Sitting of 10 February 1807

MINUTES.
On the motion of lord Howick, the call of the house, which stood for this day, for the purpose of insuring a sufficient attendance of members to form the ballot for the Maidstone Election committee, was deferred to Thursday. On the motion of lord Howick, it was ordered, that the Rev. M. Marlow, D. D. be desired to preach before the house on the 25th instant, the day of Public. Fast.—The following are the names of the gentlemen on the reduced list, forming the committee to try the merits of the election and return for the Borough of Maidstone. Hon. W. Maule, J. Vaughan, esq. Hon. F. Robinson, Hon. J. Cust, John Patteson, esq. John Palmer, esq. W. Loftus, esq. J. Fuller, esq. Hon. E. Stewart, G. T. Steward, esq. Sir M. B. Foukes, T. Godfrey, esq. T. Shelly, esq. The parties having waved their right of appointing nominees, the committee retired, according to the provision of the act of parliament in such case, and themselves chose sir R. Peel, and the hon. W. Pole. The whole were then sworn at the table.

SINECURE PLACES AND PENSIONS.
Mr. Biddulphrose and spoke as follows: I rise, sir, in pursuance of the notice I had the honour of giving on a former night, to submit to the consideration of the house, a motion, connected with a system of economy, and, in its import, similar to that proposed by an hon. friend of mine in the year 1797. In introducing this motion, I can with truth affirm, that my mind is totally uninfluenced by those passions which may be supposed to agitate public men, in bringing forward plans of retrenchment in the national expenditure, or motions for the reduction of places and pensions. The strong conviction in my mind, that a great practical benefit would result to the country, and to the revenue of the country, is the most striking inducement with me for submitting my motion to the consideration of the house. How that benefit would be best procured, has also been the subject of my inquiry, and in referring to the pre-
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cedent and example of the motion of 1797, I find, that at that period, the appointment of a Committee of Finance to investigate public establishments, and to sift official abuses, was considered the best and most appropriate method of proceeding. That my present object would be best attained by moving for the appointment of a similar committee, I am inclined to conclude; particularly when I consider the advantage likely to result from an attentive persual of the valuable documents of the former, from the light which the labour and industry of that committee have actually thrown on the subject, and, finally, from the eventual good, which the application of that information, assisted by the result of the intermediate time and circumstances, must in any future inquiry produce. There were certainly many impediments, and difficulties of no trifling nature, in the way of that committee. To some of their inquiries, they found it impossible to get even an answer; and in some cases, particularly those connected with Scotland, they were not only kept in ignorance of the necessary answers to their interrogatories, but were absolutely rendered incapable of extending their researches, from the obscurity and vagueness in which such objects of their inquiry were involved. Without troubling the house with any general reasoning on the necessity of adopting a measure of the nature I propose, I will at present confine myself to the statement of some particular cases, and be satisfied with drawing the attention of the house to those immense emoluments which are attached to offices in the Exchequer, and to other branches of the national establishment, in the investigation of which, the appointment of a committee, founded on a Resolution similar to that of 1797, would, in my opinion, be calculated to produce great and important benefits. The first thing that strikes the public mind, as requiring retrenchment, is the immense emoluments enjoyed by some individuals in the department of the Exchequer. It is difficult to make the public believe that the grants of these emoluments are unalterable, and there are circumstances which induce me to think they are not. The act of parliament of 1782 allowed to two of the Tellers of the Exchequer the antient fees of their offices, but limited the other two to a salary of 4000 l. a year. This act did nothing more than to leave the fees on the basis of the regulations and practice of the Exchequer. It

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therefore becomes necessary to inquire what these regulations and that practice were. By the act of 4th William and Mary, the barons of the Exchequer were directed to inquire what were the ancient and legal fees. Those fees were reported and vested by law in the officers. But notwithstanding the title by usage, and the investment by law, an alteration was made in 1702. In that year great exertions being required, the sum which was raised for the public service, 1,600,000 l. was considered so great as to render it proper to look to some reduction upon the Exchequer fees, and in consideration of the largeness of the sum a reduction was made. In 1744, on the same principle, the supplies being larger than at any former period, 6,600,000 l. being raised for the general service of the year, besides 2,200,000 l. for the army, it was agreed by the officers of the Exchequer to reduce the fees one-third. The law and the practice of the Exchequer ought to be no more a bar to the reduction of the fees now, than they were then; and certainly the vast increase in the amount of the public expences, and every other reason, make much more strongly in favour of the reduction at this moment. My motion will embrace all offices and all places, and all incomes deprived from the state. There is one department in particular to which the inquiry I recommend will apply with particular effect. I mean that of the Courts of Justice. In the Report of the Committee of Finance, sinecure offices to the amount of 26,500 l. in than department, are pointed out as admitting of total reduction. The committee, in pointing out the propriety of this reduction, and the proper mode of carrying it into effect, quote the opinion of lord Hale, saying, that timely amendment did much good, and prevented much evil, particularly in things connected with the general weal; but that the reform ought not to be made abruptly, nor all at once; but gradually, with as much attention as possible to the rights of individuals. I do not find that any thing has been done upon this Report, or that any part of its recommendations has been carried into execution. Ten years have elapsed, since the Committee in its 27th report, pointed out as worthy of consideration, whether these offices should be abolished as they became vacant, and yet nothing has been done in compliance with that recommendation. Lord Hale says
