Sitting of 10 June 1808

KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING SICILY.
Mr. Secretary Canning presented the following Message from his majesty:
"G. R. His majesty thinks it proper to inform the house of commons, that he has concluded a Treaty of Alliance and Subsidy with his Sicilian majesty. His majesty has directed a Copy of this Treaty to be laid before the house of commons, and trusts that his faithful commons will enable his majesty to make good the engagements contained therein."
Mr. Secretary Canningthen moved, that his majesty's most gracious Message be referred to the Committee of Supply. He took this opportunity of stating, that though this Treaty was now for the first time brought forward, it was no new transaction, but one which the present ministry had found to have been in the contemplation of their predecessors, and that in the year 1805 it had been intended to conclude a treaty with the king of Sicily, by which a subsidy of 300,000 l. per annum was to have been granted to that monarch. The events which occurred towards the end of that year, however, were sufficient to account for nothing being then done to bring the treaty to a completion. In the beginning of the following year, things continued in a similar state. In the autumn. Mr. Drummond had been sent for the purpose of adjusting the business, but on the return of the treaty, it was found to contain stipulations to which his majesty had been advised not to assent; and it was but lately that the business had been finally arranged. He had thought it necessary to say thus much, that the house might see that this was not a new measure.

TREATY WITH SICILY.
Mr. Secretary Canning then presented to the house a copy of the said Treaty, as follows:
"TREATY OF ALLIANCE AND SUBSIDY, between his majesty the king of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and his majesty the king of the Two Sicilies—signed at Palermo on the 30th of March, 1808.
"His majesty the king of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and his majesty the king of the Two Sicilies, being equally animated by a sincere desire of strengthening more and more the ties of friendship and good understanding which so happily subsist between them, have judged that nothing could contribute more efficaciously to that salutary end, than the conclusion of a Treaty of Alliance and Subsidy. For this purpose their said majesties have named their respective plenipotentiaries, viz. his Britannic ma-
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jesty, the right hon. William Drummond, one of his majesty's most hon. privy council, and his envoy extraordinary and minister plenipotentiary at the court of his said Sicilian majesty;—and his majesty the king of the Two Sicilies, the right illustrious and right excellent Thomas de Somma, marquis of Circello, his gentleman of the chamber, field-marshal of his armies, knight of his royal order of St. Januarius, his counsellor of state, secretary of state for the department of foreign affairs, and superintendant general of the ports; who, after having communicated their respective full powers, have agreed upon the following articles:—Art. 1. There shall be a continuance of the sincere and constant friendship between his Britannic majesty and his majesty the king of the Two Sicilies, their heirs and successors, which has always subsisted up to the present time. 2. The two high contracting parties shall afford to each other, during the present war with France, every succour and assistance, in proportion to their respective forces, and shall prevent by common consent, every thing that can cause them trouble or detriment. III. His majesty the king of the Two Sicilies engages to grant to the troops of his Britannic majesty, stationed in the fortresses of Sicily, and to all British ships of war, an exemption from all duties belonging to him, upon every thing of which the British squadrons in the Mediterranean, and the troops of that nation may stand in need, and which the country can furnish, in provisions, food, and in military and naval stores. IV. His Sicilian majesty being desirous of giving an additional proof of the sentiments by which he is animated, also engages to exempt from all duties belonging to him upon such provisions as may be requisite for the British ships of war at Malta, as well as all military stores which are to be found in the country, on condition however, that each vessel or vessels of war be furnished with a requisition from the governor of the said island, which shall specify the articles, and the quantity required. V. His Sicilian majesty further engages in virtue of the present treaty, never to allow the enemies of Great Britain to bring into any of his ports during the present war, any British ships taken by the enemies of Great Britain. VI. His Sicilian majesty also engages to open the ports of the Two Sicilies during the present war, to British squadrons, as well as to all merchant and other ships

