Sitting of 26 February 1807

MINUTES.
This day a ballot took place for a committee to try and determine the merits of the petition complaining of an undue election for Malmsbury, and the following members were chosen: R. Fer–guson, lord Mahon, James Dawkins, T. P. Symmonds, W. Wingfield, M. P. An–drews, S. Soddington, R. Morris, H. Swann, W. Jacob, viscount Newark, J. Buller, T. Stanley; nominees, viscount Marsham, H. Joddrell, esq.—Sir E.Knatchbull stated, that some circumstances had occurred which had induced him to abandon the notice he had given for that day, relative to the conduct of a certain witness before the Sand–wich road committee. The hon. baronet took occasion to disclaim any other mo–tive in the proceeding than that of a desire to maintain the diguity and character of that house. At the same time that he made this statement, he could not suppose that any member would be inclined to suspect him of being actuated by any other view.

MR. PAULL'S PETITION RESPECTING THE WESTMINSTER ELECTION.
Lord Folkestonecalled the particular attention of the house to a petition which he held in his hand from James Paull, esq. the petitioning candidate for Westminster. The noble lord stated, that the petitioner com–plained of a breach of the standing order of that house which regarded witnesses, and requested that it might be read. It declares, "That if it shall appear that any person hath been tampering with any witness, in respect of his evidence to be given to this house, or any committee thereof, or directly or indirectly hath endeavoured to deter or hinder any person from appearing, or giving evidence, the same is declared to be high crime and misdemeanour; and this house will proceed with the utmost severity against such of fender."—The noble lord then presented the following Petition, which was read by he clerk at the table:
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"To the honourable the commons of the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in Parliament assembled: The humble petition of James Paull, esq. one of the candidates to represent the city of Westminster at the last elec–tion for members of Parliament to serve for the said city,
"Sheweth, That at the said election the right hon. R. B. Sheridan was returned a member to serve in parliament for the said city. That your petitioner presented a pe–tion to this hon. house, against the return of the said R. B. Sheridan, charging him, among other things, with having procured the same by means of undue and illega influence, by threats and menaces, and by divers acts of bribery and corruption. That the said petition was appointed to be taken into consideration on the 24th of this instant month of February. That this honourable house thought fit, at the instance of the said R. B. Sheridan, to postpone the consideration of the said petition until the 14th of April now next ensuing. That your petitioner has lately discovered that the said R. B. Sheridan, in defiance of the standing orders of this house, and to the ma–nifest subversion of every principle of justice, has, by divers nefarious ways and means, tampered with and endeavoured to corrupt, and has attempted to persuade and to de–ter and hinder, certain persons whom your petitioner intended and still intends to ex–amine, and who are and will be material witnesses upon the trial of the said peti–tion, from appearing on the day when the said petition shall be heard, and from gi–ving their unbiassed, or any, testimony on behalf of your petitioner, and against the said R. B. Sheridan.—That one Wm. Drake was and still is a material witness sum–moned on behalf of your petitioner, and that the said W. Drake having, on or about the 10th of this instant February, informed the said R. B. Sheridan that he had been so summoned, and having enquired of him the course he was to pursue, the said R. B. Sheridan told him to leave that bu–siness to him, that he would procure him a situation abroad, and he would also pro–vide for the father of the said W. Drake, and added, that the said W. Drake might have any money he pleased, and wished the said W. Drake to keep out of the way, and endeavoured to persuade the said W. Drake not to give, and to intimidate, and deter, and hinder him from giving, complete and unbiassed testimony before the select com-

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mittee of the facts known to him relative to the said election, and did offer to give money to the said W. Drake for him to procure for the said R. B. Sheridan a certain letter, in the possession of one Emanuel Harris, and which letter the said E. Harris had been required by an order of the right hon. the speaker to produce be–fore the said committee; and that the said R. B. Sheridan did also, on or about Thurs–day, the 19th of Feb, instant, again offer the said W. Drake money, and a situation of profit, with the same view, and did likewise on the last mentioned day, endea–vour to persuade one Tho, Weatherhead, not to give an unbiassed testimony on the trial of the said petition. And that one Alex. Johnston, one Frederick Homan, one Edwards, and divers others the agents and partisans of the said R. B. Sheridan, did also tamper with the said W. Drake, and endeavour to persuade and to deter, and to hinder him from giving unbiassed testi–mony before the said committee; and the said A. Johnston and F. Homan did also endeavour to persuade and induce the said W. Drake to procure the aforesaid letter from the said E. Harris.—That the said R. B. Sheridan, by one Henry Burgess, one James Wallace, and one John Gallant, and divers others his agents and partisans, did also tamper with divers other witnesses summoned by your petitioner to give testi–mony on his behalf: and in particular that the said James Wallace and John Gallant did inform one Wm. Sperring, one Wm. War–ren, one Jeremiah James, one John Pul–len, one Daniel Richardson, one John Ba–lam, and one Christ. Richardson, whom he knew had been so summoned, that it was intended to move this hon. house to postpone the consideration of the said petition until a future day, by which means the orders to attend the said committee, with which they had been served, would be invalid and of no use; and that if it were postponed but for one day, there would be time for them all to get out of the way to avoid their being served a second time; and added, that when they had succeeded in putting it off, each person should have money to go out of the way to prevent his being summoned; and your petitioner has been informed and verily believes that the said W. Sperring, D. Richardson, and W. Warren are now out of the way, and have been persuaded and induced so to do by the means aforesaid.—That the said R. B. Sheridan, and the several persons, agents,
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and partisans, aforesaid, with divers others, have conspired together, in manner aforesaid, and in divers other ways, for the pur–pose of depriving your petitioner of his just right, and preventing him from establishing by his witnesses before a committee of your honourable house, his claim to represent the said city of Westminster.—All which transactions of the said R. B. She–ridan, his agents, and partisans, are to the great injury of your petitioner, in the ma–nifest violation of the standing orders of this hon. house, in defiance of justice, in breach of the law, and to the utter destruction of equal trial. Your petitioner therefore prays that he may be permitted to prove the facts above stated, at the bar of this hon. house, that he may be heard by his counsel at the bar, and that this hon. house will take his witnesses under its protection, and give such relief as in justice shall to this hon. house seem fit, And your petitioner shall ever pray, &c,"—Upon the motion that the petition should lie on the table,
Mr. Sheridan roseto ask the noble lord, whether it was his intention to follow up this petition by any grave proceeding, because, if so, he would reserve what he had to state upon this subject, until such proceeding should be proposed?
Lord Folkestonereplied, that he meant the next day to ground a motion upon this petition, of which he took that opportunity to give notice.—The petition was then ordered to lie on the table
Mr. Wilberforcereminded the noble lord, that a question of considerable im–portance stood for the next day
The Speakerobserved, that as the motion of the noble lord referred to a breach of privilege, it naturally took precedency of every other question
Lord Howickconcurred with the opinion the house had just heard from the chair, that it had always been usual to proceed to the consideration of any charge connected with a breach of privilege with all convenient expedition. Indeed, the prompt investigation of such an important point was so desirable, that he should wish it to be gone into that night. If the noble lord were inclined to proceed, he could not sup–pose that there existed on any side of the house the slightest indisposition to hear him
Lord Folkestone,after all that he had heard of the doctrine of notices, was not prepared to expect that the house would be willing to entertain a question of this

