Sitting of 12 January 1807

CHARGES AGAINST MR. CAWTHORNE.
General Porter rose to postpone until Wednesday se'nnight the motion of which he had given notice for Wednesday next, on the subject of colonel Cawthorne's Court Martial. This postponement the hon. officer stated to be necessary, as many members could not, in consequence of the quarter sessions, conveniently attend the discussion of this question sooner.
Mr. Cawthorneexpressed his wish that the hon. general would make up his mind and determine filially on the time when he was to bring forward his motion. The house would be aware how disagreeable must be the state of suspence in which he

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was placed by having the motion put off from time to time. Nearly ten days had already elapsed since the hon. general had given his notice, and it was not without surprise, therefore, that he found him now proposing further delay.
General Portersaid, that his only object in proposing the delay was, in order to insure a full attendance, which he deemed highly desirable upon this occasion, and which could not be looked for if the discussions were to occur while the quarter-sessions were pending.
Mr. Cawthornedeclared that he was as anxious as any man, that the discussion of the case alluded to should have as full an attendance as possible; for without any reference to himself, he thought it involved a question of very great moment. Putting entirely out of view the consideration of holding any member of that house, or any persons whatever whose character was implicated, one moment more than was indispensably necessary in a state of suspence, he submitted to the candour and judgement of the house, whether there was not something in the course of this proceeding which justified complaint. The hon. gent. gave notice of this proceeding, in the first instance, in a way certainly very unusual, at a time when the members were very little likely to have any knowledge of it, namely, after the debate had closed on Tuesday morning, and after almost all the members had retired. Not a word of it appeared in the morning papers, in which accounts of the proceedings of that house generally appeared: and if it were not for some gentlemen who happened to perceive the insertion of this notice in the book upon the table, the thing would have been very little known indeed.
General Porterrepeated the grounds which induced him to postpone his motion; adding, that he would certainly bring forward the motion upon Wednesday se'nnight.

CONDUCT OF LORD WELLESLEY.
Lord Folkestone gave notice of his intention to move, on that day fortnight, for the re-printing of certain papers which had been printed last session, relative to the Oude charge exhibited against marquis Wellesley.
Lord Howickexpressed a wish to know from the noble lord, with what view he proposed to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, and what was the nature of the measure he meant to found upon the papers to which his notice referred?
Lord Folkestonereplied, that his motion would refer to the re-printing of the several papers connected with the Oude charge; namely, numbers 3, 4, and 5. With respect to any subsequent proceeding, he believed that none was likely to be taken for some time. The house was aware that the hon. gent. (Mr. Paull) with whom this business originated was now a petitioner, and until that petition was decided, it was not intended to ground any measure upon the papers to which this notice related. But yet, to prevent any delay hereafter, it was thought expedient that those documents should be fully before the house, in order that, if the hon. gent. already alluded to should be in a situation to prosecute this important enquiry, he might be enabled to proceed at once, unimpeded by the procrastination which the printing of papers upon this subject had so often produced in the course of the last parliament; and in order also that if Mr. Paull should not be in a situation to follow up this business, he himself (lord Folkestone), or some more competent person, might be furnished with the means of proceeding upon it. The noble lord concluded with expressing a belief that he had fully replied to the enquiry of the noble secretary of state, and expressed a readiness to afford any further information in his power upon the subject.
Lord Howickapprehended that the reasons stated by the noble lord could not be considered a sufficient parliamentary ground for the proposition he professed to have in view. It did indeed appear to him quite without precedent to make a motion for the production and printing of certain papers upon which the mover did not state that any direct proceeding was to be instituted, but merely upon the chance that another gentleman not a member of that house, might ground some proceeding upon them. This, however, he felt was not the proper time to argue the question; but he could not help observing, that the course proposed must be attended with extreme hardship to the party concerned in the case to which the notice referred. For that house was to be called on to promote the circulation of the most severe attacks upon the character of the noble person a1luded to. The effects of such publications were easily to be estimated, and he would submit whether they could he in fairness acceded to, without any precise statement that a parliamentary measure would be founded upon them, or without any defi

