previous question was then carried without a division.

POOLE WRIT—MR JEFFERY.
Lord Folkestonemoved the order of the day, for resuming the adjourned debate, on the motion, That the Speaker do issue his warrant for a new Writ for Poole, in the room of Mr. Jeffery, who had accepted the office of consul general in Portugal—On the debate being resumed, the question was put that a new writ be issued.
Mr. Bankesobserved, that having given this subject the fullest consideration, he was prepared to state some arguments upon it, if the question had given rise to discussion. The house would not be surprised if the consideration of this question led him to call its attention to the Report of the Committee of Finance, which he had the honour to present to the house at the close of last session: and something had happened within the present session which "more particularly Galled upon him to advert to that report. There was m that report a suggestion respecting those, who, having been ministers at foreign courts, were enjoying pensions for their services. Whether any further reports would be made from that committee, it was not for him to say. The suggestion in the Report recommended, that foreign ministers should, in future, be supplied by a selection from those who were now enjoying pensions for past services. Yet, since the Report was presented, three new appointments had taken place, and the last Gazette added two more to the number, without any one of them having been selected from those who had acquired experience in their line. Upon any principle of public economy, it would be obvious that, generally speaking, such persons alone ought to be appointed, because their pensions would then cease, and so far a beneficial saving accrue to the public. The suggestion was certainly not presumptuous, because, though it recom-
372
mended the selection generally, it did not exclude deviations from the rule whenever circumstances might render them desirable. It would be found upon a reference to the Report, that the number of persons of the description he alluded to, who were enjoying pensions as stated by him, amounted to between 40 and 50, having a revenue of between 50 and 60,000 l. annually out of the public purse. It was not his intention or wish to object to the pensions enjoyed by any of those persons, but certainly he was convinced that in granting such pensions, regard ought always to be had to the duration of service. Of the five appointed, two were members of that house; and certainly he did not mean to speak of either with disrespect, still less of lord Amherst who was another of them. But when there were so many as 40 or 50 pensioners who had the advantage of experience, it was surprising that no one of the new appointments had been filled up from that list, as their pensions would cease whilst they continued in office. In Mr. Burke's Bill there was an express provision that, in granting such pensions, regard should be had to the duration of service. But, he was sorry to add, that in later times this bill had been broken in upon. He did not mean invidiously to mention names, though there certainly did appear a few names on the list of pensions whose length of services did not appear to entitle them to the amount of pension granted to them. When we scarcely knew where to send ministers, it seemed to be rather a singular moment for sending out persons without experience, when we had so many retired foreign ministers from whom to select them.
Mr. Secretary Canningcommented on the hon. gent.'s introduction of subjects into this discussion not at all connected with, it. On looking into the matter, he was convinced that Mr. Jeffery by the acceptance of this appointment had vacated his seat so completely, that he was not even eligible to become a candidate for re-election. His hon. friend had, however, completely mistaken the common practice, when he supposed that the appointment to the situation of consul, or secretary of legation, necessarily gave a man a claim to remuneration from the public when his office ceased. The fact was, that pensions were never granted to men for having filled the situation of consul, except under very special circumstances. The appoint-

