Sitting of 25 March 1807

MINUTES.
Lord G. Cavendishreported from the Lanark committee, that the sitting member, sir Charles Ross, was duly elected; and that the petition was not frivolous nor vexatious.—Mr. Long moved, that a new writ should be issued for a member for the borough of Plympton, in the room of lord Castlereagh, who had accepted the office of one of his majesty's principal secretaries of state; and also, for the borough of Newton, in the room of Mr. Canning, who had accepted the office of one of the principal secretaries of state. Ordered.—Lord Howick adverted to the promise which he had given of an explanation with respect to the change of administration. To-morrow there would be a motion for an adjournment for some days, and he was unwilling that the house should separate without the explanation being given. He therefore gave notice that he would give that explanation the next day.—Sir S. Romilly, pursuant to notice, moved for leave to bring in a bill to render the Freehold Estates of traders liable to the Bankrupt laws dying indebted assets for the payment of their simple contract debts. As there seemed a general concurrence that a bill of this nature would be unobjectionable, he need not enter upon the grounds of the motion. He was sorry that the other bill bad been lost; but since he could not do all the good he wished, he most at least endeavour to do all the good he could. The motion was then put and carried.

IRISH BUDGET.
—The house resolved itself into a committee of Ways and Means.
Sir John Newportconscious how little claim he had to occupy the attention of the house at any time, but much less at the present, said he should endeavour to make his statements as briefly as possible; nor should he have to trouble the committee on the subject, if it had not been for the circumstance of his having so great a share in negociating the Loan last Monday for Ireland. The hon. baronet then briefly stated the different items of the Supplies for Ireland, composed of its separate charges, and its two-seven-teenth parts of the joint charge of the empire, which made the whole charge amount to £9,561,218. Part of the loan for Ireland had been contracted for with the English
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Loan, the remainder he wished to have separately contracted for, because he was anxious that it should be made payable at the Bank of Ireland, for the purpose of obviating the inconveniences that were felt from the Irish government, they being obliged to draw upon this country for the money. The terms, however, which had been offered by the gentlemen who were bidders for that loan, were such as it had not been thought right to accept. The loan was, therefore, contracted for by the gentlemen who took the English Loan, upon an advance of 1s. 9d. per cent. interest, which, he trusted, would not under these circumstances be thought material. The Ways and Means, by which he proposed to cover these Supplies, consisting of the loans, of the Revenue of Ireland, which he took at the same as last year, viz. £3,882,790; surplus of the Consolidated Fond, £500,000; one million of Treasury Bills; and £300,000 which he proposed by New Taxes and Regulations, amounted in all to £9,685,093 which left an excess of Ways and Means, over the Supply, of £123,875.

The new Taxes and Regulations were to

produce, by excess of the Duty on Li-

censed Distilleries, arising out of the Re-

gulations adopted tact year, over the

amount of the antecedent year

£120,000

Taking the Allowance of 16 per cent. from

large Distilleries

80,000

Augmentation on Duties on Horses, Carts,

and Jaunting Cars

40,000

Paper

5,000

Stamps

10,000

Stamps to Retailers

5,000

Excess of Duty on Hats

10,000

An Augmentation on the Duties of Cus-

toms upon Vinegar, Dye-Stuffs, and a

few other articles

10,000

Together with other Items, amounting to

20,000

—

Making altogether

£300,000

Though the Sugar Duty imposed last session had failed to produce, the other duties had amply supplied the deficiency. The hon. bart. here enumerated the proportion in which each duty had exceeded in produce the amount calculated. Of the arrears and balances due of dead or removed collectors, £17,600 had been recovered within the last year; but this sum was considerably less than would be recovered in future years, if the measures should be persevered in for two or three years. The sum of the arrears appeared greater this year than last year, in consequence of an arrear that had accrued in the hands of the Collector of Maryborough; before he had been himself in office to the amount of £20,000, orders had been issued

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to the Board of Excise, to reduce the balances in the hands of Collectors under £100. From this statement, he trusted, it would be manifest to the committee, that the Irish government had not abused the confidence that had been placed in it. They had a vote of credit for £400,000, and they had issued but £76,000. Measures had been taken for the reduction of 38 offices in the customs, and for carrying into effect the suggestions of the Committee of Inquiry. The trade of Ireland had improved in the last year, though there appeared a diminution in its exports.

The value of the Imports for 1805, was

£5,982,000

Ditto for 1806

5,605,000

—

Being a decrease of

377,000

—

The Exports for 1805

8,436,933

Ditto for 1806

9,314,800

—

Being an increase of

£877,867

Which, added to the decrease in the Imports, made the improvement in the Trade of Ireland within the last year considerably above a million. The Trade to America had increased one third. The shipping of Ireland had increased in number 1–6, in tonnage 1–9, in seamen 1–3; the British shipping trading with Ireland had also increased 1–12, whilst the foreign shipping bad decreased 1–10, a circumstance which shewed, that the advantage of the whole increase of the trade remained within the empire. The Exchange had also fallen to 9½ per cent. a rate much lower than had been known for many years. With those proofs of the growing prosperity of that country he should conclude his statement, The hon. bart. then moved his resolutions, which were agreed to.

AFFAIRS OF INDIA.
Sir Philip Franciswished to call the attention of the house to a subject of the greatest importance, and for that purpose rose to ask some questions of the president of the board of controul, or of the person who had lately filled that situation. On the subject to which he alluded, he could speak, perhaps, with more knowledge than any Who had heard him. It related to the state of India. He was not so vain nor so ill instructed by experience, as to imagine that any thing he could say would make any very strong impression on the house, or rouse them to give a more than ordinary attention to the subject which it was his object to press upon
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their most serious consideration. But though experience had almost deprived him of hope on this point, yet there were some duties that survived even hope, and this was one of them. The questions which he was about to ask, were merely with a view to procure information, and it would depend on the answers, whether he should think it necessary to render them the grounds of any subsequent motion. The first question, then, was, why the accounts on which the East India Budget must be founded, were not as yet on the table, for the house must be aware that it was now three years since the last view of the state of India Finances had been given on full and authentic documents. This was a point of great importance, and worthy of the serious attention of the house. But this was not what he had particularly in view at this time, and the material object of his rising, was to obtain information on a subject which ought to be before the house. The first part related to the transaction at Vellore; a transaction, melancholy and disastrous in its immediate effects, and to the last degree dangerous, with a view to its ultimate consequences. Whether, therefore, we looked back upon the past, or forward to the future, it was essentially necessary, that on this point the house should be in possession of some authentic information, and he hoped that ministers, whoever they were, would not withhold that information. Addressing himself, then, to the right hon. gent., who, it was understood, had just retired from the office of president of the Board of Controul, he wished to know from him, whether he had received official information from India on this point, or any information upon the correctness of which he could depend? Whether the house would give him credit or not, he would assure them that this transaction was one of the most dangerous kind with regard to its consequences, and he begged of the house not to shut their eyes to it, because the danger was distant in point of local situation. But this was not all; he believed that other advices had been received Within a few days past, of greater consequence than the information relative to the affair at Vellore. He alluded to the situation of the Carnatic, which had filled the government of Madras with the utmost alarm. So great, indeed, was this alarm, that an application had been made by the Madras government to general Maitland, governor of Ceylon, for an amount of force consisting of all the European troops in that settlement. He

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had no official information of this; but he had heard it from what he considered as very good private authority. If, then, any information of this sort had come to the India House, he hoped the proper persons would consider it as their duty to lay it before the house. In the mean time he wished to know, whether, in point of fact, official or authentic information of this nature had been received. He assured the house that the information to which he referred went to the very existence of our power in India. He had long wished to give up all concern with the affairs of India, on account of the inadequate effects which he had found to result from his earnest and frequent appeals to the house on that subject. But this, however, was not solely an Indian subject, it was one materially connected with the prosperity and perhaps the existence of this country. In the Same Manner, whatever materially affected Ireland was not only an Irish but a British subject, as the interest of both were, in a great measure, identified.—
Mr. Huskissonspoke to order. He apprehended that it was irregular to go into a long statement when a member rose merely to ask a question.
The Speakeragreed that it was irregular.
Sir P. Francishad no other intention than merely to justify his asking those questions, and, as he had done this, he would trespass on the attention of the house no further.
Mr. Tierneyrose to give such answers as he could to the questions of his hon. friend. To the question, why no account relative to the finances of India had been laid before the house, the answer was that none could be laid, as they had not as yet arrived. One year's accounts might, indeed, have been made out, and it was his intention to have brought forward these, as might be recollected from the notice he had given. But when he found that he was immediately to have a Successor, and that, in fact, for some days past, he only held the office as a locum tenens, he thought that it would be more proper, under all the circumstances, not to take the affair out of the hands of others. He trusted it would not be thought that there was any neglect on his part. There were none arrived but the accounts to which he had adverted. and these he supposed were not those to which his hon. friend had referred in his question As to the question respecting the transaction at Vellore, the East India board was in possession of authentic documents relative to that point, which would enable them to form a complete judgment upon the
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whole affair. As to the third question, relative to the situation of the Carnatic, he could assure his hon. friend, that his private information was wrong. No application had been made for troops to general Maitland by the Madras government. There was one general, indeed, who finding himself in difficult circumstances had applied to the governor of Ceylon for some troops, but no regular advices on this subject had arrived from India. General Maitland, with that attention to his duty, and to the interests of his country, for which he was distinguished, had taken the first opportunity of sending the earliest notice of the state of India, but no regular advices had come from India itself. As to the affair at Vellore, if a motion was made for laying any information on that point before the house, the board of controul would, of course, judge how far it would be prudent to comply.
[MOTION RESPECTING THE OFFICE OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER, &C——Mr. Henry Martinrose, pursuant to notice, to submit his motion to the house; and he had to regret that this task had not fallen into abler hands. He felt that he had little claim to the consideration of the house, and trusted that some gentleman of greater talents would come forward to support the question which he looked upon it as his duty to bring under the consideration of the house. But before he should enter into the grounds of his motion, or of the propriety of bringing it forward, he wished to clear away every suspicion that he was actuated by any motives of hostility towards the right hon. and learned gent. (Mr. Perceval) who was the object of it. With that gentleman he had the pleasure and the honour of being long acquainted, and he entertained the highest respect for his abilities and character. Much as he was attached to the honourable persons who composed his majesty's late administration, he could assure the house, that in bringing forward this motion, he was actuated by no party motive. He wished also to shew, that in doing this, he was not doing any thing that would trench upon the prerogative of the crown. From the year 1660 to the present time, there appeared but two instances in which the office of chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, to which his motion particularly applied, had been granted for life. The result of the inquiry, which he had been able to make upon so short a notice was, that it had not in any other instance been granted for life within that period of 147 years. This would satisfy the