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nature without a previous notice. Such notice being always usual upon grave occa–sions, he confessed that he was not ready to enter into this question at present; nor did he believe the parties interested for the petition were ready either. For neither he nor they could have expected that the house would have felt disposed to deviate from its general practice in this particular instance
Mr. Sheridanfelt it his duty to abstain at present from any remark upon this ex–traordinary petition. Indeed, if he were now to enter into its allegations, he very much apprehended that he might be led to speak of it in warmer terms of scorn and contempt than would be quite becoming, after the order which the house had just made. His hope and desire was, that the consideration of this subject would be pro–ceeded upon as soon as possible, and he sincerely wished that the noble lord might collect and present petitions, containing all the charges circulated against him, either during the progress, or since the termination of the Westminster election. He would be glad to have the whole of that transaction brought before the house, and fully investigated, It was not one act alone, but every pert of the proceeding that it was his wish to have discussed. He had no reason to be afraid of any thing that could be proved. It was the loose al–legation which originated in falsehood, which was propagated by craft, and shrunk from enquiry, that could alone affect his interest. With regard to the charges against him, contained in the petition before the house, he did not know whether it would be decent to say that every word of them was a gross falsehood. But this he knew, that he was fully prepared to shew at the bar, if permitted to prove, that all the witnesses examined at the bar were forsworn, but that, he said, would be mat–ter for future observation
Lord Howickrather wished the house should not separate without some farther proceeding upon the subject of the petition. As to the doctrine of notices, he did not conceive it by any means so sacred as the noble lord professed to think. It certain–ly was not a settled practice, or a standing order, although it had of late been general–ly observed. This practice, therefore, need not be adhered to on the present oc–casion. His desire was to avoid any un–necessary delay, and that the noble lord should at once move to refer the petition to the committee of privileges; and after
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such motion, he would then suggest to the noble lord the propriety of appointing a day for the house to resolve itself into such committee. He was sorry, as the noble lord adhered to notices, that he did not, on some former day, give notice of this petition, and then there could be no reason for the delay that noble lord now proposed. Without entering at present into the general merits of the petition, he had no hesitation in saying that there was one part of the prayer with which he could not concur. Indeed, it would be quite unusual to introduce counsel upon such an occasion. But independently of custom, the house must feel that it would be incon–sistent with its dignity to have counsel at its bar, discussing the nature of its own privileges, and the means of preserving them. That part of the prayer of the pe–tition, therefore, he should feel it his duty to oppose. He again said, that he should wish the noble lord to proceed at once upon this important question
The Speakerobserved, that as the house had already ordered the petition to lie on the table, it was now too late to make any other order
Lord Folkestonewas not aware that it had ever been the practice to give any no–tice of the intention to present a petition. If such had been the custom, the noble secretary would not have had to express any regret on this occasion. The only no–tice which he understood custom to re–quire, he had not neglected in this instance, namely, that of apprising the individual concerned of his intention to present such a petition. For he himself left a note the preceding day at the house of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) acquainting him of his intention of presenting the peti–tion this day. With respect to the nature of his future proceeding, he felt some difficulty in determining, in consequence of the declaration which the house had just heard from the noble secretary of state, as he had calculated upon the necessity and propriety of counsel to examine the witnes–ses. This new difficulty rendered him of course still less capable of proceeding with the promptitude which the noble secretary professed to desire, At this desire he could not help feeling some astonishment, consi–dering how much the doctrine of notices had been often insisted upon, recollecting, indeed, that the neglect of previous notice had been sometimes deemed a fatal objection to the adoption of a motion. But to return to

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the noble secretary's wish for proceeding that night, the fact was, that such a course would serve to render the whole business nu–gatory, and would indeed operate to stifle the enquiry, as none of the necessary witnesses were then in attendance, nor could, perhaps, be immediately found. He therefore should postpone the subject until the next day
Lord Howick,influenced by what had fallen from the chair, did not mean to press any farther proceeding that night. But, in order to obviate the possibility of any misconception or misconstruction arising out of what the noble lord had said relative to the idea of rendering this business nuga–tory, or stifling enquiry,he thought it neces–sary to repeat the substance of what he had before stated. In urging the noble lord to move at once for referring the pe–tition on the table to a committee of privi–leges, he by no means proposed that the noble lord should at once be called on to produce his witnesses, and go into the en–quiry; on the contrary, he had distinctly stated, that a future day should be ap–pointed for the committee to sit. There–fore, no expression whatever had escaped him which could warrant any man in sup–posing that he wished the noble lord to be taken by surprise, or hurried into the en–quiry without ample preparation. Now, in order that full time should be allowed the noble lord to prepare and bring for–ward his witnesses, he proposed that the further consideration of this subject should be postponed till Monday
Lord Folkestoneexpressed his willingness to adopt the suggestion of the noble secre–tary of state, by postponing till Monday his intended motion upon the subject of Mr. Paull's petition
Mr. Adamwished to know the precise nature of the noble lord's motion, in order that gentlemen should have an opportunity previously to consider it: for with all the desire that he felt to have a charge of such aggravated character probed to the bottom, still he might feel himself under the necessity of negativing the noble lord's motion, should it prove to be incorrect in its nature
Lord Folkestonefelt himself unable to give a precise answer to the learned gent.'s question, particularly in consequence of what had fallen from the noble secretary of state. He therefore could not at present say distinctly what would be the form of his motion; but he had no objection to state generally, that the object of it would be to have witnesses called to the bar for examina-
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tion as to the charges alleged in the petition

NEW PLAN OF FINANCE.
Lord Castlereagh,before he proposed to name ano–ther day for the consideration of the Fi–nancial Resolutions he had laid before the house, wished to take this opportunity of submitting three other resolutions which he proposed to bring under its consideration. He did not wish to enter into any detail that could provoke discussion or call for reply. His object was, simply to state the object of the new resolutions he meant to propose. He felt himself called upon to bring forward these resolutions, and par–ticularly in consequence of certain expres–sions which fell from an hon. gent. (Mr. H. Thornton), whose opinions were much looked up to on all subjects, but particu–larly on subjects of this nature. That hon. gent. had complained that his(lord C.'s) reso–lutions instituted comparisons between the noble lord's system and the old mode (Mr. Pitt's) of raising the expenses within the year, and not with either of the plans he proposed to substitute, and that this was not fair at a time when it was universally agreed that further taxation ought to be abstained from. Two of the resolutions he had now to propose, were to shew that the noble lord's plan would bear as little comparison with the modifications of it which he had proposed, as with the old system. The third resolution was to shew, that by the noble lord's mode of managing the sinking fund, more injury would be done to the stockholders, than by the former system, or either of the plans pro–posed by him. He wished to make a few verbal amendments in the resolutions now before the house, in order to put the house fully in possession of his views. Upon the fullest consideration, he saw no reason to alter the opinion he had at first formed of the noble lord's plan, and his objections to it were rather confirmed and increased, than diminished.—The further consideration of all the resolutions was then de–ferred till Monday fortnight. The whole of the Resolutions moved by the noble lord were as follow:
No. 1.—"That it is proposed by the New Plan of Finance, brought forward by the chancellor of the exchequer, that the annual excesses of the present sinking fund, above the interest of the debt charged upon it in any given year, should be de–clared to be at the disposal of parliament, and applicable to the public service. And it appears that the aggregate produce of

