Sitting of 10 August 1807

WEST-INDIA COLONIES.
Mr. Ellispursuant to notice, rose to call the attention of the house to this most important subject. He did not mean to detain the house by going at any length into the question, because it must be obvious to any gentleman who should examine the report of the committee on the commercial state of the West-India Colonies, that some relief was necessary to maintain the interests of those colonies. It would be impossible to carry into effect, during the present session, any remedies to which that house was to be a party, but he must recommend it to the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, to direct his attention to this most interesting subject during the recess, in order that he might be prepared with some means of alleviating the distress of the West-India planters in the ensuing session. He wished to direct the attention of that right hon. gent. to the subject more anxiously, because he had reason to apprehend that it was the opinion of that right hon. gent., that a reduction of the duty upon sugars would not be any relief to the planter. The hon. member then went into a consideration of the Report, to
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shew that all the duty laid on sugars, after a certain amount, fell on the planter, and not on the consumer; and contended that even if the reduction of the duty should not immediately relieve the planter, it would have the effect of increasing the consumption, by which means the market, at present overstocked, might be cleared, and the increase of the consumption would augment the revenue. The employment of sugar in distilleries would also have contributed to the relief of the planters, by adding to the consumption of the article, but the objection that existed against it rendered that impossible. Whilst the market was unrestrained, the price of sugar had kept pace with the rise of the duty, but the contrary had been the case ever since the year 1800. If the ports of Europe were to be shut against them, the planters would have but the home-market to look to, and what would be their prospect with an import of 100,000 l. above the consumption, unless that consumption should be encouraged? Another remedy suggested in the Report he should not then dwell upon, because he did not wish to force his majesty's ministers to any premature declaration upon the subject, nor was he disposed to give rise to any discussion which might assume that intemperate tone that characterized the proceedings in another country. He hoped, if a reduction in the duty upon brandy was in contemplation, that it would be accompanied with a reduction of the duty upon rum. On all these grounds he moved a resolution, "that the house should, early in the next session of parliament, take into consideration the report of the committee on the Commercial State of the West-India colonies."
Mr. Rosejun. seconded the motion. He expressed his conviction of the urgent necessity of the case, and was sorry, that the state of the session would not allow the house to go into it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad no objection to the motion of the hon. gent., and certainly the handsome and candid manner in which he had brought it forward claimed the attention of the house. For himself, he could answer, that the subject should have his most serious attention. He did not think it necessary to go further into the question then, though he should say, that it was impossible to read the Report without feeling how interesting the subject was from the circumstance of so large a mass of property being involved in

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difficulty, not to use any stronger terms. He could therefore assure the hon. gent., that his majesty's ministers would not lose any time that could be profitably applied to this subject, and that next session some measure would be brought forward to obviate the difficulties at present existing.
Mr. Lushingtonwas glad to find that the attention of the house was at last directed to West-India interests. The circumstances in which the colonies were placed by the abolition of the slave trade, contrary to the opinion of the planters, gave them a claim upon the legislature. The Report said, that unless some immediate remedy were to be applied, ruin would be the consequence to the West Indies; but it would be five or six months before any legislative remedy could be applied, and this was one of the circumstances that contradicted that passage, which ministers had introduced into his majesty's speech at the close of the last session, that the dissolution took place at a time when no material inconvenience to the public business would arise from it.
Mr. Hibbertwas happy to observe the very candid manner in which this subject had been brought forward, and which was much more calculated to produce an impression on the house, than the use of stronger language. The hon. gent. then warmly urged the claims of the West-India proprietors on the legislature, agreeing with the hon. member who preceded him that the dissolution of parliament had been the cause of inconvenience in this respect; and contending, that the justification of that measure was unsatisfactory to the West-India interests, as well as to many persons in that house, who had no ambition to obtain any place in the administration.—The resolution was then put and agreed to.

COMMITTEE OR FINANCE.
