Sitting of 12 March 1807

MINUTES.
—A ballot took place for a committee to try and determine the merits of the petition, complaining of the election and return for the city of Dublin. The following gentlemen were appointed on the committee: Ed. Loveden Loveden, esq. J. R. M'Kenzie, esq. J. Robinson, esq. Earl of Yarmouth, T. Johnes, esq. F. Fane, esq. Sir C. Mordaunt, bart. G. Thomas, esq. A. Brown, esq. S. Horrocks, esq. N. Fellowes, J. Lemoin, esq. Sir J. P. Cotterell. Nominees, H. Parnell, esq. I. Gascoyne, esq.—

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—Mr. Adam, pursuant to notice, moved that the order for taking the Aberdeenshire petition into consideration on the 24th instant, be discharged, in order to have it put off to the 13th of April. After a short conversation between Mr. R. Dundas, the lord advocate of Scotland, sir J. Pulteney, Mr. Perceval, Mr. Canning, and Mr. Adam, the motion was negatived without a division.—Sir J. Newport brought up a bill for the improvement of the city of Dublin, which was read a first time; and, on the motion that it be read a second time on Monday next, Mr. Shaw (of Dublin) expressed a hope that the hon. baronet would not object to the printing of the bill, nor press the second reading on so early a day as Monday next. It was a measure by which the interest of his constituents might be very materially affected, and he was therefore anxious to have sufficient time to consider the provisions it contained, of which he was then ignorant, as well as to communicate with his constituents, the parties most interested, upon the subject. The Speaker informed the hon. gent. that, as the bill was, in a great measure, of a private nature, it fell within the provisions for regulating the proceedings upon private bills, and that, in like manner, as in the case of all private bills from Ireland, the period of three weeks must intervene between the first and second reading. The second reading was then fixed for Monday three weeks.

WEST INDIA PLANTERS' PETITION.
Mr. Hibbertpursuant to notice, rose for the purpose of moving, that the Petition of the West India Planters, presented on the 27th of Feb. be referred to a select committee.—The petition was then read, as follows:
"To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled, the Petition of the undersigned Planters Merchants, Mortgagees, Annuitants and others, interested in the British West India Colonies,
"Humbly sheweth, that the West India Colonies of Great Britain, having been planted and settled by British subjects, have, in long course of years, progressively advance in cultivation, wealth, and importance, from which the mother country has derived vast and increasing advantages, in respect to her commercial and financial resources, and her naval power.—That the capital at present existing in the British West India Colonies, estimated at little less than one hundred mil-
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lions, and which is for the most part an investment gradually created, in the course of nearly two centuries, out of the gains of the Colonial trade, is but a small part of the British stake in those important establishments. Your petitioners are ready to shew, by official vouchers, that nearly one-third of the whole of the British imports and exports is involved in the West India trade, directly or collaterally; and that, in more than that proportion, the effective defence and power of the empire depend thereon; as the best and most productive nursery of seamen.—That the foundation of these benefits and this prosperity was laid by the act of King Charles II. chap 7, entituled 'An Act for the Encouragement of Trade,' the preamble of which uses these remarkable words: 'And in regard his majesty's plantations beyond the seas are inhabited and peopled by his subjects of this his kingdom of England; for the maintaining a greater correspondence and kindness between them, and keeping them in a firmer dependence upon it, and rendering them yet more beneficial and advantageous unto it, in the further employment and increase of English shipping and seamen, vent of English woollen and other manufactures and commodities, rendering the navigation to and from the same more safe and cheap and making this kingdom a staple not only of the commodities of those plantations, but also of the commodities of other countries and places, for the supplying of them, and it being the usage of other nations to keep their plantations trade to themselves.'—That, in conformity to the intimate union and relations here delineated, the colonial system of Great Britain has, in subsequent times, been systematically established; whereby, in every essential respect, the industry, trade and navigation, of the Colonies, are strictly confined to the interests of the mother country; she, in return, granting to them and to their productions an exclusive or marked preference at her home markets, a facility of meeting in foreign markets a vent for the surplus of their produce beyond her own ample supply, and her needful support and protection against enemies, foreign and domestic.—That, however, in various instances, and more particularly since the calamity that befell the once flourishing colony of St Domingo, (whereby a temporary and accidental encrease of value was given to the great staple productions of the Colonies), the colonial system of the British Empire has been varied or departed from, to the disadvantage