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the said excesses, between the years 1816 and 1826, will amount in the whole to 11,122,809 l. (E.)*—That annuities to the amount of 683,062 l. will fall in between the years 1807 and 1826. (K.)—That it is proposed by the New Plan of Finance, to charge, on the aggregate produce of the said excesses of the sinking fund, and upon the said annuities, the interest and sinking fund of 204,200,000 l. supplementary loans (B.); and to impose, in aid of the said aggregate produce, between the years 1810 and 1816, new taxes, to the amount of 2,051,000 l. (C.)—That, in addition to the supplementary loans so to be provided for, it is proposed by the New Plan to raise war loans to the amount of 292,000,000 l. on the credit of the war taxes, amounting to 21,000,000 l. (C.)—That the war and supplementary loans of each year, added to so much of the war taxes as may remain unmortgaged, will produce in each year respectively the sum of 32,000,000 l. (B.)—That, in order to raise the said sum of 32,000,000 l. in each year, without mortgaging the war taxes, there would be required, in addition to the 21,000,000 l. of war taxes, an annual loan of 11 millions only.—That, without any mortgage upon the war taxes, (supposing the charge and the permanent provision for the interest and sinking fund of the same, to arise proportionably in the re–spective years) an annual loan of 11 mil–lions might be provided for, for nearly 19 years, by the application of the same funds; viz. the annuities, amounting to. 683,062 l.; the excesses of the sinking fund, amounting to 11,122,809 l.; and, the new taxes intended to be imposed by the New Plan, amounting to 2,051,000 l.; on which the supplementary loans are to be charged."
No. 2.—"That the proposed system of Finance proceeds gradually to mortgage, for 14 years, the whole of the war taxes for the interest of loans in war.—That these taxes are not generally of a nature which can, with propriety, be so pledged as se–veral of them (such as the tax on tonnage and exports, and the duties on tea and on spirits) must probably either be modified, or reduced, on a peace; whilst it is proposed by the said Plan, that the property tax, amounting to 11,500,000 l. should in
* Note.—The letters refer to the tables in the printed papers, in which the price of the 3 per cent. stock is taken at 60.
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that event be entirely remitted; in which case (exclusive of any mortgage at the time affecting the residue of the war taxes) the portion of them which might be continued, without material prejudice to the public revenue beyond the war, must be wholly insufficient to equalize the revenue with the peace expenditure.
Suppose a Peace Establishment at £.15,000,000: If the War Taxes were mortgaged, there would remain,

Land and Malt

£.2,750,000

Surplus of Consolidated Fund

3,500,000

Lottery

450,000

£6,700,000-6,700,000

Annual Deficiency to be provided for by New Loans or Taxes

8,300,000

Supposing the Peace Establishment to amount to

20,000,000

The Deficiency, to be provided for, in like manner, would be

13,300,000

No. 3.—"That the New Plan will re–quire loans to a greater amount, to be raised in each year, than would be required if the usual system of borrowing were per–severed in.

By the present System, in order to cover a War Expenditure of

—.32,000,000

There would be wanted in each year, in aid of the twenty?one Millions War Taxes, a Loan of

11,000,000

Amounting, in twenty years, to

220,000,000

NEW PLAN:

Amount of War Loans, for twenty years (B)

£292,000,000

Ditto of Supplementary Loans, for ditto (B)

204,200,000

Total

£496,200,000

Total Excess by the New Plan - £.276,200,000

The average capital to be annually raised by the New Plan is,

Annual Amount of Loans, by the New Plan, on a 20-years' average:

War Loan

£14,600,000

Supplementary Ditto

10,200,000

Total by New Plan

24,800,800

Average Annual Excess by New Plan

13,800,000

No. 4.—" That the comparative Increase of the Public Debt, which would be pro–duced by the two Systems, and the effect they will have on the proportionate amount of the sinking fund, by their operation in 20 years, is as follows:
EFFECT OF THE PRESENT SYSTEM,
As existing under 26, 32, 42 Geo. III. cap. 31, 55, 71.

The Amount of Money Capital of the Public Debt is (by Table N.) in the year
1807

£363,793,722

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The Amount of ditto will be, in the year 1826, supposing 11 millions raised in each year

270,443,305

Decrease of Debt in 20 years, raising 11 millions in each year

93,350,417

EFFECT OF THE NEW PLAN:

Amount of the Money Capital of the Public Debt, under the New Plan, is, in 1807,

£.364,993,722

The amount of ditto will be, in 1826,

455,537,932

Increase by New Plan in 20 years

£. 90,544,210

Decrease of Debt by Present System, as above

93,350,417

Increase of ditto by the New Plan

90,544,210

Total increase of debt by New System

£.183,894,667

EFFECT OF THE PRESENT PLAN ON THE SINKING FUND:

Amount of Sinking Fund, under the Present System, on the Public Debt, 1807, (N)

£.8,515,042

Amount of ditto will be, in 1826 (N)

27,115,881

Increase of Sinking Fund in 20 years-

18,610,839

EFFECT OF THE NEW PLAN ON THE SINKING FUND:

Amount of Sinking Fund, under the New System, is stated to be, in 1807

8,935,042

Amount of ditto under the New System, will be, in 1826

26,901,360

Increase in 20 years

£17,966,318

Difference in favour of present System

644,421

So that the New Plan gives only 26,901,360 l. sinking fund on a debt of 455,537,932 l.; whilst the present system would give the larger sinking fund of 27,115,881 l. on the smaller debt of 270,443,305 l. (N.)—The proportion of the sinking fund to the whole debt, would be, under the present Plan, in 1826, above one–-tenth.—The proportion of the sinking fund to the whole debt, under the New Plan, will be in 1826, about one-seventeenth. (N.)—The sinking fund, under the present plan, above stated at 27,115,881 l. continues to increase at compound interest, after the year 1826, till the whole debt is redeemed. —The Sinking Fund, under the New Plan, having attained its maximum of 28,155,358 l. in the year 1820, descends to 26,901,360 l. in the year 1826; and must continue to decline after that period, so long as the excesses shall be deducted."
No. 5.—"That an Increase of Charges for the interest and sinking fund of loans, for the 20 years, must take place under the New Plan, compared with the like charge,
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which would take place, were the present system persevered in.

EFFECTS OF THE PRESENT SYSTEM.

Annual Loan £ 11,000,000.;—Charge for Interest add Sinking Fund (L)

£. 733,333

Amount of Loans for twenty Years, £. 220,000,000.—Charge for ditto (L.)

14,666,680

EFFECT OF THE NEW PLAN

Charge of the Supplementary Loans, amounting in 20 years to £ 204,200,000. Expiring Annuities deducted (C)

£. 14,266,38

War Taxes, mortgaged at the end of 20 years, which are to be liberated successively in the next 14 years after 1826

21,000,000

Charge, as above, under the present System (L)

14,666,660

Charge under the New Plan, for Supplementary Loans only (G.)

14,299,388

Difference, exclusive of Charge of Distribution, as stated in Resolution 8. A.

370,272

War Taxes, mortgaged as above far War Loans, according to the New Plan

£. 21,000,000

Ditto, according to the present System

Nil.

No. 6.—"That the Ways and Means, proposed by the New Plan, to prevent the necessity of imposing new taxes to any considerable amount, viz. the expiring annuities, together with the excesses of the sinking fund above the interest of the unredeemed debt, are equally applicable, pro tanto, to mitigate their increase under any other mode of raising loans which may be decided on. The means proposed by the New Plan, of defraying the interest and sinking fund of the supplementary loans are as follows:

Produce of the Excess of the Sinking Fund between 1816 and 1826, above the interest of the Unredeemed Debt (F)

£11,122,809

Applicable by the falling-in of Annuities

683,062

New Permanent Taxes proposed by the New Plan to be raised between 1810 and 1817, to the amount of (K)

2,051,000

Total

£13,856,871

Charge of Supplementary Loans, Annuities not deducted (C)

£14,296,388

*Ways and means as above

13,856,871

Remains to be provided for, exclu–sive of the charge of equalizing the Ways and Means, with the charge, so far as they do not arise propor–tionally within the respective years,

£439,517

* Vide Res. 8. A.

