Sitting of 27 June 1807

MINUTES
Lord Folkestonegave notice, that he should on Monday move, that the papers relative to the Affairs of India, commonly called the Oude Papers, be re-printed.—Mr. Lethbridge presented a Petition from Mr. Palmer of the Post Office, praying for public money, as a remuneration for his services. The petition, and also the proceedings of the committee to whom the matter had been referred in the year 1797, were ordered to be printed; and the hon. member gave notice, that he should on Tuesday move for the house to go into a Committee, to take the same into consideration.—Sir S. Romilly presented a petition from 130 persons confined for debt in the King's Bench Prison, 54 of whom were charged in execution, and the remaining 76 on mesne process. They were ready, he said, to give up all their property to their creditors, who refused to consent to their being set at liberty on such terms: 112 of the number had families dependant upon them for support, and the number of their children amounted to 347. The petition prayed for revision of the laws of debtor and creditor. It was his wish not to have presented this petition, because it had been said in another place, that he had it in contemplation to bring in a bill to alter and amend these laws, when, in fact, he had no Such intention. The reason why he did not bring forward such a measure was, that he had not been able to discover any effectual remedy for the very great evil complained of. However, as the petitioners were desirous that he should present their petition to the house, he thought it his duty to comply with their request, though he should nut follow it up with any motion,
660
except that it should lie on the table. He had presented the petition on the earliest opportunity, in order that, if the business should be taken up by parliament, gentlemen might have the most ample time possible afforded for directing their attention to the subject. The petition was then brought up, and ordered to lie on the table.—Lord Howick thought it necessary, in order to judge of the nature of the resolution to be proposed by the chancellor of the exchequer on Monday next, relative to Private Bills, that the house should be in possession of information respecting the actual state of the private business at the late dissolution. As he did not suppose there could be any objection to the production of the information he required upon this head, he should move, "That there be laid before the house, an account of all the Private Bills, which were in their progress through that house on the 27th of April last, specifying the stages to which they had severally arrived; and of all the Private Bills, that had passed, but had not received the royal assent." Ordered.—Lord Howick adverting to the statement made on the preceding evening by the chancellor of the exchequer, relative to the conduct of government in having acted upon the provisions of the American Treaty bill, after that bill had expired, thought that the house should be made acquainted with the extent to which such provisions had been acted upon without the authority of law. This information would be necessary previous to the discussion of the bill of indemnity, which the right hon. gent. proposed to bring forward. He did not imagine there could be any objection to the production of Copies of all Orders from the different Public Offices, since the 27th of April, for the Collection of Duties not authorized by law. The Chancellor of the Exchequer did not apprehend that there was any other order, but the Order of Council, dated the 27th of May, for continuing the regulations of the act that had expired, till other provisions should be prepared by parliament, that could be produced on this subject, and that order he held in his hand, and had brought down to present to the house this day. The chancellor of the exchequer then presented the Order of Council which was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—Lord Howick moved, that there be laid before this house, an account showing the amount of all sums of money that have been issued at the receipt of the Exchequer to the paymaster general of the forces, the treasurer of the navy, the treasurer