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house that his motion for an address, that his majesty would be graciously pleased to grant this place according to the usual practice, would not interfere with his royal prerogative. The first instance in which it had been granted for life, was in 1717, when it had been granted to lord Lechmere who had for a long time filled the office of attorney general. He should establish the difference between the cases. In that instance, the person had been raised to the peerage when all the avenues to his profession were shut against him, and it was thought right to give him some provision for life in reward of his services. The next instance was in 1782, when the place of chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster had been granted for life to lord Ashburton. He was anxious to state all that he had been able to find on the subject. Gentlemen must not suppose him ignorant of the cases that bore upon his motion. But under what circumstances had that noble lord received this office? He had filled the office of solicitor general; had been long at the head of his profession; and had distinguished himself in that house as much as the learned gent. opposite, but in a far different manner. He had distinguished himself in the support of the rights of the people, and of the authority of parliament, in which way he had never heard of the learned gent. having distinguished himself. That noble lord having got a peerage, when all the law offices were full, it had been thought right by the persons with whom he had acted in parliament, to give him the chancellorship of the Duchy of Lancaster for life. But it had not been granted to him to induce him to accept another office of honour and emolument. It was granted for services already performed. These were all the cases that he could find of such a grant; and, therefore, the motion for an address to his majesty, to make the grant in the usual manner, could not interfere with the prerogative; and there was a precedent of an address, the same in substance, though not in form, with that which he proposed to move. That address had been voted on the 23d of December 1783, on the occasion of a rumour that it was in his majesty's contemplation to grant this place for life, or for any other term than during pleasure, up to a particular period. He was aware of the difference between that resolution and the motion he intended to make, but at that time a report was expected from the committee of offices and acounts, which might recommend the aboii-
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tion or modification of the office. He was not, however, so wedded to the words of his motion, as not to consent to modify it in any manner that the house might think proper. He did not know whether the committee at present inquiring into what offices ought to be abolished or regulated, might not be of the same opinion as Mr. Burke, that this office ought to be altogether abolished. But he did think that it would become a question in that committee, how far the grant of places for life was a grievance. For his part he looked upon such grants as equally grievances with the grants in reversion, and was of opinion, that no person should grant places except during his own life, unless for distinguished services. In such cases, he would admit the propriety of grants for life, as a remuneration for the services performed. But the hon. and learned gent. was to have another situation, which was in itself a place of great honour and emolument, and therefore could have no claim to the grant for life of such an office as that of the chancellorship of the duchy of Lancaster. Were the gentlemen who were to become his majesty's ministers to be tempted by such means to accept offices, which were generally objects of honourable ambition? He did not mean to confine his motion to the particular case, but rested it upon general principles, to extend to all such offices pending the existence of that committee, from whose labours he was convinced the house and the public service would derive so much benefit. His motion would not, at all events, be liable to the objection made to a resolution moved the preceding day by the chairman of the committee, and recommended by the committee, that it was an innovation, because in the course Of 147 years, there appeared but two instances in which the place had been granted for life. An address had also been voted of a similar nature on a former occasion, with which his majesty had complied, and had been graciously pleased to reply that he would not grant the office for life, and he had never since so granted it. It might be said, that he had taken the house by surprize. It ill became him to speak of himself, but every man who knew him, must know that he was incapable of taking the house by surprise. The motion had arisen out Of the discussion the preceding day, and the delay of a few hours might have rendered it nugatory. It might also be asked, why he had not brought forward the motion under the late administration? To this he should answer, that they

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were incapable of any such proceeding, because they had shewn no disposition to grasp at every thing they could secure, because they had shewn the disinterested principles upon which they acted, by abstaining from granting any places in reversion. The hon. and learned gent. concluded by moving, "That an humble address be presented to his majesty, that he would be graciously pleased not to grant the office of chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, or any other office not usually granted for life, for any other term than during pleasure."
The Hon. J. W. Wardrose to second the motion, to which he gave his full and cordial approbation. The motion for the address to his majesty was recommended to the house by every principle of reason, and all the authority of precedent. The precedents shewed incontestibly that the motion would not interfere with the royal prerogative, and the reason of the thing was so obvious, as not to require illustration. Every grant of a place for life had a direct tendency to impair the dignity of the crown. Any other measure might be condemned upon certain particular grounds, but this was a proceeding which was to be resisted upon every consideration of reason, policy, and interest. The practice, if permitted, would impair the dignity and means of the crown. It would abridge the exercise of the power of punishing weak, wicked, or corrupt ministers, by depriving them of their offices, and take away from the crown the power of bestowing those offices on wise and virtuous ministers; it would remove all locus penitentiœ from the sovereign, by tying up his hands with respect to offices which he might once have conferred on unworthy objects, and be an injury to the rights and interests of the people. Unavailing would be the complaint of the people under their sufferings; it would not be in the power of the crown to revoke such grants, after they had been once made. Grants of this description appeared to him unconstitutional under all circumstances. They had the effect, of raising up a race of men to live upon the wealth of the public, and to make them alike independent of the sovereign, who might promote them, and of the people, by whom the means were supplied for their support. As the grant of places for life therefore had such a direct tendency to deprive the crown of the power of punishing weak or wicked, and of rewarding its meritorious servants, the motion for the address should have his warmest support.
Mr. Percevalhad felt so anxious to be
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present at the discussion of this question, that he had delayed accepting the office which, but for the notice given by the honourable gentleman the preceding night, he should, ere this, have held. He thought it his duty by his presence to take care that if the house thought fit to address his majesty, it should be on accurate statements, and that no uncertain rumours should usurp the place of facts. He could not for a moment suppose, whatever might be the motives of his hon. and learned friend, that the present motion proceeded from any personal ill-will towards himself, because, in the whole of his intercourse with his learned friend, he was not conscious of a single circumstance from, which such ill-will could arise. It was unquestionably true, that he had received an offer from his majesty of the chancellorship of the exchequer, accompanied with a grant of the chancellorship of the duchy of Lancaster for life; and that, but for his learned friend's notice, he should at that moment have been in possession of both those situations; his learned friend, therefore, was not chargeable with surprise in bringing forward his motion at so short a notice, as otherwise the season of it would have gone by. He was not in the house the preceding evening; but understanding that such a notice had been given, instead of approaching his sovereign for the purpose of receiving his appointment to office, he had approached him with a request that the appointment might not take place on that day, that he might have an opportunity of addressing the house on the subject; and still more, that his majesty might not be fettered, in consequence of any advice that the house might think proper to offer him. This request was accompanied with an assurance, as his majesty had been pleased to think that he could be an useful servant, that, whatever might be the pleasure of his majesty in consequence of any address from the house of commons, although it should deprive him of the duchy of Lancaster, formerly offered, it would not in the slightest degree abate his wish to serve his majesty. Unquestionably, though in the first instance lie should not have felt justified in neglecting his duty to his family by quitting a lucrative profession without the prospect of something like compensation, yet when he found his majesty thought his services might be advantageous to the interest of the country, and when he saw the crisis in which that country was placed, he felt it no longer to be a matter of option with him, but that whatever might be the consequences