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of her Colonies; restrictions have been imposed upon the access of their surplus produce to the foreign market, thereby affording a powerful stimulus to the cultivation of foreign Colonies; the production of their principal staple article, sugar, has been encouraged and promoted in dependencies of the empire not subject to colonial regulations; a progressive taxation on sugar has been accumulated, which is calculated to impede the natural progress of its consumption in a prosperous and luxurious nation; and, while the progress of taxes at home, naturally attending a state of war, has, in the course of the last twenty years, doubled the cost of every article which the Colonies import from the mother country for their use and necessary cultivation, the anxious care of the British legislature appears to have been directed to every measure that might, at any time, prevent the colonial produce from obtaining the advantages of any temporary. demand and addition to its value, unattended with regulations, on the other hand, competent to protect the colonist from depressed and ruinous prices.—That, more particularly in the late wars, in which the mother country has unfortunately been compelled to engage, has the pressure of the existing colonial system been felt by the British West India Colonies; the access to a foreign market of that surplus produce, Which, for her advantage, and, in order to her own ample supply, the repeated public voice of the mother country has urged and stimulated the Colonies to grow, has been often impeded and sometimes denied.— In the mean time, the produce of those colonies, which have, at any time, by the fortune of war, fallen into our hands, has been admitted to form an additional glut at the home market, and placed on a footing there with the produce of our old Colonies. And, as if to render the evil irreparable, and the case desperate, the great and acknowledged superiority of the British navy has not been exerted in impeding the transit of the colonial produce of the enemy to its European market, whereby the inducement, which the enemy might have, to except colonial produce from the rigour of our general exclusion from the continental trade, is taken away, and the British colonist, under all the increased and continually increasing expences of war is subjected to contend, now and henceforward, with rivals, exempted from those charges, and enjoying the most advantageous markets, without the impediment of British competition.—That measure have
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lately been recommended to parliament, professedly intended to afford relief to your petitioners, but which, so far as they respect sugar, the great staple article the British West India colonies, can only prove beneficial in case a channel of export be opened; but, during our present almost total exclusion from the continent, can have little effect in relieving the distress now felt by the growers and holders of sugar: and, that the proposed additional duties on spirits, although very wisely and providently intended, will be comparatively of small benefit to the British plantations, unless a decided and marked preference be given to the consumption of rum in the navy and army.—That, under the progressive influence of the grievance, the effect of which has been experienced by your petitioners in the course of the last ten years, they are at last reduced to the hard necessity of continuing the cultivation of their estates at a very heavy loss, as they cannot be rendered productive in any other culture. Documents already on the table of your honorable house, supported by the most respectable evidence, shew, that the average price of sugar, at the British market, has been, for some time past, barely equal to, often beneath, its positive cost to the planter, without any the smallest return for the capital embarked on the plantations, for the support of decreasing population, or for the maintenance of that numerous class of British subjects, whose sole dependence has hitherto been the produce and income returned for British industry and skill, exerted in the cultivation of the West India colonies, whereby your petitioners are reduced to a distress which they humbly conceive calls for the immediate attention, investigation, and relief of the legislature.—That your petitioners humbly suggest, as measures calculated for their relief, provisions of the following nature, either permanent, or co-existent with the present war, as may seem best to the wisdom of this honourable house; namely, a revision of the system of taxation on sugar, and a reduction in the rate thereof, which, under a proportionate extension of the home consumption, might probably not diminish the revenue; such provisions as may admit the article of sugar into preferable consumption in the distilleries and breweries, while its depression in price, compared with that of grain, may demand such preference; the permission to barter the staple articles of sugar and coffee, as well as those of rum and molasses, with the American States, in return for lumber

89
and other necessaries, for a needful supply of which the colonies depend on an intercourse with those states.—And your petitioners humbly pray, that these measures, or such of them as may seem most expedient to this honourable house, or other measures adequate to the relief of your petitioners, under their present burthens and distress, may, by the wisdom of this honourable house, be provided and passed into law. And your petitioners shall ever pray, &c."
Mr. Hibbert roseand said, that this was a petition of considerable and extensive interest. It stated the extreme hard case of a large body of his Majesty's industrious subjects, upon whose labours depended one great branch of our commerce, together with much of our maritime strength and financial prosperity, and who were reduced at length into the predicament of profiting nothing by their labours; a situation which threatened their inevitable decay and ruin. He would, in a very cursory manner, advert to the general principles of policy upon which these colonies had been established, and to that system under which they are connected with the mother country. The doctrines of the economists, and of Dr. Adam Smith in particular, had been supposed to be more adverse to that policy, and to that system, than they would, on examination, prove. Those theorists had laid down principles true and good in themselves, but not adapted to invariable practice; they had, as a sensible modern writer on colonial policy (Mr Brougham) observed, leaned too much upon positive institutions, and excluded from their consideration the influence of passion, taste, and caprice, upon the pursuits of men. It might be true, that the most safe and profitable direction of labour was to home trade, and to quick and frequent returns of capital; but in a maritime and commercial country, no legislative provisions could restrain the occasional impulse to emigrate towards new situations, and new objects of labour. Sir J. Child had rightly said, that "had England no colonies, she would entirely lose the profit of the labour of that description of her inhabitants which settle there; they would go to foreign countries, rather than not go at all." Now, if a committee of political economists were to sit, and to endeavour to turn to the best account the connection with such emigrants, would it not say, "Do not let us lose you; wherever you go, consider this as your home; send us your produce, remit us your gains; do not go to a continent where we
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cannot so well protect you; go to islands, where our navy may be your guard. Do not build ships, or manufacture; those are our concerns; produce what we cannot raise at home, yet what we must buy elsewhere, if you do not send it to us, and what may also be valuable to others, if you send us more of it than we want. Do not depend on us for a large population of labourers in hot climates; you must find them elsewhere, for we have them not to spare to you." Could the strictest policy dictate otherwise? and yet this exactly describes our West India colonies: from small beginnings they rose, and now had reached a height of importance and prosperity, which gave them a distinguished rank among the remaining resource of the mother country. Thus the real value of the produce imported from these colonies was not less than 12 millions sterling, of which was annually re-exported, on the average, about the value of £5,500,000, a circumstance most important in the balance, of our trade, and in the regulation of the course of exchanges, and which, in very critical situations of this country, has been found (as bank directors and monied men could prove) the best check to the baneful effects of the drains of specie caused by large foreign subsidies. On the other hand, the export to the colonies (and almost entirely in British manufacture or British produce) was in real value not far short of £6,000,000. This trade employed from 900 to 1000 ships; the tonnage 250,000 tons; and at one man to each 14 tons (which was a reasonable allowance), upwards of 17,000 seamen. There could be no question as to the beneficial influence of all these items upon our maritime, commercial, and naval prosperity.—It might not be uninteresting to compare this statement with the utmost height of the colonial strength of France, which she had attained at the moment of the revolution. She had then about the same number of ships which we now have in our colonial trade, of somewhat larger, tonnage, and carrying, in proportion to that tonnage, a larger number of seamen: the official value of her exports to the colonies was upwards of £3,000,000 sterling; of her imports, upwards of £7,000,000 sterling: and the relative importance of these imports in her foreign trade, was even greater than in our case; for it appeared, that she consumed at home a much smaller proportion of her colonial produce, and that by it, and by it alone, she turned the balance of her trade with all the world to a favourable results. Of 80 millions

