Sitting of 17 March 1808

COLD BATH FIELDS PRISON.
Mr. Sumnerwished to know, whether it was the intention of the right hon. gent. to found any proceeding upon the petition which he had presented to the house; because if such was his intention, he would not take the business out of his hands.
Mr. Sheridansaid, that he had stated, when the petition was presented, that it was his wish that some enquiry should be instituted into the grievances complained of in the petition, by his majesty's government, and that if some remedy was not speedily applied to these grievances by them, he should submit some proposition on the subject to the house. For this purpose he wished to give a reasonable time to ministers to suggest some remedial measure. But, after what had happened on a former occasion, he had no great hopes from that quarter, and if nothing was proposed by them in the interval, he should bring forward some specific proposition upon the subject in the course of next week.
Mr. Sumnerhad the fullest confidence in the government, and was sure the members for Middlesex would not lose sight of a matter that called so particularly for their attention. But the character of the magistrates of that county was involved, and his anxiety to do justice to these respectable men, could not give way to his deference for. any person or persons whatsoever. He questioned whether any steps that would be privately taken by his majesty's government, would satisfy the opposition. He thought it extraordinary that the petitioners, passing by the regular and proper modes of addressing their representations to the magistrates at the quarter sessions, to the magistrates who formed the jail committee, and to the secretary of state for the home department, had come in the first instance to parliament. He could attribute such a proceeding to no other motive than a desire to obtain a bad popularity, by exciting public clamour to the injury of the characters of others. Though the result of whatever investigation should take place would, he was well satisfied, be very far from substantiating the charges made, the petition would yet remain on the journals an eternal libel on the magistrates of Middlesex. He adverted to the former inquiry
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into alledged abuses in the Cold Bath Fields Prison, by commissioners appointed under the sign manual. Though, from the character of those commissioners, there could be no doubt that they executed their trust faithfully, yet, by their being appointed by the crown, a sort of prejudice and dissatisfaction had always existed with respect to their report, among the common people, whom it was most essential to satisfy on this head. To guard against that evil consequence in the present instance, he intended to move to refer the petition, and the matters connected with it, to a parliamentary committee, to sit up stairs. Looking to the investigation which this committee would make, he would make no observation now on the matters charged in the petition; but with a view to the further information of gentlemen, he would move, "That there be laid before the house a copy of the report of the visiting magistrates of the county of Middlesex, to whom it was referred to inquire into the truth of the allegations of Mr. Sheriff Phillips and Alexander Stephens, with respect to the use of false weights and the distribution of light bread, and other abuses in the Cold Bath Fields Prison."
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not wish to throw any obstacles in the way of a thorough investigation of the grounds of complaint stated in the petition, though he did not feel disposed to acquiesce in the proposition of the hon. gent. who had just sat down. The right hon. gent. who presented the petition, had intimated his intention to wait till he saw what steps were adopted by the executive government; and he had now to state that a commission was preparing, in which all the persons, now alive, who had been on the former commission, would be re-appointed, and such names added, as he was sure, from their respectability, would give satisfaction both to the house and the public.
Sir F. Burdettconfessed, that he stood in the predicament of differing in sentiment with all those who had spoken upon the subject. In the first place, he protested against the doctrine of leaving the grievances of the people to be redressed by what one hon. gent. had pompously denominated his majesty's government,' or in other words, by the administration of the day. The hon. gent. who had brought forward the present motion, seemed to entertain the most perverse notions of the nature of the petition, which it was

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possible to enter into the head of man. A petition presented to that house praying for a redress of grievances on the part of the people, he had construed into a charge against the magistrates of the county, and the only reason he adduced for inquiring into the matter of the petition, was the vindication of the characters of the magistrates. He contended, on the contrary, that the petition had nothing to do with the characters of the magistrates of the county, and if any of the magistrates were implicated, it was the committee at the head of which was Mr. Mainwaring, and whose duty it was to superintend the due execution of the regulations for the management of the prison. He was convinced, that if the house of commons did not appoint a committee of their own for the purpose of investigating the complaints of the petition, neither the petitioners nor the country would be satisfied. The hon. gent. had thought fit to attribute improper motives to the petitioners, because they had not addressed themselves to the secretary of state before applying to that house, but he thought that the business had been quite long enough in the hands of government. It was first brought forward in 1799, since which nothing had been done to redress the grievances complained of, and he did not wonder that those who were subjected to them despaired of obtaining any relief from that quarter. Neither was he astonished at the objections which had been started to the appointment of a committee of the house of commons by the chancellor of the exchequer, aware as. he must be, of what would be the result of a public investigation. Restricted as were the powers of the former commission, because it had no authority to make retrospective inquiry, and notwithstanding the long warning and time which had been given to the gaoler to prepare for their inquiry, it appeared from the report then made, that he had set at nought the regulations of the magistrates, and the authority of the laws. And by the late report of the members of the grand jury, it appeared, that the prison weights were short of the legal standard; that innocent men were confined in irons; that the gaoler was in the habit of whipping and beating the prisoners by his own authority; that he was in the habit of borrowing money, and accepting bribes from the prisoners; or, as the report expressed it, that the prisoners had found out the secret of suiting their proposals to the wants of the
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governor. He had reason to think, that the governor's daughters also were sometimes tempted beyond their power to resist. These were the least enormous of the facts that would come out on the investigation. He hoped that the conduct of the inquiry would not be taken out of the hands of the right hon. gent. who had brought forward the business; but above all, he hoped that the importance of making a most complete and satisfactory investigation would be felt.
Mr. Sheridanthought the proceedings of the hon. gent. who brought forward the motion, the most extraordinary he had ever witnessed. The hon. gent. on rising asked him whether he meant to bring forward any motion upon the subject of the petition which he had presented some time ago? He had replied, that it was his intention to make a proposition on the subject in the course of next week; but instead, on that account, of waving his motion on this evening, as he expected, he had now made. precisely that motion which he intended then to submit to the house. Mr. Sheridan avowed that he was by no means fond of an inquiry into public grievances being conducted by a commission acting under the authority of the king's sign manual. He had no objections to the characters of those who had acted under the former commission; but they had not sufficient powers, and what was worse, the result of that inquiry shewed that the same attention was not paid to such a commission as was usually paid to the report of a parliamentary committee; for certainly, upon the face even of that report, there were sufficient grounds for the removal of governor Aris from this office. He was by no means sure, therefore, that the petitioners would be satisfied with the appointment of another commission under the king's sign manual, from which so little advantage had accrued in a former instance. He should, however, make it his business to inquire, whether they would be satisfied with such a proceeding, or not; and if they were not, he should still follow up his original intention of submitting a motion to the house in the course of next week. He had no objection in the mean time, that the paper moved for by the hon. gent. should be produced; but he mentioned a circumstance, to show how little weight any representation from the magistrates ought to have in circumstances like the present. A poor girl had brought a charge against a lawyer for a rape; this