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nition of the statement of such measures. The noble mover did not say that any farther parliamentary proceeding would be taken upon those papers; but merely that it might; and really he could not think that a sufficient ground for the noble lord's intended motion.
Lord Folkestonewas aware that this was not the proper time for any argument upon the subject; but he would, with the leave of the house, make a further reply to the noble secretary of state. The object of the motion of which he had given notice, could not be fairly supposed to involve any harshness towards lord Wellesley, as the noble secretary of state stated, any farther than as it professed to assist and facilitate the enquiry respecting that noble lord's conduct. But the noble secretary of state seemed to imagine, that there was some probability the enquiry might be relinquished, and that therefore the documents his motion would relate to, might not be necessary. Of this, however, he could assure the noble secretary, that the enquiry would certainly be persisted in; for if no other person should offer, he pledged himself, if a member of parliament, to follow it up. The papers he had described were, the noble lord observed, laid before the house last session, and therefore there could be no just objection to their being re printed, particularly as the enquiry would be proceeded in. Indeed, if the hon. gent. who originally brought it forward should not be enabled from his presence in that house to prosecute it, he would, rather than let it drop, take it up himself. Those papers would not, therefore, be suffered to lie dormant on the table. It was for no such purpose that he intended to move for them. They were, indeed, already in the hands of the greater part of the members, and in general circulation; but in order to satisfy the forms of the house, it was necessary to have them again laid on the table, and re-printed, before any parliamentary proceeding could be founded upon them. Whether his motion for this purpose should be agreed to or not, he could not guess. He did not indeed anticipate the opposition manifested by the noble secretary. But whether that opposition should be persisted in or not, whatever the fate of his motion might be, that motion would certainly be made, and the enquiry to which it related as certainly prosecuted.

OAK BARK BILL.
Lord Folkestonepre-
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sented a petition from the Tanners of London against the Oak Bark bill.—Upon the motion being made for its lying on the table,
Lord Templestated, that he had, upon the subject of this petition, taken occasion to communicate, as his duty presented to him, with the tanners of London, among whom he found some considerable alarm prevailed, relative to the bill before the house. But the result of this communication served fully to convince his mind, that that alarm was not well founded. Such indeed was his opinion, even before the conference took place. But still he felt it not only his duty, but his inclination, to consult any class of men interested in a question of this nature; to consider their opinions, to examine their objections, and even to pay attention to their prejudices. He would therefore propose to allow full time for enquiring farther upon this subject, in order that the grounds upon which the petitioners rested their objections to the bill before the house might be amply investigated. For that purpose he would move, that the second reading of the bill should be postponed till this day fortnight. In the interim the case might be diligently examined; and as the Oak Bark trade was suspended, at least until May, no injury could result from the proposed delay, to those concerned for the carrying of the bill.—The petition was ordered to lie on the table, and lord Temple's motion for the second reading of the bill on this day fortnight was agreed to.

IRISH ELECTION BILL.
Sir John Newport rose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill for amending the act of the 42d of his present majesty, for regulating the trial of contested elections in Ireland. The right hon. baronet observed, that there were several provisions in this act which he proposed to alter, and which were of such a nature as the house must feel admitted of no delay that could be consistently avoided in passing the bill which he had felt it his duty to bring forward. There were some points in the act he proposed to amend, which he thought it right to mention to the house, as proofs of the necessity that existed for such amendment. In the act referred to, there was a provision for swearing the commissioners appointed in Ireland to examine evidence, &c upon the subject of election petitions; but strange as it might seem, there was no provision for swearing the clerks who acted