Mr. Bankesbrought up the second report of the committee of finance respecting the Bank. The report was ordered to lie on the table; but on the motion that it be printed, the hon. gent. thought it necessary to say a few words. It was not in consequence of any inattention on the part of the committee, that this report had not been presented sooner, but, from the various details into which it was necessary to enter, it had been found impossible to present it sooner to the house. Yet if the report had been laid before the house as early as he at first had reason to expect, it was not his inten-
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tion, nor, he believed, that of any member of the committee, to ground any motion upon it in the present session, because it would require much time for gentlemen to make themselves acquainted with the whole of the circumstances. As an individual member of parliament, and not as a member of the committee, he might feel himself called upon to submit some resolutions to the house on the subject, though such a proceeding might, and probably would, be rendered unnecessary by the regulations which might be adopted by the governors of the company.—The report was then ordered to be printed.—The hon. gent. next presented the third report from the finance committee, respecting sinecure offices, places, and pensions, held under the crown. After the report was brought up and read, the hon. gent. observed, that this report had been prepared by the committee pursuant to an instruction from the house of the seventh of last month. Immediately on receiving the instruction, the committee had issued its precepts, and the return to these precepts formed the matter of the report which was just read. It would be for the house to judge whether any vote should be founded on the report, and he did not know whether he should move that in its present state it should be printed, because returns had been received only for a small part of Scotland, and but one or two from Ireland. He hoped, however, that the whole would be completed by next session, when he should be able to take such a course as might seem most eligible.—The Report was then ordered to be printed.

PETITION OF DR. HIGHMORE.
Mr. W. Smithobserved, that he had a Petition in his hand containing matters of a very grave and serious nature. The statements in the petition were such, that though no man was more disposed than he was to lay any complaint before the house, he would have hesitated to present it were it not that it contained matter of great moment to the public in general. The petitioner Nathaniel Highmore had studied the civil law for 11 years at Jesus college, Cambridge; had performed his exercises with applause, and taken out his degree of doctor. The grievance was, that he was not permitted to practise in Doctors Commons, in consequence of the refusal of the archbishop of Canterbury, to give him the proper authority. He had applied for redress to the

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courts of law, but could not be heard; he had, therefore, no appeal, though rejected without any reason assigned. This was an affair of so serious a nature, that if the allegations of the petition should be proved, it ought, perhaps, to be made the subject of legislative regulation hereafter. But he meant to give no opinion on it at present. He imputed no blame to the metropolitan or his officer. They had not acted without precedent, for it was not the practice for 7 years past to give a reason in cases of rejection. He was happy to see those opposite to him (the advocate-general, &c.) who might, perhaps, explain this business. The practitioners of the common law were admitted by the benchers; but they never rejected without reason, and there lay an appeal to the 12 judges. But the present petitioner had in vain attempted to be heard before any court, and that was the reason that he had now come to parliament for redress. The reason privately assigned for this, for none was publicly assigned, was, that the petitioner was in deacon's orders. Even if owing to this he was to be considered as a spiritual person, it was not a reason why he should not practise in a court of civil and ecclesiastical law, and more especially as the practice was, till the 37th of Henry the 8th, entirely confined to spiritual persons; and the chancellorships of the dioceses were still in the hands of spiritual persons. The public had a strong interest in tins case, for it appeared to be decided by a side wind, that persons in deacon's orders were unqualified for practising in the ecclesiastical court, and that without any legislative provision on the subject. The hon. gent. then adverted to a book written by one of the Civilians, so late as 1804, which contained a passage, stating that, in 1764, a person, in deacon's orders, had applied to archbishop Secker, and was rejected, because it was more agreeable to the doctor's practising; and the reason was, that they apprehended the society would become too numerous if this was permitted. Doctors, therefore, appeared to differ on this point; but this writer seemed to think, that being in deacon's orders was no objection; but that the rejection was because it was more agreeable to the actual practitioners, who were apprehensive that the society would become inconveniently numerous. Now, that a gentleman, who had studied at Cambridge, and therefore might be considered as in this instance standing up for the privileges of