373
ment of Mr. Jeffery would not cost the country a single farthing, and although a salary was specified of 1,500 l. per annum, it was because the fees of the office amounted to a much greater sum; and the arrangement was not made with the view of giving Mr. Jeffery any salary out of the public purse, but for the purpose of applying some part of the established profits of the consulate of Lisbon to the advantage of the country in another way. It was, indeed, desirable, in some respects, to give fixed salaries to the consuls in the manner that was done to the American consuls, in order that the government should have the right of restraining them from embarking in trade. It was thought that the excess of the fees of the consulate at Lisbon above the amount of the 1,500 l. per annum would be sufficient to pay fixed salaries to our consuls at Oporto, St. Ubes, Faro, and any other port in Portugal where it was necessary to have consuls; and by giving them fixed salaries, they might be restrained from engaging in commerce. There certainly was not the slightest idea in the appointment of Mr. Jeffery, of giving that gentleman any claim upon the country for a pension. The hon. gent, was mistaken in supposing that many of the old lists of consuls and secretaries of legation had been pensioned. He believed there was hardly a single instance of it. As for the part that he was responsible for, he could venture to say, that as to those engaged in the lower parts of diplomacy, he had hardly removed one; and there were striking instances, where he had allowed those to remain in the high situation of ambassadors, where political connections were rather with the gentlemen on the other side of the house. The only ambassador he appointed in the place of the former, was lord G. L. Gower, in the place of the marquis of Douglas. The situation of this country and of Russia was at that time such that it was necessary to have an ambassador with whom he could have the most confidential intercourse. Neither of these noble lords had since returned to burden the pension list. Ire removed no other man without some special reason, except Mr. Drummond; and if he had appointed lord Amherst to a diplomatic situation, it was certainly not with the least idea of his ever claiming a pension for his services, and he would venture to say, that however he might, have sinned in the appointments he made, his sin was not against public economy. He
374
then defended the appointments of Mr. Villiers to Portugal, and of Mr. Douglas to Sicily. The latter had been private secretary to lord Pembroke, and was a young man of considerable attention to business. He would never allow the principle that until all the old diplomatists were exhausted and used up, that no young men of talents and attention to business should be taken as recruits.
Mr. Bankescited the instance of a secretary of legation at Dresden who had been pensioned, and of a Mr. Drake, who had been consul at Venice, having been also pensioned. He instanced the same thing in the cases of the consuls at Algiers, Tripoli, and Tunis.
Mr. Canningexplained. The pension of the first had been granted under peculiar circumstances. It was to a man very far advanced in years, who had been 40 years in the public service. Mr. Drake, the consul at Venice, lost the whole of his fortune on the subversion of the Venetian government. He recommended that he should have a pension, not on the ground of right, but as a case of compassion. In this application he did not succeed.
Mr. Roseallowed that the seat of Mr. Jeffery was vacated by his acceptance of the appointment.
Mr. Johnstonethought, that if ever the old system of things returned in Europe, and all our consuls were paid fine salaries, they should not be allowed to sit in that house, or otherwise ministers could bring their consuls from Flanders to vote as readily as their friends from Ireland.

DISTILLERY BILL.
The order of the day being moved for the second reading of this bill,
Sir James Hallrose to oppose it on the ground he had formerly done; viz. that it was a bill which in its principle and tendency was adverse to the agricultural interests of the country, and ought not therefore to be continued, without very sufficient reasons being given for such a measure. He was more particular in this opinion at the present moment, as he understood that by the present bill Ireland was to be exempted from its operation; a measure which he thought was by no means just or fair; for as it was intended as a matter of accommodation and benefit to the West India interests, he thought that both countries ought to bear an equal proportion of the burden on their agricultural concerns.
Mr. Hibbertthought the measure had

375
not had sufficient time given it to produce those bad effects; and, it seemed, in general, not to be opposed by a large class of the community, although they took alarm at it last year. He, however, could not approve of exempting one part of the united kingdom from its operation, and allowing it to continue in the other; and, therefore, he wished to know whether the right hon. gent, opposite had taken up that exemption upon grounds of full information? It appeared perfectly uncertain whether Ireland could be exempted with safely to the revenue. He was informed that the licensed distillers of Ireland would have distilled move from sugar than they had done, if the duties had been the same there as in England and Scotland.
Mr. Fosteranswered, that the consequence found, to arise from the measure applying to Ireland, was, that more grain had been used in that country, in clandestine distilleries, since June last, than had formerly been used in one year. Not one hogshead of sugar had been used; and as the object of the Bill was avowedly for the purpose of consuming that article, therefore it had entirely failed, and Ireland ought to be exempted from its operation. It had been found, too, that it, had materially injured the revenue upon malt in Ireland'. The result, indeed, had been, that the people of Ireland, whose feeling was a contempt of the law, and a disposition not to obey it, had taught the present government that that Bill could not be enforced. When the agriculture of the country was put into one scale, and the consumption of sugar into the other, the probability was, that the farmers of the country would have no disposition to sup-press the clandestine distilleries. It was found, also, that they even exported corn to foreign countries. It was therefore found; improper to put the two countries, Great J Britain and Ireland, upon the same footing. The Irish had never been more happy than last year, in having a very fine and large crop of their favourite at tide of food—potatoes; and therefore less corn had been actually consumed in any other mode than that of distillation.
Mr. Edenrecapitulated the arguments he had used against the measure last year. Great Britain had been for a considerable time dependent upon her foreign connexions for a supply of food, and therefore when that was cut off, it was impossible but there should be a great rise in the price of provisions. The import was not
376
only entirely stopped, but there had been of late great demands' from our colonies, and our military expeditions had operated as drains upon our usual sources of supply. The house was now called upon to seek a remedy against a scarcity, the necessity of which was severely felt and acknowledged; and while he admitted the expediency of the measure, he could not but regret that ministers had actually themselves shut the door against the supply of the granaries, by their conduct towards America; for, in his opinion, the American Embargo was the work of the present ministers. In 1807, the value of the corn, grain, and flour, imported from the United States, amounted to 900,000 l. It was in their power, in the month of August last, to have removed that obstacle, but, instead of doing so, they had been busily employed in building castles in Spain, in order, as they vainly imagined, to defeat the intentions of Buonaparté in that country. They did not seem at all to advert that the quartern leaf was now fifteen-pence! He wished for a return of moderation in our councils, in order that the channels of importation might be opened to prevent scarcity, and of exportation, or general trade, to relieve more effectually the West india planters.
Mr. Marriotthought the measure had not been fairly tried in Ireland. It ought to be inquired into what were the causes of its failure in Ireland. He understood that the Irish distillers complained of the mode of collecting the duties which were imposed; not upon the extent of their stills, but upon the number of gallons of their wash; from which the same number of gallons of spirits could not be produced, as in England. To exempt Ireland from the operation of the Bill, would be encouraging an improper degree of exportation of corn from this country. In every point of view he thought Ireland ought to be included.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerargued in favour of the exemption of Ireland, as the bill bad been found not to operate there to advantage, either in regard to the revenue, or to the relief of the West India planters.
Mr. Barhamwas of opinion that Ireland should not he excluded from the effects of the bill. He called the attention of the house to the great amount of revenue which the empire would lose by not extending the measure to that country. He cautioned the Chancellor of the Exche-

377
quer for Ireland from holding out that the acts of that house could not be enforced in that country. Without wishing to say any thing that could be offensive to that gentleman, he must recollect that he prophesied last session, that the measure would fail or should fail: if should was not the word made use of by the right hon. gent., it sounded as near it as any word he had ever heard; and he that night had avowed he prophesied right. It appeared to him that the right hon gent. was determined it should be so; for last session ho put a spoke in the wheel, which prevented the machine from working, by introducing a clause, making the duty on spirits distilled from sugar in Ireland, nearly double what had been paid on spirits distilled from grain. He did not see why Ireland should be screened more than any other part of the empire, and particularly it should not on account of the reason assigned, that the pertinacity of the people would not allow it to be carried into effect. He recommended it to the right hon. gent, to make a proper inquiry before he again asserted that the people of Ireland had rebelled, or set their face against any measure enacted by that house.
Mr. Foster,in explanation, observed, that every person who knew him must be convinced (hat he was not capable of being guilty of the charge alledged by the hen. gent.; but this much he must say, that any person that made such a charge against him; would be capable of committing it himself.
Mr. Barham,in explanation, said, it had not been his wish to wound the feelings of the right lion. gent, by the allusions he made, and he prefaced them by an explanation of that nature; but the language the right hon. gent, thought fit to make use of in his explanation, he assured him, if he had made use of in any other place than in that house, he would return it the answer it deserved. He always considered every thing that passed in that house not cognizable cut of it; he would, therefore, take no further notice of it.
Mr. D. Giddysaid, he never could acquiesce in or encourage the distillation from sugar, when it tended to destroy the agriculture of the country.
The bill was then read a second time.