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of offices executed by deputy, why are they continued if they are unnecessary; and if they are necessary, why should they not be executed at the charge which is found sufficient for the deputy? Why is the state to be burthened with immense salaries to unemployed principals, who do nothing but bear the name of the office? In the 26,000 l. I alluded to, no service whatever is done. In the thirty reports of the Committee of Finance, there are several other instances of offices of the same kind, but I do not think it necessary to trouble the house with detailing any more than the principal branches, in which the propriety of reform is obvious. My motion will embrace every branch of the Public Expenditure. The powers I propose to give to the committee are the same as those granted to the committee of 1797. The Pension List was not referred to the committee of that time, neither would I have it expressly referred to the committee now proposed; but my motion will be framed in such a manner that the committee will be enabled to attend to that branch of Expenditure, as well as to every other. I shall conclude with moving 'That a committee be appointed to consider of what saving can be made by the reduction of useless Places, Sinecure Offices, Exorbitant Fees, and every other retrenchment that can be made in the expenditure of the public money.'
Lord Folkestonesaid, that he had the honour to second the motion.
Lord Henry Pettyrose and observed, that it gave him the highest satisfaction, that whatever difference of opinion might exist between himself and the hon. gent. as to the words of the motion, yet between him and the hon. gent. and not only that, but between the hon. gent. and all his majesty's ministers, there was a perfect coincidence of sentiment upon the grounds of the present motion. For if there was any thing upon which it might be expected that all should concur, it was this, that the strictest economy should be preserved in the management of the public money, and that all places, offices, and pensions, should be reduced to the smallest charge, consistent with the proper administration of the affairs of the nation. Therefore any measure which had that object in view came recommended by a strong similarity and union of sentiment amongst his majesty's ministers, as well as amongst others. But if he had the satisfaction to concur with

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the hon. gent., if so far an union of sentiment prevailed, he hoped that there would also be an union of sentiment upon another position, essential to the welfare and stability of government, which was this, that in every country there ought to be rewards for services performed; that it was not fitting that means should be wanting of granting adequate remuneration for general services, and that such rewards ought to form part of the establishment of all well-regulated governments. The only point, then, to be considered was, how far these rewards existed in the manner they ought, for though places ought to exist for the purpose above-mentioned, yet it was right that they should be limited, and they confined to their proper object, and that they should not be allowed to run to excess, either through abuse or neglect. That such excess did formely exist, especially with regard to sinecure places, a point to which the hon. gent. had particularly adverted, he was perfectly aware. But he begged leave to remind the house, that during a course of 20 years it had been a constant object to reduce and confine such places within their proper limits. Such was the object of the commission of accounts established at the close of the American war, when there was so great and so just a public clamour on this subject, a commission which had in the most able manner discharged the duties entrusted to it. In the administration which succeeded, and concluded the peace of 1783, an administration of which a near and dear connexion of his (his father, then lord Shelburne) formed a part, this object was not lost sight of, and the plan was laid for an inquiry, which was carried into effect some time after. It was not lost sight of during the administration of Mr. Pitt, a committee having been appointed in 1786, and then another in 1796, over which the right hon. gent. who now filled the chair (Mr. Abbot) had presided with so much credit to himself and so much advantage to the country. Thus it had been the constant study, for a length of time, to reduce the public expenditure with respect to offices, as far as it could be done consistently with the reservation of certain places of reward for the public servants. If the country had been in the situation of one laying down, for the first time, the commencement of a system of expenditure, it might perhaps be more wise to confer rewards on the higher classes of public ser-
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vants by means of large pensions, than by sinecure places. But when these places were conisdered as connected with the history of the country, and with the different branches of the Constitution from their first origin, it was unquestionably desirable to preserve and continue them. He was therefore not disposed to count much upon any reduction that could now be made in Sinecure Places and Pensions, if it was determined not to reduce them below what the public dignity and public service required them to be kept up to. Perhaps the manner in which the prerogative of the crown was exercised in bestowing such offices, might not be in every instance satisfactory. But the improper use of the prerogative in these instances, was no reason way the power of using it better should be altogether done away. If there were improprieties in the conduct of the judges, that was no reason why the administration of justice should be stopped. If there were improprieties in the conduct of those at time head of the military department, that was no reason why the country should be left without an army. In the degree then in which such places were necessary to reward public services, these places ought to be maintained. Why