Sitting of 2 July 1808

SUGAR DISTILLATION.
The Sugar Distillery bill was brought from the lords, with an amendment, to which their lordships desired the concurrence of the commons.
Mr. R. Dundas Mr. R. Dundas moved, that the house do agree to the lords amendment in this bill. The bill, in fact, now stood in the precise state in which it was when it left that house. An alteration had surreptitiously been made in the bill in its passage from that to the other house of parliament, by substituting the words Great Britain for the word England, and the amendment of the lords only brought back the bill to that state in which it was when last before them.—The amendment was accordingly agreed to.

CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhaving moved the usual grants to the officers of the house, &c. and among others the sum of 1200 l. to Mr. Wharton for his trouble in acting as chairman of the public committees of that house,
Mr. Biddulphtook occasion to repeat the objections he had more than once urged to this grant, which was equal to the allowance made to the commissioners of customs and excise. The duty to be performed by these gentlemen was constant, whereas the labour of the chairman of the committees of ways and means ceased with the session of parliament; which it was also his duty to attend, independantly of any emolument. If, therefore, 1200 l. a year was a sufficient remuneration for a commissioner of customs or excise, he was of opinion it was greatly too much to be paid for the discharge of the duties of chairman of the committees of supply and

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of ways and means.—The different votes were then put and agreed to.

BOARD OF AGRICULTURE.
Sir John Sinclairstated, that the Board of Agriculture had been engaged for some time in collecting Reports of all the different parts of the country, which were to be made the ground work of one general report, exhibiting a complete detail of the internal state of agriculture of the kingdom. This, it must be admitted, was a very important object, and one of great public utility. To complete this object, only 1500 l. would be required, a sum, which, as it was not to be annual, but was merely an accidental expence, he was convinced the house would not think of any moment, when compared with the advantages to be expected from the report. He therefore moved, "That an humble address be presented to his majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to order, that the sum of 1500 l. be paid to the Board of Agriculture, to enable them to complete the Reports, which they are now engaged in collecting from the different parts of the country, for the purpose of framing a general report of the state of agriculture throughout the kingdom."—His majesty's consent being signified to this application, the address was agreed to.

PRISONS IN IRELAND.
Mr. Sheridansaid he should have felt it to be his duty to address the house at considerable length on this subject, did he not understand that the inquiry which it was his intention to propose, would not meet with any opposition. He should, therefore, abstain from any of those details which if entered into could not fail to disgust the feelings of the house, and might provoke irritation among those who were more immediately the objects of suffering. He was satisfied that an inquiry into the evils complained of would do ministers credit, and he would rather have seen them enter into it voluntarily, than urged on to the investigation. In bringing forward the present question, he declared that he was actuated solely by that feeling which he hoped hitherto had characterized, and should continue to characterize, his parliamentary conduct; a consciousness of the propriety, if not of the necessity, of what he proposed, and an ardent desire to discharge his duty to the public. The right hon. gent. then proceeded to quote the reports of the inspector-genera of prisons in Ireland. He remarked that many of the evils which now existed had been enumerated in the report
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of 1805, but that no notice had ever been taken of them in that house, although it appeared from that report, that, out of 1500 or 1600 persons imprisoned during 1803, not one in 500 of the committals had been made upon oath, and that fifteen-sixteenths of them had been discharged without trial, or any evidence even of a suspicion of their guilt being produced. From the report of the inspector for the year 1807, numberless heavy grievances appeared to exist. In some, instances, the jails were insecure; in some, the jailors were represented as inhuman fellows; in Cork county and city, the scite of the prison was swampy, and calculated to produce fevers and agues, and jobbing and avarice had no bounds. Throughout the whole, the low salaries of the jailors were pleaded as the excuse for corruption, extortion, and negligence. As to food, in some instances the loaf was scandalously small, to many prisoners not three-fourths of a pound of bread was given a day. He particularly alluded to the state of Kilmainham jail, and to the conduct of Dr. Trevor, superintendant of it. He had abstained from bringing forward this business till he was in possession of evidence under the hands of the parties concerned, as to the conduct of this person, who was represented in the narratives of messrs. Tandy and Mason as of the most inhuman, hardened, and malignant disposition. The right hon. gent, proceeded to read several very serious charges against this person, and concluded with moving, "That an humble Address be presented to his majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to direct that a Special Commission should be appointed to enquire into and inspect the condition and government of the state prisons and other gaols in the city and county of Dublin, and such other gaols in Ireland as they shall judge it proper to direct their attention to, and to investigate the treatment of the prisoners therein confined since the year 1798, where ground of complaint shall be preferred, and also to examine into the conduct of those entrusted with the rule and government of the said prisons; and to report thereon."
General Mathew seconded the motion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerregretted that the motion was deferred until a period when those members could not be present who were the best informed upon the subject. Although he should not oppose the motion, he trusted he should not be supposed to acquiesce in the right hon. gent's

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statements. He adverted to the inquiry that had been made during lord Hardwicke's administration, which was among the printed papers laid before that house in 1805, and on which it had not been thought necessary by the house to take any steps. He regretted that the right hon. gent. should have made such an ex parte statement against individuals, who would have no means of exculpating themselves until the next session of parliament.
Mr. W. Polewished that the right hon. gent. had brought forward his motion when the Irish members were present, convinced as he was (from his own local knowledge) that those members would have declared the futility of the statements that had been made. He examined some of the reports, and detected several misrepresentations that existed in them. He supported the motion, because it could do no harm, and might do much good.
Mr. Beresforddefended the character of Dr. Trevor, who was generally esteemed as a man of great humanity and kindness. He had heard the unfortunate Emmett acknowledge this at the scaffold in the warmest terms.
Mr. Whitbreadthought the public highly indebted to his right hon. friend for the institution of an inquiry, from which, in his opinion, a great deal of good would probably result.
Colonel Verekerdefended the magistrates of the county of Galway, from any share in the imputation attempted to be thrown on the whole country.
Mr. Peter Moorewould only make an observation or two on what had been said on the other side, and particularly by the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, with respect to an investigation having been made into these alleged grievances, by the authority of lord Hardwicke as lord lieutenant of Ireland, the report of which he stated to have been laid before this house and printed in 1805. Mr. Moore said, that being intent on obtaining all possible information, he regularly watched all the documents laid before this house for that purpose; and that having given the subject of these alleged grievances his earnest attention, it was almost impossible that, such an important document as the report in question could have escaped him, had it ever been before the house; as from the description given by the right hon. gent., it went to preclude all further inquiry into the claims of justice, so forcibly stated in the various petitions before
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the house, and that under this impression he was very much surprised when his right hon. friend (Mr. Sheridan) informed him a few days ago, that in a conversation with the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, he was told, that such a report had been made and printed, laying all these grievances at rest; but, in order to remove the doubt which it naturally threw on his own opinion, as coming from such authority, he instantly went to the vote office, where, with all the care and diligence with which it is conducted, the officers assisted him in several searches of their books, and at length they found an entry that pointed to something like a report in 1805, as mentioned by the right hon. gent, opposite. That report, Mr. Moore said, he held in his hand, and the right hon. gent, would see, on inspection, that it was a report stating only the names and number of prisoners, without the least mark of investigation, or appearance of proceeding thereon; and from the minute examinations which had been made in the vote office, Mr. Moore said, he was perfectly satisfied there was no other report. But, continued Mr. Moore, if there ever has been an investigation into these alleged abuses, it must have been very snugly and closely managed, as it must be manifest to the house, that the aggrieved petitioners (without whom such an investigation was a farce), who ought especially to have had notice of it and to have been present, had never heard of it, and were still petitioning this house, imploring such a hearing and such an investigation as that which is said to have taken place and been decided on. But he now hoped, that if such a report did exist, whatever it might be, that report, together with all the petitions which had been presented, and all the documents which had been laid before the house, would be referred to the commissioners to be appointed for making another investigation, who should be instructed to feel and consider the honour and character of our government to be its first and principal, and the justice due to individuals only as its secondary object. And he hoped and trusted, that in this spirit and understanding, the motion of his right hon. friend would meet with the unanimous support of the house.—The motion was then agreed to.

DISMISSAL OF THE LATE MR. DALRYMPLE.
Mr. R. Wardagain alluded to the discussion which had taken place on a former night as to the causes of the dis-