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under such commission. This omission, which he meant to supply, was the more extraordinary, as the whole of the proceedings depended on the accuracy of these clerks, upon whose written statement of the evidence taken before them, the committees of that house were to ground their decisions; therefore such clerks might have it in their power, by the suppression, or substitution of a single word, to defeat the whole proceedings upon an election petition. Another point in the act he proposed to amend was this: according to that act, no man could be a member of a commission to enquire into the merits of any election at which he had voted. But this prohibition he proposed to extend to those also who were entitled to vote at such election: and that he thought necessary to answer the object of the former provision; for, as the law stood, a man entitled to vote had only to decline voting, in order to qualify himself to become a commissioner, as was often the case in consequence of compromise with some of the candidates. Thus the spirit of the law was evaded. But this evasion was not confined to the commissioners; it extended also to the clerks, and therefore to them also he should extend the proposed prohibition. There was another new provision which he thought it necessary to introduce into the bill he should have the honour of submitting to the house, the object of which would be to remove doubts existing as to the power of a committee of that house to call for the production of any books or other documents which might have been laid before the commission in Ireland. Another amendment he had to propose, would relate to the expence of clerks. At present they were allowed at the rate of sixpence for every 72 words, which gave them an interest in protracting the enquiry; and it had happened that such protraction had extended so far, that although the receipt of the commissioners, who were barristers, did not exceed 200 l., that of the clerks amounted to no less than 800 l. But it was his intention to reduce the allowance to the clerks from 6d. to 3d. for every 72 words, which would of course reduce their interest in the protraction of the proceedings. The last point of the proposed change the right hon. baronet stated to be the natural result of a case which had occurred in Ireland, where between 3 and 400 voters, forming almost the whole of those who had polled at the election, had
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been objected to, and of course taken to attend the commission at a considerable expence to the party interested, although not more than 50 or 60 of those votes had ever been enquired into at all. The remedy he should propose for this evil would be, that when a party objected to any voters, the specific grounds of the objection shall be stated, and unless such objection be sustained by evidence, it shall be declared frivolous and vexatious by the commission, and the party advancing such frivolous and vexatious objection obliged to pay the expence incurred in consequence by his opponent. This provision, he believed, would serve to diminish, if not to remove, an evil too often practised, and which the spirit of litigation only could prompt men to inflict upon their adversaries.—Leave was given to bring in the bill.

MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS OF THE COUNTRY.
Lord Castlereagh, in pursuance of the notice which he had given on a former day, rose to submit his motions to the house. It was a satisfaction to him to find that no objection was likely to be made to the production of any of the returns for which he proposed to move. It would unquestionably be more satisfactory to the house, that no argument should be produced upon the subject to which his motions referred, until the documents he was to call for should be before the house. It was, therefore, not his intention to submit any reasoning to the house upon the question in the present stage. He should confine himself to a short statement of the points upon which he desired information, and to which his several motions would go. The first point upon which he thought it necessary to call for information, was the actual state of the army, regulars, and militia. His first motion, therefore, would be for a return of the present actual effective strength of the regular army, the militia, and the artillery, up to the latest period when returns had been made, and at the end of every month from the first of March l806, inclusive. By this return the house would be enabled to judge how far the army had undergone any increase or diminution of its effective strength within that period. The next point upon which he proposed to move for information, was with respect to the sources, from which the supply for keeping up the strength of the army, was derived. By this return the house would be able to form some

