Sitting of 12 April 1809

MINUTES.
On the motion of lord Ossulston it was Ordered: 1. That there be laid before the house, a Return of all Offices regulated or abolished since the year 1782, in pursuance of the recommendation of the Commissioners of Accounts in 1787, or of the Committee of Finance in 1797, together with an account of such as have not been regulated or abolished in pursuance of such recommendation, distin-

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guishing with respect to these, whether they have not yet fallen in, or have since been filled up: 2. A Return of all such Offices in the appointment of the Lords of the Treasury, or in that of the Commissioners of Excise, as have been created since the year 1782, together with the date of the first appointment, and the authority under which it was made: 3. A Return of all such Offices upon the Establishment in the appointment of the Lords of the Treasury, or in that of the Commissioners of Excise, as were not included in the Returns to the Committee on the public Expenditure, as being in value under 200 l. per annum, specifying only the description of the Office and the number of Offices of each description.—On the motion of Mr. Huskisson it was ordered: That the two Bills of Exchange for 50 l. each, drawn by E. Farquhar, and which were produced in Evidence before the Committee appointed to examine into the conduct of his royal highness the Duke of York, be delivered to Mr. Charles Cookney, the attorney of captain Milbanke, to whom they belong.—On the motion of lord Folkestone it was ordered, that the several Papers relative to the Bankruptcy of Robert Kennett, which were likewise produced in Evidence before the said Committee, be returned to Mr. Duff.—Sir John Newport, pursuant to notice, moved, that there be laid before the house a Copy of the Order or Warrant appointing Beauchamp Hill, esq. Inspector-General of Excise in Ireland. The ground upon which he brought forward the motion was, that this gentlemen had admitted, in his examination before the Commissioners of Inquiry, that whilst he was an Inspector of Excise, he used to receive 20 guineas monthly from each distiller in his district. Such conduct rendered him unfit to hold any employment, and yet that gentleman had been since promoted to the office of Inspector-General of Excise in Ireland.— Mr. Foster and Mr. Croker did not mean to oppose the motion, but could not forbear to give testimony to the merit and activity of Mr. Hill as an Excise officer; at the same time, however, admitting that, in consequence of the smallness of the former salaries, not only he, but almost all the other officers of the Excise in Ireland, had been in the habit of receiving fees contrary to law, that practice was now at an end, and it was only in consequence of his exemplary activity that Mr. Hill had been promoted.—After a few words from
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sir John Newport, the motion was agreed to.—Sir John Newport then stated, that he had to move for one or two papers relative to the Linen Board in Ireland, in order to complete the series of papers already before the house. When these papers should be produced, it was his intention to bring the whole subject before the house, and to exhibit this Board and its constitution in their proper colours. The hon. baronet concluded with moving, "That there be laid before the house, copies of all Returns made by the Architect to the Trustees of the Linen Board, from the date of the Report thereon, together with an account of the money due to the artificers, and of other claims outstanding; also a copy of the Statement made in February or March last, relative to repairs, and an account of all outstanding demands upon the funds of the Linen Board." Mr. Foster did not mean to oppose the motion, but rose to vindicate the character of the Trustees of the Linen Board, which was composed of seventy-two of the most respectable of the nobility and gentry in the kingdom, if the terms used by the hon. baronet, that he would exhibit them in their proper colours, were meant to convey an insinuation of disrespect to that Board. Mr. Ponsonby observed, that he had the honour to be one of the Trustees of that Board, and had not taken any offence at the expressions used by his right hon. friend. The object of his right hon. friend, who had communicated some of his views to him, was to expose the defects of the board as it was at present constituted, and when the matter should be before the house, it would appear that the views of his right hon. friend were directed to the welfare of the country. The motions were then agreed to.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.
A division having taken place on a private Bill, the gallery was cleared, during which time as we understand.
Sir C. Hamiltoncomplained of a Breach of Privilege in the arrest of a member coming to the house. All we could collect on the subject was—from what fell from the Speaker as we entered the gallery, who then observed, that the hon. member was right in bringing it forward, that the Sheriffs were responsible for the acts of their officers, and that when the matter was regularly brought before the house, the offender would, no doubt, be made a proper example of.