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the university, should be neglected merely because it might be more agreeable to the society that he should be so, was a point that required some attention from the legislature. They apprehended that the society would become inconveniently numerous. As to that point, there certainly appeared no reason to think that those who were to study 11 years at Cambridge before they were admitted, would incommode the society, supposing that this were an argument worthy of any attention. The power to reject without appeal was too great to be entrusted to any man. This gentleman had gone through all the forms, and if the power of rejection without appeal was to be allowed, the principle would go this length, that not only those who desired to be admitted, but those who were already admitted, would be dependent entirely on the archbishop. But it was said that the archbishop had granted his fiat, without knowing that the petitioner was in deacon's orders, and withdrew it upon receiving information that this was the case. This, however, was not alledged publicly. All that was alledged was, that the thing was not agreeable to the practising doctors. He had some other things to state, but as he had taken up the time of the house so long, he would finish for the present, trusting that the house would take up the matter with that seriousness which its importance seemed to deserve.—The hon gent. then presented the petition, which was read at the table. It stated, "that the petitioner, Nathaniel Highmore, doctor and professor of civil law, and member of Jesus college, Cambridge, was, during 11 years, a student of civil law in the university of Cambridge, in consequence of which he obtained the degree of doctor and professor of civil law; and that this degree has ever been held, as by the statute and canon law ordained, a qualification for, and as giving a right to exercise the profession of, an ecclesiastical advocate in the courts of civil and canon law, holden in Doctors Commons, and which courts are placed under the administration of the archbishop of Canterbury; and that the rights, privileges, and immunities of the university of Cambridge are guaranteed and secured by divers royal patents and charters, confirming the same to its different members, and to their several academic degrees; by one of which charters, it is especially provided, that doctors in civil law shall experience neither hindrance nor obstruction in their admission into all ec-

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clesiastical offices, whether with or without the cure of souls, the latter of those, as the petitioner conceives, including the office of an ecclesiastical advocate; and this, together with the other charters of that university, was confirmed by an act of the 13th Elizabeth; and the petitioner further states, that having received from the register of the said university a certificate of such his full and complete qualification, he did, consequence thereof, duly and regularly obtain the fiat of the archbishop of Canterbury, in pursuance of which his grace's rescript, or commission, appointing him to this ecclesiastical office, was made out, and sealed with the seal of the vicar-general of the province of Canterbury; and that having, notwithstanding such his qualification and his commission, been refused admission, to exercise thereunder his spiritual and canonical profession, and having in vain appealed to the archbishop of Canterbury, as also to the visitors of the college of doctors of law, applying to his grace, and to the said visitors, for an hearing of his case, and for redress of the injury by him sustained, he did carry his suit into the court of king's bench, and did apply for a rule to shew cause why a mandamus should not issue for his admission: which application was however refused by the said court, for the reason that the petitioner had not been able to shew his right to be admitted to this ecclesiastical office, on any grounds of which that court could take cognizance; and unable as the petitioner thus was to obtain, in a court of civil jurisdiction, a discussion of his title and of his qualification for this spiritual office, he applied to the archbishop of Canterbury for permission, in a court of spiritual jurisprudence, to plead his case, but with which application for such public hearing it was deemed unadvisable to comply; and that having been thus excluded from the exercise of his canonical and clerical profession, on the ground of his having formerly taken the orders of a deacon, he has, by the refusal of an hearing to his case, been deprived of the opportunity of shewing, in the first place, that he was duly authorized to divest himself, and did divest himself, of those orders and of his clerical character; and secondly, that although he were even still a clergyman, he would not thereby be disqualified; and therefore praying the house, to take his case into consideration, and grant him relief."—On the question, that the petition
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do lie upon the table,
The Advocate-Generalobserved, that as the hon. gent. did not mean to institute any proceeding immediately upon the petition, it would not be necessary for him to go at length into the consideration of it. He had only to state, that the petition was founded upon a great misapprehension of facts, and a great misapprehension of legal principles, as applicable to those facts. He did not mean, however, to charge the misapprehension on the hon. gent.