then, what had been the result of all the inquires on this subject? He might state generally, first, that all sinecure places in the customs had been abolished. Such also had been the case with regard to the excise. With regard to the great offices of state, some had been abolished, and a certain chamberlainship in the exchequer, and all the offices, with the exception of a very few, had been regulated by commutations being agreed upon, instead of fees, which were liable to a perpetual increase with the increase of the public expenditure. The profits of the tellers and the auditors were thus limited. For the purpose of being perfectly correct in what he had seated with regard to the abolition of sinecure offices in the customs, he ought to have observed, that one place of this nature, that of collector outwards, belonging by patent to a certain noble duke (Manchester) had been reserved. The fact was then, that sinecure places to a certain number were necessary to be retained in order to reward those who had given their time, and industry, and their talents to the public service, in offices which did not afford an adequate remune ation, and to afford them a proper suppor

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in their retirement. But he could not quit this part of the subject, without alluding to the principles which had been admitted during the progress of Mr. Burke's bill. The principles then admitted were, that those who held offices by grant from the crown, had as strong a title to them, as any proprietor of land had to his landed estate, and that to destroy the one title would be as great an invasion of property as to destroy the other. The reform could apply only with respect to the future holders, and in that view it had been applied in every practicable instance. But where offices were granted in reversion it could not be applied. The reform must remain suspended till the reversion should have expired. There were two principal offices granted in reversion. One was that of Register of the Admiralty Court, granted to lord Arden, with the reversion to a member of that house (Mr. Perceval). The other was that of the clerk of the parliament, held by a right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose) over the way, the reversion to his son. But when these reversions expired, he hoped that measures would be taken to regulate these offices also.—So much with regard to offices in England, where a good deal had been done, except in the law offices, which formed the subject of the 27th report of the commissioners of accounts. It was true that there were a great number of law offices which had been stated by them to be unnecessary, and which might be subject to ameliorations; though they had stated, at the same time, that these being perquisites of the great law officers, the lord chancellor and the lord chief justice, they ought not to be deprived of the patronage and the means of providing for their families which they afforded, without a material increase of their salaries. It was true that the salaries of the judges had since that time been augmented, but he did not know whether the salaries of the lord chancellor and lord chief justice had been raised, so as to compensate for a loss of this sort, and yet it was obvious that the augmentation of their salaries ought to have been particularly attended to, in case of their being deprived of these places and this patronage. However, this was a case, which had certainly been less attended to than others, and therefore, with respect to this the hon. gent's motion came recommended by all the authority that could he derived from this report. A great deal then had
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been done with respect to England. But as to Ireland, he admitted that much as yet remained to be done. But it would be recollected that a committee had been appointed 3 years ago, on the motion of the right hon. gent. who then held the office of chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland, the object of which was to inquire into the mode of collecting the revenue in Ireland; and although he (Lord H. Petty) was then on the opposition side of the House, yet he took an opportunity of expressing his perfect approbation of that measure, and of promising all the support which he could give. That commission was now actually sitting in Dublin, and its reports were on the table of the house; and the house must have seen with satisfaction that his right hon. friend (sir John Newport) had brought in a bill to abolish no less than 38 offices, in pursuance of the suggestions in these reports. Every one who suggestions his right hon. friend, or the noble lord at the head of the finance department of that country, or the noble duke who was at the head of the government there, would feel satisfied that all useful suggestions would be taken up by them, and immediately acted upon. Why, then, great progress had been made here also. The only point of difficulty was the practice of granting offices in reversion, which he highly disapproved of, especially in the case of offices where the fees were liable to increase with the increase of the expenditure, as this was in some measure entailing abuses. He knew it would be said that ministers were unfriendly to offices in reversion, and would wish to abolish them because they could not get them for themselves. To those who Were of this opinion he would say, that they might discover a more obvious method by which ministers might secure such advantages, if they were so disposed, and that was by making other offices reversionary. But he had the satisfaction to state, that since the present ministry had come into power no offices had been granted in reversion. They had abstained from this practice, having in contemplation the means by which reforms might be accomplished here also, and an end put to the iniquitous effects that resulted from such a mode of proceeding. Things, then, being in this state, there remained little to be done except with respect to the courts of law the offices of which formed the subject of the 27th report. He was not aware that any sinecure