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of livres, the value of her export to the Baltic, 55 millions was in colonial produce; and of 424 millions of livres, the value of her exports to all Europe, the Levant, and continental America, 152 millions was in colonial produce. These particulars are sufficient to shew the grounds on which that axiom in French policy had been built, that her maritime and commercial prosperity were chiefly dependant on her West India colonies.—He had heard and read some general objections to our colonial establishments, which he would very briefly notice. They had been said to occasion or to promote Wars. This he thought was a most unfounded objection; and he could not trace any thing in history to confirm it. The colonies had often been the victims, never the cause of wars; they became objects of cupidity to belligerent powers, but that only proved their general value and estimation. The epidemics which had of late proved fatal to Europeans in those climates, had also been alledged. He remembered when the West India climate was considered as healthy as any other in the same latitude. He believed that the existing fever was an imported malady; and there was a prevailing opinion, that another evil to which those climates were subject, a visitation of which they had not, however, lately experienced, that of a violent commotion of the elements, might, by its occasional recurrence, render the air purer and more healthful. The capital embarked in these establishments had been stated to be improvidently withdrawn from other safer and more profitable adventures; but it was very little known or considered that not only the amount of the capital now embarked in the colonies, but also a large balance of profit, had been accumulated in the different branches of that commerce, and was the gain of the mother country resulting from her long account with those establishments. Unquestionably, of the money now lent to the colonies, a considerable part might have been spared from other pursuits: but there had also been, on the other hand, large sums from time to time withdrawn from colonial commerce, and embarked in the agricultural and funded securities of the mother country: and upon the whole he was persuaded, from an attentive and long experience in the trade, that the balance resulting from the connection was very greatly in favour of the mother country. It was to be noticed, that the planting business was not the only profit of the colonists; that there were merchants and others resident in
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the islands concerned in foreign traffic, or in serving and supplying the plantations, who grew rich by their commerce, and who had not yet been deterred from embarking their accumulations in the agricultural adventures of that country which had enriched them. If, then, for many years past, the successive administrations of this country had appeared to regard with coolness and indifference the colonies, and to adopt measures which rather indicated a jealousy of, than a wish to promote their welfare; if, in the publications of the present day, coming from respectable quarters, there appeared an anxiety to diminish their importance in the public estimation, to what were such sentiments to be imputed? Was it because these establishments were so intimately connected with us, that, whether the colonists themselves grew rich or not, the whole produce of their labours was sure to be ours? Was it because they were so securely our own and out of the reach of our inveterate enemy, that they were the objects of his envy, precisely in the proportion in which they were not the victims of his .power?—that they did not require bullion from us, but sent it to us in return for our manufactures?—that they neither built ships, nor made for themselves whatever we could make, but were employed in producing what we could neither produce nor do without, and what was an important addition to our means of commanding foreign trade, and of attracting foreign capital?—that they did not require for their defence large armies concentred in one spot, and which, from their magnitude and their distance from the metropolis, became in themselves matter of reasonable jealousy to the mother country?—or was it that the long intercourse we had enjoyed with our constantly attached and loyal colonies was grown insipid by its harmony, and that, as in the case of married couples who lived too much together, something like the amantium irœ were wanting to stimulate regard, and rekindle mutual affection? If this were the case, and that we were only making a moral or philosophical experiment upon the passions of the colonists, it would be well if we were careful not to tickle them into a frenzy, or, what perhaps was more to be apprehended, pinch them to death.—He should notice very briefly the colonial system, which was one of mutual monopoly;the mother country retaining to her own use land advantage, in all essential respects, their trade, navigation, and supply, and affording to them and to their produce, an exclusive

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or marked preference at her markets. This system appeared to be of old date with great maritime powers; something like it might be traced in respect to the colonies of Carthage, of which evidence might be found in Polybius. Laws grounded upon it had progressively been enacted in this country, some under the Protectorate; but the system had taken a definite shape in the time of Charles II., and was admirably pointed out in the preamble to the celebrated act for the encouragement and regulation of trade passed in that reign; that preamble would be found to comprise the elements of our entire colonial system, and indicated the mutual monopoly; but, as was ever the case betwixt a stronger and a weaker party, the compact was less formal in the parts that bind the mother country than in those that bind the colonies: he would, however, state to the house, in this respect, the opinion of a much-lamented statesman, Mr. Fox, who, in 1781, when the sugar refiners petitioned parliament to admit foreign sugars on certain terms, into British consumption, and into use in the refineries, took the part of the colonies, and spoke in these words:—"The noble lord (Beauchamp) had called the non-importation of prize sugars a mere Custom-house regulation, and therefore thought the rule might be easily dispensed with; but he must inform his lordship, that a compact more solemn than any act of parliament could create made that rule not to be infringed, for we had monopolized the produce of our plantations by unnatural restrictions on their trade. This was the only country in Europe in which they were permitted, by our laws, to sell their crops. Surely then, by every principle of reason and natural justice, they should also have an exclusive access to our markets, a monopoly subsisting on one side necessarily implying a monopoly also on the other. There was not any written agreement, but there was something more substantial; there was monopoly against monopoly. The West India planters were confined in the sale of their commodities to Britain, and Britain was confined to take their commodities from them and them only. This tacit bargain was confirmed not by words out by deeds; the planters enjoy certain privileges, and for those privileges they gave something in return, an ample equivalent; so that there was quid pro quo, which was allowed in the civil law to be a formal ratification of any compact or bargain." He recollected the debate, and believed that the sentiments he had taken from
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the reporters of the day were those delivered by Mr. Fox. The petition of the sugar refiners was rejected, and the house gave its confirmation to the doctrines he had advanced. The complaint which the refiners addressed to the public on that occasion (and in which the public became interested parties), was, that the colonies barely and scantily supplied the home consumption of sugar, and furnished no materials for foreign trade, which it was alledged was the advantage to which this country ought to look; the colonies appear to have taken the hint, and to have profited by the lesson then given them.