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person contrived by giving money, or by some other means of influence with the governor, to get his accuser immured in a cold, damp cell, in which she was so scantily fed on bread and water, that when she came forward to give her evidence in court, she could neither speak nor stand. And the magistrates, after inquiring into the circumstances, had drawn up a representation, to which 16 signed their names, that the father of the girl was a poor button-maker, and that it was impossible that she could have been worse fed in prison than she would have been at home!
Mr. Mellishexpressed his astonishment that the report moved for was said to corroborate the allegations of the petition. It, on the contrary, contradicted them, both as to the getting the woman with child in the prison, and as to the weight of the bread. He preferred a committee of the house to a commission by government, because, he frankly owned, that it would be more satisfactory to the public.
Mr. Sumnerrepeated his desire to have a parliamentary committee in the first instance, and proposed to read a list, which his hon. friend would find to be candidly formed.
Mr. Sheridanwished to propose a list of his own. In addition to the other cases of abuse, he would mention that of a foreigner, who was insane, and who had been beaten and confined to a cell.
Mr. Mellishsaid, this foreigner, who was committed to prison for being a spy, was not confined to a cell, and there was every reason to suspect that his derangement was counterfeited.
Mr. C. Wynnecould say nothing as to the treatment of that foreigner, but his commitment was perfectly just and proper; and it was necessary he. should not leave this country, as he had information that would affect the lives of others.
Sir F. Burdettsaid, that he could not go the length of owning, that he should be perfectly satisfied though the report of the present state of the prison should be favourable, for he could not forget that Aris himself had confessed, that he had borrowed money of his prisoners, beat them, whipped them, and taken bribes from them. There was something mysterious in the support which this gaoler had received. He was notoriously a bad .character. A dramatist, he recollected, had exhibited a lawyer who had been entrapped into a good action, as desperately
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afraid lest he should be ruined, as he lived by the badness of his character. Aris, however, had no occasion, to be alarmed on this head. He had first embezzled the parish money, and then the parish put him in this situation in hopes of recovering it. This system of solitary confinement was one of the experiments established in consequence of the representations of the celebrated Howard. But it had completely failed in this instance, for the plan had never been carried on under the regulations and restrictions which Howard had proposed. It would be better to revert again to the old constitutional system.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeragreed, that there had been neglect somewhere, as nothing had been done upon the report of the former commissioners; but the administration had no connection with the gaoler. He thought that a commission by government was the best mode of proceeding in the first instance.
Lord Folkestonethought that, under the circumstances of this case, a parliamentary commission would be preferable.
Mr. Wilberforcesaid, that many happy effects had resulted from this system, though it might be liable to abuse. He thought it would be better to take this matter out of the reach of party feelings, and submit it to such magistrates and others as had bestowed considerable attention upon the subject. He therefore preferred a government commission.
Mr. Holfordsaid, he had visited the prison, and found every thing in the best order.
Mr. W. Smithsaid, that there was something mysterious in the circumstance, that nothing had been done upon the report of the former commission. He suspected that party feeling had had a great deal more weight than it ought to have had in that affair. He expressed his preference of the mode of a committee of the house.—Mr. Brand and sir John Newport also aruged in favour of a committee. The motion for copies of any presentment, &c. was then agreed to.
Mr. Sheridanthen moved for a select committee to examine the allegations of the petition, and report to the house.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerpreferred a commission in the first instance, and would therefore oppose the motion.
Mr. Whitbreaddeclared his preference of the parliamentary mode.
The house then divided on Mr. Sheridan's motion: Ayes 50, Noes 74; Majority 24.