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of this description had been created since that report had been made. But that other more loose abuses had not taken place he was not prepared to deny, knowing as he did the tendency to abuse which existed where the expenditure was so large as it was in this country. All, therefore, that the government could do was, to use every effort to prevent the growth of such abuses; and to check them where they existed. It had accordingly given an instruction to the auditors of accounts to observe such abuses, and to report upon them from time to time to the treasury. He would read the words of the warrant in which this instruction was conveyed. Here the noble lord read the words, which contained an instruction to the auditors to attend to and report specially upon all abuses and frauds committed at home or abroad. This was part of a warrant under which the auditors acted, and by this means he hoped that a strong and permanent check upon abuses would be established. Why, then, it appeared that great progress had been made in destroying offices, and that there was a disposition in the government to prevent the unnecessary renewal of them. But though little remained to be done, yet he did not contend that that little ought to remain undone. He had no objection, therefore, to the appointment of a committee which should finish a business in which so great a progress had already been made. He was of opinion, that with a slight alteration in the words, the motion deserved the assent of the house, and that a committee should be appointed to inquire into what had been done, and what remained further to be done towards the accomplishment of this great object. Whatever might be the merits of former commissioners, it would be recollected that they were fallible, and that in the best institutions there would be some failure. He expected from this examination, that a foundation would be laid for finally eradicating great abuses in the management of the public money, and that the most material benefit would accrue with regard to the system of public economy. Therefore he not only agreed in the principle of this motion, but also approved of the policy of appointing such committees, at different successive periods, to examine into the real state of the public expenditure. He trusted he had satisfied the house that all due attention had been paid to economy, and there was a disposition in the govern-
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ment to promote that important object by every means in their power. The noble lord concluded by proposing an alteration in the motion, so that, as amended, it stood thus, 'That a select committee be appointed to examine and consider what regulations and checks have been established, in order to controul the several branches of the public expenditure in Great Britain and Ireland, and how far the same have been effectual; and what further measures can be adopted for reducing any part of the said expenditure, or diminishing the amount of salaries and emoluments without detriment to the public service; and that they do report the same, with their observations thereupon to the house.'
Mr. Wilberforcethought the liberality and candour manifested by his noble friend who had just sat down, particularly entitled him to the thanks of the country. But at the same time he must say, that his noble friend's opinion as to the necessity of substituting pensions for the established sinecures, struck him with surprise. If the committee so properly moved for, should be appointed with the impression which such an opinion, from so high an authority, was calculated to produce, he confessed that his good wishes towards that appointment would be considerably abated. No principle would be more injurious in its operation, according to his judgment, than that of voting to each public officer a certain remuneration for his services, instead of leaving these sinecures to be applied to such purposes, for which only they could be allowed to exist. He disapproved of the system of voting pensions, because he very much feared that under that system the amount of reward would depend too much on ministerial influence or popular clamour, or might be too much calculated to induce the one or irritate the other. He wished rather that the sinecures might remain for those to dispose of, who were best qualified to appreciate the merits to which they ought to be granted, and there was more likelihood that they would be groperly granted. That talents devoted to the service of the state were by any means so well rewarded as the same talents would be in any of the liberal professions, either of the church, medicine, or the bar, he was fully prepared to deny. He meant of course pecuniary reward; but that was not the object of public men, for their great and generous minds must look to views of

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a higher nature, and be actuated by motives of a noble character. Indeed, it was for the credit of the country to mention that there were many who had giving up the most lucrative professions, to follow the course to which these lofty motives were calculated to lead; therefore such men were entitled to the liberal consideration of parliament and the country, when there should be no longer occasion for their services, and when they should happen, from their circumstances to require such liberality. Men who had long occupied, and ably acted in, the high offices of the state, should not be allowed to fall from the connections and rank to which they had been accustomed, in consequence of the illiberality of those whom they had served. Such a thing would be degrading to the character of the country, and he trusted it would never be allowed to occur. Of the principle avowed in his noble friend's speech he most sincerely approved; he the more rejoiced to hear the principle stated, because from the knowledge he had of his noble friend's disposition, he was perfectly confident that it would be acted upon. He was fully persuaded that his noble friend was as well disposed rigidly to apply the principle of economy as any minister could be. At the same that he mentioned this, he could not omit stating, that which might be unknown, that his noble friend's predecessor (Mr. Pitt) carried the principle of economy as far as was practicable, never over-looking any opportunity of retrenchment, or of the abolition of useless places. Indeed he knew that his late right hon. friend had, without ever mentioning a word about it in that house, abolished between 30 and 40 places in the customs and excise, to which his noble friend had alluded in the course of his speech, although his right hon. friend was at the time pressed by many of his friends and connections, to grant those places to others. But no, his late right hon. friend preferred the principle of economy to the gratification of his friends, and the merit of that great man was, that he did such meritorious things without having it ever known to the world. Like the man of Ross, he "did good by "stealth, and blushed to find it fame." The hon. member conceived that motions like that before the house should not be at all considered as acts of opposition to ministers. From the conduct of his noble friend this evening, it was evident that ministers themselves did not so consider them. On the contrary, their candour clearly