In 1781 the export of sugar to all

parts, excepting Ireland, was

Cwt.

equal to about

111,095

1791 it was

267,213

1798

783,698

1799 it fell, in consequence of

acts hereinafter mentioned, to

237,062

1802, after the repeal of those

acts, it was

1,744,263

1805, it consequence of ob-

structed exports, it was

960,296

Thus it appeared that the colonies had accomplished the object which the British public demanded of them, and had not only amply supplied our own consumption, but furnished us with a large surplus for our foreign trade. In 1791 an event happened, which appeared to throw a momentary gleam over the fortunes of the British colonies, but which, however, had, in reality, he thought, contributed to their distresses; the destruction of St. Domingo caused a considerable advance in the prices of sugar, and other colonial produce, and occasioned in this country much clamour among the public on account of those prices. The public became anxious for new sources of supply, and the East Indies were looked to; it was not considered that our East India possessions are not colonies, nor subject to our control, and subservient to our views as such. Lord Melville had pronounced, in a letter to the Directors,* his opinion that they never could be considered as colonies, for the reason that we could not command their exclusive trade. He did not mean to give more importance to the cultivation of sugar in India than it deserved; its consumption in this country appeared to be annually from 50 to 60,000 cwt., but its consumption in Europe,
*Letter of the right hon. H. Dundas, the chairman of the East India Company, 15th April, 1793.

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which had first been promoted and encouraged by us, was something more; and its consumption, both here and elsewhere, was probably now kept down by the excessive low prices of colonial produce; but, as a principle affecting our colonial system, the admission of East India sugar into our consumption, on the terms on which it now stands, could not be justified; and he would cite, on that subject, the opinion of a committee of the Court of Directors themselves, extracted from a report under the date of March 1802, and in which the following passage occurs:—"It may become a question hereafter, how far the importation of sugar from the East, which leaves a loss to the importer, and the first cost of which is paid for by silver from hence, shall be encouraged to the prejudice of the West India sugar, the cost of which is either spent by the proprietor in the mother country, or paid for by the manufactures or stores exported from home; for silver is often received from the islands, but seldom sent thither. The balance of trade is, as it always must be in future, in favour of India; it is therefore highly important to probe the question, which relates to the cultivation and importation of such an article as sugar from the East, to the bottom. The value of every rupee invested in sugar, and imported from the East, is an additional rupee to the balance of trade against the mother country. Some able and well-intentioned persons have made it a question, whether sugar may not be supplied from India to almost an indefinite amount; but they are not aware that the success, or, in other words, the benefit of India, in this instance, would prove the destruction of the mother country, which could not exist under the immense drain of bullion that must follow. If the East was in the same predicament with the West Indies, when the cost of the sugar was either spent in Great Britain and Ireland, or paid for in manufactures and stores, it would be consistent with the soundest principles of political arithmetic to encourage the importation by every possible means." The house would observe that this was not the opinion of a committee of West India planters and merchants, but was signed with the respectable names of the East India directors, C. Mills, J. Roberts, F. Baring, J. Bosanquet, H. Inglis, J. Cotton, A. Robarts, and E. Parry. The evil attending the St. Domingo revo-
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lution, however, did not stop here; the scarcity of colonial produce which it occasioned, suggested to the British ministry the delusive project of making foreigners pay a part of our heavy duty on sugar. It was said that we had the whole colonial trade under our command—that foreigners must take their sugar from us, and that we might therefore safely deny a proportion of our drawbacks and bounties on the re-export. This expedient was brought forward in 1796, was approved by parliament, and in that year 4s. were taken from the drawback on the raw sugar, and 7s. from the bounty on refined. This he considered as a most impolitic measure, a mere expedient of the moment to get over the difficulties of the year; and he was sorry to say, that, in the whole course of his mercantile experience and intercourse with ministers on commercial subjects, he had too often found that the expedient of the year was the chief object, and that others, perhaps eventually more important, must give way to that. Like greedy and improvident farmers, it was the year's crop we looked to, one white crop perhaps after another, and stimulated most likely by alkalis and forcers of all sorts; regardless whether we were or were not reducing the soil to a caput mortuum but let the soil be once reduced to a caput mortuum, and then neither the farmer nor the financier will find their crops stack or thresh out well.—In 1799, this pernicious measure received new force, by a further reduction of the drawbacks and bounties, on the same alledged principle as before; but the delusion did not last long; for in that year, a Report from the West India merchants was made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, affording the most irrefragable evidence that Great Britain did not in fact command the colonial trade, or the supply of Europe with colonial produce: that report states, that there entered at the port of Hamburgh, between the 8th March and 10th Sept. 1799, chiefly laded with sugar and coffee—146 ships from America, 3 from the Havannah, 7 from the East Indies, with sugar, 18 from the neutral West Indies, 56 from Lisbon and Oporto; in all 230; and that, from all the British ports, there had only arrived, in that time, 211 ships, of a small tonnage, and not entirely laden with colonial produce. This representation, or the facts to which it relates, and the evident decline of our export of colonial produce, caused the restoration of the drawbacks and bounties to their old standard: but the channel of trade had

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taken a new course, and a very material stimulus had been given to the cultivation of the Spanish and other rival colonies.—The duty on sugar had been increased at different times from 3s. 6d.,at which it stood about 60 years ago, to its present rate of 27s. per cwt., with a further provisional tax hanging over it of 3s. per cwt. When the duty was only 3s 6d., a writer of the name of Massy had computed, that 16s. per cwt. was an ample price for sugar at this market, and paid the planter a fair return upon his capital. I mention this, said Mr. H., for the purpose of shewing how erroneously we judge, when we see a rapid and astonishing advance in the price of articles, and infer that the producer of them is growing rich in proportion to that advance; for it now stood upon most respectable evidence, in a report upon the table of the house (the Report of the Sugar Distillery Committee), that when the consumer at sugar paid for it 63s. per cwt., not one shilling of that amount went into the pockets of the grower. It was in fact thus applied—

s.

d.