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belonging to British subjects, without any restriction whatever, referring to the third article, with respect to exemption from duties. VII. His Britannic majesty engages in return, to defend during the present war the fortresses of Messina and Augusta, and to maintain there for that purpose, at his charge and expence, a body of troops which, in the present war shall consist of ten thousand men, and to augment their number if the case shall require it. The disposition of which troops in the said fortresses, shall be in such manner and proportion as the commanding officer (to whom every requisite facility shall be given), shall judge expedient: and his Britannic majesty stipulates, that the said general officers shall have the power of exercising martial law in the above-mentioned garrisons, with respect to their British troops, in the same manner, and according to the same rules, as are observed in other English garrisons.—Quarters for the said troops shall be provided in the abovementioned fortresses by his Sicilian majesty. VIII. His Britannic majesty farther engages to pay to his Sicilian majesty, during the continuance of the present war, an annual subsidy of 300,000 l. sterl. (to commence from the 10th of September 1805, when the British and Russian troops landed in the Neapolitan territory), payable at the rate of 25,000 l. sterling per month; which payment shall always be made one month in advance, computing from the date of the signature of the present treaty. His Sicilian majesty purposing to employ the said subsidies for the use of his marine, and of his land forces, shall regulate the distribution of them in such proportion as these two services may require, for the defence of his states, and for operations against the common enemy, and an account shall be given every three months to the British government, of the manner in which his Sicilian majesty shall have employed the subsidies paid to him by Great Britain. IX. The two high contracting parties desiring to strengthen more and more the ties which unite the two nations, and to extend their mutual relations, will employ themselves, soon as possible, in concluding a treaty of commerce, the articles of which shall be equally advantageous to the subjects of both states. X. His Sicilian majesty engages not to conclude with France a peace separate from England; and his Britannic majesty on his part also engages not to make a peace with France without
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comprehending and saving in it the interests of his Sicilian majesty. XI. The present treaty of alliance and subsidy, shall be ratified by the two high contracting parties, and the ratification shall be exchanged in due form in London, within the space of four months from the date of its signature, or sooner if possible.—In witness whereof, We, the undersigned, furnished with full powers from our respective sovereigns, have signed the present treaty, and have thereunto affixed the seal of our arms.—Done at Palermo, this 30th day of March, 1808.
(L. S.) W. DRUMMOND.
(L. S.) THOMAS DE SOMMA."

SPAIN.
Mr. Sheridangave notice, that he would on Monday next put certain questions to his majesty's ministers relative to the nature of the advices lately received from Spain, tending to ascertain the state of that country, the conduct that this country ought to pursue with respect to it, and the conduct his majesty's government meant to pursue. He did not mean to press for any improper disclosure, either with regard to Spain, or the measures to be adopted here, but merely to come to an, understanding upon general facts and principles.

PUBLICANS LICENSES.
Mr. Sheridanrose to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the act for licensing alehouse-keepers, inn-keepers, &c. Alluding to the meetings held for some time past, at the St. Alban's tavern, for the purpose of preventing any rise in the rate of Posting, he took occasion to express his reprobation of all such combinations among lords and commoners, as, if attempted among the poor and labouring classes of the community, would be deemed illegal, and punished as such. Seeing an hon. member and magistrate for the county of Sussex, however, in the house, he could riot refrain from candidly stating to him a circumstance relating to that hon. member which had reached him, and by the hon. member's explanation of that circumstance he should be enabled to judge, whether he must not extend his bill further than he originally intended. The circumstance to which he alluded was this; that at one of these meetings at the St. Alban's Tavern, it having been doubted, whether it would be better for them to apply for the interference of parliament, or to proceed in their own parliament, that hon. gent. had said, that they were both idle measures, and that the one he recommended to the magistrates of Sussex was

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the effectual mode, namely, to stop the licence of every person who presumed to raise the rate of posting. He gave the hon. member an opportunity of saying, whether the fact was or was not so; and concluded by moving for leave to bring in the bill.
Mr. Fullersaid, that instead of being either lord or commoner, as the hon. gent, would have it be supposed all the associators at the St. Alban's tavern were, his informant must have been a post-master. He never did say what the hon. gent, had stated. He had said, that the best mode of effecting their purpose was by encouraging a competition: and where there was only a single house, to encourage a rival. He had said, that the power of checking the evil in this respect, where charges were enormous, was in the breast of the magistrates themselves; and that they were too frequently enormous, he instanced the charge of 150 l. made by an inn-keeper on the French ambassador for a breakfast. He had as much regard for the liberty of the subject as any man, and so had his father before him.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobjected to a measure of this kind, which had been formerly withdrawn, on account of the late period of the session, being again brought forward, without any ground assigned, and also at an advanced period of the session. He should therefore negative the motion.
Mr. H. Browne, Mr. Giddy, Mr. M. A. Taylor, and Mr. Rose, all spoke against the measure, which was negatived without a division.