Mr. W. Smithstated, that the allegations in the petition, were founded on the allegations in an affidavit made in the court of king's bench.—The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.

OFFICES IN REVERSION
Mr. Bankesrose to submit, pursuant to notice, a motion on the subject of granting offices in reversion. If be might assume, and he hoped be might, that the opinion of the house had undergone no alteration on this point since their late resolution, he thought it would be unnecessary for him to trouble them at any great length, as he might expect an unanimous concurrence in the proposition which he was about to lay before them. It would be waste of time for him to address them at any great length, when he expected no opponent: but because he heard that it had been surmised that the object of the bill passed by the house against the granting of offices in reversion trenched on the just prerogative of the crown, and that it would be of no real service to the public in point of economy, he begged leave to say a few words on these topics.—With regard to the prerogative of the crown, he was firmly persuaded that the object of that bill touched upon it but very little, and could not be properly said materially to trench upon it at all. There was at present an opportunity for an undue dissipation in that prerogative, and he was convinced that it would be more full, better exercised, and much more beneficial, if be granting of offices in reversion should be restrained in the manner pointed out by the bill. It would certainly be rather strengthened than weakened, for the gratitude of persons entering upon the reversions, would naturally be small when they considered them in some measure as a vested right, rather than a favour conferred solely for services to the public. There were some instances where these reversions were held by persons perfectly unfit for whatever trust might be attached to the

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offices, and more especially in the cases of reversions held by persons of the other sex. The incapacity was, indeed, in some cases so palpable and glaring, that no ministers would have ventured to recommend the grants in the first instance, without the danger of creating the strongest sensation in the public mind, and of exposing themselves to the severest animadversions.—But it had been said, that in point of economy this object would be of no advantage to the public. Directly it might not. But certainly the committee expected, and he was persuaded that the expectation was well founded, that the establishment of the principle would ultimately lead to much practical economy. Several offices afforded very large emoluments, while they had no duties attached to them. The committee might judge it proper to review these offices, and see reason to subject some to new regulations, and advise the total abolition of others. But, if, in the mean time, the practice was persisted in of granting these reversions, the labours of the committee would meet with increased difficulties; and parliament seeing no prospect of any immediate benefit from whatever arrangements they could propose, might be more callous and indifferent respecting this important object. On these principles, he presumed, the house had adopted the resolution formerly submitted to it on this subject, and on the same principles concurred unanimously in the provisions of the bill winch he (Mr. Bankes) had the honour to carry up to the house of lords. What the fate of that bill had been, the house had an opportunity of ascertaining from the report of the committee appointed to examine the lords' Journals, for their proceedings upon it. It appeared that it had been put off to a term to which there was no probability that this session would extend, and consequently that it might be considered as totally lost for the present. In order therefore, that no inconvenience might arise to the public service, as the legislative measure had failed, and what had before been the prerogative, might now be considered as in force, he thought it the duty of that house to address his majesty, that he would be graciously pleased not to grant any offices in reversion, till both houses should have an opportunity of considering the subject most fully. It was on this ground he proposed to move the address. It might be thought that it would be better to bring in the bill, but both he, and those
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with whom he acted, were of opinion, that the house ought not to resort to any act, which might betray a disposition to usurp the legislative functions of the other house. The constitution had defined the duties of both, and he could not contribute more to the interests of that house, than by confining it within its just and natural limits. It had been suggested to him, therefore, that if a bill were to have been brought in, it might appear to be an attempt to do that by the single act of that house which should be done by the act of the legislature. The mode be proposed to adopt was altogether free from such an objection, and there were several instances on record, in which, whilst enquiries were carried on by that house, it had addressed his majesty to suspend the exercise of certain prerogatives until the result of such enquiries should be known. With such a view he had framed is motion, and if the house was disposed to support the principles when it agreed to the resolution last session, and passed the bill this session, he was convinced that there would be an unanimous concurrence in his motion. He then moved, "that an humble address be presented to his majesty, that he would be graciously pleased not to grant, in any part of his majesty's dominions, any office, place, employment, or salary, in reversion, or for joint lives with benefit of survivorship, until six weeks after the commencement of the next session of parliament." Before the question was put, he had one observation to make, which he would take the liberty to add by way of notice, namely that he meant, in an early period of next session, to move for leave to bring in a similar bill to that which had passed that house this session.—On the question being put,
