Sitting of 18 March 1807

MINUTES.
Lord Stopfordread at the bar the report of the Colchester election committee, declaring Robert Thornton, esq. duly elected, and that the petition, as far as the same relates to the said R. Thornton, was not frivolous or vexatious; and also that W. Tuffnell, esq. was duly elected, and that the petition, so far as relates to the said W. Tuffnell, did appear to the committee to be frivolous and vexatious.—Mr. Vansittart gave in at the bar a special report of the Shrewsbury committee, stating the absence of one of its members, and the cause assigned for such absence, namely, sudden indisposition. A medical gentleman attended, and proved at the bar the illness of Mr. Windham Quin, and the impossibility, in consequence thereof, of his attendance on the said committee. Leave was then given to the committee to adjourn till Saturday next.

ROMAN CATHOLICS ARMY AND NAVY SERVICE BILL.
Lord Howickrose and addressed the house as follows:—Sir, since I had the honour of introducing into this house, a bill for allowing dissenters of every description, to enter into his majesty's military and naval services, under certain restrictions, circumstances have occurred which have twice induced me to move for the postponement of the second reading of that bill. I now rise to state, that the same circumstances still continue to operate, and that I shall not be prepared to-morrow to propose the second reading. Not being able to ascertain on what day it may be in my power to proceed with this bill, I think it consistent with my public duty to make this statement, in consequence of which the order of the day for the second reading will be dropped, to be revived as the house may think fit. I am aware, sir, that this intimation must attract much observation, and that the house and the public will naturally expect some information with respect to the motives of it.
150
All I can now say is, that I must beg their indulgence (hear! hear! from all parts of the house). I am not at present authorised, nor would it accord with my duty, to enter into any explanation on the subject. Whenever the proper time shall come, I can assure the house, that no man will be more ready than I shall be to state fully that, which under the present circumstances, I feel bound to withhold. I therefore must confine myself to giving notice, that I shall not move to-morrow for the second reading of the Roman Catholics Army and Navy Service bill.

MR. PAULL'S PETITION RESPECTING THE WESTMINSTER ELECTION.
On the motion of lord H. Petty, the house went into the further consideration of Mr. Paull's Petition respecting the Westminster Election.
Mr. Sheridan roseand said, that he was aware that standing in the situation he did, he was entitled to comment upon, and to sum up all the evidence that had been adduced in support of the allegations contained in the petition now before the house. He should, however, wave that right; the evidence was in the hands of every member of that house, and he was not anxious, if he could do so, to add to the impression testimony of such a nature must have already produced; he would content himself with one remark, which was, that that evidence, weak and futile as it was, did not say more to its own confusion than would have been proved by witnesses unimpeachable, which he (Mr. Sheridan), had the house thought it necessary, was ready to bring forward. As an instance, he should mention merely Mr. Weatherhead himself. When an inquiry was made as to his services in the navy, he confessed himself not quite satisfied with the return of the navy office. A noble lord (Folkestone) was equally dissatisfied, but upon different grounds. The noble lord seemed to think that this Mr. Weatherhead had been calumniated, and accordingly the noble lord moved for a return at once more exact and comprehensive. What had been the issue of this attempt to rescue the character of Mr Weatherhead from this supposed slander? Why, in truth, no more than this: that he, Mr. Weatherhead, had not served in one ship only, but in twelve or thirteen, that he had continued in one ship a year, in another three months, in a third a month, in a fourth three weeks, and in a fifth five days; running, as it were, the