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to himself, his sovereign should command the utmost exertion of his humble abilities. With respect to the two precedents alluded to by his learned friend, he would not compare himself with the object of either, but that lord Ashburton should be allowed, without notice, to accept for life the chancellorship of the duchy of Lancaster, impressed on him the belief that no parliamentary objection existed against such an appointment. Lord Ashburton was taken out of the profession of the law by an administration professedly of pure Whig principles, that of lord Rockingham; and the grant to him of the duchy of Lancaster was afterwards confirmed to him under the administration of a near relative of the noble lord opposite (the marquis of Lansdowne). Lord Ashburton was a man with whom it would Certainly be presumptuous for him to compare himself, but his majesty might think proper at different times to reward services done to different branches of the constitution. The most distinguished service of that learned lord was the famous resolution proposed by him in the house of commons, "that the influence of the crown had increased, was increasing, and ought to be diminished." Such a person having received that appointment, under such an administration, had led him to think that the present motion would not have been seconded or supported by the representatives of the Whig principles in that house, and that it would not have received the countenance of an administration whose first act had been, not merely to advise the king to any due exercise of his prerogative, but to introduce into parliament a measure, by which a noble lord was enabled to hold two situations constitutionally incompatible with each other. The arguments of the hon. gentlemen opposite were applicable against every grant of an office for life, as well as his own; they were applicable to that exception from the practice so loudly boasted by the late administration, of withholding reversionary grants, in which the chancellor, to reward the private meritorious services of an individual, had procured for him the reversion for life of a lucrative situation. Surely, if the clerk of a barrister was not an improper person on whom to confer such a grant, it seemed extraordinary that he (Mr. Perceval) should be considered so. Although he acquitted his learned friend of any improper intentions, he should leave it to the house to consider, whether this motion arose from any large and general view of the subject, or whether
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it was not directed solely against him; he did not mean to say personally, but from his being supposed to have facilitated the arrangements for a new administration. It would therefore be a serious subject for the consideration of the house, whether in present state and crisis of the country, and when all the circumstances connected with the new arrangement were before them, when they recollected that the object of forming a new administration was to preserve the establishments of the country, and perhaps the religion of it, whether they would be disposed to throw any difficulties in the way of his majesty in forming a new administration, when he conceived that in so doing he was only labouring to preserve the constitution of the country. Having said thus much, he thought that he ought to leave the subject to the discretion and judgment of the house, and that as it particularly related to himself he should withdraw, after having put the house in possession of his sentiments; but before he withdrew, he should repeat, that whatever might be their determination on the subject of the duchy of Lancater, and whatever sacrifices he might be called upon to make, no services that he could be called upon to render to his majesty should in the present situation of affairs be withheld.—Mr. Perceval then made his bow, and left the house.
Mr. Plumerrose merely to vindicate himself from the charge that, was yesterday brought against him, of making a statement in that house on the mere authority of an idle rumour. It appeared now, from what had fallen from the right hon. and learned gent. that his statement had been perfectly correct, and that if it had not been for the notice taken of it last night in the house, the business would have gone too far to remedy it, and the right hon. gent. would have now been in the possession of the two, places. He did not pretend to deny the merit of the right hon. gent., or mean any thing personal against him, but he had a great objection to the principle of giving a great place for life, merely as an inducement to a person to accept of an office in the service of the country, the emoluments of which had hitherto been considered a sufficient compensation.
Lord Henry Pettysaid, that if he had not been so personally alluded to by the right hon. and learned gent. he did not think he should have troubled the house with any observations upon the present question. He was ready to join perfectly with the hon.

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gent. who had brought forward this motion, in disclaiming any thing like personal hostility or personal reflection upon the right hon. and learned gent. who was the most immediately interested in the present motion; and he had no hesitation in stating, that if the salary annexed to the situation of chancellor of the exchequer was not sufficient (and he believed it was not), he should have no objection to granting such an augmentation to it, as would afford a reasonable and proper compensation for the services which might be expected from the right hon. gent. But although he certainly did object to a place for life being given to that gentleman, in order to induce him to accept the situation; yet as he had not before said a word upon the subject, he did not know how the right hon. gent. had discovered that he so warmly supported the motion. He thought it was also somewhat strange that he should be charged with acting inconsistently, or in a manner disrespectful to the memory of his near relation, (the marquis of Lansdown) if he was not to be bound completely by those precedents of the year 1762, or 1783. He thought there was a great difference between the cases cited and the present; but if there was not, he should not think it quite fair to charge him with inconsistency, if he should hold a different opinion. That relation, so near and dear to him, (the marquis of Lansdown, his father) had abundant claims upon his love and respect, without adverting to the case of lord Ashburton. But, however sincerely he was bound to respect his opinions and his memory, there were no ties of relationship, or private affection and respect, which could prevent him in that house from expressing his own opinion on any subject that came before them for discussion. The case of lord Lechmere he conceived to be quite distinct and separate from the present: as to the case of lord Ashburton, it must be recollected that the place of the duchy of Lancaster was not given him as an inducement to take another place, but as a means of supporting the dignity of the peerage to which he had been raised, not only on account of his great merits, but for the service and assistance he could render as a law lord. Lord Ashburton was then looked up to by every body as the fittest successor to lord Mansfield as Chief Justice of the King's Bench, which was the highest object of legal ambition. His majesty had been advised to confer the peerage upon him, and that he should not want suitable means of supporting its dignity
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until the Chief Justiceship should be vacant, this place was conferred upon him. This was a case, which, he conceived, was, totally different from the present. If the salary of the chancellor of the exchequer were not sufficient, it might be recollected, that there Were a great number of other offices which might be given as a reward for services, when those services should have been actually performed; but he objected to the giving away the means of rewarding great services, merely to induce persons to become members of an administration. He considered that it was a most serious and unconstitutional attack on the most important prerogatives of the crown, to deprive it of all power and means of rewarding great public services, by taking the best places and gifts that it was in the power of the crown to bestow, before any of those services had been performed. He thought that the crown ought not to have been advised to limit its powers and prerogatives in this manner. Upon the subject of the alienation of crown lands, it had been always observed, that in whatever proportion the crown gave away to individuals its possessions and its right, in that proportion it became weaker, and it was the same with respect to lucrative offices. If they were all given away directly or in reversion to one set of Ministers, the crown left itself without that patronage and power of rewarding great Services, which it ought to possess. A recent and very remarkable case had occurred Some years ago in corroboration of this opinion. On an arrangement that Was then proposed, this very place was offered to lord Sidmouth, who had rendered considerable service during his long and meritorious discharge of his duties as Speaker. Lord Sidmouth declined it, and said he could not bring himself to be the instrument of alienating from the crown the means of rewarding greater public services than he had as yet been able to perform. It was not as a testimony in favour of lord Sidmouth that he mentioned this, for the noble lord required no such testimony of his disinterested conduct; but he mentioned it merely for the information of those members who were not previously acquainted with the circumstance. The principle upon which lord Sidmouth refused it applied with much greater strength to the present case; besides, it was known, that there was a committee of the house now constituted, for the express purpose of considering what useless and sinecure offices might be abolished; and as it was possible that the com

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mittee might consider this to be among the number, he thought that it should not be thus disposed of, in a manner contrary to all usage, before the opinion of the committee was pronounced upon it.
Mr. Sturges Bournecould not help expressing his surprise at the manner in which this motion was supported, and his astonishment at the hon. and learned quarter whence it originated. When he recollected that the hon. and learned gent. who brought forward the motion was acquainted with the talents, integrity, and disinterestedness of his right hon. friend—(Here there was a continued cry of hear! hear! mixed with laughter)—A more honourable, a more liberal, a more independent, and a more disinterested character never existed—(hear! hear!)—He would go farther, and say, that if his right hon. and learned friend accepted of both places, he would make a large sacrifice by abandoning his professional pursuits in return. He should like to know, then, whence arose the surprise of hon. gentlemen opposite, when the word disinterestedness was mentioned? It could be from personal motives only. He was surprised that the noble lord who had lately left his majesty's councils, should throw any embarrassment in the way of the new administration, when that embarrassment tended to impede the usual exercise of the prerogative of the crown. The value of the chancellorship of the duchy of Lancaster did not exceed 2000 l. per annum; and was this too large an equivalent for the fruits of his right hon. friend's professional exertions? He further contended, that the grant of the place in question for life was an usual grant (hear! hear! from the opposition). Well, if it was not an usual grant, he was at least warranted in saying, that it was not an unprecedented one. He maintained that there was no difference between the present case and that of lord Ashburton, although it had been attempted to set up some kind of distinction. There had much been said during a late debate, as to the economy of the late administration with respect to the grant of reversions; he had since inquired into it, and had found, that three reversions only fell within the power of the late administration, and that of those three they had already granted two [here several members of the late administration distinctly said, "state them, state them."] Perhaps, upon recollection, he was not quite warranted in the conclusion he had drawn; one of the two he had alluded to was, he believed, upon
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consideration, not the grant of a reversion. He had also understood from the noble lord (H. Petty) that lord Ashburton was to keep the place in question for life, besides that of Chief Justice of the Court of the King's Bench (a general cry of no! no!); perhaps he was mistaken, he might have misunderstood the noble lord; but if he did not misunderstand him in another point, he could not abstain from expressing his surprise as to that point. The noble lord had talked of the committee of finance, as entitled to inquire into the state and utility of the office now in question. The noble lord ought to have known, that that office belonged to his majesty's privy purse, and therefore could not possibly come under the cognizance of that committee. Before he sat down he could not help expressing his surprize, that the noble lord (Howick) had fixed upon to-morrow for a certain important explanation, when that noble lord must have been aware, that the leading persons most interested in the discussion, and who had their story to tell, must by that time have vacated their seats by accepting the new appointments.
Mr. Sharpesaid, that if he were to judge from the specimen just given to the house, he should not expect that the new administration would be good at making convincing speeches. He could not help seriously expressing his surprise at the assertion of the hon gent. who spoke last, that there was no difference between the present case and that of lord Ashburton. It was painful to him to enter into any personal comparison, bat he hoped the house would acquit him of any invidious motive. Mr. Dunning was indisputably at the head of his profession. He was shut out from the great emoluments of such a situation, by being advanced to the upper house. As to the right hon. gent. in question; the least he could say, was that that right hon. gent. certainly was not at the head of his profession. He (Mr. Sharpe) had repeatedly in the course of not a very short life, discharged the duties of a juror, and yet it had been his great misfortune never once to have had his understanding enlightened by the professional exertions of the right hon. gent. He would go farther, for the truth was, that the abilities of the right hon. gent. were not known until he had got into an official situation. It might be asked, why did he enter into this unpleasant comparison? because it was of importance to that house and to the country, to know what was the real extent of the pro