The Hon. J. W. Wardsaid it was not his intention to enter upon any long discussion at present, and he now only rose to express that surprise and regret which he could not help feeling at the result of the enquiry of the committee which had been appointed to examine the Journals of the lords, relative to their proceedings upon the Reversion bill. From this it appeared, that that important bill had been rejected. But he could not help being very much surprized at this, because it was an unusual thing that a bill which had met with so very slender an opposition [none, none, from several quarters of the house,]—which had met with no opposition in that house, which was directed against public abuses,

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an object so peculiarly necessary in the present circumstances of the countrv, should be rejected in the other house. It was a subject of very great regret, too, with him, both on account of the failure of a most important object, and also on account of the indication that was manifested of a want of disposition in the other house to co-operate with the house of commons in restraining the undue expenditure of the public money. Of course, the house could know nothing of the detail of the proceedings in the other house on that bill; and, if it could be known by any indirect means, it would, of course, be irregular to allude to it here. But, one must naturally suppose that it was maturely considered and amply debated in a full house [hear, bear]; that the whole proceedings were conducted with that gravity and serious deliberation which the importance of the case required, that all the ministers of the crown attended in their places, [hear, hear,] as it was their duty to do, in order manfully and openly to oppose the bill, if they thought it an improper one, or to support it with all their strength, if they were of a contrary opinion! It must at least be supposed that if the house was not so full as it might be, their lordships, out of respect to their own character, and a due regard to the unanimous opinion of the house of commons, would have consented to an adjournment of the debate on the bill for a short time, in order to enable those who might be absent to attend their duty! [hear, hear!] It must be supposed that the discussion on so important a bill was not disgraced by an empty house, lest there should be an appearance of gross neglect, insufferable insolence, or some motives of a worse description! Of course the commons could not be supposed to know who proposed the rejection of that bill, or by whom that motion of rejection was supported. But they might be fully assured that it could not have been by a person who was himself in the possession of a reversionary office of great emolument. [hear! hear!] They might be assured it was utterly impossible that the motion rejection could not have been supported by a person who was already gorged with the spoils and plunder of the country;—by a person loaded with reversions three deep in his family already. Far less could he suppose, that the motion for its rejection should be seconded by another person, whose name stood recorded in the journals
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of the house—as one who, with a keen and avaricious eye sat feasting upon the hopes of reversions to himself, his family, and dependents—[hear! hear!]—or a person whose delight was to hunt after that species of property called by the civilians the hereditas luctuosa. In that house of parliament, which consisted of 400 members, it was quite ridiculous to suppose that only 22 were present at the inglorious and indecent rejection of this bill. He insisted, that notwithstanding the voice of the aristocracy, the house of commons should discharge its duty to the country, and adopt a mode to prevent any thing similar from occurring. He hoped that the house would persevere, and bring forward a similar bill, session after session, until they convinced the house of lords, that the people and the commons of England were not to be trampled upon.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not feel any objection to the motion of his hon. friend, and had risen only in consequence of what had fallen from the hon. gent. who had just sat down, to state why he did not object to the present motion, and the grounds of the conduct which he had observed with respect to this measure, when it had been before in its progress through that house. And he thought this the more necessary after the ingenious course which the hon. gent. who had just sat down had taken, by which, in a way certainly perfectly parliamentary, he contrived to throw out the severest animadversions on the servants of the crown. The reason for the non-attendance of the ministers of the crown probably was, that they had not thought the bill of such importance as necessarily to require their attendance. Two opinions seemed to prevail respecting the importance of the bill. Some thought it of vast importance, with a view to purposes of œconomy, while others considered it formidable, as trenching on the prerogative of the crown. In neither of these opinions did he concur. He thought there was nothing in it that materially trenched on the prerogative of the crown, for he considered it as a matter of nice calculation, whether it increased or diminished the prerogative. If it diminished it in one view, it certainly increased it in another; and where the matter was so nicely balanced, he did not think there could be any reasonable grounds for supposing that the prerogative could be materially trenched upon. As to the economical effects of the bill, he could