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Charge for the total amount of Loans, at the rate of 11,000,000 l. a year, under the pre–sent System, at 733,333 l. per annum, for In–terest and Sinking Fund; the Expiring Annui–ties not deducted (K)

£14,666,660

As a Fund to supply this Charge, the Ways and Means, as above, for raising the Interest and Sinking Fund of the Supplementary Loans, may be applied, pro tanto

13,856,871

Remains to be provided for, in order to cover the charge, ex–clusive of the charge of distribution, as above

£. 809,789

It therefore appears, that the means re–quired to be applied under the New System, to defray the charge for Interest and Sink–ing Fund on the Supplementary Loans alone, would, with the addition of taxes to the amount of 370,272 l., and the charge of distribution, as above, defray the total charges of the loans required to complete the fund of 32,000,000 l. annually for war expenditure, without the necessity of any in-cumbrance whatever upon the War Taxes.
No. 7.—"That the comparative Effects which would be produced on the Public Income by the two Systems on return of peace, and on the formation of a peace establishment, are as follows:
UNDER THE PRESENT PLAN:
There would be no charge whatever upon any part of the war taxes. The whole 21 millions would remain free. The property tax, or whatever portion of the other war taxes were not required towards making an adequate provision for the peace esta–blishment, might be immediately remitted, leaving that resource unpledged, and available on the recurrence of war.
UNDER THE NEW SYSTEM:
When peace takes place, a considerable part, if not the whole of the war taxes, will have been mortgaged. In the latter case, there will only remain a clear reve–nue of 6,700,000 l. immediately applicable to support the charges of a peace establishment.—By table R. it appears that in, 1826, the excesses of the war and present sinking fund, will, if peace be then made, amount to 10,720,730 l. If this sum shall be then preferably applied to liberate a part of the property tax mortgaged for, the war debt, the remainder of the property tax, and all the war taxes, will become per–manent taxes, and part of the consolidated fund, and be mortgaged, like the other parts of that fund, for the redemption of the war debt, and the present debt thus
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consolidated into a common debt; and the deficiency, on the peace establishment, must be provided for either by fresh taxes, or fresh loans."
No 8.—"That the sum of 11 millions a year, required in aid of the 21 millions War Taxes, to complete the War Expendi–ture of 32 millions, may be raised (should the principle of applying the excesses of the Sinking Fund to the public service be decided on) according to the following mode, without mortgaging the war taxes; without swelling the loans to be raised within the year to the inordinate amount of 32 millions sterling; without rendering new taxes of any materially greater amount necessary than it is proposed to lay on by the New System, and without making so considerable an addition to the debt as will be made, should the New System be carried into execution.

The sum required as above, to provide for a loan of 11 millions per ann., for 20 years, is

£14,666,660

The resources available, amount (exclusive of the charges of distribution) to

13,856,871

Deficiency

£809,789

The deficiency of 809,789 l. exceeding on–ly by 370,272 l. the charges for supplemen–tary loans, would remain an additional charge to he provided for, in addition to the charge of equalizing the ways and means with the annual demands within the respective years.—As the charges upon a loan of 11 millions would, in each year, amount to 733,333 l., if it should be thought fit, in aid of the annuities, to raise, in the first 9 years, only the precise amount of taxes proposed by the New Plan, until the excesses of the sinking fund shall arise in 1816; the difference between the above funds, and the annual charge of 733,333 l. may be added as it arises in the said pe–riod, to the loan of the year; the interest and sinking fund thereon being defrayed, in the first instance, out of the consolidated fund, till otherwise replaced."
No. 8.—(A.)"That the comparative ef–fects of the Plan in Res. 8. as contrasted with the New System, may be stated as follows:
FIRST CASE.—Supposing peace to take place at the end of the ninth year, that is, in 1815:

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Capital borrowed in 9 years by New System.

War Loans

£. 130,000,000

Supplementary Loans

£. 30,200,000

Total borrowed by New Plan

£. 160,2000,00

Capital borrowed in 9 years by Resolution 8.

Ordinary Loans, at 11 millions annually

£99,000,000

To equalize Ways and Means with the charge, within the respective years, including the advances from the Consolidated Fund

29,791,234

Total borrowed by Resolution 8

128,791,234

More capital borrowed by New Plan

£. 31,408,766

Debt remaining unredeemed at the end of 1815; also, Comparative Amount of Sinking Fund, supposing peace then to take place, the excesses of the war sinking fund in New Plan being previously deducted, in order to liberate the larger proportion of war taxes:

Debt:

Sinking Fund:

By New Plan

384,480,570—

18,278,435 - 1/21

By Res. 8.

378,249,442—

15,645,001 – 1/24

More Debt by New plan.

£6,231,128

By New Plan, War Taxes pledged, and rendered permanent after the excesses of War Sinking Fund have been deducted

£9,517,749

By Resolution 8. War Taxes pledged

Nil.

By New Plan, Loan raised in 1815

24,000,000

By Res. 8. Ditto, including a sum equal to the advances from Consolidated Fund

17,019,360

In the above case no new taxes, beyond those to be imposed by the New Plan, will be required; as the excesses of the present sinking fund arising in 1816, will fully supply the permanent provision for the postponed charge of the loans raised in the preceding 9 years.
SECOND CASE.—Supposing war to con–tinue to the end of 20 years:
Capital to be raised by New Plan.

War Loans

292,000,000

Supplementary Loans

204,200,000

Total borrowed by New Plan

£. 496,200,000

Ditto, by Resolution 8, 11 millions in each year

220,000,000

To equalize Ways and Means up to 1815

29,791,234

To equalize ditto up to 1826, supposing 500,000 l. New Taxes (in addition to those proposed by New Plan) to be imposed in each of the 6 years successively from 1816 to 1821, both inclusive

16,807,600

Total Capital borrowed by Res. 8

£. 266,598,834

More Capital borrowed by New Plan

229,601,166

Debt remaining unredeemed at the end of 1826; also, Comparative Amount of Sink–
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ing Fund, supposing peace then made, the excesses of the war sinking fund being previously deducted in order to liberate the larger proportion of War Taxes:

By New Plan, in 1826

428,636,572—17,525,698—1/24

By Res.8. in do.

341,960,615—15,740,171-1/21

More debt unredeemed by New Plan.

—. 86,675,957

By New Plan, War Taxes pledged, and rendered permanent after the excesses of the War Sinking Fund have been deducted

£. 10,279,270

By Res 8. War Taxes pledged

Nil.

By New Plan, loan to be raised in 1826

32,000,000

By Resolution 8

11,000,000

There is, however, to be set off against the 10,279,270 l. war taxes rendered per–manent by New Plan, the 3,000,000 l. New Taxes to be laid on between 1816 and 1826, supposing the whole period to be one of war. In the event however of peace ta–king place between 1816 and 1821, these New Taxes, according to the period at which it shall happen, may be altogether dispensed with, or proportionably reduced. Whereas the amount of the war taxes, which will be pledged and rendered per–manent, even at the commencement of 1816, is 9,517,749 l."
No. 9.—"That nearly the same results (viz. the having abstained from mortgaging the war taxes, and the having kept the loan of the year within moderate limits,) may be produced, by determining, that when the loan of the year in war does not exceed the amount of the sinking fund in the said year, instead of making provi–sion for the interest of the said loan by new taxes, the same shall be provided for by and out of the Interest receivable on the Amount of Stock in that year, redeem–ed by the commissioners of the national debt: in which case, the amount of debt unredeemed will continue stationary du–ring war.

