Sitting of 26 January 1807

OAK BARK BILL.
On the motion of lord Temple, that the Oak Bark bill be read a second time,
Mr. W. Herbertsaid, he was sorry to oppose any measure proposed by his noble friend, but could not agree to the bill in its present form. If the act of James I. was to be revised, he thought that all the penalties imposed by that statute should be repealed. It appeared to him to be an act of injustice to repeal the clause that was the object of this bill, and to leave the rest of the penalties imposed by that measure in force. The repeal of the whole act was necessary to the comfort of the different classes of tradesmen, whose interests were concerned, and it would not be prejudicial to the public. He begged to suggest to his noble friend the propriety of putting off the second reading of the bill, and of appointing in the mean time a committee to consider of the propriety of the revision, or repeal of the whole act.
Mr. Wilberforce,from the letters which he had received from different parts of the country, could state, that the measure before the house, was one which had excited a considerable and lively sensation in the country. He agreed in the suggestion that had been so ably urged by the hon. gent., for the appointment of a committee to consider of the act, before which all the parties interested might be fully heard.
Lord Templewished to say a few words just to acquit himself of the charge of precipitation in bringing forward this measure. The clause of the act which it was designed to repeal, had lain dormant, and had never been acted upon, till, in the course of last sessions, prosecutions had been instituted for the receiving of penalties incurred under it. He had thought it necessary in that instance to bring forward a bill to suspend these prosecutions, and had then given notice of his intention to produce the present measure to the house early in this session. But, whatever his feeling of the necessity of the measure might be, he was alive to the paramount necessity of procuring every possible help to enable the house to judge upon the question, and was therefore ready, with the permission of the house, to put off the second reading of the bill to this day fortnight, under an understanding, that if the committee should not report in the intermediate time, the second reading should then be deferred to a more distant day.
Mr. Rosethought that the committee could not report in a fortnight, nor, possibly, in two months. He was of opinion, that the repeal ought to extend to a great part of the act of James, though not to the whole of its provisions.
Mr. Sheridanthought it would be a great hardship to tanners, if this clause were to be repealed, whilst the penalties under the other provisions of the act were to be continued. As the suspension act of last session was to be in force only till 40 days after the commencement of the present session, he submitted to his noble friend whether it would not be better that the bill should go into a committee in order to prevent the renewal of the prosecutions on the expiration of the suspension bill.
Mr. Corryhighly approved of the proposal of the noble lord to put off the second reading of the bill, only from time to time, and not for any long period at once. He

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was of opinion, that the committee might report in a short space of time.
Mr. Whitbreadobserved, that the measure had excited great interest in the country, and the manner in which his noble friend had conducted himself with respect to it, would prove satisfactory to the country. He thought that the committee would be able to report in a short time, because the whole of the clauses of the old act were inapplicable to the present time; and trusted that the second reading would not be deferred for any considerable time.
Mr. Grattanwas happy to find that the particular clause in the act of James was to be repealed. When the present bill had been brought forward, it bad excited great alarm amongst the tanners of Dublin, who had done him the honour to send a deputation to him on the subject. If this particular clause were not to be repealed, it would be necessary to have some Irish tanners examined before the committee, which would require time.—The second reading of the bill was put off to Monday se'n night.