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fessional sacrifices made by the right hon. gent. He had the honour to be a member of the finance committee above stairs so often alluded to; and when he saw that one of the first steps of the new administration was to grasp at so considerable a sinecure at the same time that he saw them so far descent as to endeavour to justify themselves by recrimination, it would make him more cautious, and encourage him to prosecute his labours with greater diligence, in order that the report might be made before that premature extinction which he foresaw was intended for the present parliament. The hon. gent. concluded with expressing his intire concurrence in the motion.
Mr. Montague roseto contradict, substantially and directly, the statement made by the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, as far as that statement related to the professional eminence of his right hon. friend. The hon. mover knew well that eminence; and he contended that his right hon. friend must lose considerably by his present appointment, that is, he would give up more than he would receive. He contended, upon the word of a gentleman, that such was the fact. His right hon. friend had made even a greater sacrifice; he had given up the post of attorney general, to which he had an undisputed claim. Was he to receive no equivalent for the loss of eight or ten thousand pounds a year? Gentlemen might laugh, but he was anxious to convince fair men only; he was anxious that his arguments should weigh with fair men only, and he was free to say that gentlemen on the opposite side were not fair, nor disposed to be so (a general cry of order! order!)
Lord Howickspoke to order. It was extremely irregular to impute unfairness to any member.
Mr. Montaguein continuation, said, that he was willing to make every apology; he begged pardon of the house for any temporary inadvertence; he could assure them that it was not intentional. He begged of the house to consider the case of his right hon. friend, obliged to turn his back on his profession, with a numerous family and absolute distress before him, if he was not to be recompensed: besides that, it would be peculiarly distressing, as affecting the arrangements making by his majesty, arrangements rendered necessary by the dereliction of those very men (here several gentlemen rose to order!)
The Speaker said, that as the house had already admitted statements not immediately
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connected with the question now before it, it was hard for him, during the remainder of the debate, precisely to determine the exact limits of order. The house had suffered the debate to take a turn, which it was not for him to change; as to any expressions of a disorderly nature, he should be prepared to detect and resist them.
Lord Howickdid not think the hon gent. when he was interrupted actually out of order, but he much feared, that the hon. member, had he not been then interrupted, was hurrying into that which would have called for serious animadversion.
Mr. Montaguein continuation, said, that if a member did not intend to be disorderly, whatever expressions might have fallen from him, that member was not to be put down by clamour. He addressed himself to the independent members of that house, and to their attention did he particularly address himself (another cry of order, order! chair, chair!).
The Speakerwished the honourable member to recollect, that in the language of that house no such distinction between its members was recognised.
Mr. Montaguein continuation, again apologised, stating, that the distinction he meant was between those seeking for places and pensions, and those who were not candidates for either. He himself was one of the latter, for he never had nor never would solicit a place, though he had been so long in habits of the strictest intimacy with a great and leading statesman. He should conclude with stating, that had it not been for the unseasonable interruptions he had met with, he should not have been upon his legs so long.
Mr. Henry Thorntonsaid he could not give his vote on this occasion without requesting to be indulged in a few words to qualify it. No man entertained a higher opinion of the right honourable gentleman, who was the subject of the present debate, than he did; and therefore, in supporting the present question, he wished to be considered more as giving a declaratory vote upon general principles, than as intending any opposition to the arrangement made; he voted merely upon a dry abstract principle, and not at all from party motives. It was his opinion that places usually held under the crown during pleasure ought not to be granted for life. Whether, as a member of the Committee of Finance, and having breathed so long the air of that committee, he came down to the house now to give his vote with

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greater strictness than usual, he would not pretend to determine; but his vote was certainly the result of his conviction upon the subject.
Mr. Johnstonesaid, he should not have risen to trouble the house, but for the purpose of making an observation, in answer to some allusions made to him by an honourable member who spoke early in the debate (Mr. Plumer), in respect to what he had said last night. The honourable member, it was true, had last night stated, what turned out to be founded in fact, as proved by the declaration of a right honourable gentleman this evening (Mr. Perceval), but When he did state the circumstance, he avowed no other ground than rumour, unsupported by any authentic reference. Adverting to the comparisons which had been made by gentlemen on the other side of the house, between the case now under consideration, and those of lord Ashburton and lord Lechmere, he thought there was very little difference. But he could not refrain from some observations upon the conduct of those honourable gentlemen themselves, when they were taking credit for so much purity and disinterestedness. He would ask, how they could reconcile with those assumptions, the indecency of pressing upon that house on their first accession to office, and at nine o'clock at night, two successive stages of a bill for enabling the noble lord at the head of the late administration (lord Grenville) to hold as a sinecure the office of Auditor of the Exchequer, with large emoluments annexed, and the duties of which were to be done by another; and this at the same time that another noble lord at the head of the family enjoyed the Tellership of the Exchequer with emoluments almost incalculable? How could they reconcile with this boasted purity the extraordinary increase made in the salary of First Lord of the Admiralty, lately enjoyed by another branch of that noble family, and this not avowed to parliament in an open manly way, but effected by a secret fund? How could that right honourable gentleman reconcile to his purity the calling on the house for 3000 l. for the expences of further continuing the commission of naval enquiry, and not say a word about his own salary? With respect to the Committee of Finance, for which those honourable gentlemen took so much credit to themselves, so far from their having the merit to originate the measure, it was rather forced upon them by the patriotism of his honourable friend op
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posite to him (Mr. Biddulph); but when the late ministers found the measure was too popular to be resisted, the noble lord (Petty) adopted it, and claimed that as his own, which he had no right to arrogate. The honourable gentlemen boasted much of their economical arrangements; but what had they done for the country in effect? They had indeed appointed commissioners of accounts without number; but what had these effected? The West India Commissioners, who had been so long appointed, at large salaries, had not even yet sailed upon their mission; and as to the army accounts, nothing appeared to have been effected there. Such had been the conduct of these patrons of reform! In short, he apprehended that whenever those honourable gentlemen should come to state what they really had done, their explanation would be something like what occurred between general Stanhope and general Walpole upon a former occasion, namely, nothing better than mutual reproach and Mutual recrimination. Those men were the fathers of the house of commons at that day, and the house, in pity to their nakedness, turned their backs upon them, and so he hoped they would do upon these honourable gentlemen.
Mr. Sheridansaid, that it was not the first time he had observed in the honourable gentleman who had just sat down an eagerness to attack the late administration and its friends, though certainly the present, like every former attempt, evinced rather an avidity to attack than a power to be offensive, He was glad, however, to see in the present attack something like a philosophical neutrality, and that as the late administration had had the misfortune of the honourable gentleman's opposition, so the present would be now likely to come in for its due share. The honourable gentleman had said a great deal about independence, and had congratulated himself in an angry tone upon his having no place under any government. He (Mr. Sheridan) could only say, that he was no divulger of private secrets; but he might make some allusion to a certain public message, which he had been deputed to deliver to a right honourable friend, now no more (Mr. Fox) at the formation of the late administration. He was sure the honourable gentleman perfectly understood him (a general laugh). He was rather inclined to believe, from the nature of that message, that the honourable gentleman, notwithstanding his present acrimony, might then have been completely dulcified

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towards that terrible administration he had been so much of late in the habit of condemning; aye, and disinterestedly condemning too; or disinterestedly, if such pronunciation better suited the taste of the honourable gentleman, whether classical or vulgar. It was unnecessary to explain more. He believed the honourable gentleman perfectly understood him.—The honourable gentleman had arraigned the late ministry for having abandoned their public professions. Having made such a charge, the onus of the proof lay with the honourable gentleman; and he (Mr. Sheridan) defied him to produce any instance in which the late ministers had for a moment shrunk from the principles which they had professed, not merely on their coming into power, but during the continuance of that power. They were denied the credit of the committee of finance. Did they not support it, and encourage it to the utmost of their power? What had been the principle of that committee? Economy; and what had been the avowed principle of the late ministers? Economy. Was he called on for an instance? He would instance the reduction of the staff; he would instance the barrack department; he would instance the reduction of the department of the commissariat. He would ask the honourable gentleman, if his noble friend near him (lord H. Petty) did not pledge himself at the outset of his administration, to the adoption of every practicable plan of reform and retrenchment in the public expenditure, and if he had not followed up that pledge to the last moment of his official authority? the honourable gentleman wished to deprive his noble friend of all claim to the merit of originating the committee of finance, and to attribute the whole to another honourable gentleman (Mr. Biddulph) from whose merit it was by no means his wish to detract; but he would say, that his noble friend, in adopting that, measure with a view of giving it greater extension, by no means wished to deprive the honourable gentleman, who first proposed it, of the credit of originality; but surely his noble friend was entitled to the praise of having promptly adopted the suggestion for the advantage of the public, indifferent from whom it might proceed. Would that honourable gentleman, who was himself a member of that committee. [Here lord Henry Petty suggested to Mr. Sheridan, that the honourable member (Mr. Johnstone) was not a member of that committee; Mr. Sheridan answered loudly, "I am very glad of it,"
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which occasioned a considerable laugh]. He would ask, then, of that honourable gentleman who was not a member of the committee, and might be therefore more impartial, whether the late ministers were not upon this ground particularly entitled to the acknowledgments of the country? Did it appear that there had been any shuffling, or any ministerial balloting in the formation of that committee; was there any obtrusion of minister's friends? He appealed to the chairman himself of that committee, to the honourable gentleman (Mr. Biddulph) with whom the motion that led to the creation of that committee had originated, if such practices had been resorted to. An allusion had been made to the increase of salary in the office of first lord of the admiralty. The salary was confessed to be shamefully low. A noble lord (Melville) whose conduct since had been the subject of such general animadversion, on the same appointment, received, in addition, a considerable salary, levied by the illegal interception of the revenue of Scotland, which salary the noble lord still held though deprived of his place, in virtue of which he originally held it. If, therefore, the charges brought by the honourable gentleman were not to be better founded than those he had already adduced, he (Mr. Sheridan) wished that the honourable gentleman would secure to himself the office of charger general against the late administration and all their friends.—He desired now to pay some attention to the speech of another hon. gentleman (Mr. Montague) who had been pleased to charge gentlemen on his side of the house with deriding his arguments, because they could not answer them; the hon. gentleman might, however, have had the politeness to wait a little, and try whether they were able to answer him or not, before he made the assertion. The hon. member had saved them the necessity, by offering them no arguments to answer: and as to every thing else, he had so fully answered himself throughout his speech, that it would be superfluous to answer him any farther. Some comparisons had been made between the case now under discussion, and those of lord Ashburton and lord Lechmere; and some comparisons had also been drawn between the characters and merits of those noble lords, and the right hon. gentleman now the subject of the debate. It was not his province to go into a scrntiny upon merits, and no man more highly esteemed