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shewed the alacrity with which they were ready to receive a proposition of economy from any quarter of the house, which must encourage every man to suggest to them the means which might serve to carry their acknowledged principles into effect. With, however, this concurrent wish of all to pursue economy with every practicable industry, he deprecated the application of it to the purpose of producing any reduction of the salaries allowed to our public officers, who so far from being over-paid, were many of them he was prepared to say, with regard to money, very much under-paid. Considering their situation, connections, names, and talents, the remuneration was, he had almost said, quite too little. In rewarding such men, parliament should ever bear in mind fidelity towards the people, and liberality towards the officers, both which tending to the same point, must urge them to provide that the character of the one should not be degraded, by allowing the comfort and interest of the other to be neglected.
Lord H. Pettyrose to explain a point upon which he had been evidently, without any intention, misinterpreted by his hon. friend. In his observations with respect to the comparative propriety of pensions and sinecures, he was in fact but endeavouring to answer an argument, which appeared to him likely to arise in the disscusion. But he expressed no opinion. His argument was merely speculative upon the question, whether if we were about to constitute a new system, it would not be better to invest, not that house, as his hon. friend seemed to think, but the crown, with the power of granting pensions as rewards to meritorious public officers, than to create nominal offices for the purpose of such rewards. But those offices being already in existence, rendered the case different, and their continuance was connected with the honour of the crown, and with the interests and good faith of the country. It was however, the duty of that house to take care that such a system was not carried to any unjustifiable excess, by the appointment, from time to time, of such committees as that which was now moved for. The noble lord concluded with moving an amendment to his motion, that Ireland should be included in the inquiry.
Mr. Wilberforceprofessed his unwillingness to mis-state any sentiment of his noble friend's, and that he was quite satisfied with his explanation.
Mr. Fawkes,in a maiden speech, declared, that this was a motion upon which, consistently with his own principles, or his duty to his constituents, he could not content himself with giving a silent vote. He hoped, however, that in his first attempt to engage the attention of the house, he should meet with that indulgence which was usually extended to a member rising under similar circumstances. Notwithstanding all the efforts that had been made, and all the expences incurred, in endeavours to rescue our neighbours from subjugation, there still remained to this country sufficient means and resources to enable us to cope with all the adversaries with whom we had, and might have, to contend, if only they should be wisely administered and economically applied. He was persuaded that the country possessed ample means to meet every emergency, and to secure us against every possible danger. But the only means of obtaining this desirable end was, that the government should shew to the people that they were determined to rectify every abuse, and manifest a determination to ameliorate the condition of the people. When he considered the actual slate of the country, labouring under a grievous weight of burthens, when he called to mind the declarations made at different times by persons high in office, that the people would be called on to sacrifice, not only the comforts, but even the necessaries of life, for the support of the present contest, he should not think that he performed his duty to those who sent him there, if he did not give his entire and cordial support to the motion then before the house, and every other motion of the same description. The noble lord on the bench below him, had said, that it was desirable to continue some sinecure places, as rewards and retreats for meritorious public officers. Whenever gallantry should be displayed, whenever diligence should be exerted, whenever talents should be exercised in the service of the country, whenever eminent merit should be manifested in the conduct of its affairs and interests, he should not be disposed to quarrel with the grant of adequate and liberal rewards in such cases. But these were times when the public money ought not to be lavished upon persons who had not performed any service to deserve remuneration. The people of this country were fully sensible of the blessings that they enjoyed, and of the dangers that threatened
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them; and they would be ready to make every effort in support of the present contest. But they had a right to expect indemnity for the past, and security for the future; they had a right to expect a re-rigid economy in the future application of the public money, not, however, that paltry economy that would narrow the scale of public exertion, and paralise the efforts of the country; but such an economy, as without confining the indispensable services of the state, would husband the resources of the nation. For the practice of such economy he looked with confidence to the gentlemen on the bench below him. He had no hesitation in uttering this sentiment, because it flowed from a pure source; the conviction which arose from the manner in which they had received and treated this motion. He trusted that the plan of reformation, which had been so often talked of, was now at length commenced, and that as ministers had declared their intention not to grant places in reversion, they would put an end to the abuse for the present, and prevent all future ministers from adopting the practise. They appeared to him disposed not only to preach, but to practise.