CONDUCT OF LORD WELLESLEY.
Lord Folkestone,in submitting the motion of which he had given notice to the house, begged to state the reasons upon which he founded that motion. Certain proceedings had been instituted in the last parliament, founded on papers that had been laid before the house, preparatory to the impeachment of marquis Wellesley; which proceedings had fallen to the ground by the dissolution of parliament. The gentleman who had instituted these proceedings, was not at present a member, though he was a petitioner to that house, with confident hopes of being seated in it. The object of his motion was, that the papers relating to the Oude Charge should be reprinted, and be laid on the table of the house as early as possible, as considerable delay had taken place last session on this head. This would be a convenience to all parties. When sufficient time should be allowed for the consideration of the papers, after they should be on the table, if the gentleman who had originally brought the subject before the house, should not be a member, he should certainly bring forward the business himself. He thought it right, however, to state, that he did not mean to push the question to an impeachment. Reserving himself to reply to any objections that should be made to his motion, he moved, "That the papers laid before the
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house in the last session of the last parliament numbered 3, with its six supplements, and also the papers numbered 4 and 5, be re-printed for the use the house."
Lord Howicksaid, that as he now clearly understood that the noble lord moved for the papers, for the purpose of grounding some motion which he intended to bring before the house with all convenient expedition, he could have no objection to the motion. It must be the desire of the house that the noble lord should persevere in the business he had undertaken. He should, however, be glad that the noble lord would give the house some general idea of the line he meant to pursue upon the documents for which he moved, and inform the house whether he meant to bring forward any motion on the Mahratta and Carnatic papers?
Lord Folkestonethought it hardly fair to expect that he should, in this early stage of his proceeding, be called upon to state precisely the course which he might deem it adviseable to pursue. But yet he was willing to give all the information in his power, wishing it however to be understood, that he would not hold himself bound by what he might now say. His purpose was, as far as his mind was made up, to move a resolution or resolutions, expressive of the opinion of the house as to the conduct of lord Wellesley relative to the nabob of Oude; but without moving for any impeachment or criminal proceeding. With respect to the other charges against that noble lord, he felt a difficulty in answering the question of the noble secretary of state, because he had devoted much less of his attention to them than to that to which his motion referred. As to the charge which related to the Carnatic, a right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) stood pledged to support it, if taken up by any other person; and the opportunity of redeeming his pledge would, he rather thought, be afforded him. Upon the subject of the Mahratta papers, he was disposed to think that they unfolded some transactions which would form good ground for a charge. But upon this point he had formed no resolution, nor would he at present pledge himself to any other than the Oude charge.
Sir John Anstrutherthought it would be extremely satisfactory to the house, if the noble lord could answer more decidedly as to the course he meant to pursue, should the papers be granted; he also wished to

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know, how soon he proposed to make the motion that was to be grounded on the production of these papers,
Lord Folkestonefound his difficulty increased instead of diminished, by his readiness to give the noble lord every explanation that was in his power upon the subject. All that he would pledge himself to was the Oude charge, and, he supposed, that, about a month or 5 weeks after the printing of the papers he should be ready to make his motion. The Mahratta and Carnatic questions floated at present but loosely in his mind, and he was not Prepared to say how he should act upon them.
Sir John Anstrutherdeclared himself to be perfectly satisfied with this explanation, and allowed that the noble lord had answered with great fairness and candour every thing which could be expected for him to answer.
Mr. Whitshed Keeneconsidered, that it was for the honour and dignity of the house that the proceedings of the last session should not now be dropped.
Mr. Bankeswished for some further explanation. He considered the noble lord as acting as a substitute for Mr. Paull. It that gentleman should succeed in his petition, (how probable or desireable such an event would be he should not say), then the impeachment was not to go on; should he fail, then there were only to be resolutions of the house. He should always disapprove of impeachments for Indian offences, seeing that there was a competent jurisdiction appointed to try them by the act of 1784.
Mr. Sheridansaid, that the motion had his approbation, and he hoped that the noble lord would not consider his having declined to notice the allusion which he had thought proper to make to him as the effect of any disrespectful inattention. The noble lord, in announcing his conditional notice, had expressed his hopes, that the original mover of these papers would succeed in his petition. ["No," said lord Folkestone, "I stated that such was the hope of Mr. Paull."] Oh! that Mr. Paull had such hopes, (continued Mr. Sheridan,) was extremely probable. He was, no doubt, a very active canvasser and a sanguine politician; but he must excuse him (Mr. S.), if he declined to sympathize in his hopes. But, as to the noble lord, he announced hip resolution to pursue a different course from that followed by his
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hon. friend Mr. Paull. Then, of course, he disapproved of his hon. friend's mode of proceeding. It was rather surprising that the noble lord did not, in the course of the last, or preceding sessions, advise his hon. friend to abandon that mode. It was not quite so friendly not to have given him a hint. But, a word or two as to the pledge to which the noble lord had alluded. If that noble lord had been present, he might have heard him two or three times, state distinctly to the house, the reasons which had produced the delay he complained of, and also the grounds upon which he had brought forward this question. He, however, utterly denied that he had ever forfeited the slightest pledge on this business, He defied any man even to catch him tripping. All that he ever said, and the grounds upon which he had acted, he was ready to repeat again and again, and upon that repetition he would confidently rest for the justification of his conduct. Whenever that conduct was fairly represented and clearly understood, he would have no fear of censure. He was now prepared to declare, that if any other person, whoever that person might be, should bring forward the Carnatic question, he would most distinctly pledge himself to give that person his most zealous, active and cordial assistance; and to exert as much of his humble ability in support of the motion, as if it had been actually brought forward by himself.
Lord Folkestonereplied, that he would not enter into a controversy with the right hon. gent. upon the subject of his former pledges. But he recollected very accurately that the right hon. gent. did promise to bring this question of the Carnatic before the house. As to the grounds upon which he had been induced to abandon that question, he really was not apprized of them. He had heard something of the right hon. gent.'s unwillingness to excite unpleasant sensations among his colleagues in office—that is, in plain English, that he was not willing to lose his place. The noble lord was, however, glad to hear the right hon. gent.'s fresh pledge this evening: for his strenuous and sincere assistance, wherever he would be strenuous and sincere, would, no doubt, be a most important acquisition indeed. The noble lord repelled the idea, that he was the substitute of Mr. Paull or of any man. He was actuated solely by a sense of duty, and even the friends of lord Wellesley