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missal of Mr. Dalrymple from the office of hydrographer to the Admiralty, and stated that he understood an hon. gent. opposite to him was now satisfied on this head.
Mr. Hornersaid, he had taken some part in the conversation on this subject on a former night. He had since been shewn the correspondence on the subject, and he was satisfied that Mr. Dalrymple had exhibited a degree of contumacy which was probably inconsistent with the performance of his duties to the admiralty. He was of opinion, however, that if the board had exhibited to that respectable gentleman the greatest possible degree of liberality and indulgence, it was nothing but what his long and meritorous services justly entitled him to.
Mr. W. Polesaid, that considering the manner in which he had formerly been alluded to, when a noble lord, not then present, had brought the subject of the removal of Mr. Dalrymple before the house, and the peculiar situation in which he stood respecting that transaction, he trusted he might be permitted to give some explanation of what had passed. He said he owed it to the public, to the admiralty, and to himself, to state the circumstances which had led to Mr. Dalrymple's removal: it would give him extreme pain to be under the necessity of bringing anything before the house or the public that could in any degree tend to create uneasiness to the friends of Mr. Dalrymple, or could at all affect the memory of that respectable gentleman. Mr. Pole said, he understood the hon. gent. to have expressed himself to be satisfied, that under the circumstances of the case, as he found them in the papers which had been prepared, and had been shewn to the hon. gent, by his hon. friend (Mr. Ward), the board of admiralty could not do otherwise than dismiss Mr. Dalrymple. He understood the hon. gent, to say, that the duty the admiralty owed to the public, certainly justified them completely in the step they had taken. He seemed to admit that they had treated Mr. Dalrymple with justice. But Mr. Pole said, he owned it astonished him to hear the hon. gent, insinuate, that more lenity might have been shewn, and that he should have been better pleased if more indulgence and liberality had been shewn him.
Mr. Hornerrose and said the hon. gent. had quite misunderstood him, he had meant no such insinuation, what he had said was in quite another view.
Mr. W. Poleresumed: he said he was extremely glad to find that he had misunderstood the hon. gent. He certainly thought he had meant such an insinuation. He then begged permission of the house to state the circumstances which led to Mr. Dalrymple's removal; that about the month of Nov. last, the first lord of the admiralty, upon ascertaining that his majesty's fleets were not supplied with charts upon any regular and settled principle, and considering that great inconvenience had arisen from the king's ships in many parts of the world being unfurnished with proper charts for their guidance, determined to lay down a system by which in future all his majesty's ships in every part of the world should be supplied with the best charts existing for the station to which they might belong; and in order to effect this most desirable and important object, the first lord of the admiralty had called upon the board to issue their orders to the hydrographer to prepare a proper selection. Mr. Dalrymple, in return to this order, had stated that he was incompetent to make the selection, from not having a local knowledge of many seas, and for a variety of other reasons; and he recommended that in order to carry the first lord's plan into execution, a committee of ten officers should be appointed to select and arrange the charts proper to be issued to the navy. From the moment however that this committee, as recommended by Mr. Dalrymple, was appointed, it became impossible for them to proceed in the performance of their duty. It had fallen to his lot, as it was a part of his duty, to examine into the state of the hydrographer's office; it was impossible to describe the confusion in which he found it; from Mr. Dalrymple's infirmities, it could not be otherwise. He wished at all times, as he always had done, to speak of that venerable and respectable gentleman, with every possible degree of tenderness and attention, with all the consideration due to his talents, to his great acquirements and his eminent services. But it was impossible not to admit, that the state of his office was such, as to prevent all chance of proceeding with the arrangements necessary for the good of the service under his management. The house would perceive the truth of this remark, when he informed them, that Mr. Dalrymple's habits were such, that he seldom or never came to his office before three o'clock, and that the office of the hydrographer closed at

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four. A variety of unpleasant circumstances occurred, upon which Mr. Pole said, he would not dwell; several discussions took place at the board of admiralty on the subject. It was found to be impossible to proceed with the plans that had been ordered, unless Mr. Dalrymple retired from his office; and the board were extremely desirous that Mr. Dalrymple should be removed in the manner most grateful to his feelings, and upon the footing the most creditable and delicate towards him. It became, Mr. Pole said, his duty to communicate the sentiments of their lordships to Mr. Dalrymple. In the month of April an interview took place, and Mr. Dairymple had printed an account of the conversation that passed at it; this account, Mr. Pole said, was certainly not correct; it was indeed almost impossible that it should be so, as it was certainly set down merely from memory, and the conversation was a very long one. He believed, however, that no person who had seen Mr. Dalrymple's report of the conversation would say that his part of it, at least, was not conducted in a spirit of conciliation, and with all the respect and delicacy due to a person of Mr. Dalrymple's character and high attainments. He had been instructed to tell Mr. Dalrymple, that their lordships proposed he should retire upon the largest pension they were authorized to give by his majesty's order in council. The conversation closed by Mr. Dairymple's refusing to be superannuated; and from that period, said Mr. Pole, to the end of the month of May, many things occurred that rendered it at length absolutely necessary that Mr. Dalrymple's removal should take place. It became a question whether he should remain, and the public service, in a matter thought of the utmost importance to the safety of the king's ships in every part of the world, be absolutely impeded; or whether he should retire upon an allowance, deemed by his majesty in council an adequate reward for long and faithful services. The board of admiralty determined upon the latter proceeding, and he had been commanded to write to him, acquainting him with their lordships' decision. His letter on the 28th of May, Mr. Dalrymple had also printed. It would be seen, he trusted, that it was written in the same spirit of consideration for Mr. Dairymple's feelings, which the admiralty had manifested through the whole transaction. There was one passage in the letter which
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required explanation: the board of admiralty had directed him to state to Mr. Dalrymple, that upon application for superannuation, their lordships would order his retirement upon a pension to the full extent allowed by the king's order in council. The admiralty had given this order, because they conceived that in granting public money to any individual, they were bound to shew the public that the individual, however meritorious, was not so circumstanced as to be enabled to retire without requiring aid, which his majesty was pleased to sanction in such cases. Mr. Dalrymple, however, disdained to make the application; but the admiralty, the day after his removal, having heard, that his circumstances were not affluent, but that he objected to make to them the usual application, had directed an order to be sent to the navy board for his superannuation, which accordingly took place. Mr. Pole concluded by trusting he had satisfied the house, that through the whole of this proceeding the utmost respect, consideration, and tenderness, had been manifested to Mr. Dalrymple, and that his removal from his office had arisen from absolute necessity.
Mr. Hornerrepeated what he had formerly stated. He imputed no blame, to the admiralty board for dismissing Mr. Dalrymple: as he had already said, he should have been better pleased, if they had pursued their indulgence to the utmost degree to which it could be carried, which, in his opinion, they might have done on account of the past and meritorious services of that very eminent and respectable man.