To the revenue for duty

27

0

To the ship owner for freight

10

0

To the underwriters for insurance

3

6

To the docks, public offices, and to merchants and brokers for commission

3

0

To the Manufacturers for goods sent out, and to the curers of fish, provisions, &c.

13

0

To the island revenues for taxes, and to white servants, medical assistance, and other contingencies there (ever and above the produce of rum)

3

0

To America, for lumber and provisions from the United States, or from the northern British colonies

3

6

—

—

63

0

so that, with the exception of a pittance that went to America for articles of the first necessity, the whole came directly into the pockets of various descriptions of British subjects, and circulated in every possible channel that could interest the capitalist, the manufacturer, and, the landholder.—He was ready to acknowledge that the magnitude and amount of the duty on the British consumption of sugar was a matter that could not be oppressive on the colonies, so long as a market, at a fair price, was found for their produce, so long as its consumption at home was not impeded, and that for its surplus, by
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the aid of just drawbacks and bounties, a foreign vent was obtained; but it must be evident, that, in the failure of such export, and in case a large and unusual quantity were thrown and forced upon the home consumption, the duty must, in such case, fall upon the grower, since the price he got must be that reduced price at which he could tempt an extra consumption of the article at home, even if it were by making it the food of cattle; that in 1803, a war duty of 4s. was added on this article, and the planters were assured that it must fall on the consumers, as the export trade would soon be freed from impediments. It happened, however, that the whole of that duty, aggravated additional charges, originating in the renewal of war, did fall upon the growers. In, fact, the duty must ever do so, unless a fair price, at the foreign market for the surplus produce be obtained.—That the result was this: it had been held in that house, that a British subject, having embarked his property in a manufacture at home, attended with labour and risk, had a right to expect 10 per cent. as a fair return upon his capital. The colonist, who manufactures sugar in distant islands, is surely entitled to at least as much; yet 10 per cent. upon a colonial capital, embarked in a sugar plantation, he was ready to prove, would require 25s. to 30s. per cwt. free from all charges whatsoever, upon the sugar produced. Now, what had been, for many years past, the situation of the west India planter?
In 1786 and 1787, he got about 19s 6d. per cwt. free from charges.

1799 and 1800, about

10s.

9d.

1803, before the new tax, about

18s.

6d.

after new tax

12s.

6d.

1805

12s.

1806

nothing

for the greater part of the crop of 1806 had sold for about 35s. 6d. per cwt. ex duty when 36s. ex duty has been proved to be the cost of producing it—This he considered was a case demanding the consideration of parliament; for he could produce high authority* for the maxim, that when a class of industrious cultivators are labouring at prices inadequate to their support, the:statesman ought to consider it better that they should be relieved, and the burthen sustained by the whole community, than that it,should fall upon and crush that single class.—He might be asked, what can parliament do?
*Sir J. Stewart's Political Economy, vol. I. p. 495.

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Had they not lately passed a bill for the relief of the trade? They had indeed passed some regulations tending to encourage an export, but, alas, the door of export was not open!—He considered that there were various means of relief possible and practicable; and although obstacles in respect to each presented themselves, those obstacles ought to be considered in relation to the object to be obtained. A small and inconsiderable object deserved to be set aside by almost any serious obstacle; but the obstacle might be great and weighty, and yet the object might be much more so. He thought that when the distress of this trade came to be considered with attention, and the consequences that might result from that distress traced into all the channels which it was likely to reach, parliament would be of opinion that it deserved to be relieved even at some risk, and at the expense of some sacrifices; but he would slightly consider the several means of relief which the petition itself suggested.—In respect to the present duty levied on sugar, it was evident that relief might be granted in that respect, even without any sacrifice of revenue, should a forced and extraordinary consumption take place in consequence of the export being stopped. If we consumed an additional million of cwts. (one third of our whole import), which we usually exported, we might evidently abate one third of the duty, and yet not be losers; but, even were a greater reduction demanded from us, it would be more prudent to support the grower of that which gave the duty, than to levy the tax rigorously to his ruin.—An extra consumption at home in the distilleries or breweries might seem to be now out of the question, since the report of the committee on the subject: the committee, however, had only determined upon the present inexpediency of that measure, and had even recommended that steps should be taken for obviating any obstructions which exist to its future adoption, in case it should become necessary; and the growers of grain need not be jealous of such an interference with them, since, were it judged proper to permit a free export of grain to the West Indies, more would be so exported than the distilleries now took off, arid with additional advantage to the islands.—The permission to America to take sugar and coffee in return for the lumber and provisions she supplied, had been granted formerly, and might be granted again, either experimentally, and as a temporary relief, or under certain permanent limits, without any
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detrimental interference with the colonial system, the value of which he was not disposed in general to contest, or unnecessarily to interfere with its restrictions. But there was another subject on which he was very little inclined to dwell, as he knew that it stood connected with many great and important interests; yet the welfare and support of the colonies was unquestionably one of those interests, and it might be right for the committee to enquire how far the welfare and very existence of our own colonies were endangered by the consideration which we persist in paying to the claims of neutrals, in forbearing to impede, as in time of war we might, the transit of our enemy's colonial produce to the European markets, under all the advantage and security of the neutral flags, thus taking away the inducement which the enemy might have to except colonial produce from the rigour of his general exclusion of our commerce. Certain he was, that none of the neutrals, not America herself, could have one interest more dear and valuable than that of preventing Great Britain from sinking in a contest, in which she was the bulwark of all that remained of independence in the civilized world, and in which she must certainly sink, if she be not enabled to avail herself of her wonted resources, arising from the industry of her subjects in every part of her extended empire.—For these reasons he trusted that there world be no objection to his motion. The noble lord who now conducted the finance department (lord H. Petty) had expressed his approbation of the measure; that noble lord had been educated in sound principles of political science, and he trusted that while he collected the stream of public prosperity, he would not neglect its source.—The hon. gent. then moved, "That the petition of the West India planters, merchants, and others, be referred to a select committee of this house to consider the same, and to report, from time to time, to the house, their opinions and observations thereon."
Mr. Jacobbegged to enter his protest against the statement of the hon. gent. that either the present administration, or the one that preceded it, or that of lord Sidmouth, had been either cool or indifferent respecting the interests of the colonies. The American intercourse bill of last session shewed the attention of the present ministers to the wants and accommodation of the colonies.
Mr. Rosefelt himself called upon by the allusion to the American intercourse bill, to