LOCAL MILITIA BILL.
This bill was read a third time. After which,
Lord Castlereaghintroduced a number of new clauses by way of riders. Four of these, supplying omissions of the bill, were read and agreed to. On the fifth being brought up, which went to confer on magistrates the power of allotting at their discretion, to persons giving information of offences against the said act, a part not exceeding one third of the penalty, on conviction,
Mr. Barhamobjected to this mode of introducing new provisions into a bill, without affording any opportunity of duly considering them.
Mr. Windhamconcurred in the opinion of the hon. gent, declaring that he thought five riders upon one horse were too many, however long his back might be.
Lord Castlereaghstated, that all the
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clauses which he had hitherto proposed, contained nothing more than what was necessary to carry into effect the provisions of the bill.
Sir J. Newportthought this clause of much importance, and that it was of still greater importance, not to allow this new practice of adding so much additional matter, without a possibility of ascertaining its precise tendency.
The house then divided. For the clause, 61; Against it, 15.—Majority, 46.
Lord Castlereaghthen proposed a clause, enabling the magistrates to call out the Local Militia in cases of riot; and providing that whatever number of days they should be out in this manner, should be deducted from the subsequent number of days of drill.
Sir F. Burdenopposed it as shifting the power lodged by the constitution in the sheriff to the magistrates.
Mr. Windhamthought the clause would be vesting enormous powers in the magistrates; and that it would be useless in its operations, as it would be easier to call in the regular troops, than to assemble this force when dispersed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdefended the clause. If any disturbance existed in the country, to whom could the house intrust the power given by this clause, more safely than to the magistrates.
Mr. Whitbreadcharacterised the clause as a great innovation on the constitution.
Mr. D. Giddydenied that it was any innovation on the constitution.
Sir S. Romillycontended, that as it was a perfect novelty, and involved in it most important principles, it ought not to be introduced by way of rider to a bill, but ought to be brought forward in a separate form, and deliberately discussed.
A division ensued; for the clause 97; against it 30; Majority, 67.
Mr. Whitbreadwas desirous of proposing a modification by which this obnoxious clause might be amended, if this were the proper time to do so.
The Speakerinformed the hon. gent. that this was not the proper time.
Mr. Sheridancould not conceive that any amendment could render this clause tolerable. It was one of the most direct infringements on the constitution that he had ever known. Its dangerous tendency could be equalled only by its absurdity. If it were thought advisable to give to the magistracy this power over the Local Militia, why not give

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them the same power over the volunteers, over the old Militia, or over the regular army? Nothing could be more ridiculous than the present proposition. How would it be possible to collect the Local Militia for the purpose of suppressing a riot, and if collected how were they suddenly to procure their arms? He presumed, that if a riot took place on Saturday, the notices for the Local Militia to assemble were to be affixed to the church doors on Sunday, and that early on Monday morning they were to begin to set to work to restore tranquillity. He gave the clause his most decided opposition.
Lord Castlereaghstated, that this clause was literally copied from the Volunteer acts, and as a considerable number of the volunteer corps were likely to become a Local Militia, it was desirable to have the same provision applicable to them in case of their being called out on this service.
Mr. Windhamargued against the clause, because the regular troops, in case of being called out to suppress a riot, acted with a degree of caution which would not be exercised by an undisciplined force.—
On the question that the clause be read a third time,
Mr. Whitbreadproposed as an amendment, 'that the magistrates, or deputy lieutenants, calling out the Local Militia incases of riot, should not be officers of such Militia;' which was negatived.
Mr. Sheridanproposed that some personal notice should be served upon the members in the Local Militia when called out on such occasions, before any penalty could attach; but that suggestion was over-ruled; after which the clause was added to the bill by way of rider.
Several amendments were then proposed and made to the body of the bill. On the clause directing that the surplus of the amount of fines and penalties, over the amount of fines paid into the Bank, should be defrayed out of the county rate,
Mr. C. Wynneobjected to that provision, as likely to produce an injurious and unequal effect, and moved an amendment to leave out the words, "that a separate account be kept of fines and penalties." Some short conversation took place upon this amendment, but it was negatived without a division.—On the motion that the bill do pass,
Mr. Windhamcongratulated the house upon the lessons which it had received in the course of the evening, in the science of legislation, by the different processes of
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erasure, engrossing, &c. which used to be transacted out of doors. These processes, however, had occupied so much of the time of the house (no less than five hours) that he should now compress what he had to state into a small compass. He observed in setting out, that the military establishment of this and every other country was composed of two divisions, the army and what was not army. Of the former division he did not now intend to speak; respecting the latter, it was constituted upon two principles, either of being incorporated or not incorporated; and this distinction formed the great, ground of difference between himself and the noble lord. The noble lord was of opinion; that the whole subsidiary force of the country should be regimented; he thought, on the contrary, that the enrolment, and a certain degree of training, was all that was necessary; and that the incorporation proposed to be carried into effect by the bill was a great burthen, and would be attended with very little benefit. No man would seriously contend, that these regiments of local militia would be fit to be placed in the line of the army in case of invasion; and if they could not be so employed, incorporating them in regiments was locking up a part of the population of the country, starving the army, and absolutely purchasing weakness at an enormous expence. With respect to the advantage of discipline, it would not be great in either case; indeed, it might be so little, that the value of the difference must be considered evanescent. But the species of force it gave the country for the expence was the consideration; and for what object was this expence to be incurred? Why, for nothing else but to have an incorporated force, officered by the topping men of the district, such as Mr. Such-a-one, the general dealer, and Mr. What-d' ye-call him, the attorney. It was ridiculous to place any dependence on a species of national defence so arranged. Would any man, who knew what had taken place on the continent of Europe, be so credulous as to believe such men able to cope with the disciplined armies of France, which, if they should come at all, must come flushed with conquest? He, at least, who was a volunteer officer, and an unmilitary man, must be allowed to apprehend great danger in depending upon such a description of force, and of locking up in it such a portion of our population, within the ages of 18 and 30, and this at