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only regard them in the view that had been stated by his hon friend (Mr. Bankes); some offices might in this way be saved for the reward of services. But it ought to be recollected, that this method of reversions was the best way of making provision for the families of meritorious servants of the public, without imposing any new burthens on the public. It was once a mode of providing for lord chancellors, to whom, for instance, the reversion of a tellership of the exchequer might be granted, instead of the provision now in use in such case. On the one side, therefore, he thought there was no great advantage to be expected from the bill in point of economy, and on the other he saw no reason to fear any danger to the prerogative of the crown. If it was assumed, that this was a measure of great importance, on one hand, in point of economy, or on the other with a view to an infringement on the prerogative, it certainly might be considered as the duty of the ministers of the crown to attend. But those who adopted neither of these opinions, would of course act as if they considered it as a matter of no uncommon interest. When, therefore, his hon. friend had proposed the measure, he had not thought it necessary to oppose it, but at the same time he did not regard it in that great and favourable light in which it had appeared to others. The hon. gent. over the way, had expressed his surprise at the rejection of the bill, but he saw no reason why he should be surprized at the exercise of its rights by any branch of the legislature. It was the right of the other house, undoubtedly, to reject or approve, and nothing could be more prejudicial to this house than to assume a dictating authority, and to attempt to do by its own act what could only be properly done by an act of the legislature. As to the disgrace imputed by the hon. member, for the manner in which the measure had been disposed of in another place, he should leave that to others to decide. But certainly no person could be more disinterested on such a question, than one who enjoyed an office that had devolved upon him by a reversionary grant. He had never understood that it was in contemplation to deprive such persons of their offices, and he was therefore at a loss to conceive, why persons of that description might not as well as any other persons exercise their discretion upon the general question. The individual to whom the hon. gent. alluded (lord Arden), and of
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his connection with whom he had himself reason to be proud, had on this and every other occasion exercised his own judgment with a view to the public interest. Nothing could be more unfounded or ridiculous than the statement, not that he had heard in that house, but that had reached his ears from another quarter, that, instead of manfully opposing the measures themselves, ministers had sent others down to reject it. It that statement had made any impression either there or in the country, he was glad to take that opportunity of removing it. There was no candid mind that would not allow, that if he were to be actuated by such feelings, he could never have selected a worse person for the purpose, than one so nearly connected with him as the person that had been alluded to. He was ready, however, distinctly to state, that he certainly had known that it was the intention of that person to oppose the measure, on what appeared to him great constitutional grounds of objection. This he had known from a conversation which he had with that person on the subject, in which that person had expressed surprise that he had suffered the measure to pass that house without opposition. But, if he could not produce any change in that person's opinion, so neither had any been effected in his own, and he admitted that he had felt surprise at the active opposition made to the measure from that quarter. Nothing could be farther from his thoughts than to influence any person on the subject; so far from it, that he had assured his hon. friend in a communication which he had with him since, that whether he should bring forward his motion for an address or not, no act on the part of his majesty's government would be resorted to, that could interfere with his views. Before the present motion was brought, he had given his hon. friend his assurance, that even if he should not bring forward any motion, the practice of granting places in reversion, should be discontinued until the subject should come again fairly before the consideration of parliament. If the motion, however, appeared to him at all to interfere with the just respect due to the other branch of the legislature, he should have resisted it; but it appeared to him to have no such character, he gave it his sincere support.
Mr. Bouverie Mr. Bouverie expressed great satisfaction at hearing what had fallen from the chancellor of the exchequer. He had this

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morning received a letter from his constituents on the very subject now before the house, requesting him to give his strenuous support to the revival of the reversion bill; and indeed the feeling was general throughout the whole country.