Mr. Ellisonhighly applauded the disposition manifested by ministers.#x2014;The amendment being moved,
Mr. Biddulphsaid, that there then was so little of substantial difference between the motion he had the honour to submit and the amendment proposed by the noble lord, that he was not disposed to press his motion. The objects he had in view would be attained by the amendment. He declared the sincere satisfaction which he felt from the sentiments of the chancellor of the exchequer, and had no doubt that those sentiments would be followed up, not in the abridgment of public liberty, for that he deprecated as much as any man; but in the reduction of those sinecures which were known to have gone in some instances to such an enormous extent as to have excited the general and just jealousy of the public.
Mr. Calverthoped that at all events the noble lord and his colleagues would do that which was now in heir power, namely, to prevent the pledging and mortgaging of those sinecure places, which was a system that had heretofore been practised without restraint.—The amendment was then agreed to, and the committee nominated; to whom

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were referred the Reports of the Committees of Finance, and the Commissioners of Accounts, &c.

SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.
A Message was sent to the house by the house of lords, announcing that their lordships had passed a bill, entitled, An Act for the Abolition of the Slave Trade, and to which they desired the concurrence of the house; the bill being laid upon the table,
Lord Howickrose and moved, that this Bill be read a first time; upon which
Mr. George Hibbert,in a maiden speech, said, that he could not suffer a measure of such great and critical importance to pass even over this stage without remark: although in seeking to impress upon the house the duty of giving to it the most calm and solemn deliberation, he should be careful to abstain from any argument concerning the principle or provisions of the bill, for which he knew there would be another and a fitter opportunity. It was a bill that, without question, put to risk our West India commerce, a most important resource of the empire, and of peculiar value at the present moment: nothing that had passed in another house of parliament; nothing in the form of resolutions or opinions of a former parliament; no popular sentiment out of doors, however assiduously and enthusiastically excited, ought to affect their deliberations. To this parliament, to which they were called, the question came unembarrassed and unprejudged, and to many of the members of that house its temperate discussion must be novel. They were not a commitium, a mere organ of the voice of the multitude, but a deliberate body, limited in their number that they might the better deliberate, bound to maintain the rights, and to consult the interests and the wishes of the people, but bound to decide as their consciences should dictate for the good of the whole, after full and free discussion. He trusted, therefore, that gentlemen would come to this subject with minds impressed with its importance, and open to its calm and dispassioned investigation. He was aware of the disadvantages he must encounter in contending with the hon. gent. (Mr. Wilberforce); he could not for a moment pretend to ascend the heights on which the confidence of that house, due to the hon. gent's talents and virtues, had entrenched him; but if he would descend and fight this battle upon the level plain of fact
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and experience, he, (Mr. H.) should feel it his duty to assume the courage to meet him, and to oppose at every step a measure which he believed in his heart to be grounded on a delusive promise of good which it never would accomplish, and to be pregnant with inevitable, immediate, and extensive mischief.
Lord Howickagreed with the hon. gent. in the great importance of the present bill. It was indeed important in the highest degree, not merely to the cause of humanity and justice, but it was also highly important to the real interests of the West India merchants themselves. It certainly would never be argued in that house, that the West India Islands were not an important part of the British empire, and that their interests did not deserve the most serious consideration. When the bill should come seriously to be discussed, it would be considered not only on the ground of humanity, but also of sound policy, as it affected the West India Islands, and the general interests of the empire. He, therefore, wished as much as any man, that this important subject should be considered with calmness and due deliberation. The hon. gent. had spoken of pains taken to raise a popular clamour against the Slave Trade: he, however, knew of no such practices. He knew, indeed, that there had been a most laudable and persevering attention on the part of the hon. gent. (Mr. Wilberforce) who originated the measure, but this attention was never employed to mislead any body, but merely to make the subject generally understood. He had never laboured to excite a prejudice or clamour, but merely to convince the understandings of all dispassionate persons. There certainly ought to be a fair time allowed for the discussion, but when he recollected how much time had been already given, and what notice the persons concerned had already had from the proceedings in the other house, he could not consent to postpone the second reading farther than to Tuesday next; the hon. gent. would then have an opportunity of arguing the subject fully.