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an enormous expence, an expence almost exceeding the belief of most men, and which went not to purchase strength, but actual weakness. Did the noble lord think, that by such a force he would frighten Buonaparte, and strike terror into the invading armies? What was it then that the army clothier could produce? If their being stuck into regimentals would produce this surprising effect on the enemy, it was a wonder that the noble lord did not follow up the measure, and render them more formidable by encouraging the growth of whiskers. If the house should feel willing to accede to the principle of this measure, and to rest its hopes upon a tumultuary force, or upon the refuse of an army, let it at least profit by the experience which the fate of other countries must have afforded. If the country was to employ and pay for dirt, for God's sake let it be English dirt. Let it employ its stout athletic colliers and coal-heavers. Let it pay its aspiring chimneysweepers for their exertions. They could in their own way annoy the enemy; and when pursued, could climb the trees with the facility of squirrels. But the noble lord was friendly to the bustle of the thing. He liked to see men marching out of this village in order to be drilled in the contiguous one. He conceived the public would be struck with its efficacy and execution, for the noble lord might be assured that it would take great effect. The number of the undone would be considerable, and at least amongst the poor persons ruined by its operation, he would be enabled to furnish a large Gazette of killed and wounded. He concluded by observing, that the arguments of the noble lord accorded with the arguments of the vulgar, that what was most expensive was best: it reminded him of the story of the countryman who came to town to have his tooth drawn, who, astonished at the little pain with which the operation was performed, refused paying the operator half-a-guinea, saying, that in the country he could have the job done for half-a-crown, and be dragged round the room into the bargain.
Sir F. Burdettexpressed his disapprobation of the measure, both as oppressive and unconstitutional. The bill united in itself all opposite defects. It was at once oppressive and ineffectual; harrassing to the subject, and at the same time completely impotent as a measure of national defence. It ought rather to be called a
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bill of pains and penalties, than a bill for the defence of the country, as it contained no less than eleven penalties, without counting those which might have been annexed to the clause brought up by the noble lord this evening. He did not think that we ought to trust for our defence to a standing army alone, after having seen it fail in so many instances in other countries. But we ought to look at the internal condition of the people, upon which the existing taxes already bore too heavily, and which would certainly be rendered much worse in consequence of the oppressive enactments of the present bill. He professed himself to be a great enemy to the practice of flogging, as detrimental even to the service itself; and in this opinion he was supported by the rule of the French armies, where this practice was wholly exploded. The noble lord seemed to act on the principle of 'evil, be thou my good;' he had altered the system of the right hon. gent. on this side (Mr. Windham), which must in its natural tendency have considerably added to the eligibility of the situation of a soldier's life; and he now proposed to pervert the character and habits of the British people at large. If such a system was to be carried into execution, if the poisoned cup was to be coolly administered to the lips of Englishmen, it was fit that it should be furnished by the self-same person that had viewed with coldness the scenes which had been witnessed in Ireland. A delicate word: might sometimes be used to express a cruel or a barbarous action, and in this; light, the delicate term 'discipline' might be used to convey an idea of lacerating men's backs; of tearing, by means of the scourge, the live flesh off men's bones. This was by some called flogging; but, if the noble lord through delicacy called this 'discipline,' the hon. bart. said he had only to wish that he might keep his delicate hands off the backs of Englishmen.
The Secretary at Wardefended the system pursued in the British army, against the insinuations of the hon. baronet; and asked how an army could be kept together or be harmless without enforcing discipline? Was not the necessity of discipline manifested by the experience of all nations and of all times?
The Hon. F. Robinsoncontended, that the discipline in the British army was milder than in the army of any other country. The discipline in Russia and