151
gauntlet of the British navy; for it appeared that he had been actually guilty of desertion from each ship, though in the first return it appeared that he had deserted but once. But it was not more difficult to fix the station of this naval officer to a certain ship, than to fix his birth to a certain place; he had the singular good fortune to be born at a number of different places; he was born first at Newcastle, next at Morpeth, and after some other births he was finally brought forth in London (a laugh). But there was another slight ground of objection to the character of this witness; in the month of Sept. 1803, he Petitioned to be examined for a lieutenancy, and to the recommendatory certificates of the different captains under whom he served, there was but one objection, namely, that they were all discovered to be forgeries. He was not anxious to press upon the house the gross and flagrant contradictions and absurdities in the evidence they had heard; he did not wish to expose the miserable wretches to the just rigour of the honest indignation they had so universally excited; but he would put it to the feelings of that house, whether it was not necessary to inquire how far those wretches had been the tools of a conspiracy; how far it was the duty of any agent or agents to inquire into the nature of the testimony and the character of the witnesses, more especially in a case where this evidence went directly to affect the seat of a member of parliament, to mention nothing of the danger of propagating groundless slander against a privy counsellor. It was for the house to consider how far the agents are responsible for employing wretches as substantial evidence, whose character they might have learned (had they been ignorant of it) in the neighbourhood of Bow street, Hatton-garden, and Newgate; but he should abstain; he would keep his word with the house, and not enter into any remarks upon the evidence. He had an idea of submitting some motion for the purpose of investigating the charge of conspiracy; he should, however, in compliance with the suggestions of those hon. friends, whose superior judgement was with him decisive, give way, and should now, through a motive of delicacy, retire, leaving his cause with confidence to the house, assured as he was, that the house would with becoming dignity assert its own character and honour, and in doing so preserve his.—Mr. Sheridan immediately withdrew.
Mr. M. A. Taylor roseand said:—Sir; when this question first came before the
152
house, it certainly did not assume the serious aspect which it has taken this moment. I have read with considerable attention, the minutes of the evidence, which have been taken at your bar in short hand; and I must say, that I differ from the right hon. gent. who has just spoken, as to the course of procedure which ought to be adopted. I may venture to say, that a more flagrant conspiracy never before presented itself to this house. It is not only injurious to the character of the house, but it is, in my opinion, a new mode of attacking Mr. Grenville's bill. It is, I aver, an attempt to make this house a channel of injustice, and the vehicle of malice. On looking over the whole business, although the house may not be of opinion that it is a case requiring us to request his majesty to instruct the attorney general to prosecute criminally; yet, I submit that it is one in which it may be necessary to punish some of the witnesses for gross prevarication. It is well known that the house is always zealous in hearing every thing respecting the rights of individuals that can be offered; and such has been the case in the present instance; but I am still of opinion, that the person who signed that petition, had no reason to be alarmed that any witnesses had been bribed, otherwise he or his solicitor must have inquired into their characters. The apparent motive has been, that such a proceeding might find its way to the hearts of men, so as to prejudge the previous petition, which is in dependence. I must do Mr. Paull the justice to say, that I believe he never would have signed the petition, had he really inquired into or been informed of the real characters of those who were to support it. But those who have acted for him, seem to have used unfair means, merely for the purpose of exciting suspicion. The letter in the custody of Harris appears, from the evidence, to be a forged one. There has evidently been a conspiracy in the present instance. Reasoning upon the principles of justice and morality, is not a conspiracy an attempt to fasten upon a man a wrong which he never did, a crime which he never committed? Take that definition along with you, and look at the character of Drake, one of the witnesses. He appeared before you, he said, as a wounded officer who had fought the battles of his country. He alledged that he had been several times wounded in the service; by the return which has been made, however, he never received his pension for any wound he received in the back; but,