General Gascoynethought it could only be from the multiplicity of business in which the noble lord (Howick) was engaged, that it had escaped his notice, that every measure that invention or artifice could devise to create a popular clamour was resorted to on this occasion. The church, the theatre, and the press, had laboured to

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create a prejudice against the Slave Trade. It had even been maintained from the pulpil, that "England could never expect to be victorious in war, while she persisted in such an abominable traffic." Now this doctrine, which certainly ought never to have come from such a place, had beer completely falisfied, for England never was more victorious by land and by sea than in the present reign, and in the present war; and some of those victories had been obtained by men who, in another place boldly professed their opinion to be against this bill. The attempts to make a popular clamour against this trade were never so conspicious as during the late Election, when the public newspapers teemed with abuse of this trade, and when promises were required from the different candidates that they would oppose its continuance. There never had been any question agitated since that of parliamentary reform, in which so much industry had been exerted to raise a popular prejudice and clamour, and to make the trade an object of universal detestation. In every manufacturing town and borough in the kingdom, all those arts had been tried. It was not his intention to speak at present upon the general subject, as he would consider it disrespectful to the lords, if any bill which came down from their house should not at least be read a first time; but as it was a subject respecting which former parliaments had expressed great doubts, and as the bill went to abrogate all the colonial laws of the country, he intreated that the house would give the measure the fullest and most serious consideration.
Mr. W. Plumerbegged leave to set right the hon. gent. who had last spoken; and to inform him, that no one man, in the whole county he represented, ever asked him to pledge himself upon the subject of this bill. He could assure him, that if any man had asked him to pledge himself upon that, or any subject, he would have refused to accept of his vote. He should, therefore, vote quite free and uncontrouled for the abolition of the trade. He did not know what the hon. gent. might have met with in boroughs; but as to cabinet measures, and cabinet ministers, he cared not for any measures which were so denominated. The time was, when a member would have been called to order for having hinted at such things as cabinet measures.
General Gascoynein explanation, said,
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he did not mean to express himself so generally as what the hon. gent. had supposed he had done. He rather meant to say, that there was scarcely a city or borough, that had not imposed restrictions upon the representatives returned.
Mr. T. W. Plummerthought it necessary, that a bill of such general interest should not be rapidly carried through its different stages, but that sufficient time should be given for the consideration of the measure. On which account, he concluded, that the proper time to debate the question would be on the second reading of the bill, which he hoped would be fixed for a day sufficiently distant to admit of members being furnished with every information on this important subject.
Lord Howickwas almost persuaded, that from the number of years which had elapsed since the first discussion of this bill, and from the frequent debates which had since taken place on this subject, as well as the decision of the last parliament, there would be no necessity to postpone its consideration to a more remote period than Tuesday next.
Mr. G. Hibbertwas of opinion this period would not be sufficient to admit a meeting of those merchants, who were, above all others, concerned in the present measure; and therefore requested the noble lord would put off the second reading until this day fortnight.
Lord H. Pettyhoped the humane movers of this salutary and merciful measure, would persevere in bringing it, as soon as convenient, again before the house. It had already been submitted, for above a month or six weeks, to the public, during its discussion in the upper house, from which it had come with every recommendation. As that house undoubtedly contained many of the most enlightened and virtuous statesmen, this was a consideration, which he hoped would have its due weight with gentlemen. He concluded with expressing a wish, that the second reading of the bill should not meet with any unnecessary delay.
Captain Herbertthought with the hon. gent. near him (Mr. Hibbert) that time should be given to consider the consequences arising from the passing of the bill just now read. This bill, he was of opinion, would not effect the abolition of the Slave Trade, but rather would become the ruin of the British Colonies in the West Indies,

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and consequently of our finances in that part of the world. As to the argument resorted to by the noble lord who proposed the motion, he conceived it to be very defective, inasmuch as he was not, nor could he devise how he should be, bound to conform to the decision of the last parliament.
Mr. H. Addingtonthought it necessary to defer the second reading to a more remote day. In which opinion he was supported by Mr. Lethbridge.
Mr. I. H. Brownesaid, that; though the uniform enemy of the Slave Trade, and that from a conviction of its injustice, inhumanity, as well as impolicy, yet, when an innovation was about to be made on the private properties of a considerable portion of this commercial country, he could not think the suggested delay of a fortnight unreasonable. He should, if the house divided on this point, certainly vote for the postponement, and therefore could not be content without expressing himself as he had done, lest he might be supposed an enemy to the abolition of this detestable traffic.