PAPERS RELATING TO MR. OGLE.
Lord Folkestonerose, in pusuance of the notice he gave yesterday, to move for copies of certain Proceedings instituted in the court of King's Bench by the Attorney-General against John Ogle, esq. in 1800 or 1801. He stated, that from the information he had received, he had understood that col. Ogle, in the year 1800 or 1801, had received a letter for raising a levy of men in Ireland; that he proceeded to carry the same into effect, in the course of which it appeared, that in many accounts presented at the War Office, col. Ogle had been found guilty of mal-practices, which rendered him liable to the charge of forgery and perjury. That in one of those years the Attorney-General had filed an information in the court of King's Bench against col. Ogle, to which he had entered a plea of not guilty, which plea was however withdrawn afterwards, and judgment by default went against him, so that he stood convicted of those crimes since 1801, and had never been brought up for judgment, nor had any further proceedings been heard on the subject. He therefore moved, for a Copy of the Information filed by the Attorney-General in the court of King's Bench against John Ogle, esq. in 1800 or 1801, and all legal proceedings had thereon.
Mr. Yorkesaid that the affair of col. Ogle's levy took place while he was at the head of the War Office, and as far as he had a recollection of the circumstance at present, the accounts were forwarded to gen. Gwynn, who was the inspecting general. Why the law proceeding was stopt he did not know; but in the War Office he recollected that col. Ogle had been called on to enter into a bond of 10,000 l. to pay such sums as should appear against him in the final passing of his accounts. He had no objection to the papers being produced.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not object to the motion, although he thought it unnecessary, as it would be found that Mr. Ogle had entered into some engagements to indemnify the public for the losses that had been sustained. It was not unusual in such cases to call for the payment of lines, and through motives of leniency to suspend the proceedings against individuals in that situation.
The motion was then agreed to, as was also a motion, "That there be laid before this house Copies of all Memorials presented or applications made, by John Ogle, esq. to the War Office, praying for
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a settlement of his Accounts since the beginning of the year 1801; together with Copies of such Answers as have been returned thereto, and all proceedings of the War Office, with reference to col. Ogle's Accounts."

DUBLIN PAVING.
Mr. Robert Shawrose, pursuant to notice, to move for the production of certain Papers relative to the Conduct of the Paving and Lighting Board of the City of Dublin. He thought that those papers contained information that would materially affect the judgement of the house in deciding en the merits of the Bill now pending; and as the citizens were not only averse to enlarging the powers of that board to so extravagant a degree, but very anxious to repeal several of the powers already granted to that board by the 47th of the king, as appeared from their proceedings at several of their corporate and parochial meetings, he begged permission to state shortly the facts that had induced him to call for these papers. And in doing so, he particularly wished that the house would bear in mind, that the citizens of Dublin are now paying, under the 47th of the king, heavy and enormous taxes for the support of this new establishment, and that common justice requires, that, if they are to pay a great deal more than formerly, the services they were to receive in return ought to be in the same proportion. It appeared, however, that the Commissioners of this board were more active in levying the taxes than in rendering such services; for by the act of last session, they were empowered to raise the tax on each house to any sum not exceeding 4s. 6d. in the pound, on the valuation of minister's money, and this power they carried into effect upon the very first meeting after the act, by assessing to the full amount allowed by the act; and yet, though this increase was more than double the former tax, the first step of the Commissioners was to take down nearly half the number of lamps in a city not too well lighted before. One of the papers he should move for would contain a return of the number of those lamps, and when gentlemen read that paper, they would, no doubt, think with him that it was rather a novel mode of improving the lighting of the city, to put out half the number of its lamps. Nor could he think it the most reasonable proceeding towards the citizens, first to make them pay double, and then to abridge their accom-