153
that he fell from the mast head of a vessel, and broke his leg, which was afterwards amputated. Nor has this Mr. Drake been able to state, with truth, where he was born. After stating various places in England, he afterwards says, that, when in company with Homan, he boasted he could drink six bottles of claret, because he was an Irishman. Here the hon. member stated various inconsistencies in the evidence of this witness, in which he said, there did not appear a word of truth. Both Drake and Weatherhead were persons who ought, said the hon gent., in my opinion, to receive your utmost censure; and you ought even to adopt the most rigorous measures. For my part, I should humbly submit, that a prosecution ought to be commenced by the crown, against both of them, for a conspiracy; but although you should not think it proper to punish for a conspiracy, yet surely you will punish any man who comes with lies and falsehoods in his mouth to the bar! I may still go further, and say that from the evidence of the other witnesses, it appears, that a conspiracy has been running through the whole of them. If the house do not think that there is enough to entitle them to commit for prevarication, I should be inclined to think, that Mr. Sheridan himself would be fully justified in bringing the question under the cognizance of a civil court. The house, perhaps, would rather wish that Mr. Paull should have the advantage of the witnesses being previously examined upon their oath, before a select committee, as it is not in the power of the commons to make inquiries before them upon oath. All that the house can judge of is the inconsistency. In my opinion, the petition of Mr. Paull ought to be declared false, scandalous, and malicious. This I say appears from the evidence; and I may state that I form this opinion from that alone, not having been in any way connected with the election, nor did I ever see Mr. Paull, till I saw him at the bar of the house; but I feel it my duty, as a member of the house, to support its character, its privileges, its justice, and its probity. Upon these grounds, I cannot submit to pass unnoticed, a petition that would make this house a channel of injustice, for I feel a deep interest in supporting Mr. Grenville's act, as it is one that characterizes the virtue of the house of commons. I never will sit by, tamely, and see, by a new mode and under false pretexts, the security and ends of its justice defeated or sapped in the very foundation. With the leave of the
154
house, therefore, I shall submit a motion, which, when agreed to, I shall follow up with another respecting Mr. Drake, whose prevarications have been most eminently conspicuous. The hon. gent. then concluded with moving, "That the allegations contained in the said petition are false and scandalous."
Lord Folkestonesaid, he had all along acted in this business from a sense of justice and propriety, and a firm belief that the witnesses to be adduced in support of the allegations in the petition, would have clearly and consistently proved them; and though he would not say that the whole of the witnesses had been consistent, or had given their testimony without some difference, yet he thought enough had been proved, by consistent testimony, to sustain the allegations in the petition, in such a manner as to vindicate Mr. Paull, and the agents who acted confidentially for him, against the charge of conspiracy alledged by the hon. member who last spoke Of the character or testimony of Weatherhead, he did not wish to say much; but he thought hat a weak cause, the defence of which rested upon no other ground than that of impeaching the characters of those who came forward to give testimony against it. If, however, it could be shewn, from the evidence itself, that there was in it no such inconsistency as that now alledged, he hoped that it would be admitted, that the arguments of the hon. gent. must, in a great measure, fall to the ground. Laying no stress at all on the testimony of Weatherhead, he yet was of opinion, that the evidence of Drake was consistent with itself, in all its parts. He was examined and cross-examined at the bar of that house, by men of the first talents in the country: and, except in a point or two of no importance, he could find no inconsistency in his evidence. The hon. gent. who last spoke, had assumed in the first instance, that the letter which had been mentioned as written by Mr. Sheridan, and in the hands of Emanuel Harris, was a forgery. This however, did not appear from any evidence before the house. If it really was a forgery, certainly Drake must be guilty of the most criminal conduct: but was it possible, if that were the case, that he should be so anxious for the production of a letter which must have furnished evidence against himself? The hon. gent. too, had endeavoured to implicate Mr. Powell, and the other agents of Mr. Paull, in a charge of conspiracy, by joining with Drake, in the endeavour