661
surer of the ordnance, and for all other public services, between the 28th of April and the 27th of June instant; specifying the funds out of which the same have been issued. Ordered.—Mr. Bankes gave notice, that on Monday next, he should move for leave to bring in a bill to prevent the granting of Places or Offices in reversion. It had also been his intention to give notice of a motion for the revival of the Finance committee, but that was in other hands, in which he was happy to see it, and he trusted that no time would be lost in bringing it forward.—Mr. Whitbread gave notice, that on Monday se'ennight, he should submit a motion to the house, relative to the State of the Nation. The hon. gent. also gave notice, that on Friday, he should move for the revival of one or two of the bills for the education and relief of the Poor.—Mr. Croker wished to know from the noble lord opposite, who had in the debate of the preceding night, adverted to the subject of Tithes in Ireland, whether it was his intention to bring forward any measure on that subject this session? The hon. member was proceeding to comment on the importance of the question to Ireland, when he was reminded by the Speaker, of his being not in order.—Lord Howick replied, that there had been plans for the amelioration of the Tithes system in Ireland, under the consideration of his Majesty's late ministers, and that it was their intention as soon as they could bring any one to maturity, to submit it to parliament. He had alluded to the subject on the preceding evening only to recommend it to the most serious attention of his majesty's ministers. He did not mean to take up the question this session, but might in a future session, though for every reason he thought it better that such a measure should originate with government.—Mr. Hall brought up the report of the address, which was agreed to, and the address ordered to be presented by such Members as are of his majesty's privy council—The lords commissioners' speech on opening the session was then ordered to be referred to a committee of the whole house on Monday.—lord Castlereagh brought down the following Message from the king: viz.—George R. His Majesty being desirous of conferring a signal mark of his favour and approbation on major general sir John Stuart, knight of the most honourable order of the bath, in consequence of the eminent services rendered by him in the brilliant and decisive
662
victory obtained by the troops under his command against a superior French force upon the plains of Maida, on the 4th day of July 1806, and of the valour and skill displayed by him on that occasion, recommends it to his faithful Commons to enable his majesty to make provision for securing to the said sir John Stuart a pension of 1000l. per annum for the term of his natural life. G. R." Ordered to be taken into consideration on Monday.—The usual resolutions respecting the Trial of Election petitions were then voted, and petitions were presented, complaining of the returns for Saltash, Horsham, and Great Grimsby. The first was ordered to be taken into consideration on the 14th of July, and the two others on the 16th. In answer to a question from lord Temple respecting the course proposed to be adopted concerning the Election petitions, the chancellor of the exchequer replied, that it would not be desirable to proceed with any petitions this session, which would be likely to extend to any length in the examination of their merits.

INDIA BUDGET.
Mr. Hiley Addingtonseeing his hon. friend (Mr. R. Dundas) in his place, wished to know whether it was his intention to bring forward the accounts of the East India Company this session. If so, he trusted that he would bring them forward on as early a day as possible.
Mr. R. Dundasreplied that it was certainly his intention to bring forward the accounts of the East India Company this session, and that no time should be unnecessarily lost. At the same time he begged to remind the right hon. gent. that for some years back, these accounts had been one year in arrears. It was his intention to endeavour to bring up that arrear in the present session, and the right hon. gent. must be aware that this would require some time.
Lord Howickobserved, that from the papers then upon the table it appeared, that, upon a comparison of the Revenue and Expenditure of the Company in India, there was a deficit in the latter of above two millions and a half. This was a state of things, in which any one might see that it was impossible for the company to go on, without some adequate provision to make good this deficit. It was the more necessary, as the public had been led to expect than there would be a considerable participation, derived from the East India Company's funds, in aid of the national resources. He wished to know whether the hon. gent. meant to

663
bring forward any proposition upon that subject.
Mr. R. Dundasinformed the noble lord, that it was his intention, at an early day, to propose some regulations respecting the affairs of India, which would include the point to which the noble lord had adverted. He was afraid, however, that he should not be able to bring forward the annual accounts at so early a day, as only a few of the ships had yet arrived, and it would be desirable to have the accounts stated in the most correct manner that was possible.

IRISH REVENUE BILLS.
The order of the day being read for the house going into a committee on the Irish Revenue bills, and the question being put, that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Lord Howickrose, not to oppose the motion, but simply to observe that, by the dissolution of parliament, they had been placed in this situation, that about two millions of money, raised under the Irish Revenue acts, must either not be levied at all, or must be collected on British subjects without any legal authority. Without sending the act of parliament by a balloon, or a carrying pigeon, it was out of the nature of things, even supposing it to pass both houses with the most unexampled rapidity, that it could arrive in Ireland till several days after the existing act had expired.
Mr. Roseargued that the hereditary duties to which all goods were already subject, would, even in the event of the payment of the additional revenues being resisted, which was not probable, enable the revenue officers, on the arrival of the act, still to levy the additional duties with precision.
Mr. Fosterobserved, that a similar dilemma had already twice occurred, and no bad consequences had resulted.
Sir John Newportwas glad the right hon. gent. had stated this fact. He would tell the house how the dilemma had been got the better of; it was only done by adding one illegal act to another; by informing those who refused to pay the additional duties on the goods which they had removed in the mean time, that until they paid such additional duties, they should not be allowed to land any more goods. The father-in-law of the present member for Dublin (Mr. Shaw) rather than do so had retired from business sooner than he intended; declaring that he would never submit to the allowing the Custom House officers to take from him what they were not entitled to by law. In this way the merchants in Ireland had been sur-
664
charged every year, except the year when he had the management of the Revenue of Ireland.—After some additional conversation the house went into a committee. Ordered that the report be brought up on Monday.