Sitting of 16 July 1807

MINUTES.
A new writ was ordered for the borough of Orford, in the room of lord Robert Seymour, who having been also elected for the county of Caermarthen, had made his election to serve for that county.—The speaker informed the house, that he had received a letter from Samuel Smith, esq., who, having been elected for Midhurst and Leicester, had made his election to serve for Leicester. A new writ was then ordered for Midhurst.—Mr. Hobhouse reported from the committee, to whom the resolution of the house of the 11th day of Feb. 1789, respecting the Recognizances to be entered into by any person having presented a petition to this house, complaining of an undue election, was referred; that the committee had come to the following resolution; "That, so far as the said resolution respects the notice required to be given by the petitioner to the sitting member or members, or their known agent or agents, of the time and place of the intended examination of the sufficiency of the surety or sureties to be named in any recognizance, and of the names, additions, and places of abode of such sureties, if the petitioner shall not have been able to find and serve the sitting member or his known agent or agents, and if he shall thereupon have obtained an order from the house enlarging the time for entering into his recognizance, it shall be sufficient for the petitioner to give the said notice in writing, seven days at least previous to such examination, to the clerk of the house of commons, who shall enter the same in a book to be kept for that purpose, which shall be open to the inspection of all persons concerned." Ordered, that the said resolution be printed.—Mr. C. Dundas moved, that the order of the house of the 24th of Nov. 1699, "That the chairman of the Committee for any Private bill do not sit thereupon, without a week's public notice thereof set up
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in the lobby," and which was, upon the 15th of Feb. 1700, declared to be a standing Order, be read: and the same being read, it was ordered, That a committee be appointed to take the same into consideration, for the purpose of enabling the chairman, in all cases where the house has given power to the committee, to send for persons, papers, and records, to issue an order accordingly, so that such persons, papers, and records may be had in readiness for the committee to proceed upon at the expiration of the week's notice; and that they do report the same, with their opinion thereupon, to the house.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE—COMPLAINT RESPECTING THE POOLE WRIT.
Mr. Jefferypursuant to notice, rose to call the attention of the house to a circumstance, which was not only a violation of law, but a high breach of the privileges of that house. On the 29th of April, the writs were issued, as he understood, for the general election, and amogst the other writs, one for the election of Burgesses to serve in parliament for the town and county of the town of Poole. He had been informed by the messenger of the great seal, that this writ had been delivered immediately by him to Mr. Jonathan Brundrett, chief clerk to Mr. Lowten, in the Temple, to be sent to the sheriff of Poole. When he called upon Mr. Lowten, to enquire whether the writ had been sent, he was informed, that it had been sent three hours before; and on asking to whom the writ had been sent, he received a rude answer declining to state to whom, and accompanied with an observation, that it had been sent down in opposition to himself. It was not till the 20th of May that the sheriff gaveno tice, that the election would be held on the 25th of May, and in consequence, sir Richard Bickerton, one of the lords of the admiralty, and himself, who had gone down to Poole when the writs were issued, expecting that the election would come on immediately, with several of the electors of that city, were detained there three weeks to their great inconvenience. He should not detain the house by dwelling upon the motives of the conduct of which he complained, but should only state, that as parties ran high in the town, and the numbers were nearly balanced, the delay had been resorted to, in order to give an opportunity to one person, who would not have been of age to vote till the 22d of May, time to attain the proper age to vote. The consequence was a special return with respect to the two other

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candidates; he having been the only person actually returned. He should not trouble the house farther at present, on the subject, than by moving, that Mr. Stainforth, messenger of the great seal, who was attending in the lobby, should be called to the bar, to be examined relative to the business.
Mr. Creeveywished to know what breach of privilege the hon. member complained of.
The Speakersaid, it was his duty to answer that question. Undoubtedly, any person who detained a writ issued for the election of a member of that house, was guilty of a high crime and misdemeanour, the highest which that house knew, because such conduct had the effect of keeping the representatives of the people,who ought to be in the house, for the time, out of it.
Mr. Stainforthwas then brought to the bar, and stated, that he had received the writ for Poole a little after twelve o'clock, on the 30th of April, and delivered it within less than two hours after to Mr. Brundrett, chief clerk of Mr. Lowten, for the purpose of being forwarded with all possible expedition to the sheriff of Poole. Mr. Stainforth then withdrew, and Mr. T. Lowten and Mr. Jonathan Brundrett were ordered to attend the house to-morrow.