155
to obtain from Emanuel Harris the letter in question; whereas it was the obvious interest of Mr. Paull and his agents, that the letter should remain in the hands of Harris, to be produced in evidence when necessary. It had been asserted, that Drake was not authorized by Mr. Sheridan to offer 30 l. to Harris, for the letter; but Drake's evidence stated, that he was authorized to procure the letter, either for money, or by any other means in his power; and he saw no reason to doubt, that, in consequence of the conversations Drake had with Mr. Sheridan, and the anxiety expressed by that gentleman to obtain the letter in question, Drake was extremely desirous to obtain it from Harris, with a view, perhaps, to turn it to his own emolument, by surrendering it to Mr. Sheridan for a sum of money. Adding to this, the frequent interviews Drake had with Mr. Sheridan, both at the house of Mr. Homan and elsewhere—the alledged wish of Mr. Sheridan to have Drake taken up—yet instead of so doing, advising him to get out of the way; and the various instances of frequent and confidential intercourse with Mr. Sheridan, all which Drake had alledged, and which were not disproved, were circumstances that in his mind cast a very strange mystery over the business: but, for his own part, he conceived the evidence of Drake so consistent upon the main points of the case, that he felt no disposition to doubt his testimony upon others. The hon. gent. had stated also, in order to inculpate Mr. Paull and his agents, that before they accepted the evidence of Drake, they ought to have enquired his character at the navy office and elsewhere; but such an enquiry could not be necessary to justify them in considering Drake to have been some time in the confidence of Mr. Sheridan, when it was notorious that he was married to a natural daughter of that gentleman by her father's consent; that he was constantly admitted upon a familiar footing of intercourse at Mr. Sheridan's house; allowed to wait for him in the same room with other company; and that, at one time, Mr. Sheridan had left a party in which he was engaged, in order to converse with Drake; that the latter had frequently negociated bills drawn or accepted by Mr. Sheridan; and, in fact, was known to be on such a footing with him, as to obviate all doubt that he had been in Mr. Sheridan's confidence, and that the evidence he could give would be useful to them. Upon the whole, the noble lord was of opinion, that sufficient evidence had been
156
adduced to sustain the allegations of the petition, to which petition it was to be remembered Mr. Paull had not resorted precipitately, or without the advice of his counsel.
Mr. M. A. Taylorassured the noble lord he had no idea whatever of charging either Mr. Paull or Mr. Powell, with being engaged in the conspiracy, but confined the charge solely to the witnesses produced at the bar of the house.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, he had heard with surprize the declaration made by the noble lord at the outset, and with still greater surprize, the expressions with which he had closed. He would not travel out of the evidence before the house, but from that alone he would prove the falsehood of the witnesses adduced in support of the petition, and establish their infamy out of their own mouths. The allegations of the petition were, that the sitting member had by himself and by other persons offered money to suppress or corrupt the evidence to be offered before the committee, which was to try his right to his seat. Was there any proof that Mr. Sheridan had taken any pains to get Mr. Drake out of the way, who was the principal witness to prove these charges? The noble lord said, Mr. Sheridan had strove to get the letter from Harris. Was there any proof of that? And if there was any proof that any person whomsoever in Mr. Sheridan's interest did in any one instance utter a word like tampering (as he believed there was not), what proof was there that such person was Mr. Sheridan's agent any more than Mr. Paull's. If it was proved that some of the allegations of the petition were absolutely false, and there was no proof that the others were true, was it not to be naturally concluded that the whole were false? In answer to the first question asked him at the bar of the house, who he was, Drake answered he was an acting lieutenant of the navy. That was proved by the Returns of the Navy Office to be false. He said, he lost his leg in the battle of Camperdown; it was proved he lost it long after that battle, in consequence of a fall from the mast, which rendered amputation necessary. He said he had ten or twelve different pensions from the king, in consequence of wounds he had received. It was proved he had only one pension from the Chest at Greenwich. Let the noble lord, if he could, make out a consistent evidence for this man, after these falsehoods. The noble lord wished to