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Prussia was severe to a proverb; and it was well known that the stick was frequently employed in the French army [A loud cry of No, no.] The hon. gent. could only assure the house that he had heard so from persons who were witnesses of the fact.
Mr. C. W. Wynnesupported the measure, as believing that it must be productive of a much better system than the present volunteer establishment.
Mr. W. Smithdenied, from the best authority, that the stick was made use of in the French army, as a mode of punishment. At the same time, though he knew it was by no means general, he could maintain that such a mode of enforcing discipline, was practised here [a cry of No!] Gentlemen might cry No, but he had been an eye-witness of the tact. He mentioned it with a hope that its being publicly noticed might lead to the correction of so gross an error, such a breach of the military constitution.
General M. Mathewsaid that he would bring the officer to a court martial who would presume to use any man under his command in the manner that had been alluded to.
Mr. M. A. Taylorwas of opinion, that it: would be improper to have the Local Militia on a different footing in point of discipline from the regular militia.
Admiral Harveyobserved, that both soldiers and sailors in the French service were flogged with a cat-of-nine-tails.
Sir Jas. Hallin rising to support the bill, begged to have it understood that he was not inclined to do so from any love which he bore to the measure itself, nor from any expectation that the great inconveniences to which it would expose the country, would be compensated by any adequate addition to our internal strength; but as leading to the measure proposed by his noble relation the earl of Selkirk, to which it bore a considerable resemblance in point of form, though very different in spirit and tendency. The difference between the two systems depended principally upon one practical circumstance, by the alteration of which one of these systems might be converted into the other; namely, the circumstance of raising the men required by a ballot upon all persons from 18 to 35, as proposed by the noble lord; or, on the other hand, by calling out all the young men who in each successive year attained the age of 18, as proposed by his noble friend. He had concurred with some of
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his friends in endeavouring to obtain that alteration in the committee, but without success. In the course of that discussion, however, the noble lord by whom this measure has been brought forward, admitted with great candour, that the characteristic feature of lord Selkirk's plan, by which the youngest persons of the community were exclusively called out in the first instance, was superior to his own, in the abstract; but he was induced to abandon that advantage, and to adhere to the plan proposed, as best calculated to maintain the establishment produced by the volunteer system, to repair the breaches made in that force by the decay of the spirit which first raised it, and to till up the blanks occasioned by its original failure in particular occasions. The hon. member expressed his conviction that the volunteer system was admirably calculated to do away all internal discontent and commotion, and that in this way it had saved the country from the utmost danger; but that the slight degree of military discipline required for this purpose was totally unequal to what our present situation required, threatened as we were by the most tremendous military force. The attachment of the noble lord to the volunteer system, now decayed and superannuated, might be harmless in common times, but it was ruinous at present, by consuming the precious time which circumstances allowed for preparation. The danger to which we were exposed, arose not only from the force opposed to us, but still more from our situation at home; from the strange apathy, the idle confidence, which pervaded this country; an apathy, an idle confidence, no where so conspicuous, or so astonishing as within these walls. A situation never occurred in history more noble, more conspicuous, than that in which the house stood. The bulwarks of humanity were battered down; they stood alone in the breach, an awful responsibility lay upon them; but they had a gallant nation at their back ready to follow every spirited lead, with the more alacrity as it was spirited, but if they were careless and sluggish with regard to such an essential object, what could be expected from the people? This carelessness seemed to arise, not from want of spirit or activity, but from the contemplation of a calamity against which we saw no remedy, and from which we shrunk as from the contemplation of death. The plan before us offered no refuge from this desperate view; but

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that such a refuge was furnished by the plan of his noble friend, which, by raising this country to the dignity of an armed nation, afforded the means, not only of extricating us from our present difficulties, but also of transmitting the constitution unimpaired to our posterity. As no better could be done, he was induced now to support the plan proposed by the noble lord, which by its practical application, and chiefly by its defects, might be the means of bringing the plan of his noble relation into notice.
General Stewartsupported the measure, and maintained that any private soldier could obtain redress by an application to his royal highness the commander in, chief.
Mr. W. Smithdid not mean to impute any thins; in the least improper to his royal highness, neither did he mean to say that the practice was general.
The house then divided. For the bill, 104; Against it, 26. Majority, 78. The bill was then passed, and ordered to the lords.