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modation one-half. And indeed of the remaining half, the lamps were so badly fed with oil, that they were in general completely extinguished by one or two in the morning, so that the city was in total darkness from that hour till the return of day-light. It was wholly unnecessary for him to comment upon the many inconveniences and dangers which must result from a neglect of this sort. The next paper he intended to move for was a return of the expences incurred in opening a sewer in Capel-street, one of the most populous streets in the city. It seemed the Commissioners were very anxious to carry into effect a favourite project of their own; this project was, to make a sewer with ledges to support main pipes, and large enough for men to work in. And here he begged that the house would observe that this project had been submitted to the ablest and most eminent engineers in either country, who had one and all, after the maturest consideration, condemned it as intolerably expensive, most absurd, and absolutely impracticable. One would have expected that after such an opinion from the best judges, the Commissioners would have paused before they would have wantonly squandered away the public money in useless experiments; but so far from it, they immediately proceeded to open an immense gulph in one of the most frequented streets, widening the gulph until the very foundations of the houses were in danger, and the houses themselves were shut out from all access by the quantity of earth thrown up on each side, and all business actually suspended for three months in one of the most trading streets in the City of Dublin. So severely was this nuisance felt, that the corporation petioned the lord lieutenant, and his grace, with all his characteristic politeness and attention, interfered and put a stop to the work till the propriety of continuing it should be farther considered. The opening of this sewer to the extent of about 30 yards cost little short of 1,000 l. The length of the pipes in Dublin exceed 50 miles, so that this circumstance in itself confirms the report of the engineers, when they stated the expence to be intolerable, and that they were equally justified in reporting the project as absurd, was evident from this consideration, that the water passing through pipes so placed must be unavoidably contaminated by the filth of the sewer, and of course be rendered unfit
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for the use of the inhabitants. And it was to avoid an evil of this sort that the London engineers, in laying pipes, always lay them as far from a sewer as possible; and when obliged to cross a sewer, the pipes were always made of metal. The remaining papers he had to move for would, he was sorry to say, prove to the house how little inclined the Commissioners have shewn themselves to consult the wishes of the citizens, from whom they were levying such enormous taxes. The circumstances which led to the correspondence, of which those papers would be a copy, were simply these: The commissioners of the Ballast Board, a most respectable body, had just completed a wall on the quay of Dublin, much to the ornament and security of that part of the city, and not without considerable expence to the inhabitants; scarcely had it been finished, when the commissioners of paving erected a paling under the windows of the Ballast Office, in the handsomest part of the city, and against the new wall, enclosing a sort of depôt for sand for paving, though, at the other side of the street, there was a vacant piece of ground equally near the work carrying on, and the occupation of which could have been productive of no inconvenience whatever. The ballast office commissioners wrote to them, requiring the removal of the depôt upon two grounds, that it was a great nuisance to the street itself, and that it seriously endangered the new wall by the weight that it imposed upon it. The commissioners of wide streets, conceiving it to be their duty to prevent such a nuisance in so public a situation, made two applications to the same effect. The very extraordinary answers (to give them no worse name) which communicated to these two most respectable authorities the unqualified refusal of the paving board, will be found in the papers he now intended moving for. The grand jury also wrote, and indignant at a similar refusal, presented it as a nuisance. The paving board entered a traverse against the presentment; and thus the public money designed for the improvement of the city of Dublin, and placed in the hands of those commissioners for that purpose, may be thrown away in defending their wanton and outrageous insults upon the citizens who supplied that money. The papers he now moved for, he was convinced would satisfy the house, that so far from extending the powers of this board, they should rescind many of

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those they already possess. The hon. member then concluded with moving, "That there be laid before the house a return of the number of lamps taken down within the city of Dublin since the month of August, 1807; also a return of the expences already incurred in making a sewer in Capel-street in the said city; and, thirdly, a copy of the correspondence between the commissioners of wide streets, the ballast office of Dublin, on the one part, and the commissioners of paving and lighting on the other, so far as said correspondence related to a certain nuisance on Aston quay, Dublin."—The motions were then severally agreed to without opposition.