157
give up Weatherhead. But as the petitioner had called him, and the petitioner's counsel had dwelt on his deposition in his summing up, he must make use of him. Drake said, he was directed by Mr. Sheridan, to get the letter from Harris. He said that the first letter preceded the second only two or three days. Harris said, it had been in his possession a full month before the 2d. and long before the dissolution of parliament. Then the noble lord contended, that if the first letter had been a forgery, Drake would naturally have endeavoured to conceal every thing respecting it. But the noble lord forgot that Drake told the house he had burned it, and consequently that he could not incur any penalty from it. He would not allow the noble lord to exclude Weatherhead's evidence, however convenient it might be for his case. Drake said, he had written all the letter, with the letters M. P. to which Mr. Sheridan prefixed his name. Weatherhead said, Mr. Sheridan wrote M. P. as well as his name. Drake said Mr. Sheridan signed the letter in the Shakespeare Coffee-house, just as he was going out to the election, and that there was an immense crowd before the door. Harris proved he had the letter a month before the election, when the Shakespeare Coffee-house was not open. If the noble lord had examined these matters, and judged of them as he did, he would not have attempted to uphold a testimony so invalidated. With regard to the second letter, Drake said first, that he was present when it was signed; and afterwards, that it was written not in his presence but in an adjoining room. Weatherhead said he wrote it, but that Harris objected to the M. P. there being then no parliament, and wished the addition of Treasurer of the Navy, and Mr. Sheridan's residence. He says he wrote those additions all in one line, and that Mr. Sheridan prefixed his name on that line. But he had seen the letter here alluded to, and he pledged himself that Richard Brinsley Sheridan was one line, Somerset-house a second, and the third was Treasurer, Navy. The copy before the house was exactly similar, except that the third line was treasurer of the navy, instead of treasurer, navy, as in the original. What inference could be drawn from such evidence as this, except that the allegations that were founded upon it were false? Drake said at first, he went by authority of Mr. Sheridan to buy up the letter from Harris, and he avowed that, at that very time, he intended to make use of the letter
158
against Mr. S.: but this he afterwards retracted, and said, he formed the determination of using the letter against Mr. S., on some subsequent provocation. But Harris before that time had returned from Portsmouth, and had given Mr. S. a copy of the letter, and was advised by Mr. S. to deliver up the original to the messenger of that house, or to Mr. Paull's agents. But Harris was unwilling to part with the letter till he should produce it before the committee of the house, according to his summons. If, after this, there could be a doubt, that the allegations in the petition, so contrary to these facts, were false, it was impossible that any inference could be deduced from internal evidence. The charges with respect to the tampering by agents, were equally unfounded. Only one person was liable in the slightest degree that the most forced constructions could exaggerate into any thing like tampering; and that person, who had not thought it necessary to defend himself either personally or by counsel against such an accuser, could not be said to be an agent of Mr. Sheridan. He did not wish to implicate Mr. Powell: but Richardson who, by the bye, had answered yes and no at different times to the same question, confessed, that he went to Mr. Burgess to tempt him to offer him money, with the intention to betray that offer. But Mr. Burgess, like a wise and honourable man, would not listen to any such proposition. This same Mr. Richardson confessed, that he wrote a letter to Mr. T. Sheridan, in which he threatened to go over to the other party, unless he got money. And he likewise went to Mr. Burgess, and offered to betray to him copies of the whole of the proceedings of Mr. Paull's committee: but this offer also Mr. Burgess, like an honourable man, refused. He should be sorry to accuse Mr. Paull or Mr. Powell of being concerned in a conspiracy; but he thought that if they could not have taken care to prevent such acts, they should have at least more maturely weighed the evidence of such persons, before they founded such charges upon it. He acquitted the counsel of any improper intention in what they had offered to the house; but they should consistently with their usual diligence, have sifted more minutely the false and scandalous evidence by which the false and scandalous allegations in the petition were supported. He agreed in the propriety of the motions proposed by his hon. friend.—The motion was then agreed to, lord Folkestone alone having faintly said "no."
Mr. M. A. Taylorthen moved, that William Drake, in giving his evidence, was guilty of wilful falsehood and gross prevarication. Agreed to.—Mr T. also moved that William Drake, for the said offence, be committed to his majesty's gaol of Newgate, and that the Speaker do issue his warrant accordingly. Ordered.
Mr. Whitbreadobserved, that though the other witnesses for the petitioner had grossly misconducted themselves, he did not think it necessary to have recourse to any further severity, and therefore would propose no motion with respect to them.

FREEHOLD ESTATES BILL.
The Solicitor Generalmoved the order of the day for the third reading of the bill for rendering the Freehold Estates of persons who die insolvent, assets for the payment of their simple contract debts.
Mr. Tuffnellsaid, that he did not doubt the present bill would operate in a considerable degree to enlarge the credit of freehold proprietors, and facilitate the raising of large sums of money, which, to many, would be a considerable source of prosperity; but, at the same time, it must obviously be productive of considerable inconvenience, and in many cases of much mischief to the creditor, who having no means to come at any precise knowledge of the debts already due by the freehold proprietor, or the settlements made upon his estate, would feel himself much disappointed, upon the demise of his debtor, to find debts to a much larger amount than he expected charged upon that property to which he looked for his security. This would necessarily give rise to litigations without end, and set the new creditor upon endeavouring to find out flaws in the settlements which preceded his claims, with a view to set them aside for his own advantage; and thus, in many instances, the creditors, for whose security this bill was avowedly designed, would have just reason to complain that their property was injured rather than served, through a measure which would teach them to advance large sums, and to rely often upon a hollow security. He thought too, that it was unfair to place the freehold property of the country on such a footing, while the copyhold was exempt; and peculiarly severe to involve the whole of the former, merely for the faults of a few men. He was convinced the learned gent. who introduced this bill, was amply competent to devise means for his purpose much more eligible. He concluded by expressing a hope that the bill would be re
160
committed, and that further time would be given for the better consideration of a subject of such importance.
The Speakerobserved, that in the present stage of the bill, it was too late after it had been engrossed, to have it recommitted.
Mr. Simeondefended the bill. He stated that the present bill was not a new idea of the hon. and learned gentleman's who brought it in, but that a bill similar to the present, and still more extensive, as including copyhold property, was brought in, in the year 1772, by a most learned lawyer, Mr. Ambler, and had passed through that house at a time when there were a great many very eminent lawyers who had seats there. It was lost afterwards in the lords, in a very thin house, when 7 voted against it and but 5 for it. He could easily state many cases of the most severe injustice which could be practised under the present law. Country bankers might purchase landed estates with the money of other people, and these estates would descend to their heirs free from all their debts as bankers. As a master in chancery, many cases came before him, where creditors for considerable sums stated that they did not think it worth their while to prove their debts, as they had no specialties, and the property of the deceased was principally in landed estates. He considered this property of freehold estates not being liable to those debts, as a mere remnant of antiquity, that had been kept up long after the reason of it had ceased.
The Master of the Rollsupon such a proposition as that which was then before the house, a proposition which, if it was carried into effect, would make a most material change in the law of the land, felt it to be his duty to state his sentiments most fully and explicitly on the subject. In so doing, it was necessary, first, that he should, endeavour to bring to the recollection of the house, that it was only under the feudal laws that freehold property was first established; and it was impossible for any man to tell what further change the present innovation might lead to. By the old law of France, the moment a man was married, one half of his property was secured for the benefit of his children; by the present law of Scotland in certain cases, the whole property was secured by law to their heirs: but did any man ever say that these laws were unjust? They might be deemed impolitic in many instances, but they certainly were not unjust. It had been said that it would be unjust that the heir to an estate