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state, that he still considered it as an injurious measure. If not for that, the whole shipping trading to the colonies would, in a year or two, be in the hands of this country. Not more than one sixth of the manufactures exported from this country was sent to Spanish America.
Lord Templedefended the American intercourse bill from the statement of the right hon. gent., who had gone so much out of his way to repeat his former opinion upon that measure. He should be happy to meet that hon. gent. on the subject, and was confident he could prove that the measure was highly beneficial to the colonies. The only difficulty that had arisen respecting it, was, that the colonies did not think it went far enough, and expected more than his majesty's ministers would or could concede.
Mr. Wilberforcewas happy that this question had been brought under consideration before the passing of the Slave Trade Abolition bill, because the distress complained of in the petition could not be imputed to that measure. He had long regretted the extraordinary increase of capital employed in procuring colonial produce; but certainly should not object to any just consideration for the distresses complained of.—The petition was then referred to a select committee.

MUTINY BILL.
Mr. Hobhousebrought up the report of the committee on the mutiny bill A desultory conversation ensued on the various clauses, in which Mr. Bastard, the Secretary at War, Mr. Windham, colonel Wood, Mr. Yorke, Mr. Canning, and sir John Doyle participated. All the clauses were eventually agreed to.—On the Speaker's inquiry, whether any amendments were proposed to be made in the body of the bill,
Lord Castlereagh roseHe considered the system of the right hon. secretary for the war department as too complicated to effect its own purpose. In the papers on the table was a case which satisfied his own mind that that system was wholly inadequate to maintain the necessary present force, and was calculated to involve the country in future hazard, unless some modification of it, such as that which it was his intention to propose, should be adopted by parliament. He contended, that since the defence of the country had been entrusted to the right hon. gent., it had been materially deteriorated. Indeed, the right hon. gent. seemed to admit that the home defence was inadequate to its object; for otherwise, after having blamed the predecessors of the
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present administration for not having assisted the continent, he would hardly have abstained from making a single exertion to co-operate with our allies, or to prevent the French from carrying their troops from the Coast to the Vistula. Nothing had been done, with the exception of that enormous subsidy of £80,000 to Prussia, for which his majesty's ministers had even thought necessary to apologise. Fifteen or twenty thousand men had been sent on distant foreign service, and by that means the home defence had been much weakened. The volunteers also, that right arm of the public force, had been withered under the right hon. gent's superintendance; and with respect to the Training bill, which was to bear down all before it, from the day that that bill had passed, nothing had been done, but making out the lists and apportionments, though a whole twelve-month had elapsed. For all this deduction from the home defence, we might be consoled, if the body of the force detached abroad had been sent on objects of real importance; but here the right hon. gent. was equally unfortunate. At that moment, 20,000 men, the flower of the British army, were locked up in Sicily, remote from every thing that it was the interest of the country to endeavour to acquire. The conduct of his majesty's ministers, with regard to South America, had been equally vacillating, and equally unwise; not a step had been taken by them till the negotiation at Paris had terminated. The noble lord animadverted with severity on the expedition under colonel Craufurd, of whose destination, he believed ministers themselves had no clear conception. With regard to the modification which he meant to propose, it was clear that the right hon. gent. could not allege that his measure had been adequate to the immediate necessities of the country; and if not so, it would be much less adequate to the waste which his system contained within itself; a waste, doubling the usual casualties of the army. The modifications he proposed would not, however, prevent the continuation of the right hon. gent's experiment; it went merely to allow those recruits who wished to do so, to enlist for life instead of a limited period, thus counteracting the dangerous effects of the existing system. The documents on the table proved, that up to the first of January last, the right hon. gent's plan had riot produced more than was formerly produced by the ordinary recruiting. Since that period, he was happy to find, that the number raised was in-

