Sitting of 19 February 1808

PETITION RESPECTING THE COLD-BATH-FIELDS PRISON.
Mr. Sheridanheld in his hand a Petition similar to that which he had yesterday withdrawn, in deference to what seemed to be the sense of the house. Yet though he had given way he could not help thinking that there was no sufficient reason for refusing to receive the petition. The doors of parliament ought to be thrown open as wide as possible, for the reception of the petitions of the subject representing his grievances; and if a petition was to be rejected merely because at the moment of presenting it the petitioners were not in the precise situation in which they described themselves to be, merely because they did not designate themselves properly, that designation being wholly immaterial to the subject of the petition, it would give rather an unfavourable impression as to the disposition which it was proper that parliament should be known to have to attend to all just complaints. The petitioners were, in part, grand jurors of the county of Middlesex on the day on which the petition was signed, the 3d of Nov. last, but on that day they ceased to be so. The present petition was from the foreman of that grand jury, Mr. Stephens, in his individual capacity. He wished to know however, whether he might not this day again offer to the sense of the house the petition which he had withdrawn yesterday.
The Speakerrecommended the right hon. gent. to acquiesce in the sense of the house expressed yesterday, as to the propriety of admitting that petition.
Mr. Sheridansubmitted, but he declared he would never again acquiesce in what he felt to be wrong. He then presented the petition, which was as follows:
"To the knights, citizens, and burgesses of the honourable house of commons, of G. Britain and Ireland, in the united parliament assembled: The Petition of Alexander Stephens, of the honourable society of the Middle Temple, and Park House, in the county of Middlesex, esq. humbly sheweth, That certain persons lately serving the office of grand jurymen for the county of Middlesex, to the number of about nine, having visited the House of Correction for the said county, commonly called the Cold-Bath-Fields Prison, on Tuesday, Nov. 3, in the year of our Lord 1807, between the hours of 11 and 12 in
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the forenoon: They there discovered, that all the loaves found by them (each of which ought to contain 16 ounces, and to be distributed daily, at 10 o'clock in the morning) were greatly deficient in point of quantity, as will be seen from the annexed statement on the part of one of the magistrates of the city of London: That the prison weight demanded and used upon the present occasion, for trying the loaves in rotation, proved also deficient, as was fully demonstrated in both instances on the same day, when compared with the standard at Guildhall, in the presence, first, of sir W. Leighton, knight, then lord mayor; and afterwards of R. Phillips, esq. then and still one of the sheriffs of London and Middlesex, as well as of four of the late grand jury; and, moreover, that the scales of the said prison were false and fraudulent." 'Copy of a letter from Mr. Sheriff Phillips to William Mainwaring, esq. chairman of the quarter sessions, &c. Sir; I consider it a duty which I owe the public to inform you, as chairman of the quarter sessions, and, I believe, one of the committee for conducting the business of the prison, that I was present when an appeal was lately made by the grand jury of the county to the standard weights in Guildhall; that I witnessed the examination of the pound weight for weighing meat and other provisions in the house of correction, Cold-Bath-Fields, when it was found to be seven-eighths of an ounce too light; and that on weighing some loaves which were found in the same prison, by the grand jury, they appeared also to be considerably too light, one or two of them being from an ounce and a half to two ounces under weight. I should compromise the feelings which I bear towards the respectable magistracy of the county of Middlesex, if I were to omit to make this formal communication. I have the honour to be, &c.—R. PHILLIPS, Sheriff;—Bridge-street, Nov. 13, 1807.'—Your petitioner, together with other gentlemen, late members of the grand jury, also discovered, that several of the liege subjects of this realm were committed to close custody in cells destitute of fire, 8 feet 3 inches long, by 6 feet 3 inches wide, two of them in irons, although sick; some, if not all, of these were innocent in point of fact, as all were then innocent in point of law, being detained under the pretext of re-examination, and consequently uncondemned by the legal judg-