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than he did the parliamentary talents of the right hon. gentleman; and therefore he thought the advice to his majesty, Of placing hint on the opposite bench, was wisely given. He could not enter into a comparison of the number of briefs, fees, and motions which fell to the professional lot of the right hon. gentleman, and which he was to abandon for his new office. But he (Mr. Sheridan), whose lot it was to Vindicate his majesty's new ministers from the indiscreet zeal of some of their friends, must beg to observe, that they must be strange friends indeed who could advise the right hon. gentleman to give up his certain professional emoluments of 8 or 10,000 l. a year, as alledged, to accept a place of 2,000 l. in the experiment to become a tolerable chancellor of the exchequer. It was a sacrifice which the house did not wish the right hon. gentleman to make, but rather that he would keep both his emoluments and his profession; and to those who gave him a contrary counsel, well might he exclaim, "Oh, save me from my friends, I can myself take care of my enemies!" with respect to the comparison made between the right hon. gentleman and lord Ashburton, the cases were totally different. That gentleman, when Mr. Dunning, was at the top of a profession, of which he was the ornament, when he was called up to the house of peers without a place; and if the duchy of Lancaster had not been assigned him, he must have had for his support a pension from the public purse. He, however, accepted the situation for life, on the condition of relinquishing it, so soon as the great object of his professional views was open, namely, the Chief Justiceship of the King's Bench; but, notwithstanding the sneers which had been cast this night upon that noble lord, in allusion to his parliamentary conduct, in bringing forward a resolution, "that the influence of the crown had "increased, was increasing, and ought to "be diminished," he thought the circumstance highly honourable to his character, and such as ought not to deprive him of the favour of his sovereign, for only wishing to curb that increasing influence of the ministers of the crown, which added nothing to the comforts, the honour, or the authority of the monarch. And he thought the crown more faithfully and honourably served by the men, such as him, who brought forward this resolution, and that they were more truly the supporters of the constitutional prerogatives of the sovereign, than the men who could advise the measure now in
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debate. It was extremely painful to him to make any comparisons that might be thought to wear an invidious aspect to the right. hon. gentleman, but he recollected that ever since he was a member of that house he was mostly in office. He had been Attorney General under Mr. Pitt, and Solicitor General under lord Sidmouth; and here he begged leave to pay his tribute of praise to the upright, pure, and honourable conduct of that noble lord, as it had been explained this night, when under the administration of Mr. Pitt, he might have had the place for life, which it was now in contemplation to confer upon the new chancellor of the exchequer, had his honourable scruples permitted him to become the instrument of limitation to the prerogative and constitutional influence of his royal master. During the short period of the learned gentleman's opposition, the air of this side of the house did not seem to agree with him, and he was now got back to the balmy and blissful atmosphere of the Treasury Bench.—The honourable member had asked, will you deprive his majesty of the learned gentleman's services in that office for which he had been thought qualified? Now really he was of opinion, that if gentlemen on the opposite side possessed any thing at all, they were swarming with chancellors of the exchequer, (a laugh.) Even a noble lord and a gallant general had lately proposed their plans of finance to the house; why not make either of them chancellors of the exchequer? Why not make the gallant general attorney-general? (a laugh.)—Among all their financiers, not one could be found to fill the office, but a gentleman who, though a very frequent speaker in the house, had never, to his knowledge, uttered one word on the subject of finance in his life.
Mr. Johnstonein explanation, stated that he neither had nor would have applied to the right honourable gentleman who had just sat down for the purpose of procuring him any appointment upon the occasion alluded to, and for two reasons, the first, that he knew, if he had applied, the right honourable gentleman was too much engaged in providing for himself and his family, to attend to any agency for others; and secondly, because if he had requested the right honourable gentleman to undertake the commission, he was pretty sure that, although he might promise, he would have been very apt to forget it. Now the fact was, upon the case referred to by the right honourable gentleman, simply no more than this. After stating to the right honourable gentleman the substance

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of some conversatiòns which he had with an illustrious person, now no more, (Mr. Fox) he did communicate to that right honourable gentleman, and authorize him to mention his readiness to accept of any office to which no salary should be attached, and in which he might be able to make himself useful. He remembered that he particularly mentioned Indian affairs, from his knowledge of which he stated to the right honourable gentleman his opinion that he should be able to render some service to his country. In offering to accept a situation in the conduct of those affairs without any emolument for his services, he hoped he was making
proposition which should not expose him to censure, or to the suspicion of any unworthy motives.
Mr. Sheridanin explanation, expressed an unwillingness to fix any imputation on the honourable gentleman. As some persons wished for emoluments, so others wished for honour or patronage. It was not for him to say, of what description the honourable gentleman's ambition was. With respect to the charge of his (Mr. Sheridan) being busy in providing for himself and his family, the fact was, that his right hon. friend, who was now unhappily no more(Mr. Fox), thought, that after a service, he hoped not unmeritorious, of twenty-seven years in parliament, some provision for life ought to be made for him. It had happened rather singularly, that his right honourable friend had intimated, that the office that had been so much spoken of that night, the chancellorship of the duchy of Lancaster, should be appropriated to that provision; but, on consulting with his colleagues, his right honourable friend found that trey had formed a determination not to grant for life this office, or any other, usually held during pleasure. On being informed of this determination, he entreated his right honourable friend by no means to press the matter, and thus he remained without a provision for life, and this office was reserved for the disposal of the new ministers.
Mr. Simeonthought the right of granting the office in question for life ought not to be much exercised. He thought it wrong, however, to adopt a general restriction with a view to a particular case. He regretted that the question should now be brought forward to prevent the formation of a new administration. He wished the late administration to have remained in place. But the new administration were better than none, and therefore he was unwilling to see its formation impeded. If the crown had the power
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of granting the office for life to lord Lechmere and lord Ashburton, it had also the power of granting it in the present case, and who had a right to interfere with the discretion of the crown in the exercise of that power?
Mr. Fullersaid, he should be always forward to support the just exercise of his majesty's prerogative; but he confessed that he must disapprove of the manner in which it was understood that this prerogative was now about to be applied, and therefore he would support this motion. For the sake of the king's own interest he would support this motion; because he did not like the idea of his majesty's giving away places for life. On the contrary, he would advise him to keep such places subject to his disposal, for those men who served him. He would recommend to the king to keep the key of the oat-chest himself, and not give it to others; for he might rely upon it, that if he did not retain the power of serving those men, they would not serve him. It would be much better for his majesty that all places for life were converted into places during pleasure than to allow any increase of the former. This he said with a view to the king's own interest; for he regarded his majesty much, for his firm attachment to the constitution. He declared, that in his opinion the names of George the Third, Nelson, and William Pitt, ought to be engraven on the hearts of all Englishmen, for the noble services they had rendered to their country; for having in fact been the saviours of our glorious constitution. As to the right honourable gentleman to whom this motion was understood particularly to refer, he declared that he could see no reasonable objection to him, compared with those who preceded him in the office to which he was said to be appointed, especially when he considered how young the man was who held that office in the late administration.
Mr. Wilberforcehad the honour, he said, to have been very long acquainted with the principles and character of the right honourable gentleman to whom this motion was understood more immediately to refer, and he sincerely believed him a man of the highest disinterestedness and public spirit. With this impression strongly upon his mind, his opinion must be, that that right honourable gentleman himself would have come forward to render this debate unnecessary, if it were not that, from the manner in which a notice of the motion had been given, the remarks which had been made the preceding night, and other circumstances, such a proceeding might ap