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creasing, but this was owing to circumstances applicable to any system, and above all, to the notice given to officers of second battalions, that unless a certain number of men were raised within a limited period, those battalions would be reduced. He compared the right hon. gent's system with the Additional Defence act, and having argued at considerable length, in deprecation of the one, and in defence of the other, concluded by moving, as a proviso to that clause of the bill which related to the administration of oaths to recruits, that if any recruit should declare before a magistrate his intention of enlisting, but not for a limited time, on receiving such bounty as his majesty should think proper to offer, it should be lawful for the magistrate to take his oath for such extended service.
Mr. Secretary Windhamsaid, he was glad to find that the noble lord, though not uniformly, had allowed that his plan had succeeded. The fact was, that the recruiting had increased, and the desertions had diminished. The general force of the country had been augmented, and as to the home defence, unless the enemy were to meet with greater successes than those of which we were at present apprised, it would be some time before any tremendous danger could be apprehended. The noble lord had been perfectly safe in his observations on the expedition under colonel Craufurd, because he knew that it was unlit at present to divulge the object of that expedition. "But," says the noble lord, "why not "harass the enemy in some other place?" Would not this reduce the home defence of which the noble lord was so tenacious? As to activity, an injudicious and imprudent activity was more dangerous than indolence; for in military subjects he could not agree with the French proverb, which said, in the idiom of that language, "It is better to do nothings than nothing." The noble lord cried out for expeditions. What sort of precedents of expeditions had the administration, of which the noble lord had formed a part, afforded? Had not the noble lord, by sending out his expeditions, contrived to drown a great many men in the English channel, and to wreck a great many others on the enemy's coasts? As to the diminution in the energy of the volunteers, their zeal and activity had been called forth by the danger of the country; should the country again be in danger, he had no doubt that that zeal and activity would again be displayed, but at present there was no motive fur their ex-
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ertions. The noble lord complained, that his (Mr W's) bill had not done what it never professed to do, namely, in seven months to cause an immense increase in the army. A measure intended to produce a regular, permanent, and increasing supply, was, incapable of making a great and sudden accession. He combated the comparison which the noble lord had instituted, between the present military system and the defence bill of the last administration, and contended, in contradiction to the noble lord, that the superiority was greatly on the side of the former. He shewed, from a comparison of the returns, that the produce of the regular recruiting, under the former system, was to the present only in the proportion of 214 men a week to 509. The desertions were under the former system; in the last six months of the year 1805, as 1 to 157; in the last six months of 1806, the proportion was as 1 to 268. The improvement in both these great points continued to increase to the present hour; and in proportion as the new measures began to be better understood, their operation would be more extensive. Their influence was founded on the fixed principles of human nature. It was not by affording the present means of debauchery that he sought to fill the army, but by holding out prospective rewards, to which it was desirable that the minds of the people should be fixed; and, therefore, the amendment of the noble lord was to be deprecated, as going to undermine and unsettle the root they had already taken.
Mr. Rosestated, that calculating the expense of recruiting parties, coupled with the bounty of 18l. it made every man cost the country 38l. by the time they joined. Calculating the increased expense of Chelsea, the expense was not less than 65l. a man. The expense of Chelsea, on the present system, would amount, in time of peace, to between 700,000l. and 1,000,000l. a year.
Colonel Shipleyfrom his experience in his own regiment, assured the house that recruits were obtained in greater numbers and of better quality; not the debauched outcasts of the manufacturing towns, but the sons of the yeomanry, sent by their fathers to devote a part of their youth to the promotion of the glory of their country, in a war which was maintained for the preservation of the rights of mankind.
Colonel Barrybore testimony to the same satisfactory operation of the new measures with respect to his own regiment.
Sir James Pulteneyrepeated his former arguments against discharging men in the middle of a war. Great mischief would arise from that principle in the colonies, and with all our naval superiority, it would be found extremely difficult to transport the men backwards and forwards, as often as it would be necessary; he thought it unfair to institute a comparison between the ordinary recruiting now, and what it was while the Additional Force act subsisted. It would appear, on examination, that as great a proportion of recruits deserted now as under the former system.
Sir John Doyle roseamidst a very general call for the question. If he had not been warned to be brief by the lateness of the hour, ha should not be so stupid as not to take the hint gentlemen were so kind as to give him. (a laugh). He was against the amendment, as it went to mix limited and unlimited service. The very objection the gentlemen opposite urged formerly against his right hon. friend's plan was, that it would have this effect; and yet they now brought forward as an amendment a principle which would have the same effect permanently, and in a much greater degree. His right hon. friend's plan had been stigmatized as visionary, theoretic, and quixotic. Its theory was, that by accomodating the service to the feelings and principles of human nature, more men would be obtained, and of a better quality. The theory of the noble lord was, that by making the situation of the soldier worse, and binding him to it for life, he would enter into it more readily, and remain in it more contented. The regiment he had the honour to command had been twice filled up so as to exceed its compliment under the present plan, thought it had at one time sent 250 men, and at another 200 to the first battalion. There was a physical as well as a moral improvement in the quality of the recruits. (Here there was a general coughing, which was stopped by a cry of order!) The hon. Bart. said, he was happy to find that the coughing did not proceed from any indisposition in the health of the house, though it might from an indisposition to hear him (a laugh). The measure produced 500 men a week since January, which was in the proportion of 26,000 a year. If this measure was visionary and quixotic, he wished we had more of such quixotism. The physical superiority of the recruits now detained was evinced by the small proportion rejected; their moral superiority by the reduced number of de-
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sertions. He was sure, that however cold calculation might anticipate the possibility of the return of a large number of men at the expiration of their periods, leaving our colonial service in a circumstance of great exigency, there would always be found in the bosom of British soldiers a spirit which would never permit them to return to their homes while the service of their country required their service abroad. He cited the instance of a Scotch regiment under Marquis Cornwallis, in India, which, though its period of service had expired, volunteered for an expedition then fitting out, with the exception of two men, who afterwards came back, and begged to be received, but whom the regiment, with a becoming esprit de corps, refused to receive. He also cited the instance of the new regiments raised for service, limited in point of space as well as of time, that volunteered to accompany sir Ralph Abercrombie in his expedition to Egypt, and argued for unlimited service both in time and space, in order to have their offers accepted. He saw all this, and felt and marked it as a proof of national honour, which would never admit a British soldier to avail himself of the expiration of his period of service, in order to retire, when his country should be in want of his arm, but on the contrary would prompt him to renew his engagement and to persevere till the danger was dissipated. Having set out with the intention to be brief, and having received frequent hints from gentlemen to that effect he would now sit down; for, though he had something more to say, he thought he could not leave the house under a better impression than what he had just said was calculated to produce.
Mr. Percevalthanked the hon. general for his statement. Though not intended for that purpose, it fully corroborated many of the predictions made by himself and his friends respecting the consequences of the military plan introduced by the right hon. secretary. Frequently had he adverted to the inconveniencies and difficulties that must arise from that plan to the colonial service, from the discharge of men in time of war, &c.; but it would seem that men now crowded so thick to fill up the ranks, that all these inconveniences and difficulties would vanish before the magic operation of the new system. Yet he could not help wishing that the effects of this astonishing bill might be compared with those not only of the recruiting, but also of the parish bill. It would then be seen (and he could