The Sinking Fund is at present (N)

£. 8,331,709

It will be, at the close of 1810

10,956,941

In about 4 years therefore, from the pre–sent time, no new taxes will be required, (the data remaining the same) however long the war may continue; and the war taxes will remain free at the close of the war, when the sinking fund will resume its progressive operation; the purchase of stock by the commissioners being conti–nued, in the mean time, to the full amount of the sinking fund.

1013

That the charge for 4 years Loan, as above, for 11 millions in each year, taking credit for 385,515 l. Annuities, amounts to

2,547,810

Taxes required in each year, for the next 4 years

626,952

The taxes so to be imposed exceed only by 496,810 l. the total amount of New Taxes proposed by the New Plan to be imposed between 1810 and 1817; by which Plan the war taxes are at the same time progressively absorbed and pledged for the redemption of the loans raised upon them.

According to this plan, the Debt would continue stationary throughout the war, at

358,955,705

Amount of Debt at close of 1826, by New Plan (N)

428,636,572

Ditto in 1826, by this plan

358,955,705

Difference of Debt in favour of this plan

£69,680,867

And no War Taxes mortgaged.
Any excess of annual expenditure above the 32 millions, is supposed in this, as in the New Plan, to be separately provided fox in the usual manner."
No. 9(A.) "The Comparative Effect of the above Plan (Res. 9.) as contrasted With the New System, may be stated as follows:
1st Case.—Supposing peace to take place at the end of 7th year, 1813:
Capital borrowed in 7 years.

By New Plan, War Loans

98,000,000

By ditto Supplementary Loans

15,800,000

Total borrowed by New Plan

113,800,000

By Res. 9, 11 millions in each year

77,000,000

More borrowed by New Plan

£. 36,800,000

Debt remaining unredeemed at the end of 1813; also Comparative Amount of Sinking Fund, supposing peace then made, the excesses of the War Sinking Fund in New Plan being previously deducted in order thereby to liberate the larger pro–portion of war taxes.

Debt:

Sinking Fund.

By New Plan

£. 377,653,730

15,915,952 – 1/23

By Res. 9.

358,955,705

10,956,941 – 1/32

More Debt by New Plan.

18,698,625

By New Plan, War Taxes pledged and rendered permanent after the excesses of the War Sinking Fund are deducted

£. 7,773,921

By Res. 9. War Taxes pledged

Nil.

By New Plan, New Taxes imposed

1,172,000

By Res. 9, ditto

2,547,810

By New Plan, Loan to be raised in 1814

20,800,000

By Res. 9. ditto in ditto

11,000,000

2d CASE.—Supposing peace to take place at the end of 14 years, 1820:
Capital borrowed in 14 years,

By New Plan, War Loans

210,000,000

By ditto, Supplementary Loans

94,200,000

Total borrowed by New Plan

304,200,000

By Res. 9. 11 millions in each year

154,000,000

More borrowed by New Plan

£. 150,200,000

Debt unredeemed at end of 1820; also Comparative Amount of Sinking Fund, supposing peace then made, stated as in preceding case:

Debt:

Sinking Fund:

By New Plan

£. 401,231,629

17,744,021 – 1/22

By Res. 9.

358,955,705

10,956,941 – I/33

More debt by New Plan.

42,275,924

By New Plan, War Taxes rendered permanent

£. 9,180,896

By Res. 9. War Taxes pledged

Nil.

By New Plan, New Taxes imposed

2,051,000

By Res. 9. ditto

2,547,810

By New Plan, Loan in 1820

32,000,000

By Res. 9. ditto in ditto

11,000,000

3d CASE.—Supposing peace to take place at the end of 20 years, 1826:
Capital borrowed in 20 years,

By New Plan, War Loans

292,000,000

By ditto Supplementary Loans

204,200,000

Total borrowed by New Plan

496,200,000

By Res. 9, 11 millions in each year

220,000,000

More borrowed by New Plan

£. 276,200,000

Debt unredeemed at end of 1826; also, Comparative Amount of Sinking Fund, supposing peace then made, stated as in the preceding cases:

Debt:

Sinking Fund:

By New Plan

£. 248,636,572

17,524,698

By Res. 9.

358,955,705

10,956,941

More debt by New Plan

69,682,867

By New Plan, War Taxes rendered permanent

10,280,000

By Res. 9. War Taxes pledged

Nil.

By New Plan, New Taxes imposed

2,051,000

By Res. 9. ditto

2,547,810

By New Plan, Loan in 1826

32,000,000

By Res. 9. ditto in ditto

11,000,000

That the improvidence of the mode of raising money, proposed by the New Plan, will best appear, if, instead of having the whole of the war taxes free upon a peace, as is the case by Res. 9. a portion of them equal to the amount pledged, and ren–dered permanent in 1826 by the New Plan, viz. 10,279,270 l. should be then gi–ven over to the sinking fund, as it will stand by Resolution 9. in that year. The

1015
comparison of debt and sinking fund would then stand thus; the war taxes being equally mortgaged:

Debt.

Sinking Fund.

By New Plan

£. 428,636,572

£. 17,525,698

By Res. 9.

358,955,705

21,236,211 1/16

By New Plan, more Debt.

£. 69,680,867 less Sinking Fund

£. 3,710,513

The same observation applies to both the preceding cases.
If the measure of imposing the 2,547,810 l. new taxes, required by resolution 9. in the first four years, be objected to, and it be deemed expedient that the imposition of new taxes in the next three years be wholly abstained from, their commence–ment may be postponed till the fourth year, by simply confining the provision in the first 3 years to a sum sufficient to co–ver the difference between the eleven mil–lions to be raised, and the stock purchased within the year, by the sinking fund, that is, to the sum of 2,668,291 l., the annual interest and sinking fund on which amoun–ting to 177,886 l., will be nearly covered by the annuities which are to fall in, in the two first years. A small increase of tax–es beyond the 2,547,816 l., viz. of 533,658 l. will result from this temporary indul–gence in the following years; but, on the other hand, credit may be taken for the annuities, amounting to 298,092 l. which are subsequently to talk in."
No. 9.—(B.) "That much prejudice and embarrassment is likely to result both to the interest of the stockholder, and to the money transactions of the country, from the large and rapidly increasing loans which must be raised, according to the New Plan, in each year of war, the annual amount of which, in the latter years of the operation (if to their estimated amount, viz. 32 millions, be added the sums which will be required for the service of Ireland, for subsidies, and other unforeseen expences, and for the progressive advance of charge upon any given establishment) will probably not fall short before the close of the period, of from 40 to 50 millions money capital; which, supposing the 3 percents. at 60, would require the creation of a capital of from 66 to 82 millions annually.—That the making of loans to such an inordinate amount (increasing in each year in a greater proportion than the sinking fund) must, by the great influx of new stock to be thus created, and sold in
1016
the market, have a tendency to lower the price of the public securities, and conse–quently to reduce the value of the property of the stockholder.—That the negociation of loans to so large an amount, and the augmented issues which will be required to be made from the exchequer in execu–tion of the said Plan, must lead to an ex–tension of the circulating medium of the country, to increased charges of manage–ment on the part of the public, and to the accelerated depreciation of the value of money, on the stability of which the inter–est of the stockholder, and those who may enjoy fixed rents, so peculiarly depends.—That the principle of placing at the disposal of parliament the excesses of the sinking fund above the interest of the debt unre–deemed, as proposed by the New Plan, is calculated to lead to a much more exten–ded diversion of the sinking fund from its application to the purchase of stock, than the principle proposed in Resolution 9. viz. that of applying in war, not the fund itself, but the interest of the stock redeemed within the year by the fund, as a provision for the loan of that particular year; inas–much as the latter only Proposes to derive aid from the operations of the sinking fund during war, awl only to the precise extent of the interest of the sums redeemed within the year, leaving the fund entire to resume its operation at compound interest, upon a peace; whereas the former Plan opens the excesses of the sinking fund to the ab–solute disposal of parliament, in peace as well as in war, "for such public services as par–liament may direct," without any other limitation than that a sum equal to the debt subsisting in 1802, shall be redeemed with–in 45 years from that period, instead of 24 years from the present time, as it would be reduced by the operations of the fund, as it now stands, under the provisions of the 42d Geo. III. cap. 71. thereby annually subtracting from the fund itself after the– year 1816, and rendering it, even in peace, a declining instead of a growing fund.— That the equivalent which, it is alleged, is to be given to the stockholder for so ex–tensive and permanent a disappropriation of the sinking fund from the redemption of the debt; viz. the additional 5 per-cent sinking fund on the war loans, cannot be deemed, for the reasons above stated, even in time of war, to operate as any compen–sation or equivalent whatever, as the value of his property is likely to be more injured by the unnecessary and improvident accu?