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ment of their peers, or even the accusatory verdict of a grand jury. Of this number were a mother, a daughter, and a son, of creditable appearance; the two former in one cell, so situated as to be exposed to a continual current of external air, without the possibility of obtaining, even during the severest frost, an artificial warmth by means of fuel, while the convicts below enjoyed all the comforts of an open roomy ward, with occasional access to fire. That in one of these lonely cells was closely confined a foreigner of some rank, the Chevalier de Blin, who, as we were told, by one of the jailors, while so immured, had been deprived of his reason, and who presented to your petitioner, after communicating with him for some time in the French language through the key-hole, and demanding entrance, a memorial on his knees. That in this place, originally destined for the improvement of the morals of petty offenders, a female prisoner, as we have learned, has been lately debauched by the son of the chief jailor, or governor, who then held an office of trust in the prison, and has since had a child, now, or at least lately, burdensome to the parish of Kensington, in the county of Middlesex. That four debtors were shut up in this house of correction, the only communication between whom and the world, appears to take place occasionally, by means of two iron gates, at upwards of six feet distance from each other, with a jailor walking in at intervals, so as to preclude complaint; and that from the examination of a debtor, and also, by a letter from him, both in the possession of your petitioner, it appears that he was shut up with persons guilty of robbery, and unnatural crimes. And, lastly, that six innocent persons, the bills against whom had been thrown out by the grand jury, were dragged from Cold-Bath-Fields Prison to Hicks's-hall, in open day, at the close of the session, first manacled, and then fastened together by a rope, to be discharged by proclamation. Your petitioner, therefore, conceiving that such gross instances of fraud, coupled with such an open violation of the laws, and even of the express orders of session, are calculated to bring his majesty's government into contempt, and cast an unmerited odium on our most excellent constitution; thinking also, that if such malpractices were detected in a casual and slight survey, of less than two hours duration, far greater abuses are likely to be brought to light by the in-
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tervention of the grand inquest of the nation, most humbly and earnestly solicits this honourable house to take the premises into consideration, and by a public and open examination at its bar, or any other mode, afford such relief as may seem meet.
align="right">A. STEPHENS."
Mr. Sheridan,in moving that the Petition should lie on the table, felt it unnecessary to recommend it to that attention which he was sure his majesty's ministers would be disposed voluntarily to pay to it. But he begged more particularly to recal the recollection of those gentlemen the Report of the committee of the house of commons, in the year 1800. The facts and suggestions contained in that report were yet unapplied in the way of reformation or relief.
The chancellor of the Exchequercontended, that the house could not with propriety, have received the petition of last might, on account of the petitioners presenting themselves under a designation which did not properly belong to them. If the house were once to admit the principle of petitioners approaching them under any other character than that to which they were strictly and properly entitled, it was possible to say what abuses might follow. Having stated thus much on the point of form, he would now state to the house, what had passed between him and the gentleman who had represented to him the matter contained in the Petition offered to the consideration of the house. He told that gentleman, that if he would give him the facts in an official form, he would lay them before the secretary of state for the home department, with the strongest recommendation which he could give, though he was sure no recommendation would be required to call the attention of that noble person to a case of such a nature, coming in a proper authenticated and tangible shape. The communication was, in fact, made to his noble friend: but it came in an unofficial form, marked 'private,' and he could not feel himself warranted in taking any public step upon it, not holding himself at liberty to mention the name, or to designate the source from which he had derived his information. He saw no necessity in presenting this petition, unless it were with a view to insinuate that his majesty's ministers were inclined to neglect what they were in fact perfectly disposed to do, if they were supplied with proper materials to proceed upon.
Mr. Secretary Canningstated, that he also had received a letter upon this subject, which he had transmitted to his noble friend the secretary for the home department.
Mr. Sheridanwished to know the distinction taken in this case between an official and unofficial form of communication. The individuals concerned could make the communication, as it appeared from all that had been said, only as private persons.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that when a communication was marked 'private,' no disclosure could with propriety be made of its contents, nor of the name of its author, nor could it in any way be used as a public document.
Mr. Sheridansaid there must have been some mistake on this head, as such privacy could never have been intended by those who put themselves so publickly forward in this and in other places, to correct the grievance.

Mr. Mellish said a few words in vindication of Mr. Mainwaring, who had, in conformity with his duty, referred this matter to the magistrates—The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table. EXPORTATION OF COTTON.
The house resolved itself into a committee of ways and means, Mr. Wharton in the chair.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerproposed to lay the same duty on the exportation from this country of cotton wool, the produce of British colonies, as now existed on the exportation from this country of cotton wool, the produce of any other part of the world. His object in proposing this was, not for the purpose of raising a revenue, but to effect a prohibition in the only way it could be effected. He had, therefore, calculated the duty so as to be just under the amount of the insurance which merchants would pay for the risk, if the article were prohibited. He therefore moved, 'That towards raising the supply there be laid on every pound of Cotton Wool exported from this country, being the produce of British colonies, the duty of ninepence'—The article of salt was in great demand in the north of Europe, where it could not be dispensed with. By the measures of the enemy the exportation from this country would be increased, rather than obstructed, for those measures empowered the country by the law of retaliation, to prevent the continent from getting salt any where but from G. Britain. He therefore moved, 'That towards raising
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the supply, there be laid on the exportation of all salt to the continent of Europe, a duty of 9d. per bushel; and on the exportation of all salt to distant parts in the world (with the exception of British colonies) a duty of 3d a bushel.'—A conversation ensued, in which Mr. Ponsonby and lord H. Petty disputed the expediency of these propositions. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Huskisson maintained the expediency of them. On the latter proposition Mr. Davenport and gen. Gascoyne recommended caution and deliberation. Mr. Baring was apprehensive that these duties on salt would act as protecting duties on the salt of American manufacture, and that when we had once lost the market for that article, we should be unable to regain it.—In answer to a question from lord H. Petty, the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated, that he meant the duty also to apply to the exportation of salt from the Bahamas to America.—The Resolutions sere then agreed to.

ORDERS IN COUNCIL BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated, that in consequence of an amendment which he intended to introduce into the Orders in Council bill, he should propose that the bill should that night go through a committee, pro forma; that the report should be received on Monday, and that on Tuesday a recommitment should take place, when the bill might be discussed.
Mr. Ponsonbyexpressed his satisfaction that the right hon. gent. had changed his opinion on the subject since 3 o'clock. on that morning. His objection, however, to the principle of the bill was so strong, that he could not allow the Speaker to leave the chair without taking the sense of the house upon it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid it was not his intention to protract the discussion of this measure. He was not until this day aware, that alterations were necessary. If the right hon. gent. had a desire to take the sense of the house he might. It appeared to him, that the reason for taking the sense of the house upon the present occasion might be, that the right hon. gent. looking at the strength of the house might think, from the thinness of what were called the ministerial benches, that he was sure of triumph.
Mr. Ponsonbyexplained, and denied any such motive.
Mr. H. Martinthought the measure was one of such paramount delinquency, that every opportunity should be taken to ex-

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pose its injustice. He was surprised at the insinuation thrown out by the right hon. the chancellor of the Exchequer against his right hon. friend, who he knew was in capable of the motive attributed to him. He was satisfied the right hon. gent. could marshal his troops with much more celerity than could be effected on his side the house.—A division then took place, when there appeared,

For the postponement

118

Against it,

32

Majority

—86

When strangers were re-admitted, we found the chancellor of the Exchequer on his legs, assuring the right hon. gent. (Mr. Ponsonby) that the division had convinced him, that he was mistaken in the insinuation he had previously made, with respect to any wish of taking an unfair advantage.