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ought to be obliged to him for the course he was about to take, as it would afford them an opportunity of vindicating his character, as well as the character of the country, which was stained by the acts imputed to him. If these imputations should prove to be unjust, he declared that he should feel the highest satisfaction, for he had no personal prejudice whatever against lord Wellesley. As to the course he meant to pursue, it would be open to any other member to propose a different one, if he thought proper, and this course would not at all interfere with those who wished to go the length of impeachment.
Mr. Sheridanrose again, and observed with some warmth, that no doubt the noble lord wished to have his public conduct ascribed to proper motives, and if he expected to have credit given him for such motives, he should not be so forward to impute improper motives to others. With regard to the motive which the noble lord had thought proper to attribute to him, he would ask that noble lord to state in what part of his public conduct he had ever seen any thing to justify the imputation he had attempted to fix upon him, to shew that he would be induced to abandon his principles to a love of place; or to sustain against him any charge of inconsistency. If the noble lord had had a correct recollection of the proceedings of that house, the noble lord would have known that he did, two years before the present ministry came into place, state the grounds upon which he was induced to decline bringing forward the Carnatic question, at the same time, pledging himself to support any person who should bring it forward.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, he thought the noble lord entitled to his thanks, and also to the thanks of the friends of marquis Wellesley, and that they must be satisfied with the very candid manner in which he had brought forward the present motion. He could not, however, agree in opinion with the hon. gent. (Mr. Bankes), that any question of this kind should be referred to the board of Indian Judicature, for he thought it beyond the power of any individual to bring any delinquent to punishment before it. He was, therefore, glad the noble lord had brought forward the present motion.
Mr. Wellesley Polethanked the noble lord for the manner in which he had brought forward the business, and for the civility with which he had treated his noble relative. The dignity of parliament re-
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quired, that this business should not lie dormant. Parliament, however, had taken no proceedings on this charge, although it had been circulated with much industry throughout the country. It was equally desirable for the house and his noble relation, that the business should be proceeded with. He had given notice of his intention, as soon as the noble lord's motion should be disposed of, to move for the remaining documents, in order that the whole case might be before the house. Every enquiry into the conduct of marquis Wellesley, had always had his hearty concurrence, and he was anxious that every paper which his majesty's ministers could produce, consistently with the public interest, should be laid before the house; but in saying this, he did not presume to judge what might be the decision of the house. As to the Carnatic question, he wished to ask the right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan), what preference he meant to give his noble relation, because, on a former occasion, alluding to this question, that right hon. gent. had stated, that the Madras government was criminal, the board of controul criminal, and above all, the court of directors were highly criminal.
Mr. Sheridan,in explanation, said, the hon. gent. had stated his expressions very correctly. When he had first given notice of a motion tending to criminate the Madras government, and lord Wellesley by implication, an hon. gent. had moved for an immense volume of papers, by way of vindication; the effect of which was, to prove lord Wellesley infinitely more culpable than he had thought, the board of controul more culpable than lord Wellesley, and the court of directors more culpable than all. He had said, that the transaction involved great criminality in the Madras government, and particularly lord Clive; in the Bengal government, and lord Wellesley as the head of that government, in the board of controul, and above all, in the court of directors. It was, therefore, very true, that if the Madras government was not guilty in good company, at least it was guilty in very powerful company.
Mr. R. Thorntonsaid, he had never been of opinion that the criminality that might be found to attach to lord Wellesley's conduct would amount to sufficient ground for impeachment. But he thought it necessary, for the honour of the country, that the noble lord's conduct should be enquired into;

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and the enquiry having been once instituted, he thought it for the dignity of the house that it should not be suffered to fall to the ground. He thought the noble lord intitled to thanks for coming forward with this motion. With regard to the Carnatic question, he was glad it was to be brought forward, in order to shew that the directors were not the most criminal of all; to shew that they had borne up manfully against the difficulties they had to encounter, and had done their duty in spite of all opposition.—The papers were then ordered to be re-printed. On the motion of Mr. W. Pole, a similar order was made with respect to the other papers connected with the Oude charge.