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opinion of the sources of supply which formerly existed, to see what part of them still continued, and what part of the existing sources of supply had produced the greatest increase, as well as the policy of continuing or altering any part of them. The two motions which he meant to bring forward on these heads would put the house in possession of full information respecting the general state of the army, and the means at present existing for keeping it to its proper establishment. His two next, and indeed his only, further motions related to branches of our military force, that were collateral to the regular army, and calculated to support and keep it up; he meant the volunteers, and that other branch, which had engaged so much of the attention of the house during last session, when the general Training bill was under discussion. He proposed to move for a Return of the effective strength of the Volunteers, on the 1st of January, 1806, and also at the latest period of any returns of that force, distinguishing the period at which the last returns had been made. He felt that much information was necessary on the subject of the Volunteers; but a more seasonable opportunity would occur for calling for it, and discussing the question, when the documents he was then to move for should be before the house. The fourth head of information to which his motions referred, was the sole one that remained for him to advert to, namely, the general Training bill; because, whatever the right hon. gentleman might think of his explanation upon that head on a former night, it had proved by no means satisfactory to him, nor did he think it could be satisfactory to the house, or to the public. It did not appear from the right hon. gent.'s statement, that any steps had been taken in execution of that measure, except so far as respected the procuring lists. His last motion, therefore, should be for an abstract of the proceedings that had taken place in execution of that bill. When the information for which he proposed to move should be before the house, he should be prepared to state his opinion; and if the papers should not prove, that the state of the army was not, according to the prospects that had been held out to that house last session, more satisfactory, than, upon the general information which a person circumstanced as he was could obtain, was disposed to believe it; he should never bring himself to consent to a renewal of
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that fundamental change in the Mutiny act, which the right hon. gent. had introduced into it last session. If it should not appear that a great increase had been effected by the alteration in the amount of the army, whilst it laid the foundation of so great a diminution of its numbers, he should feel it his duty to endeavour to bring back the Mutiny act to its former provisions, and to those principles upon which the British army had been carried to such an extent of reputation and strength. The noble lord concluded with submitting his motions, which were to the following effect, to the house:—"1. That there be laid before the house, monthly returns of the amount of the effective strength of his majesty's regular troops and militia, from the 1st of March, 1806, to the 1st of January, 1807, inclusive; distinguishing cavalry, foot guards, infantry of the line, garrison and veteran battalions, foreign and local corps, German legion, West-India corps, British and Irish militia, and distinguishing those serving abroad from those serving at home.—2. A similar return of the effective strength of the artillery for the same period inclusive, distinguishing the corps serving abroad and at home.—3. A return of the number of men raised monthly for the regular army, from the 1st of Jan. 1805, to the 1st of Jan. 1807, exclusive of foreign or colonial levies, and distinguishing those raised by the additional force act, by the regular recruiting, and those that were inlisted from the militia.—4. Copies of all orders or regulations that have been issued since the last session of parliament, respecting the recruiting of the regular army.—5. An abstract of the effective strength of the volunteers on the 1st of January, 1806, distinguishing infantry and cavalry; also a like return at the latest period when any return has been made, specifying within what period such return had been made.—6. An abstract of such instructions as have been issued by his majesty's command to the lieutenants of counties, and of such proceedings as have been taken thereon in execution of the act of last session of parliament, for the general training of the population of the country."—On the question being put upon the first motion,
Mr. Secretary Windham,though he felt that no information was too much, that could be supplied to the house on this subject, was yet of opinion that there might be many points which it would not be de-

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sirable to have made known. Every gentleman was aware, that any documents which might be laid before that house, were not exclusively confined to the members, but made their way to the public, and of course to the enemy. In this view it would appear to the house that there might be points, which, however desirable it may be that the house should be informed upon, it would still be not prudent to let the knowledge of them reach the enemy. When the noble lord had read over this motion to him, it had not appeared to be liable to any serious objection. The noble lord had stated to him, that it did not differ from a motion that had been agreed to in a former year, except in this, that this motion called for the monthly returns, whilst that had been half-yearly returns. But it appeared to him at present that his motion was objectionable, inasmuch as it would expose the strength of some particular local corps to the enemy. It would be an ungracious duty for him to object to the production of the information desired, yet, however he might have himself contributed to the production of similar returns in any former period, he should not hesitate between his private wish and his sense of public duty. The noble lord might perhaps shape his motion so as not to be liable to this objection, in which case he should agree to it with cheerfulness. He could not consent to have the returns of the black colonial troops, which were employed only in the West Indies, produced in the form called for by the noble lord; but he would leave it to him to explain his own motion in such a manner, as might obviate the objection that applied to it.
Lord Castlereaghconcurred in the wisdom of the observation of the right hon. gent. that it mould not be proper to produce any documents which might give any dangerous information to the enemy. But from the manner in which this subject had been brought before parliament for the last three or four years, he thought the information he called for, necessary to the house. He had remembered, indeed, one instance, in which not only the number but the distribution of the British forces had been produced on motion. The enemy, however, could have the same information from publications countenanced in this country. He had moved only tor the gross amount of the British army, abroad and at home, and not its distribution; and this information was necessary to the house, in
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order to enable them to discover what proportion of that force was applicable to the defence of the country. If parliament took the responsibility upon itself, by the part it had acted, in changing altogether the whole military system, by its measures respecting the volunteers and the training, it was essentially necessary for them to know what force they had for the defence of the country. He certainly thought that they might get information of the gross amount of the black corps, as he did not propose to interfere with their local distribution, without giving any dangerous information to the enemy, especially as the black troops were not the only troops in the West Indies.
Mr. Secretary Windhamadmitted that the observations of the noble lord had, in a great measure, obviated his objection. He had still, however, a difficulty in stating the amount of black troops, which were exclusively employed in the West Indies. But as they were not the only corps employed, the objection did not appear to him material, and he should, therefore, not press it.
Lord Castlereaghconsented to have the black West-India regiments thrown into the gross amount of the foreign local corps.—The motion was then agreed to, as were the second, third, fourth, and fifth, without any particular or material observation.—On the question being put upon the last,
Mr. Secretary Windhambegged leave to say a few words on that occasion, which appeared to be called for, by some observations that had fallen from the noble lord in allusion to the measure to which this motion referred. The noble lord, from his experience of the additional force act, and every other gentleman, who was acquainted with the execution of such, must be aware that they embraced a great deal of civil detail, which it was impossible to precipitate. The militia lists had been used in preference to those originally pointed out by the bill. That part of the process had not been gone through, and until it had, it would have been impossible to accelerate the operation of the measure by the authority of office. All that had been foreseen by the framers of the measure, as well as that it was incapable of being executed last summer. If even there had been a necessity to put it in execution, it could not have been ready for such execution before the Spring. In the present state of the world and of the sea-