161
should be living in affluence, whilst the creditors of his predecessor were left to starve; but would it not be also an injustice if the heir to an estate were to be deprived of his birth-right through the improvidence of his predecessor, and be left in the greatest possible distress, perhaps, in some cases, whilst he was paying the debts of another person's contracting? If this new principle was to get footing once amongst the laws of England, almost every marriage contract in the kingdom might possibly be annulled. Allowance should be made for the necessary fictions and peculiarities which were adopted in law proceedings; it might be reckoned absurd, for instance, that in the case of specialty or simple contract debts, the addition of a bit of wax in the one case, whilst in the other there was nothing but the name subscribed, should give the one such superiority over the other, that the one would be for the most part paid, whilst the other would, in many instances, be left unpaid. But such were the established distinctions which were sanctioned by the laws of the realm, and no evil was found to result there-from. With respect to the cases which were stated to have occurred before the masters in chancery, a bill might be brought in to remedy those particular cases without making any general alteration in the principle of our laws. This he conceived to be a most important consideration, and it brought into his mind the observation, that no country in the world was so jealous of its political liberty as this was—and yet he maintained that our political was nothing in comparison with our civil liberty. In this point of view he considered the bill as one that might be productive of the most serious consequences to the country. It might have been necessary at the time of Edward I but it was not suited to the state of England under George III. when commercial speculations had increased to an extent that our ancestors could not have thought possible ever to have been brought about. If this measure was to be now adopted, a man who was disposed to commit a fraud would only be led to vest his money in copyhold instead of freehold property; the commercial man, if he possessed the most extensive funded property, would have only to get into that house and he might defy his creditors. At the time of the introduction of the statute of Frauds, the statute of Limitations, and at the time of the enactment of a law to regulate cases of Debtor and Creditor in our colonies, it must have come to the
162
recollection of the legislature that there was this peculiarity in the law which it was now proposed to alter; but still it was never, at these times, thought of changing the law with respect to England; a plantation was only considered as an instrument of commerce, whilst the attachment to the soil of England was cherished by the legislature. There had, since that, been two attempts to graft a measure, of the nature now before the house, upon the English code, the one by the late lord Kenyon, and the other by another most eminent lawyer, but both these luminaries of the law, upon mature deliberation, abandoned the measure, as being unsuited to the genius and manners of the people.
Mr. C. Wynneobserved, that the frequent passing of acts of insolvency was a proof of the defect of our laws with relation to debtor and creditor. As the law now stood, a man who advanced a sum of money to another would take care to have the best security possible for the recovery of the amount of that debt, whilst the honest and industrious tradesman would for the most part suffer for the want of a similar security.
Mr. Calvertdeclared, that he had conversed with several persons upon this subject, but he never heard of such frauds as had been alluded to this night. The men of landed property he now heard represented as being the rich and the oppressors, and the commercial part of the community were spoken of as a poor and distressed set of people. The very reverse of this he believed to be the fact. The landed property men were the sheep, whom the minister, whoever he was, could easily lay hold of and sheer at pleasure; when, if a minister attempted to lay his hands on any particular branch of commerce, there were meetings in every coffee-house in London, and in many cases they escaped from his grasp.
The Lord Advocateof Scotland observed, that it was a peculiarity in the English law, which was unknown to the ancient Greeks or Romans, or to any modern state in Europe, that the death of a man should put an end to all the moral obligations which he owed the world. He was himself, in the proper sense of the word, a strong aristocrat; but he did not think it right to support the aristocracy by such means as the law now sanctioned. In Scotland and in Germany a most high and honourable sentiment of the antiquity and greatness of families prevailed; but still they did not allow a man to roll in the wealth which had been