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prove it even from the papers on the table) that the two months, namely February and March, of the year 1805, exceeded the returns of the two favourite months, set forth as so productive, under the influence of the new system. Even in the last stage of its existence, the parish bill produced 1265 men, a greater number than was now obtained from the full vigour of this new plan. As to the volunteers, that system was acknowledged to be at an end; for the danger of invasion was said to be over, and that alone kept them together. It would therefore appear, even from the confession of the right hon. gent. that those "depositories of pa-"nic" only came forward in the hour of danger; that when danger shewed itself, then it is they flock to their standards. The hon. and learned gent. concluded by adverting to the expedition in which a gallant colonel (Craufurd) had been engaged, who so frequently detained the attention of the house by his observations upon military affairs. He trusted, that to whatever part of the globe he was destined, he carried with him the countenance of ministers. He hoped that his labours would be crowned with success, and that he would not have to report his triumphs to ungrateful masters (hear! hear!). That if he should be fortunate enough to secure for his country as great a conquest as the Cape of Good Hope, he would be at least entitled to the gratitude of this house, or be allowed to wear his hard-earned laurels, without obloquy and reproach(hear! hear!) It was an awful prospect for the country, it was an awful lesson naval and military gentlemen of the house, to reflect, that they were to earn their professional character and fame, by their service within these walls. (Loud cries of hear! hear!)
Mr. Windhambegged to ask the learned gent. if he wished to insinuate that the hon. colonel (Craufurd) to whom he had alluded, had obtained his present appointment in consequence of any services he was supposed to have rendered government in that house?
Mr. Percevaldisclaimed any such insinuation, and observed, that he must have been wholly misunderstood by the right hon. gent.
Mr. Fawkesbegged to be allowed to make a single observation. He did not pretend to know what was the destination of the hon. colonel so strangely alluded to; but whatever might be that destination, he trusted that should that honourable officer disregard his instructions, and divert to any other purpose the force entrusted to him, but that
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which his orders pointed out, he would be brought to a court-martial, to have his conduct cleared; or otherwise, that he would have to relate his story to "ungrateful masters."
Mr. Percevalagain rose to explain, and declared, that he was likewise misunderstood by the hon. gent. who spoke last.—The house then divided on the amendment. For it 60. Against it 179. Majority against it 119. The bill was then ordered to be engrossed.—The second reading of the Roman Catholics' Army Service bill was deferred till Tuesday next, after which the house adjourned.

SCOTCH JUDICATURE BILL
Lord Grenvilleadverted to the discussion which took place on Tuesday relative to the memorial of the lords of session, and to the desire which was then expressed of being informed of the opinions of the judges of the court of session respecting certain parts of the bill for the better regulation of courts of justice in Scotland. Whilst he was decidedly hostile to any proposition for receiving the opinions of the lords of session with respect to the expediency of the bill as a legislative measure, he still thought it of importance that their lordships should have the opportunity of putting questions to the judges of the court of session, or some of them, with respect to the practical effect which might be produced by any of the provisions of the bill. In making a proposition to effect this purpose, his object was to avoid all unnecessary delay, it being his earnest wish that the bill should pass through that house so as to allow a reasonable time for its discussion in the other house, and this also with a view to what, from the state of the business in par-
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liament, there was every reason to expects namely, a termination of the session at an earlier period than had been usual for some time past. To send therefore questions for the opinion of all the judges of the court of session, must necessarily be productive of extreme delay; the only mode which appeared to him practicable, was to order the attendance of the lord president of the court of session, and the two senior lords of that court, during the discussion of this bill, with an understanding that any of the other lords whose convenience it might suit might also attend. His lordship concluded by moving, that the lord president of the court of session, and the two senior lords of that court, do attend the service of the house with all convenient speed.
Lord Kinnairddoubted, the propriety of hearing the lords of session at all, but if they were to be heard, whether they should not all be ordered to attend.
The Earl of Lauderdaleobserved, that if all the judges of the court of session were ordered to attend, it would greatly impede the regular course of justice in Scotland.
Lord Eldonconcurred in the propriety of the motion, and suggested that the stage of the bill in which the attendance of the judges would be most useful would be in the committee.
Lord Grenvillewas of opinion that no delay ought to take place in the progress of the bill, and that the house might still proceed on it in the manner originally proposed.
Lord Aucklandwas anxious to have it distinctly understood, that the attendance of any of the other lords of session who might find it convenient, would be desirable.
The Lord Chancellorapproved of the motion, which he thought the only practicable mode of having the opinions of the judges of the court of session.—The motion was then agreed to.