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son, it would not be very eligible to put it into operation, even if every thing was ready. The noble lord seemed anxious for co ies of the proceedings under this measure, and returns of the enrolments. But he could inform the noble lord, that that part of the process had already been gone through, and that nothing remained to be done but the apportionment, which had even already been begun. The act had left the government a discretionary power, as to its execution according to circumstances, and consequently justified fully their conduct respecting this measure. This was all he had thought necessary to say, in consequence of the observations of the noble lord, nor should he have said so much, if the noble lord had not made some allusion to a motion for military enquiry in consequence of the measures with which the house had recently been engaged, and which had been recommended by him. The noble lord might certainly have felt the necessity of such enquiry, from the consequence of those measures in which he had so large a share.—The motion was then agreed to.

ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.
On the motion of lord Grenville, the second reading of the bill for the Abolition of the Slave Trade was appointed for Friday se'nnight, for which day the lords were ordered to be summoned.
Lord Hawkesburyadverted to the two resolutions adopted by the house last session; the one declaring that the Slave Trade ought to be abolished; and the other, to address his majesty to make such communications to Foreign powers as his majesty should deem advisable, with the view of procuring the Abolition of the Slave Trade. With respect to the second of these resolutions, he thought the house ought to be informed of what had been done in pursuance of it, or whether any thing had been done. This information he conceived not only those noble lords who were hostile to the abolition, but also those who were friendly to that measure, would wish to have. There were five powers who were materially interested in the Slave Trade, namely, Portugal and the United States of America, France, Spain, and Holland; Denmark and Sweden had also some interest in the trade, but it was of a subordinate nature. With respect to Spain and Holland, he could readily conceive that there had been no means of making any communication on the subject to these powers. As to France, he did not know whether, during the late negociation with the government of that country, there was any communication upon this subject made, and this was a point upon which he thought the house ought to be informed. So also with respect to the United States of America, and Portugal, communications
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might have been made, of which the house ought to be in possession previous to the second reading of the bill. His lordship concluded by moving an address to his majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to order to be laid before the house, copies of all communications which had passed between his majesty and foreign powers respecting the Abolition of the Slave Trade, in consequence of the address of that house.
Lord Grenvillesaid, he was not aware of any material objection to the noble lord's motion. With respect to France, the fact was, that during the late negociation with the government of that country, communications on this subject did take place, to the production of which he saw no objection. As to Spain and Holland, the noble lord had justly supposed that no communications had taken place. With respect to Portugal, it was not thought expedient to make any communication on the subject during the negociation with France; and the fact was that none had since been made. With respect to the United States of America, communications had certainly passed during the negociation between the plenipotentiaríes of this country and the United States; and this subject actually formed one of the articles of the treaty which had been signed by those plenipotentiaries. The only difficulty he had in acceding to the noble lord's motion was, that this article could not be produced, as it was well known that a treaty signed by plenipotentiaries could not regularly be laid before parliament until ratified by the respective governments.—The motion was then agreed to.