VOLUNTEERS.
Sir Thomas Turtonin rising to make his motion, in pursuance of his notice, for a return of the effective strength of the Volunteers, felt it impossible not to participate in the satisfaction of the house and of the public, that a noble lord, whom he did not then see in his place, was to-morrow to bring forward a proposition in which this part of the national force would be adequately provided for. There was a return similar to that he wished to call for before the house, presented in December last, but as he knew that it was inaccurate with respect to three or four regiments, he was sorry that it could not be seen from it how far it was to be depended on. It was peculiarly desirable, in the present situation of the country, to know what was the effective strength of its Volunteer force; as it was not to be concealed that that force had greatly decreased in consequence of the discouragements which it had met with. He was convinced, however, that the Volunteers were sound at heart, and that, with a little encouragement, they would again fall into their ranks; and, in the present state of the country, they should look to the Volunteers principally for the defence of the country. He should conclude by moving,
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that there be laid before the house a return of the effective strength of the Volunteer force of Great Britain and Ireland, distinguishing cavalry from infantry, to the latest period to which the same can be made out.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad no objection to the motion, as he thought that every information on this subject should be afforded to the house. But he apprehended that the hon. baronet would be disappointed, if he expected more accurate information in this return than in that which had been laid on the table in December last. The inspecting field-officers had then been done away, and the returns were made by the commanding officers of the corps, without any check on the part of government. These inspecting field-officers had been only just appointed; and, though they might have made returns of a few corps, the great mass of the returns, which by the law were to be made every three months, would still rest on the same authority as the returns to which the hon. bart. had alluded.
Mr. Shaw Lefevre contended, that if any relaxation had taken place in the zeal of the Volunteers, it was because there did not appear the same occasion for their services, and that, when the enemy should again appear on the coast, they would again rally round their standards. If the Volunteers had been worked, as formerly, he was sure their numbers would have diminished. The measures of the late administration respecting them, he insisted, were wise. He felt warm on this subject, because he had commanded Volunteer corps ever since 1794, and he knew them to be attached to their sovereign and the constitution. Whilst he had a limb to stand upon, he should be found at his post, and he was persuaded the Volunteers would be found to adhere steadily to the principles upon which they associated.
Sir T. Turtonreplied, and contended that such discouraging language as "armed democracy," "depositaries of panic," &c. which had been applied to them in parliament, had principally tended to diminish the numbers of the Volunteers. It was impossible for them, having the feelings of men, to be insensible to terms of reproach, and it required all the influence of their officers to keep them from shewing their sense of them by withdrawing from their corps. He had raised the corps he now commanded, in 1794, and had the satisfaction to state, that whatever provocation might have been given to the Volunteers, his corps had not been in-

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fluenced by it.—The motion was then agreed to.

EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S BONDS BILL.
Mr. Grantmoved the order of the day, for the second reading of the East-India Company's Bonds bill, On the question being put,
Mr. Creeveyrose, not to negative the second reading of this bill, but to move that the second reading of it be put off, till the East-India accounts now printing, should be in the hands of members. The house was not in possession of any documents to prove the expediency of agreeing to such a measure. This was the first instance in which that house had been called upon to pass such a measure, without previous enquiry into the grounds upon which it was founded, by having the petition referred to a committee of the house to examine into its allegations. There were at present two budgets in arrear, and the last accounts of the India company, to which the house could resort for information, shewed the affairs of the company to be in a ruinous state. By these accounts it appeared, that there was an excess of above two millions in the company's foreign expenditure over their revenue, and a loss of 2,200,000 l. in their trade at home. Under these circumstances, and whilst the company had a debt of seventeen millions at home, payable at the option of the holders, he did not think that parliament would do right to pass this bill without enquiring what means the company had of discharging, as well their former debt, as this new incumbrance. He should therefore, notwithstanding the prospect held out by the hon. director opposite, of a permanent peace, and consequent prosperity of the affairs of the company, move as an amendment, that the bill be read a second time on this day fortnight.
Mr. Grantreplied, that though the hon. member might be actuated by a desire to promote the public interest, he took the wrong course in his speech, for his arguments were founded in ignorance, not in his knowledge of the subject. The sole and simple reason for bringing forward the bill before the India accounts could be brought under the consideration of the house was, that if that course had not been taken, the bill could not be passed this session. The hon. member was aware how difficult it was to prepare the India accounts, so as that they could be presented in a form to be intelligible to the members
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of that house. He was sorry to find an hon. gent. who had filled the situation lately held by that hon. member, so ignorant of the affairs of the company as to make the assertions he had done. It was true that by the accounts on the table there appeared a deficit at home of above 2,200,000 l. which the hon. member had stated to be the amount of the company's loss on their trade, where as it had arisen from the quantity of stores and other articles which were necessarily sent out in consequence of the situation in which the company's settlements were placed. By the plan adopted in 1802 for the liquidation of the company's debt, it had been recommended to send out from Europe considerable quantities of bullion, in order to avoid the necessity of making loans on improvident terms in India. This had been done in 1803, 4, and 5; but the sums and bullion so sent had been applied to the purposes of the wars that then existed, so that no reduction of the debt had taken place. So also, when the system in India had been changed by marquis Cornwallis, considerable sums had been sent out, not for commercial purposes, but for the general expenditure of the presidencies in India. Under these circumstances, the company, though by law authorized to increase their funded stock, had applied to parliament for authority to issue bonds, and this was a much better course for the public, because, if the stock of the company should not be worth any thing, it would be irretrievable to the holders, whereas the bonds might or might not be taken at the option of the individuals who might speculate in such securities. What he had said with respect to the prospect of peace, was founded on the report made by the governor-general, and he was persuaded that the jealousies of the native powers had been extinguished by the conciliating disposition manifested towards them by our government. On all these grounds, he should vote that the bill be now read a second time.
Lord Folkestonedefended the statement of his hon. friend, as to the situation of the East-India company's affairs, and contended for the propriety of deferring the discussion, till the papers now printing should be in the hands of the members. He protested against the implied guarantees that would be given to the security of the bonds, without sufficient investigation of the state of the company's affairs. To issue the bonds without such a guarantee, would be to delude the public.
Lord Howickinsisted upon the propriety of waiting till the documents now printing should be before the house. The importance and extent of the measure to be proposed to-morrow, for the defence of the country, would involve details, which would, in all probability, keep parliament sitting for so long a time, as to allow full opportunity to pass this measure after ample discussion. The state of the East-India company was such, that if the house could not in this session, go into a particular investigation of the company's affairs, it ought at least to pledge itself by a resolution to do so in the next. He expatiated on the declining state of the company's investments and sales; on the increased dangers menacing our Indian possessions from the increased power of Bonaparte, whose hostile designs against our Indian empire were well known. He insisted also on the instability of the peace with the native powers in India. He was of opinion, that those who should advance money on the credit of these bonds would have a claim upon the public, if the company should prove unable to discharge them. [Certainly not, said Mr. Grant,] That was, in his opinion, at least doubtful. If the company could raise the money on its own credit, why did it come to parliament? If the sanction of parliament was necessary, it was in order to give the bonds a credit, which implied a sanction, amounting virtually to a guarantee.
Mr. R. Dundasdefended the raising of money upon bonds, in preference to the augmentation of the company's capital, which the company was already by law entitled to make. With respect to the urgency of passing the bill soon, he believed it was strictly a private bill, and must of course be reported this day se'nnight, or fall to the ground. This, however, the house might dispense with. With respect to the state of the company's affairs, though expensive wars had brought on heavy charges, the Indian empire was as little ruined by those heavy charges, as this country was by the heavy wars it had to sustain in Europe. Neither did the failure of commercial speculations in one or two years imply absolute ruin. The West-India merchants also were under difficulties: but nobody thought of saying they were in danger of being ruined. He denied that the passing of this bill amounted to a guarantee on the part of parliament. It might as well be argued, that parliament would
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be guarantee to the increase of the capital which the company had already power to make by act of parliament.
Dr. Laurenceas a member of parliament, ignorant on this subject, and entitled to information, contended, that no farther proceedings should be had on this measure, without full inspection of such documents as could be had. There would be abundant time for this. It was generally understood that the session could not be terminated in less than five weeks.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought it strange, that, as this measure had been agreed to by the late board of controul, it should now be opposed by the secretary to that board (Mr. Creevey). He denied that parliament, in passing the bill, guaranteed the bonds. The present high price of the company's stock, 180 per cent., was a sufficient proof of the company's credit, and the stability of its funds, without the aid of parliament. The present discussion was, at least, a sufficient notice that parliament gave no sanction. The parliament was never supposed to sanction the West-India dock company, or any other private speculating company, when an act was passed, enabling such company to increase its capital. It was allowed on all hands, that the company wanted relief, and this was the best mode of granting that relief.
Sir A. Wellesleysupported the measure, and maintained the propriety of proceeding upon it without delay. The company's investments had been fully attended to. The difficulties arose from the state of the continental market, goods to the amount of 7,000,000 l. being on hand. The territorial revenue in India, afforded a surplus of 1,000,000 l. above the expenditure. The late wars had rendered our empire more secure against any attempt from the native powers.
Lord Morpethrecommended a minute investigation of the company's affairs, with a view to a complete settlement. Temporary arrangements were indeterminate and unsatisfactory.
Mr. Lambthought parliament bound to investigate the solvency of the parties to whom it granted power to raise money, and of course responsible in the event of these parties proving insolvent.—The question being put, a division took place,

For reading the bill a 2d time now,

35

Against it

10

The bill was accordingly read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday.