Sitting of 28 April 1809

APPLICATION OF APPROPRIATED OR UNAPPROPRIATED MONEY.
Lord Henry Pettyrose, pursuant to his notice of yesterday, to call the attention of the house to a subject which, in point of its principle, deeply involved their most valuable privileges. It appeared, by an account laid upon the table by order, of the house, that in the month of May, in the, course of the last sessions, a system had begun to be acted upon, which called for the most serious interpositon of that house: at that period money had been issued to foreign ministers without the consent of the commons house of parliament. It appeared that the sum of 5,000 l. had been given to Mr. Chinnery, to be by him handed over to the Chevalier Souza, for the purpose of affording assistance to the Portuguese emigrants, and of defraying the expences of the passage of Portuguese families to South America. Upon the 3d of June following, another 5,000 l. was devoted in a similar manner to the same object. On the 21st of July there was an additional grant, and afterwards, during the recess, several sums of money, amounting in the whole to 85,000 l. As to the expediency of the issue then made, he was yet to learn, not having received any information respecting it; but this, however, he well knew, that there was not in the course of the late sessions any service voted to which such an application could have any reference; it was therefore his intention to call upon the house to come to a Declaratory Resolution, in the spirit of that principle adopted by their ancestors, and in conformity to that practical lesson taught them in the course of a contest for a century, with the encroachments of the crown, while parliament was sitting. For two months the public money was issued in different sums, without any application having been made to that parliament, though they were then sitting. He knew of no exception to the great rule, that was not made out by the most urgent necessity; a deviation had been made in cases of imperious necessity, but even in these there was no analogy to justify the proceeding of which he now complained. In the case of the 13th of May in the year 1711, the money applied had been voted by parliament, but the error here was, that it had been applied to a different service from that to which parliament had voted it, though the service to

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which it was applied had been also voted by parliament. Such a case, which was only a transfer, could not be adduced as a precedent for the present one, where the service had never been voted by that house; had never been considered; had never been contemplated by it; nor were they to be told, that in consequence of the pressing exigencies of the times; of the critical state of public affairs; of the great necessity for dispatch, that it was extremely difficult to act up to the good old constitutional principles, of which that house was bound to be the jealous guardian. In proportion as they relaxed from those principles, in yielding to any sudden and uncontroulable necessity, in the same proportion should they watch and diligently pursue all such exceptions as might have inevitably occurred, that they might not be made precedents to justify cases not at all analogous. Till the year 1727 Votes of Credit never had been heard of, and such was the laudable jealousy of that house, that in the year 1737 (he believed) a limitation was imposed upon that vote of credit, which remains imposed upon it to this day. There was an exception, but it was one which gentlemen would not, he believed, be very forward to cite; it was that which had occurred in the course of the American war, and the committee upon it had pronounced the introduction of such a Vote of Service into the Army Extraordinaries to be a dangerous invasion of the rights and privileges of the house of commons. He was aware of the grant of money which had excited so much observation in that house, made by Mr. Pitt to the emperor of Austria in the year 1796; but in the amendment then moved upon the original motion, it was submitted, that the advance being made without the consent of parliament, was against the law of the land; this was admitted by those even who were the supporters of that minister upon that occasion. From this view, then, of the transaction, he could anticipate nothing that could possibly be urged in its defence, unless some plea of paramount necessity was made out in palliation of the offence. If, however, that plea was not made out, he hoped they would not be told of the comparative smallness of the sum by way of extenuation.—The sum was nothing, but the principle on which it was granted was, and ought to be, every thing in the eyes of those who were the constitutional guardians of the public purse. The
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noble lord then concluded with moving "That the applying any sum or sums of appropriated or unappropriated money to uses not voted or addressed for by parliament, during the sitting of parliament, and without any communication to parliament respecting the nature and amount of such issues, is a misapplication of the public money, and is contrary to, and dangerously invades, the acknowledged rights and privileges of this house."
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated his surprise at hearing the noble lord say, that the grant of which he complained was unprecedented. If he had reverted to some of the grants voted during the time he was in office, he would find that there were some of an analogous nature. He by no means wished to contend the present question upon a recriminating principle, because he was aware that such an issue of public money could not be withheld without a great public inconvenience. What was the amount, either in expence or quality, of the present motion? It was no more than this, that on the 23d of May and the 3d of June, 1808, two sums of 5,000 l. each were applied to the purpose of assisting those Portuguese who loyally and nobly preferred an emigration to the Brazils, rather than submit to the dominion of the enemy, by which their native country was subjugated. The objection was, to have the amount of that application brought before that, house in the Estimate of the Army Extraordinaries. He could not see the validity of that objection. It was to be recollected, that the persons served were our allies, cleaving to our protection, looking to England for an asylum, and he was sure with the same expectation of protection as if they had found refuge in a British camp. It was under the reciprocal feeling both of the government which ordered the issue and of the unfortunate and loyal persons who were assisted, that the sums now attacked by the motion of the noble lord were conditionally issued to the chevalier de Souza. He would put it to the house to say, whether if any other means of pecuniary assistance were applied to that portion of our emigrating allies, suppose to the British commissary, there would be any opposition to such an application. But the noble lord complained, that it was a sum appropriated to one service and diverted to another. The answer to such complaint was, that it was an application truly referable to the Army Extraordinaries, inasmuch as was a pecu-