1017
mulation of loans in the market, than im–proved by the addition thereby made to the sinking fund of the year by borrowed capi–tal. But as the benefit (if it really were one) can accrue only during war, and must cease with it, the stockholder is called upon, for the temporary enjoyment of this question–able advantage (possibly only for a few months) to submit to have the sinking fund, which is now expressly pledged by the 5th section of the 42d of Geo. III. cap. 71. to the uninterrupted liquidation of his debt, large–ly diverted from that object even in time of peace, when no adequate public exigency can be alleged to justify the same; and when, from a variety of intervening causes, (at least there are no grounds upon which parliament can at this day safely conclude to the contrary) the interests of the stock–holder, as well as those of the public, may be best consulted, by suffering the accumu–lation of the sinking fund to proceed, as hitherto, at compound interest, in reduction of the national debt, and in con–formity to the provisions of the existing law."
No. 10.—"That the expence of raising any given amount of loan on the present system; viz. by a single loan, with a sinking fund of one per-cent. as compa–red with the principle of the New Plan, of raising the same amount by double and concurrent loans; the one raised upon a fund of ten per-cent. for interest and sink–ing fund; the other raised upon a fund of six per-cent. for interest and sinking fund; calculating the payments on ac–count thereof from the commencement to the final liquidation of the said loan, is as follows; the sinking fund in both cases being taken on the money, instead of the nominal capital:
Suppose 12,000,000 l. to be raised:

Ten per cent. Interest and Sinking Fund on 12,000,000 l. for 1 year

1,200,000

A like charge for 13 years more, at which time the Principal is redeemed

15,600,000

Total Payments

£. 16,800,000

To cover the interest and sinking fund of 1,200,000 l. at six per-cent. a fund of 72,000 l. must be provided in each of the fourteen years;—the amount thereof is 1,008,000 l.
The latter sum, being raised on a one–-per-cent. sinking fund, may be considered as an annuity of 43 years.

Payments on account thereof

43,344,000

1018

Payments as above

16,800,000

Total Payments

£. 60,144,000

PRESENT SYSTEM:
The Interest and Sinking Fund on a loan of 12,000,000 l., at six per-cent. amounts, per annum, to 720,000 l.
This charge being raised on a one-per–cent. sinking fund, may be considered as an annuity of 43 years.

Payments to be made on account thereof till its redemption

£30,960,000

Payments on New System, upon a loan of 12,000,000

60,144,000

Ditto on present System

30,960,000

Excess of the charge of Redemption by New System"

£. 29,184,000"

CARNATIC PAPERS.
Sir Thomas Turton roseand spoke as follows:—Pursuant to a notice I gave en a former day, I riser sir, to call the attention of the house to the subject of the Carnatic. The papers which I think necessary for the elucidation of that subject, and which will be specified in the motion I shall have the honour of making, and to which, I trust, there will be no objection, since they have al–ready been laid upon the table of this house, and remained there for a considera–ble time—the papers alluded to were cal–led for by an hon. gent. not now a member of this house, and they were moved for originally on reasons which I hope will ap–ply now. After a short statement of the case, I am inclined to believe there will be no objection to my motion, because the documents it calls for are necessary for the purpose of justice, as well towards the par–ty accused, as to the accuser. When the motion was formerly made on this subject, the facts were then recent in the recollec–tion of the house, from the history of the transactions which was then given. Sir, it is in the recollection of almost every man, that intelligence arrived in this country, of the death of Omdut ul Omrah, commonly called the nabob of the Carnatic, and of the circumstances of his lineal successor, as he would have been by the Mahomedan law, being dethroned, and another placed in his room. Many persons acquainted with Indian politics, perfectly well know the circumstances attending that deposition—but none could reconcile the act on any principle of justice; for every one knew, from the youth of the prince, as well as from his mode of conduct, that the act could not have arisen out of any pro–ceedings of his own. He had not had an

1019
opportunity of doing any one act of govern–ment, before the Indian presidencies had adopted a line of policy which had depri–ved him of the Musnud. Enquiries were accordingly made into the subject, and that young prince found a very able advo–cate in the right hon. gent. opposite to me, (Mr. Sheridan,) and also in an hon. gent. not now a member of this house. Upon that occasion the enquiry took up a considerable length of time, the number of pa–pers moved for swelled to a very consider–able size, and the subject was interrupted by the dissolution of the late parliament. It is unnecessary for me to enter into any discussion on the propriety of renewing the con–sideration of this important subject, much less is it necessary for me to enquire into the motives which could induce the right hon. gent. who had once brought the sub–ject before the house, to relinquish it, since it is not in my power to know the mo–tives that might influence his conduct. I am well assured, from the general tenour and habits of his political life, nothing could have induced him to decline bringing forward the subject that is inconsistent with his notions of public duty; yet it is impossible not to perceive that the right hon. gent.'s connections at present are persons who, if their wishes could operate upon his judgment, would certainly induce him to decline the further investigation of this subject: and that the right hon. gent. does decline it, we have his own declara–tion. It has, therefore, devolved to me, and I cannot help regretting that it has not fallen into abler hands. But it is a du–ty, as I feel it, to bring this question for–ward, for reasons which must be obvious to the house; and which I hinted at when I gave my notice. I said then, and I now repeat it, if any other member of the house should be inclined to take the subject out of my hands, I should most cheerfully de–liver it up to such a person, promising him most faithfully that he shall have my cordial, active, and zealous support, to the utmost of my power. But if no other gentleman chooses to take that part, I feel that I have a claim upon the justice of the house, in calling its attention to this sub–ject. I will add, that not only do I con–ceive that I have a claim upon the justice of the house in soliciting its attention; but I have a claim also to the assistance of the house in discussing it; for you know, sir, that those who have any reason to com–plain upon this subject, can have no redress
1020
any where except in this house, and it is as essential to the interests of this nation, as it is to those of the noble marquis, to have the matter completely investigated, and to remove all suspicions that can pos–sibly attach to any of the transactions in which that noble marquis is concerned. I wish to say nothing farther of that noble–man at present, than that he is a man of great abilities and comprehensive talents, of which he has given proof on many occa–sions. It has been rumoured, that the noble marquis is thought of, as a fit person to fill a high and responsible office in this country—a circumstance which can never happen, until his character shall be res–cued from the situation in which it appears to be implicated, as relating to the Carna–tic transactions. In urging the investiga–tion of the Carnatic Papers, I am consulting the only fair mode of establishing the Character of that nobleman, for which he ought to be thankful. It appears to me, from the papers which I am about to call For, and which have been already upon the table of this house, a considerable portion of criminality attaches to the court of directors here, and to the conduct of their principal officers abroad, as well as to the board of controul, by which I do not mean the present board, but a former board. The Papers which I shall call for, will shew what degree of blame, if any, is imputable to each of these descriptions of persons, and that is one of the great ob–jects for which my motion is brought forward. With regard to the new papers, which I think it my duty to move for, it is necessary that I should call the attention of the house to the manner in which I first proposed to make a motion, when you, sir, very properly prevented me from en–tering into any detail on that occasion, when I confined myself to the bare notice of a motion for printing those papers, only, which, in my judgment, had a direct beari–ng upon the question to be discussed, not wishing to embarrass it with documents which I thought had no bearing upon the question. For the same reason I intend to exclude the 2d volume of papers which were laid on the table in the month of Au–gust 1803; as they relate to stale accounts from lord Hobart and lord Macartney, which appear to me to have very little bear–ing upon the question which I am desirous to have discussed. But if any gentleman thinks they are necessary, I can have no objection to their production. It is now