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pear the effect of intimidation, than which nothing, he was persuaded, was less likely to have effect upon the mind of that right honourable gentleman. However, the motion was such as he could not hesitate to support.
The Master of the Rollshaving had no opportunity of inquiring fully into the merits of the general proposition which this motion involved, could not think himself justified in voting for its adoption. There were, in his opinion, a variety of topics, which ought to be fully investigated before such a motion was acceded to. There were many places held for life which ought to be converted into places during pleasure, and, vice versa, there were also many places, the tenure of which ought to be left entirely to the discretion of his majesty, and of which nature the place to which this motion was understood to refer might be one; the house surely would not venture to decide without any enquiry or deliberation whatever. If the case were determined in the very hasty manner proposed, he was rather afraid that the public would not give the house credit for acting dispassionately, in being actuated by the motives which the advocates professed to have in view; for it would be very naturally asked, if such motives prevailed, why should a question of this nature be brought forward in a hurry? When the honourable gentlemen who supported this motion reprobated the practice of granting for life such a place as it particularly alluded to, did they feel that they were reflecting on the conduct of the marquis of Rockingham and Mr. Fox, in 1782, and that it Was a corrupt act, so to grant the same place to lord Ashburton? But his main objection to this motion at present, the learned gentleman Stated to be this, that it took up a broad and general question upon mere personal grounds; and this he the more regretted, because his right honourable friend to whom it alluded, was certainly one who gave up, it was notorious, a very high and lucrative situation in his profession, for the purpose of serving his sovereign and his country in another department, by which act he certainly ought not to be allowed suffer any loss: but taking a view of the proposition under discussion, upon general grounds, he would appeal to the candour and good sense of the house, whether if a case of universally acknowledged merit should arise, to which a Place of this nature ought to be given for life; the house should so limit the prerogative as to prevent his majesty from granting it; whether if a case,
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for instance, such as that of lord Ashburton should occur the day following, the house itself would not regret the imposition of such a restraint? He would therefore put it to the house, whether it would not be extremely rash to adopt a resolution of this nature, restraining the legitimate prerogative of the crown, without any inquiry or deliberation as to its tendency and probable consequences?
Lord Howickdenied the right hon. and learned gentleman's assertion, that this motion went to impose any improper restraint upon the royal prerogative, or that it could in any degree be considered an innovation or invasion of that prerogative. For, in point of fact, what did it propose? Why, nothing more than this, that a place should not be granted for life, which had been heretofore held only during pleasure. He was not at present disposed to enter into a discussion as to the extent of the king's prerogative; but this he had no difficulty in saying, that this prerogative did not authorise the grant of places for life, which had been heretofore held during pleasure. This motion, therefore, only proposed to advise his majesty not to do that which according to law he was not warranted in doing. The conduct towards the judges in the reign of William the Third, had no reference whatever to the case now under consideration. If, indeed, the crown could grant places of this nature for life, why not by and by grant the chancellorship of the exchequer itself, or the lord chancellorship for life? A case of the latter having been so appointed had no, doubt occurred in the person of Wolsey. But, what were the remarks of lord Coke upon that subject? Why, that the principle of such an appointment was utterly objectionable, that it was not legal to grant those places for life which it had been heretofore usual to hold during pleasure. Such, then, was the object of this motion. It proposed only to declare the law to the crown, in order that no deviation from it should take place. With regard to the precedents referred to in the course of the debate, he had not had time to look into all the proceedings upon them; but in the case of lord Ashburton, he believed that the propriety of the grant made to that noble lord was at that time much disputed, and, in his opinion, very justly. For, much as he respected the merits of that great man, he certainly should not have voted for such a measure, as he could not think it was a legal grant. To the memory and character of the marquis of Rockingham, although he was too young to have had the happiness of any acquaintance with him, no one could

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be more willing than he was to pay the utmost tribute of respect. Towards another distinguished member (lord Lansdowne) of that administration under which that grant took place, he felt both respect and gratitude, for to that noble lord he owed much personal kindness. But still he could not express any approbation of the grant they thought proper to sanction, either upon the grounds of constitutional principle or expediency. The right honourable and learned gentleman seemed to allude to some instances of persons being rewarded by pensions for quitting the lucrative profession of the law to engage in politics. He really never heard of any such instance. [the case of lord Grantley was mentioned across the table.] But, resumed the noble lord, that case does not apply; for that noble lord, who was Speaker of the house of commons, was placed in a situation where legal knowledge was essential to the performance of his duty, and that knowledge augmented his title to the liberality of provision. Lord Ashburton, too, filled an high office in the house of lords, and was a cabinet minister. In both the cases the noble lords alluded to were not taken out of their profession, properly speaking. But such was not the case with the right honourable gentleman referred to in the present debate. He did not mean to speak of that right honourable gentleman with any personal disrespect; but certainly he could not compare his pretensions with those of Mr. Dunning. No, they were not to be placed on the same footing, and therefore the analogy contended for could not hold. But, if the arrangement were to make the right honourable gentleman lord chancellor, he should have no objection, neither should he object to see him occupy any of the high legal offices in that house for which his abilities and habits so peculiarly fitted him; but when he saw him leaving his profession for the purpose of pursuing finance, he could not help feeling some surprise, and something more when it was proposed to give the right honourable gentleman a bonus for this singular transfer. Upon this point, however, he did not mean to say more, for indeed it was unnecessary after the admirable, speech of his right honourable friend (Mr. Sheridan), who very justly observed, that of all the other departments, that of chancellor of the exchequer was the one for which the right honourable gentleman seemed to be least qualified. If, however, the right honourable gentleman chose to pursue the career of politics in preference to the career of the law, he must take it with all its risks. It
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had been, the noble lord observed, ascribed to the party with whom he had the honour to act, that they pretended to comprehend all the talents of the country. If they had ever imagined themselves to be so, it would have been a most arrogant presumption indeed; but they always disclaimed any such pretensions, although it suited the purpose of newspaper libellers to persist in repeating the charge; a charge, indeed, which he, for one, took occasion, as often as opportunity served, to repel. But, without arrogating any extraordinary degree of talents to those with whom he was connected; without attempting any contrast with their opponents, he would ask, what estimate was to be formed of the ability of those honourable gentlemen who felt obliged to go to the law for a chancellor of the exchequer, and to offer him a premium for accepting the office? On this head little remained to be added to what the house had heard from an honourable member (Mr. Sharp). who had afforded such an evidence of talent, in this his first essay, as held out the most flattering promise of future eminence.—With regard to the assertion, that only one reversion had fallen in since the late administration came into power, he could assure the house, that this was a mistake, for there was a very considerable reversion which fell in in an island, and another indeed in an office over which he presided, which he did not think proper to dispose of. Now, surely the disposition made by the lord chancellor of a particular reversion in that noble lord's gift could not be cited as an instance to contradict the assertion he advanced on a former evening relative to the general conduct of the late ministers upon the subject of reversions. The fact of the reversion alluded to in the lord chancellor's gift was not classed by the report of the committee of finance in the list of public reversions, but was always considered as a private place, subject to the sole controul of the officer by whom it had in this instance been disposed of.—Adverting to the observation of an honourable gentleman on the other side (Mr. Sturges Bourne) that he ought not to bring forward on the following day the explanation of which he had given notice, in the absence of those who were acquainted with and competent to answer him upon the subject of that explanation, the noble lord stated, that he was glad those gentlemen were absent; for, said he, it is one which I should hold it to be rather inde icate to canvass. I shall confine mself to a statement of the facts, which are so much misrepresented that I should feel it to be highly

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improper to suffer such misrepresentations to be further circulated, and particularly so to leave such misrepresentations to operate during the holidays. To this resolution I am the more determined, and the necessity of an early explanation appears the more obvious, from a letter which was shewn me in a newspaper of this morning addressed to lord Grenville and myself. In this letter some extracts from the minutes of the council are inserted, which serve to shew that the writer had seen our minutes; but he has so garbled them as to give a false colour to the whole transaction. I will appeal then, to the candour of those who hear me whether I should allow such misrepresentation to go unanswered; whether by postponing the answer, I should suffer the misrepresentation to do mischief; whether it be not more becoming in me to state here, it the proper constitutional place, the real circumstances of the case; or, whether the honourable gentleman would have me condescend to answer the writer in a newspaper? I shall upon this explanation trust to the candour of the house, and to the justice of my country, for the vindication of that line of conduct, which in concert with my colleagues, I have felt it my duty to pursue.
Mr. Sturges Bournein explanation, said, he had expressed some surprise that the noble lord should think of bringing forward his explanation in the absence of those who alone could know on that side of the house, the circumstances to which the noble lord would have to advert. The noble lord would not suppose, surely, that he had any thing to do with the publication alluded to by the noble lord. He assured him he knew nothing of it.
General Grahamsupported the motion. He had for many years acted with Mr. Pitt, and generally of course with the gentlemen on the other side, particularly during the last parliament, when such proceedings had taken place against a noble viscount, to whom he had the honour to be related (lord Melville,) as were by their violence and injustice a disgrace to the Journals of the house. He regretted sincerely the dismissal of the late administration, and particularly as they were succeeded by men who from their conduct in abandoning the government on the death of Mr. Pitt, from acknowledged incapacity to conduct it, left that on record which furnished an evidence of their present presumption.—The question being then loudly called for, a division took place: when there appeared for the address 208; against it 115; majority
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93. While the supporters of the address were in the lobby, order was called, and lord Howick addressed them as follows:—Gentlemen; I understand, that it is intended to propose to morrow, that the house should at its rising adjourn for a much longer time than is usual at this period of the session, or than I think consistent with the present state of affairs, or with my views of the public interest. The adjournment which is to be proposed is to next Monday fortnight. It is my intention, on the grounds I have mentioned, to oppose that motion, and to propose by way of amendment, unless, as I hope, it may be proposed by somebody else, that no longer adjournment should take place than till Monday se'nnight at farthest. As there will certainly be a division upon this question, and in all probability an early one, I hope Gentlemen will feel the propriety of a full and early attendance.—(a loud cry of hear, hear.) On the re-admission of strangers, we found that the address had been ordered to be carried up by such members of that house who were of his Majesty's privy council.