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niary claim upon the country growing out of the circumstances and accidents of the war, and therefore ought to be met out of the fund voted for such extraordinaries. What, then, did the noble lord introduce by his present motion; Nothing less than a sweeping clause affecting not alone the present and past administration, but the very branch of administration which the noble lord had lately filled, and the very conduct which he himself had practised. He did not condemn that conduct, but at the same time could not suppress his surprise at the sudden disposition of the noble lord not only to find fault with his own acts, but finally to withhold the power of government to meet what the noble lord must know were most pressing exigences. He could not suppose that the house would concur in such a motion, and therefore moved the order of the day.
Mr. Tierneydenied that there was any comparison between the sum of 85,000 l. now voted in opposition to the appropriation of parliament, and the money supplied out of the Army Extraordinaries during the administration of his noble friend. The latter was a perfectly military application, with a view to future operations in Hanover, and under that impression, and for that object, the money was issued to count Munster. Besides, military co-operation was intended in Hanover under lord Cathcart. Would any man assimilate such an application of the Army Extraordinaries to the present one, of applying certain monthly sums to certain Portuguese emigrants, merchants, traders, &c. to the Brazils, men who had nothing to do with the army? The house had also to bear in recollection that it had voted in the same session a sum of 120,000 l. for the relief of distressed Emigrants, and therefore to apply another fund for the relief of such persons, was nothing less than a gross deception upon parliament. But, at what time did the government make this undue application? Why, at the time that the same government announced to Europe, that it had dispensed a blessing upon Portugal, that it had released that people from the intolerable burthen of their invaders. So that poor England was to have the expence of conferring the blessing of expelling the enemy, and afterwards of paying for the passage and subsistence of the very Portuguese who ran away from this identical blessing. It was not true that these sums to the chevalier de Souza were paid before the Army Extraordi-
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naries of the last session were voted. Two sums of 5,000 l. each were voted on the 23d of May, and the Extraordinaries were not voted until the 25th following. It was therefore that he felt it his duty to pronounce such an application of the public money both unjustifiable and unconstitutional. In the army Extraordinaries of the last year the king's ministers had taken a vote of credit for 2,800,000 l. and the claim now amounted to 4,100,000 l. With such an excess beyond their proposed estimate, he could not but vote for the motion of his noble friend.
Mr. Huskissoncontended that the periodical grants of 5,250 l. to Count Munster by the late administration, were in a great part for the distressed Hanoverians, and were, without any censure from the noble lord for that policy, analogous to the very issues of public money, of which he now so much complained. He begged leave also to state that a number of the Portuguese emigrants were invited to this country in order to be sent to the Brazils, by the proclamation of the commanding officer of the British fleet at that period off the Tagus
Lord H. Pettyexplained, that such part of the grant to Hanover that was made independent of the intended military operations under lord Cathcart, were for the enlistment of Hanoverian troops for our service. That he presumed was strictly a military application, and therefore ought to be estimated in the annual Army Extraordinaries.
After a few words from Mr. William Smith in support of the motion, it was put and negatived without a division.

WAR OFFICE ACCOUNTS.
Mr. Wardle, pursuant to notice, moved, That there be laid before the house a Return of all the annual Regimental Accounts now in the War Office, specifying which were separate and which not, and also which had been carried into warrant from the 25th Dec. 1797 to the 25th Dec. 1808, and specifying whether for cavalry, infantry, or militia.—The hon. gent. also proposed to move for an Account of the Deficiencies of the several paymasters within the same period. The reason why he brought forward this motion was, that he might call the attention of the house to the Sixth Report of Military Inquiry, as the papers on the table were not sufficient to place the subject fully in the possession of the house, and that, though the clerks in the War Office had been increased since 1797,

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from ten to fifty, yet the accounts were as much in arrear as before this increase took place, and the business of the Office seemed rather to be impeded than promoted by this increase.
On the Question being put on the first motion,
The Secretary at Warsaid, he had no objection to the production of these papers; but as the subject was under the consideration of the Commissioners of Military Inquiry, and the War Office was occupied in forming arrangements pursuant to the suggestions of that Report, and also of the 7th and 8th Reports, he put it to the hon. gent. whether he should not defer his motion for the present, until he should know what arrangements would be adopted, especially as the preparation of these papers might interfere with the time of the clerks, now usefully occupied in the projected arrangements.
Mr. Wardlehad no desire to press his motion, if his majesty's ministers were resolved to oppose it. Why had they not made the arrangements alluded to, in all the period since June last, when the Report was laid before the house? He believed it likely, that no arrangement was in contemplation, till after he had given notice of this motion. But he could assure the house, that unless an entire change of system should take place, much loss would accrue to the public. What cost 50,000 l. now, could be done for less than 30,000 l. and this he would pledge himself to prove. He could not see why the accounts should not be settled here as well as they were in Ireland. He had been on both establishments, and had suffered, together with his regiment, by the failure of a paymaster, and the arrears of accounts in this country.
The Secretary at Warconceiving himself personally glanced at by the observations of the hon. gent., begged to assure him, that on his coming into office he had seen the necessity of making some arrangement, and had been prevented from undertaking it only by the consideration, that the subject was in the hands of the parliamentary Commissioners of Military Inquiry.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersubmitted to the hon. gent., whether, when he was informed that the subject was in a train of arrangement, it would not be better for him to defer his motion till he should see what would be done with respect to it. Then it would be in his power to bring
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forward any motion he should think necessary upon the subject.
After a few words from Mr. Homer and Mr. Whitbread, deprecating the postponement of the motion, unless upon an understanding that in the present session of parliament, the arrangement would be communicated to the house, or with a view to give ministers an opportunity of inquiring whether the papers could be produced without inconvenience,
Mr. Wardledeclared that he had not meant any thing personal to the right hon. Secretary at War; neither did he feel any personal hostility to his majesty's ministers; for he could assure them that he did not wish to see any other set of gentlemen in their places. All he had in view in his motion was to shew, that there were faults in the conduct of the Office to which it referred, which faults he wished to have corrected. He would withdraw his motion until some day next week. The motion was thon withdrawn.