1021
proper that I should state shortly the ob–ject for which I move the reprinting of the papers, and of the printing of such others, as appear to me to be requisite for the thorough understanding of the affair. It has been said, and the same sentiment seems to pervade the whole correspondence of the East-India company and the governor of Madras, that policy might have rendered it necessary that we should assume the government of the Carnatic. My motion goes to lay before the house those papers which shew whether there then really existed any ground or pretence for saying that the conduct of the nabob had rendered that assumption necessary. It is observable, with reference to the con–duct of marquis Wellesley, immediately after the surrender of Seringapatam, that he refers to an intended account which was to be rendered of the motives which induced the noble marquis to assume the govern–ment, alleging that he would send a review of those transactions to England; but it does not appear that he ever sent that pro–mised statement. There are some letters of the court of directors, too, which re–quire explanation, on which I give no opinion at present; by which it appears that some difference existed between my lord Clive and the marquis Wellesley, involving matters which are not, in any de–gree, explained. The third set of papers regard the Polygar war, in 1801. It ap–pears from the treaty of 1792, that the Company's government had a right depu–ted to them to collect the pishcash or tri–bute from the Polygars; and to enforce the payment, if necessary, on the requisi–tion of the nabob. But every act to be performed, was to be done in the nabob's name, and by his authority. Now, this war, which was a very extraordinary one, both in its alleged cause and consequences, must, at first sight, appear to have been sanctioned at least by the nabob. It will, therefore, be necessary to ascertain Whe–ther, in point of fact, it was so or not; in order to shew that the nabob's government was either the cause of the war, or to free it from the consequences and the blame which might attach to that measure. But, sir, before I submit this motion to the house, it may be asked of me whether I do not think I owe some apology to the house as to the time which will be taken up by bringing this subject forward? and I think it is perfectly correct to ask me that ques–tion. Sir, if this motion be agreed to, I
1022
take upon me to say, that within one month after the papers are printed, I shall be further prepared to move those resolu–tions on the papers, which I shall judge requisite. I am of opinion it could be done in much less time, if necessary; but the subject is important, and demands a full enquiry. I hesitate not to say, that I bring this subject forward as an independent mem–ber of parliament, anxious to rescue the country from the imputation of misconduct; and I beg leave to observe, that I have no connection whatever with those who were first concerned in bringing this subject for–ward. With regard to Mr. Paull, I have no difficulty in stating, that I think be de–serves well of his country for the part he has taken in these transactions. I never saw him in my life. My reason for promo–ting this enquiry arises from an anxiety I feel, that this country should not suffer in its character from imputations which it does not deserve. I shall conclude with moving, "that the papers which were pre–sented to this house upon the 21st and 23d days of June 1802, and upon the 10th day of August 1803, relative to the Carnatic, be reprinted for the members of the house
Mr. Sheridanthanked the hon. baronet for his liberality and candour, and acknow–ledged the pledge which he had given to proceed with the enquiry. He had stated the reasons which induced him to give it up, when the hon. baronet was not a member of the house. He would again state them at the proper time, and then the hon. baro–net would be satisfied that he did him no more than justice, in giving him credit for the purity of his motives. The question, as he thought, was confined to the con–duct of the Madras government, but from volumes of papers afterwards moved for, it appeared that the Bengal government, the directors, and the board of controul were also implicated. This was however not the ground of his abandoning the case. He thought the hon. baronet ought to con–fine himself to the reprinting of the papers before produced. If he moved for new ones, and was retorted upon in the manner he had been, he would subject himself to be called over the coals, and the business might be delayed longer than he could at present have any idea of. When he brought forward the charge, however, he would experience every support that he could give him
Sir John Anstrutherhoped that the hon. baronet would declare what was his object,

1023
and against whom his motion was to be di–rected. Did he mean to attack lord Welles–ley, or lord Powis, or the directors, or the board of controul, or the late ministers? He wished to know what he was driving at, if he knew it himself, for he seemed to have some doubts about the matter. In the wean time he hoped that the house would not allow the characters of the executive officers to be complimented away by the praises which the right hon. gent. and the hon. baronet, had thought proper to bestow on each other. He contended that the conduct of the executive officers had been approved of by the directors and the board of controul, the cabinet, and this house. They had only executed the orders they had received, and the responsibility therefore did not rest with them, though he did not admit that they had by any means even lent themselves as instruments to any improper act. He then adverted to the in–justice done to persons accused, by allowing the charge to hang over. He also said, that from his own knowledge, he could affirm that the revival of old charges was attended with great mischief to our Indian govern–ment. It shook the confidence of the na–tives in its stability, and nourished a desire of change, which prevailed in a particular degree in these people, and was generally the case in arbitrary governments. He wished to know specifically what was the design of the hon. baronet before he gave his assent to the motion?
Mr. Grantsaid, though he did not flatter himself that much benefit would result from this discussion, yet, as a friend to discus–sion in general, and considering the house of commons as the only security which the inhabitants of British India had for protec–tion and redress, and the only place in which an investigation into the affairs of India could be instituted, it was necessary that he should take notice of some assertions which had been made in the course of this debate. It was asserted, that they had recommended, if not ordered, On revolution which took place in India, by the assumption of the territories of the Carnatic, to which it must first be answered that they disclaimed all interference in the nature of compulsion, and he read an extract from their minutes, by which such an interference was expressly disclaimed, and then asked how such a proceeding should be tortured into an approbation, much less an authority, for the revolution which took place? He could state, that the court
1024
of directors never did approve of that mea–sure; for the sake, therefore, of having the conduct of the court of directors investi–gated, he was friendly to the present motion. He was very glad that the friends of lord Wellesley were so desirous of entering into this investigation. He declined, however, to enter into the merits of the revolution in 1801, and he could speak with the greater freedom, as he had not at that period any share in the direction. It was to be obser–ved, however, that the board of controul took that affair into their own hands, and superseded altogether the court of direc–tors. And the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Anstruther) opposite to him, was completely mistaken in considering the secret commit–tee, and the court of directors, as being connected; it was, in point of fact, a com–plete mistake, in form as well as in sub–stance. The secret committee was the express, direct, and immediate organ of the board of controul. Their proceedings were utterly unknown to the court of directors. The secret committee was subject in no way or respect whatsoever to the court of direc–tors, who were indeed entirely ignorant of the proceedings of the secret committee. This act, therefore, of the secret committee, which the right hon baronet treated as the act of the court of directors, was an act in which they had no share, of which they had no knowledge,—an act with which they had not the slightest concern; and it was an act on which the board of con–troul had exercised its authority; and as that board was superior in India concerns, it became extremely difficult for the court of directors even to express an opinion, much less exercise a judgment on a deci–sion of the board of controul, without incurring the imputation of resisting superior authority. It was liable to the objection of leading to great derangement in their affairs. Another reason which prevented the inter–ference was, the subject of the asumption of the Carnatic had become the subject of parliamentary enquiry, which superseded both the board of controul and the court of directors
Sir John Anstrutherdenied that he wished to oppose enquiry. He only said that it ought not to be allowed to drag on for years. The court of directors had instruct–ed their officers to pay the same deference to the orders of the secret committee as to those of the directors themselves, and as the secret committee had approved of the conduct of lord Wellesley, he was fully