163
left him by his ancestors, whilst at the same time he would stare the creditor of that man in the face, and say he would not pay him. He asked any man in that house, would it not give him an additional pang upon his death-bed, if he knew that he was to die without being able to do justice to his fair creditors? He asked any man, could he bear to think of going in grandeur to the funeral of a relation who had left him a considerable estate, without at the same time some qualms of conscience disturbing his breast, if he knew that the debts of that relation were left unsatisfied and that he did not mean to discharge them? A man must have a mind incapable of distinguishing right from wrong, or else he must design wilfully to deceive, if he did not answer these questions in the affirmative. It was but two days since the house passed a law on the grounds of humanity and justice, against every argument of expediency which could be urged, and could they, then, refuse their sanction to a measure so founded on justice as the present? The idea of innovation was held out as a bugbear; but was every science, art, and manufacture to improve by innovation, whilst the law alone should be deprived of its claim to pursue a similar course of amendment?
Mr. Canningcompared the present to a law which had formerly been introduced for the regulation of country banker, by making their estates liable to their debts. Lord Kenyon observed upon that measure, that it would be necessary that every banker should have a map of his estate and catalogue of the incumbrances on it hung up in his house. A measure of that sort had been adopted in Ireland, and the only result was, that it increased commercial property, and rendered the estates unsaleable. Such, he contended, would be the result of the present measure, if it was to be adopted by the house.
The Solicitor General roseto reply. He had listened with the most patient attention to the objections that had been urged against the measure, both in and out of that house, not with a view technically to advocate it more effectually, but with the determination wholly to abandon it, should those objections appear to him to possess any weight. The result, however, was, that the sentiments with which he sat out on the subject, remained unaltered. He was decidedly of opinion, that to exempt an estate from the payment of debts contracted by its late possessor, was a most flagrant act of injustice. He was
164
surprised that there were those who maintained that such an exemption was just, and he was somewhat concerned that among them was the only member of that house who was invested with the robes of magistracy. He had not proposed this alteration in the law hastily. Before his introduction of it into the house he had consulted the highest legal authorities in the kingdom upon it, and, with the exception of his honourable and learned friend (and even he had not expressed any direct dissent), it had received their unanimous and perfect approbation. A rt. hon. gent. had accused him of attacking the aristocracy of the country. He had a high respect for the aristocracy, as forming a part of our mixed constitution; he had indeed shewn a higher respect for it than that which had been displayed by the opposers of the bill; for he wished to rescue the aristocracy from the imputation of being unwilling to pay their debts: he wished to shew, that they did not owe their weight in the country to an unjust law, by which their just creditors might be defra ded. (Hear! hear!) The hon. and learned gent. asserted that this bill had the approbation of the three presiding judges of three of the highest tribunals of the country; and, that it was a bill for the relief of the poor creditor against his rich debtor. He described and argued upon the situation in which poor servants and inferior tradesmen were placed, with regard to their rich debtors, as the law now stood; for not having in general any bonds, theirs being merely simple contract debts, they could not recover against the heir of their debtor. After dwelling for some time on the injustice resulting from this deficiency in the law, repeating the words of sir John Strange, that "a man who dies, without making provision for the payment of his debts, sins in his grave," the learned gent. concluded with expressing his hope, that the house would not suffer a bill to be lost, which had for its object the removal of that deficiency, and which proposed to remedy an evil, that was in fact a reproach to the justice of the country.
The Master of the Rollsexplained, and assured his hon. and learned friend, that he never intended to throw an imputation on the bill before the house, or on the fair intention of its learned mover.The Master of the Rolls explained, and assured his hon. and learned friend, that he never intended to throw an imputation on the bill before the house, or on the fair intention of its learned mover.
The Solicitor Generalwas sorry to have misunderstood his rt. hon. friend, and assured him that nothing was farther from his mind than to give a moment's pain to his right hon. friend.—The question was now loudly

165
called for, and the house divided. For the bill, 47; Against it, 69; Majority, 22. The bill was of course lost.

SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.
Mr. Wilberforcelord Howick, and several members of the house of commons, brought up the Slave Trade Abolition bill, agreed to with amendments.
Lord Grenvillecalled the attention of the house to this subject, which he considered one of the most important that could occupy the attention of their lordships. With respect to the amendments made in this bill, he was satisfied they were calculated to carry its principles better into effect. It was, however, necessary, that time should be given for consideration, and he therefore moved that the bill, with the amend

147
ments, be printed. Ordered. His lordship then stated, that if the prints should be on the table before Monday, he should move the consideration of the amendments on that day.

SCOTCH JUDICATURE BILL.
Lord Grenvillesaid, that in consequence of what had passed in the late discussion of this measure, and of the consideration which he had since been enabled to give to the subject, he thought it would be more advisable to empower the committee to separate all that part of the bill which related to trial by jury, from the other parts which related to the division of the court of session into three chambers, and the formation of a court of review. He thought this mode would be better than that of which notice had been given on the former night of discussion by a noble and learned lord, namely, to strike out in the committee all the clauses which related to trial by jury, as, if this latter mode was adopted, it might lead to a supposition that it was intended to abandon altogether the proposed introduction of trial by jury. On the contrary, he hoped that that part of the plan would ultimately be adopted by their lordships. As, however, there was considerable difference with respect to the means of carrying this desirable object into effect, and as, with respect to the division of the court of session into three chambers, there was scarcely any difference of opinion, and but little on the subject of the formation of the court of review, these parts of the plan might be adopted with much less delay, if considered in a separate bill, than if they remained incorporated with the clauses relating to trial by jury. He should therefore move to postpone the committee to Monday, intending, on that day, to move the instruction which he had before stated, and in the consideration of that part of the subject respecting the division of the court of session and the court of review, it was his intention to propose several amendments.
Lord Eldonthanked the noble lord for having thus given farther time for the consideration of that part of the subject which was involved in considerable difficulty, namely, the trial by jury. He had no doubt that the trial by jury might, in some cases, be beneficially introduced into Scotland; but great consideration would be required with respect to the means of carrying it into effect, in order that it might not produce injury instead of good. With respect to the other part of the subject, he would give it every consideration in his power, and en
148
deavour to come to that result, which, whilst in his judgment it would tend to remedy the evil that existed, would not violate the act of union. He doubted whether the court of review should not be rather sought in the chambers of the court of session, similar to our court of exchequer-chamber, with relation to the courts in Westminster-hall, than rendered a distinct court superior to the court of session, which he was inclined to think not consistent with the articles of union.
The Lord Chancellordeclined entering at present into a detailed consideration of the subject, but he had no doubt that in the proper stage of the bill he should be able to convince their lordships that the difficulties in the way of the introduction of trial by jury in civil cases into Scotland were much less than were apprehended; that, on the contrary, it would be comparatively an easy task, whilst at the same time it would be a most beneficial measure to that country.
Lord Melvillemerely wished to throw out for consideration the necessity which in his opinion existed of adopting means to bring causes to greater maturity in the outer house, without which he thought the proposed measure would not produce any thing like the beneficial effect expected from it. With this view he thought it would be more advisable to have only two chambers in the inner house, whose sole business it should be to review the decisions given in the outer house, where, from the larger portion of time allowed to the judges for transacting business, that business might be done well. If, however, it was determined to have three chambers, he thought that one of those chambers should be allotted solely to the business of the outer house, in which case, from the single responsibility attached to the judges, every thing that could result from efficiency and from solemnity of decision might be expected. His only object was, that the measure should undergo the most serious and attentive discussion.
The Earl of Lauderdale rosechiefly for the purpose of doing away any impression that might result from what had been said by the noble viscount, that his noble friend, who had proposed the measure, had not given to it the most anxious consideration. He agreed with the noble viscount in the necessity of adopting some means of doing the business in the outer house in a better manner, as it had been calculated that a lord of session, in consequence of the multiplicity of other business, had only 63 hours in

149
the year to allot to that in the outer house. This, however, had been provided for in the present plan, by which (the three chambers only sitting alternately) 8 judges might always be allotted to the business of the outer house, whilst, according to the proposition of the noble viscount, only five could sit there.—After some further conversation, the committee was postponed to Monday, for which day the lords were ordered to be summoned.