Lord Templeobjected to the day intended for the second reading of the bill, and was at a loss to conjecture the reason of his noble friend's wishing thus to hurry the bill through its stages. He conceived it would be prudent, in a case of this importance, to furnish the house with a printed account of the evidence in the other house. It should be remembered, that this bill was introduced with the blanks filled up; and in this respect, not similar to other bills, on their first reading, which originate in this house. From these circumstances, he was induced to hope the noble lord would concur with him in deferring the second reading for another week.
Mr. Tierneythought there was abundance of time for a meeting of the West India Planters; and the same counsel, if it should be thought expedient to hear counsel on the subject, might be employed in this, as in the other house.
Mr. Babingtonthought a meeting of the West India Merchants could easily meeting called within the time appointed by the noble lord.
Mr. Hibbertwthen moved, as an amendment, that the second reading be fixed for this day fortnight.
Lord Howickwishing above all things, that no pretence should be given for cavil-
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ling, to the enemies of the bill, he would, if the hon. gent. withdrew his amendment, fix the second reading for Friday week; which being assented to, the motion for the second reading on Friday se'nnight, was put and carried.

SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.
The order of the day for the third reading of the bill for the Abolition of the Slave Trade, being read,
Lord Redesdalerose, and observed, that however the preamble of this bill might set out, that the African Slave Trade was unjust, inhuman, and impolitic, and, however it might be considered unjust, inhuman, and impolitic, to emancipate the Slaves in the West Indies, yet he considered the present measure would be the means of producing, in the West India Islands, all the horrors of a revolution that could possibly be conceived. The Abolition of the African Trade, he considered, should go hand in hand with that in the West India Islands; and however desirable an object the total abolition of the trade might be, he yet considered this instantaneous abolition, not only dangerous in itself, but likely to be productive of no particular good. As the bill stood at present, he could not give his assent to it, however he might be inclined to support it upon general principles; had it been a different description of bill, and went gradually to a general abolition of this trade, it should then have met with his hearty concurrence. He felt, that any attempt to withstand the present enthusiasm upon this subject would be in vain; but he could not help remarking, that when a legislature acted enthusiastically, they did not always act wisely, and he did not think that in the faithful and conscientious discharge of their duty, the opposers of this measure had much to answer for.
The Earl of Buckinghamshiredenied that the support which had been given to this measure, was to be attributed to mere feelings of enthusiasm. Mere enthusiasm was not calculated to last for 20 years, during which period this measure had been under discussion. It was, on the contrary, in his opinion, founded clearly on the grounds of justice and humanity, as well as upon a mature consideration of the present state of the West Indies. When a member of the house of commons in the year 1792, he voted for a gradual abolition, conceiving that the persons concerned in the trade ought to have sufficient notice. Now, however, he had no doubt that the trade ought to be immediately abolished, not only because it was contrary to justice and humanity, but also because the abolition
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was the only means of preventing those evils which must otherwise necessarily result from the multiplication, of slaves in the West Indies.
The Duke of Norfolkapproved of the bill, and expressed a confidence that the planters would by a moderate treatment of their slaves, contribute to bring about that state of the colonies which was so much to be desired.
The Earl of Westmorelandwas at a loss to understand upon what principle of logic it was to be proved, that if the slave trade was contrary to justice and humanity, it was not also contrary to justice arid humanity to keep the negroes who had been procured by means of the trade, in a state of perpetual slavery. He was not so mad as to think that liberty ought to be given to the slaves in the West Indies: but he contented, that upon the principles upon which the abolition was now founded, emancipation ought also to follow. If it was however determined finally to abolish the trade, it might at least be conceded to the feelings of the planters, and of those concerned in the trade, to erase the words, declaring it to be contrary to justice and humanity. It was thought, however, by some of the supporters of the bill, that by retaining these words, foreign powers might be humbugged, if he might use the expression, into a concurrence in the abolition. This, however, he did not think at all practicable, and it was surely a consideration of expediency, whether at a time when the continent of Europe was nearly shut against us, we should put an end to our trade with the continent of Africa, and by so doing, greatly injure and distress many persons, and deprive many more of the means of subsistence.
Lord Grenvillewas glad to find that the opponents of this measure were nearly reduced to one argument, and that was, that the bill did not extend to the emancipation of the slaves already on the islands. The attempted application, however, of the same justice and humanity to both cases, resolved itself into this. In abolishing the trade we did justice to the inhabitants of Africa, who were the parties aggrieved, but in giving liberty to the slaves on the islands, we should do the greatest injustice to them in giving them that which they would not know how to use, and which would only be productive to them of injury. That liberty, the blessings of which we were ena-

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bled properly to estimate and appreciate, Would be to them, in their state of ignorance and barbarism, a poison of the most baleful nature—The bill was then read a third time, passed, and ordered to be sent to the House of Commons.