MR. PALMER'S PETITION.
A petition of John Palmer Esq. of the city of Bath was brought up, and read; setting forth, "that the petitioner having, in common with other subjects of this kingdom experienced great inconvenience from the tedious, irregular, and insecure mode of correspondence by the General Post, and having had frequent occasions to remark great defects in the establishments of the Post Office, which had become a matter of universal complaint, he was induced to give much serious consideration to a grievance of such magnitude, and was ultimately convinced that improvements might be made so as not only to effect a more speedy, regular, and secure conveyance for letters throughout the Kingdom, but likewise be the means of providing the same advantages for property and travellers, and at the same time of creating and supporting a gradual, and ultimately a very considerable, increase to the revenue, derivable from the Post Office, which, instead of keeping pace with the increasing commerce and opulence of the country, had (in consequence of the defects before alluded to) been long in a state of stagnation, if not of actual decrease; and that in the spring of 1782, the petitioner having arranged the general outline of his proposed reform, and connected with it such an increased rate of postage, with a restriction on franking, as appeared adviseable at the commencement, he communicated the same to the right ho

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hourable William Pitt, the then chancellor of his Majesty's exchequer, who immediately conceived so favourable an opinion of the benefit to be obtained for the country if the plan could be effected, that he gave the petitioner every encouragement to proceed, and requested him without delay to procure all possible information on a subject of so much importance, and to spare no pains in bringing the proposed arrangements into such a state as would enable and justify a trial of the scheme; and that, in consequence of these directions, the petitioner, after making some requisite arrangements in regard to the extensive commercial and other concerns in which he was at that time engaged, travelled over a great part of the kingdom, for the purpose of collecting further information on the subject, the different Postmasters having previously received orders from the treasury to answer his inquiries; and that, during the petitioner's absence, the administration was changed, but the new administration being equally desirous of encouraging and effecting the plan, sent the outline to the general post Office for inspection, and it was returned with voluminous objections from the superior officers, who asserted, that the post office establishment had, after the fullest consideration and every possible exertion, been brought to the most perfect state of improvement, not only as to expedition and safety, but in the interior departments, and that any attempt to alter it would be ruinous to the correspondence and commerce of the country, and if any ignorant projector were suffered to interfere for such a purpose, he ought to be made responsible, as far as might be, for the consequences; and that, although some of these objections appeared well founded, it was evident that others arose from prejudice and self-interest; but the petitioner was directed to answer them in detail, which he had scarcely done . before the administration was again changed; and Mr. Pitt, on his return to office, received further decided objections from the post office, which were followed up by such a determined opposition and outcry against the plan as to create a combination amongst the inn keepers and coach-masters on the roads, and by rendering them unwilling to convey the mails on the terms proposed threatened to destroy the whole of the arrangements made by the petitioner preparatory to the trial; this, together with the complicated nature and construction of the posts, which his plan would totally disarrange, and which he must of course completely new
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model, gave full employment to his mind, and cause for serious reflection and anxiety; and that the petitioner had first taken up the idea of reform as a very simple one, and easy to be accomplished, but as he was imperceptibly led on in the pursuit of his favourite object, the new and accumulated dangers and obstacles which opened upon him at every step, together with the inveterate opposition he experienced from the General Post Office, from which he had been led to expect by government every assistance, convinced him that he had involved himself in almost inextricable difficulties; it had completely possessed his mind, and he had pursued it through different changes of administration for above two years; he had, incurred great expence; the various concerns he had been engaged in had been neglected to his great loss, and he found that he had no alternative now left, but either to abandon the plan, to return to safety, and dedicate his future life to the recovery and improvement of his various private concerns, or to make the sacrifice of abandoning those altogether, and adhere to his plan, and to the chance of acquiring a great fortune for himself and family by its success, as Mr. Allen had done before him by his improvements of the posts; he submitted therefore these circumstances and his situation to Mr.Pitt, and the necessity of immediately settling the terms which were to determine his choice, and that to the justice of this the minister directly assented, and assured the petitioner, that if he would give in his proposals for compensation so that the promised advantages could but be secured, and the agreement be made fair and safe for the public, whatever fortune the petitioner might derive from it, there would be no hesitation on his part to close with it, and to satisfy his mind as to his future prospects; and that, in consequence of this assurance, the petitioner informed Mr. Pitt, through the present Bishop of Lincoln, his then secretary, that he would undertake the proposed reform at his own risk and expence, on condition that he should be entitled to receive, during his life, two and an half per centum on the future increased revenue of the Post Office beyond the present nett profits, provided his plan succeeded, but not a shilling otherwise; and that with this proposal the petitioner delivered in a statement of the Post Office revenue, from a very early period, by which it appeared, that, at the expiration of two centuries from its establishment, it had reached only to £150,000 per annum; and, to mark more strongly the profits he expected to de

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rive from his plan, as well as the powers necessary to carry it into execution, he likewise gave in a narrative of Mr. Allen's transactions and agreement with government in 1720, relative to his farm of the cross posts, which were improved gradually, and at different periods, during upwards of 42 years, till he died (after the accumulation of a very large fortune, and his having received upwards of £12,000 per annum for many years, as a reward for his services, and during the whole time retained the absolute and independent controul of that branch of the Post Office); and that, in reply to this offer, the petitioner was informed by Mr. Pitt, through his secretary, "that the proposal was thought fair, and would be fully complied with, provided the plan succeeded;" and that the agreement having been thus acceded to, the petitioner proceeded to make his plan more perfect, and prepare for the trial; and Mr. Pitt, in every conversation previous to such trial, constantly expressed himself perfectly satisfied with the fairness and moderation of the terms, and the benefit to be derived to the public if the plan could but be successfully carried into execution; and that in the autumn of 1784, after two years of incessant labour and aux ety, the plan was tried on the Western road, and succeeded beyond the promise held out by the petitioner, who had nevertheless afterwards to encounter a renewal of hostilities and impediments from the Post Office, which obliged him to apply for the protection of the Lords of the Treasury, who immediately saw the necessity of their interference, and issued a peremptory order for the purpose; but the mischief had so far been done, that a considerable delay took place before the trials could be made upon the other roads; and that Mr. Pitt, being of opinion that the repeated impediments and opposition experienced from the Post Office rendered it absolutely requisite that the petitioner should hold some ostensible official situation, the better to enable him to forward the establishment of his plan, and prevent further obstructions, proposed that he should be appointed surveyor and comptroller general, with a salary of £1,500 per annum, which should be accepted in lieu of per centage on any part of the Post Office revenue within £240,000, being £90,000 above the amount at that time; and of course the proposed salary was considerably less than the per centage would have amounted to; but the petitioner consented to this proposed modification of his original agreement, ra-
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ther than start obstacles on his part, and particularly as it was intimated that, in case any accident should happen to the petitioner after effecting the plan, but before he had an opportunity of making a suitable provision for his family, there could be no doubt but that government would take such an event into consideration; and that in the autumn of 1785, when the plan had been carried into effect on many of the roads in the kingdom, and arrangements made for its further extension, a draft of the petitioner's intended appointment was prepared at the Treasury, agreeably to the modified terms, being a grant from his majesty appointing the petitioner surveyor, and comptroller general of the Post Office during his life, with authority to suspend any of the officers and servants belonging thereto, and granting him in consideration of his good and faithful services for the advancement of the revenue, and the advantage of the commerce and manufactures of the kingdom, as well by way of reward of such services, as to encourage him to continue his exertions for furthering the same, a clear salary of £1,500, together with £2. 10 s. per cent on the increased post revenue, according to the modification before stated; and that when a draft of this proposed appointment was laid before the then attorney general, he was of opinion that an act of parliament would be requisite to enable the minister to carry the agreement made with the petitioner into execution, as the Post-Office Act of the 9th of Queen Anne merely authorises appointments under the postmaster general, and in consequence of this obstacle the intended grant was suspended till the requisite act could be obtained; and that during this delay, the petitioner not having sufficient authority vested in him to forward and protect his plan, it got into great irregularity, owing to the neglect of the contractors, who had been induced to believe that he was unsupported by government, and that as the plan had to encounter fresh objections and memorials from the Post Office, it must necessarily be given up? therefore being disheartened by these apprehensions, as well as by the severity of the winter, and influenced by the advice and threats of those who were adverse to the plan, a combination was entered into, and bonds under heavy penalties executed among, many of the coachmasters as well as postmasters, not only to decline any mail-coach contracts, but to oppose them wherever attempted to be established; and that in this situation the petitioner found that unless he