1025
warranted in saying that the directors through them had expressed their approbation of it
Mr. Grantdenied that the court of directors submitted themselves entirely to the guidance of the secret committee
Sir Arthur Wellesleysaid, he was disposed to pursue the same line he had adopted last session, and was, therefore, willing to accede to every motion for papers that could enable the house to decide upon the whole case. Neither would any friend of his noble relation give any opposition to the production of such information. But it was his opinion, that all the paper should be reprinted, and with that view he should feel it his duty to move, as well for those omitted by the hon. baronet, as for any others that might be necessary of the elucidation of the transaction. He wished the house to consider the situation of his noble relation with this charge hanging six years over him. It appeared by the papers, that the court of directors had sent out instructions to take possession of the Carnatic, at the commencement of the war with Tippoo Sultan, and not to restore it to the nabob. It was rather extraordinary, therefore, that a charge should be brought for a transaction commanded and approved by the court of directors, and sanctioned by his majesty and by act of parliament
Mr. R. Thorntoncomplained of the accusations thrown out against the directors without documents on the table to warrant them. He regretted the delay which had taken place, but maintained that no blame rested with the directors. The reasons given by the right hon. gent. over the way (Mr. Sheridan), for his abandoning the case, did not appear to him satisfactory. When he had brought forward the question, he thought he was going hand in hand with him, but he soon found that he himself was to be accused. There were some points with respect to the government in India that required the interference of that house, which was the dernier resort in such cases. But the court of directors were not the proper persons to become accusers. If they put themselves forward in this way, they might do a great deal of mischief to our interests in India. From the nature of their situation, it was not expedient in any view that they should come prominent–ly forwards, unless assured of effectual support. The hon. baronet (sir J. Anstruther) had himself before gone a considerable
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way back in an enquiry into Indian trans–actions. It was but reasonable that he should allow the same privilege to others. He was glad that the subject had come un–der investigation, and was not much alarm–ed as to the result. He denied that the directors had given any instructions to sanc–tion the revolution in the Carnatic. The court of directors were quite distinct from the secret committee, which was not re–sponsible even for such papers as had its own signature
Mr. Tierneywould not object to the re–printing of the papers which had been be–fore produced, and agreed that that house was the dernier resort in such cases. But he lamented that the subject had been now brought forward, as he could see no good that could result from it. It had before been properly brought forward, and he lamented that it had not then been proceeded in. He begged of the house to con–sider the consequences. The subject was one of the deepest importance, particular–ly with a view to the transfer of property, which had taken place since the transac–tion which had been adverted to. But, at the same time, he admitted that even the inconvenience that might result from the disturbance of property, ought not to deter the house, if it was called upon, from investigating the case, and applying its censures where censure was due. He was sorry that the hon. baronet had not men–tioned more distinctly whom he intended to accuse. He admitted that the board of controul was responsible for the secret committee, but he denied that this committee was such a nullity as some might suppose from the description of it which had that, night been given, and he cautioned gentlemen against speaking of it in these terms, as they might, by these means, propagate an opinion that it was useless. He gave no opinion respecting the merits of the transactions. He agreed to the motion of re–printing the former papers; but it was doubt–ful whether the others could be granted, till the hon. baronet should state what they were, and till he had an opportunity of examining whether they could be produced without detriment to the public service
Lord Folkestonecontended, that with respect to the assumption of the govern–ment of the Carnatic, blame lay some–where, and that it was a matter of serious investigation to ascertain where all the censure of that most extraordinary revolu–tion should devolve. The hon. baronet

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had been pressed to state distinctly his ob–ject in calling for those papers; he did not think this fair; it might be impossible for the hon. baronet distinctly to state his object, until he had been previously fur–nished with the necessary evidence by those papers; but before that evidence should be furnished, he thought it a subject of too great magnitude to warrant any member in distinctly pledging himself to a specific charge
Mr. Hiley Addingtonbegged gentlemen to recollect, that there had been more pa–pers relative to India called for, and pro–duced in the last session of the late parlia–ment, than for six sessions before; he was entirely of opinion, that in calling for pa–pers upon any subject, the object should be distinctly stated; he acquitted the hon. baronet of being actuated by any sinister motives of party or vanity in bringing forward his present motion, and praised the manly and ingenuous conduct of the gallant general (Wellesley) in every ques–tion relating to Indian enquiry
Mr. S. Stanhopethought it a most extra–ordinary mode of opposing the hon. baro–net's motion, by refusing to assent to the production of the papers called for, until the object had been distinctly stated, which object the papers in question were alone to ascertain. He complained of a radical defect in the present state of the go–vernment in India, and knew not whether more governments had been subverted by it in the East or by Bonaparte in the West
Sir T. Turton,in reply, said that when it appeared from the arguments upon both sides, that it was a question whether the court of directors approved or disapproved of the conduct of their servants in In–dia, he did not think a stronger argument than this very doubt could possibly be advanced in favour of the motion he had submitted to the house: his object was substantial justice, and in the pursuit of that, however deficient in other respects, he should not be found defective in zeal diligence, and perseverance. As to the voluminous papers with which he had been threatened from the other side, if such paper contributed in the least degree to the defence of the accused, he himself should gladly second the motion for their production. He had been urged to state distinctly the object of his motion; it was impossible to state in a case of such magnitude, on whom the evidence found in these papers might especially bear; and it was, there-
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fore, in the present stage of the business, im–possible for him distinctly to pledge him–self, further than avowing it as his inten–tion to submit a motion committing the house to a censure of the East-India com–pany, or its servants, in the assumption of the government of the Carnatic. The hon. baronet concluded with an appeal to the feelings of the house, in which he alluded to the melancholy fate of the deposed prince, who, he could prove, had perished in a dungeon
Sir A. Wellesleyexplicitly denied that the prince, as stated by the hon. baronet, was imprisoned in a dungeon, or died by any other than natural causes. He thought it became a gentleman of the hon. baronet's profession, to be more cautious in ma–king such charges
Sir T. Turtonmaintained that the papers fully bore him out in his assertion, though he did not in the least implicate lord Wel–lesley in that dark transaction
Mr. Fullerthought the enquiry should be fully gone into
Mr. Sheridan,while he acquitted in the ful–lest manner the noble lord (Wellesley), had not a doubt upon his mind, that the young prince came to his death by foul and ex–traordinary means.—The motion was then put and carried