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immediately obtained some official powers, the plan must sink, and all his labour, anxiety, and expence be lost; and therefore, after representing his apprehensions to the Minister, and consenting to postpone the Completion of his agreement, till the requisite arrangements could be made respecting it, a limited appointment was in August, 1786, directed to be granted him by the postmaster general, under which he might be enabled to forward his plan, but with an assurance from Mr Pitt, that the full benefit of his agreement should be ultimately secured to him, and he at the same time obtained a warrant for a part of his expences, hot having till then received a shilling either for himself or his numerous agents, although more than four years had elapsed since the commencement of the business, as he was determined to adhere strictly to his proposal, that the plan should be proved efficient and beneficial to the public, before he would accept any remuneration whatever; and that having obtained this limited appointment, the petitioner without loss of time went into Scotland in order to arrange the posts of that kingdom, and afterwards to Paris for the purpose of establishing a daily packet and post connection between France and this country, so that he was not able to return to London till October, 1787; and that early in 1788 he was requested to go to Ire land, in order to settle regulations respecting the establishment of mail-coaches in that kingdom, and likewise for the forming better communications by packets between the northern and southern parts of that country, and the English ports; and that although the petitioner had during these intervals, in his frequent communications with Mr. Pitt, the most positive assurances, that after effecting these farther arrangements the agreement made with him should be no longer delayed, but settled to his entire satisfaction, yet, on his return, he had the mortification to encounter further impediments from the Post Office; and he therefore most earnestly and warmly pressed the minister to carry his agreement with him into immediate execution, and by granting him the promised powers put an end to these hostile attacks from the office, so injurious both to himself and the public; and that Mr. Pitt acknowledged the necessity as well as justice of this demand; and his anxious wish to comply with it; and at last observed, "That it would be a great satisfaction to his mind, and more fully authorise and justify the agreement with the public, if sanction
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ed by the Report of the Commissioners of Inquiry, after their full investigation into the whole of the proceedings." Unexpected and distressing as this further procrastination was, the proposal appeared so candid and proper that the petitioner could not but consent to it; and that in 1788 the Commissioners of Inquiry made their Report as to the Post Office; and stated, with respect to the petitioner, "That he had performed his agreement with government far beyond his promise, not only as to expedition and safety, but at £20,000 per annum less than was proposed; and that he had accomplished his object in despite of numerous difficulties, and a most powerful opposition, and every obstruction that could be thrown in his way by the officers of the General Post Office; and therefore the commissioners declared the petitioner justly entitled to his specified compensation, being a very small part of that increased revenue which his integrity, activity, and zeal, had created, exclusive of the convenience and numerous collateral advantages which the country at large, and more particularly the commercial part of it, derived from his exertions;" and that, after this examination and decision by the commissioners, the petitioner, at the end of December 1788, wrote to the minister, requesting him to fulfil his original agreement, stating at the same time that he had Various other plans which he conceived of the greatest consequence to the correspondence of the kingdom and particularly of the metropolis and its neighbourhood, which waited this final adjustment to enable him to carry into execution: and that further delays now arose from the peculiar and unfortunate circumstances which occurred at that time, and the consequent embarrassments of government, and at last from the difficulties the petitioner experienced in his pecuniary concerns; wearied out with these continued mortifying and vexatious delays, to which he saw no probable end, and against which, or to compel the performance of his agreement, he had no legal remedy, he, at the earnest desire of the minister, consented to continue further to act with the limited and uncertain powers he hitherto had done, but under the strongest assurances on the part of Mr. Pitt, "that there should be no future interference with his regulations from the General Post Office, and that he should feel himself equally protected and advantaged in all respects as if possessed of the intended Patent Grant of 1785, and that he might be assured his agreement was

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equally Valid as if sanctioned by an act of parliament; and that soon after a new appointment was sent to him, and he was paid, after seven years delay, the whole arrears of the salary and per centage to that time, and agreeably to his modified agreement of 1785, but he was allowed nothing for his time previous to the commencement of the plan in August 1714, or for his subsequent great expences in England, or even in France Or Ireland, nor was there any mentioned reversion of the situation for any of his family, as he was led to expect in the modification of his agreement in 1785, but he was told he must look to an ample recompence for all this in the great and increasing advantages of his per centages; and that however convenient the petitioner found this sum for the settlement of his pecuniary difficulties, in consequence of his attention to this business, and whatever pleasure he felt at the arrears, according to his modified agreement, being thus honourably discharged, yet he never failed expressing his dissatisfaction at the Patent Appointment of 1785 not being yet granted to him, or his original agreement not being fulfilled, and his fears and apprehensions of the consequences both to the public, his plan, and to himself; and that for some little time after this, however, the petitioner proceeded uninterruptedly, and to his satisfaction; but it being soon known at the Post Office that he had no legal authority, independent of the Postmaster General, the old opposition and intrigues revived, and were pursued for a considerable time, or at intervals, in a manner that might naturally be expected Where prejudice was so deeply rooted, and power in the exercise of persons so completely at variance with each other, and whose ideas of business, and the mode of conducting it, were so different; and that the former unwarrantable conduct to defeat the plan on one side, and unavoidably so to protect it on the other were again resorted to; on every occasion which the petitioner conceived of importance to his plan, or the revenue, he acted in the best manner he could for its advantage, and to alarm and deter the office from interfering in its conduct and, confiding in the spirit of his original agreement, he uniformly denied at such times the postmaster-general over him, asserted his agreement, and appealed to the minister, which generally produced a temporary cessation to this harrassing and injurious interference with his regulations, and he was frequently assured some line or other should be drawn,
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or some effectual measure adopted, to put an end to it; and that at last the postmaster general suspended the petitioner, in March 1792, for disobedience of their orders, under this nominal appointment, which he had been compelled to act with to the best of his judgment, and independent of the postmaster-general; for, had he not done so on every occasion he thought necessary, and according to the powers described in the patent appointment drawn up in 1785, and I assured to him by the minister, he never could have carried his plan into execution, or the public been in the enjoyment of its advantages; and that after various remonstrances and answers between the postmaster-general and himself at the Board of Treasury, and with which, on the part of the petitioner, the minister expressed himself satisfied, he was compelled to leave the conduct of his plan to the office, as was originally intended, after he should have perfectly established it, but, of course, considered that he was not to be prejudiced in the profits arising from his agreement; and he intimated to the minister, that he still was ready to proceed to further great and extensive improvements, of material importance to the public convenience and the revenue, if granted the requisite powers promised him; and that, some time after this declaration a warrant was sent to the post office for the payment of the petitioner's arrears (according to his modified agreement in 1785) to April 1793; and the Board of Treasury gave him notice that they had settled an allowance of £3000 per ann. on him for his life, in compensation for his services; and that to this the petitioner declared, as he invariably had done, that he should consider himself extremely ill treated if he was paid in any degree short of his actual agreement; that Mr. Pitt had a right, if he thought proper, and as might suit his political convenience, to dispense with his services, but he could not in justice dispense with the engagements he had entered into with the petitioner; and that, in December 1794, after the usual period had elapsed of making up the annual accounts at the General Post Offices, the petitioner sent a memorial to the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, stating his agreement, and requiring Post Offices accounts to April 1794, and the payment of the balance of salary and per centage due to him beyond the sum he had been paid (of £3000). In August, 1795, after various applications and waiting eight months, he received an answer, stat

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ing, that their lordships were of opinion that the sum of £3000 per annum for his life was a just and full compensation for the services he had rendered, and that they did not think themselves justified on the part of the public to make any addition to that allowance; and that, in January 1796, (being shortly after the next meeting of parliament) the petitioner having advised with his counsel in the further steps necessary to be taken in this harrassing business, presented to the Board of Treasury a remonstrance to their answer, and proposed, that if their lordships conceived themselves unable to perform the agreement made with him, an application might be made to parliament on the subject, when the agreement, as well as his merits and his conduct, might be fully investigated; and that although an answer was promised in time for the petitioner to make such appeal, he did not receive it till the dissolution of parliament was determined on, and he had to wait the meeting of the new one in the following year, when a committee of the house was appointed "To consider of the agreements made with the petitioner for the reform and improvement of the Post Office and its revenue, and to inquire into the causes of his suspension, and report to the house the evidence received;" and that, in May 1797, the committee, after being occupied above five weeks on the subject, reported to the house the evidence received, which was ordered to be printed, and fully proved the agreement made with the petitioner as before stated.— Ordered to lie upon the table.

MINUTES.
—The royal assent was given by commission to the Slave Trade Abolition bill, the Irish Licence bill, and the Thames Police bill, and two private bills.—Lord Grenville (who sat with his friends on the opposition side of the house), gave notice, that to-morrow, on the motion of adjournment for the recess, he should state such explanations as he deemed consistent with his duty to his country and to himself, respecting the circumstances which had led to the present situation of public affairs, and of the country.

SCOTCH JUDICATURE BILL.
Lord Grenvillemoved the order of the day for a committee on the Scotch Judicature bill,—
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The house having resolved itself into a committee, the noble lord stated his intention of moving, pursuant to the instruction of the committee, to divide the bill into two, and also of proposing several amendments in that part of it which related to the chambers of the court of session, and to the court of review. With respect to the latter court, some persons had thought that it would be an additional step in the progress of litigation, inasmuch as the unsuccessful parties would still appeal to that house, and therefore that the number of appeals to that house would not be lessened. There was one mode, however, he thought, which would materially tend to lessen the number of appeals to that house, namely, to abolish reclaiming petitions in the court of session, and to substitute, instead, appeals to the court of review. This would naturally tend to produce a more complete adjudication of causes in the chambers of the court of session, there being no opportunity, as at present, of
re-examining their own decisions, whilst there was every reason to believe that that careful adjudication would render appeals less frequent. Of one part of the bill he thought an unfair advantage had been taken out of the house, as he never had an idea that the extraordinary lords to be added to the court of session should hold their places in any other manner than like the judges of England, during good behaviour. He had no objection, if it was thought necessary, to the introduction of clauses, enacting that the persons to be so appointed should have all the requisite qualifications.—After few obserservations from lord Eldon, the amendments were agreed to. In the progress of the bill, lord Grenville stated that upon further consideration, it had been thought inexpedient to prohibit, altogether, appeals from interlocutors; and therefore he proposed to give a power to the court of review to receive appeals from interlocutors, and also on receiving an appeal from final judgment to call for all the interlocutors in the cause. An amendment was adopted to this effect, and the first part of the bill, relating to the chambers of the court of session and the, court of review, having been separated from the rest, the house resumed, and the report was ordered to be received the next day.
Lord Eldonmoved for the appointment of a committee to inquire where the judges of the court of session should be placed during their attendance on the house, and to search for precedents, &c. His reason for moving this was, that he judges of the court of

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session claimed the right of sitting within the bar, they having formed part of the council of parliament in Scotland.—Agreed to.