Lord Henry Pettyexpressed his difference in opinion from the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, as to the importance of the bill to which the motion then before the house referred. That right hon. gent. as of opinion, that it was a matter of extreme doubt, whether the prerogative of the crown received any additional strength, or was diminished by the provisions of that bill; and also, whether considered as a matter of public economy, it was to be considered as being advantageous or disadvantageous to the interests of the public. In fact, that right hon. gent. thought it to be so unimportant, that he was rather inclined to believe that he did not attend in his place in that house, on the different discussions which took place upon the subject. Now, he (lord H. Petty) was of a very opposite opinion; he did conceive that two most important principles were involved in the consideration of that question. Was it not, in the first place, of some importance, that persons of ability should be appointed to fill different offices in the service of the public; and was it not of some importance also, that the legislature should provide that his majesty should not be deprived of the fair exercise of his prerogative, in selecting such only as he thought qualified to fill the offices? This power, the practice of granting places in reversion might deprive him of, in many instances. And in the second place, was if not of some considerable importance, with a view to public economy that if at any particular time an office should be declared to be useless with respect to public service, and such as ought to be abolished, was it not of some very material importance, that it should be in the power of the servants of the crown to abolish the office upon the office becoming vacant? There was, for instance, a case that occurred last year, in which it would have been well if the measure, which was then spoken of, had been so long in force, as that places were entirely free on the death of the present occupant. The place of Customer of the port of Dublin became vacant by the death of the last officer who filled that place. That was one of the places which it was recommended by the
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committee of finance to abolish. The duke of Bedford then lord lieutenant of Ireland, being influenced by the same spirit of economy which actuated the minds of his majesty's confidential advisers in this country, would have abolished the office if it had been in his power so to do; but, he found on enquiry, that a reversion was entailed upon him; he did then all that was in that case left for him to do; he took care that during his administration of the affairs of Ireland, no reversionary interest of that situation should be granted. The right hon. gent., however, stated, with reference to what was supposed to have passed in another place, that a noble lord, who already possessed a reversionary interest, might be considered one of the most fit persons to speak upon the subject. Now, to make out this case, the right hon. gent. should at least have proved, that a person in such a situation must be completely satisfied that the measure of his desires must of course be full. Until he did this, which would be extremely difficult for him to do, he could not support his proposition. Unfortunately, however, for his argument, an instance was glanced at in the course of the debate, in which the person alluded to had two reversionary interests; and it naturally followed that, where this strong desire, for emolument was manifested, the person might very probably be ready to accept a third, or would even have no objection to the acceptance of a fourth for himself or some branch of his family. In every point of view in which he could consider the subject, he thought it to be such as deserved his utmost approbation, and from every additional discussion that it underwent, he was strengthened in his former opinions on this subject. The house had itself declared its opinion almost unanimously, they had done what they conceived to be essential to the public interest, and he hoped that that house, the great inquest of the nation, would continue to proclaim its opinion with all the weight which it carried with it, to the other branch of the legislature, to the crown, and to the country, in the most firm and dignified manner. He hoped that the other house might by next sessions of parliament, view the subject in a more favourable light, and that then the bill would have a better fate.
Sir John Sebrightowed it to his country, to his constituents, and to himself, to declare his full and entire concurrence in the motion of the hon. gent., and he could not

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but express his extreme surprise at the manner in which the bill had been disposed of in the other house.
Mr. Whitbreadobserved, that the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer had now put the question in a different paint of view from that in which it had before been looked at. He gave his support to the present motion in order that the business of reversions might not interfere with the labours of the committee of finance. Now, this appeared certainly to throw some new light upon the subject; it was to him matter of information, as the silence of his majesty's present ministers heretofore on this subject would rather have inclined him to believe that they were rather averse to the measure, if it had not been for the words that had been put into the king's speech, recommending the continuation of the finance committee. Then, with these apparent inconsistencies before them, he would beg leave to bring to the recollection of the house, that the only measure which was recommended by the finance committee to be put into execution, was that which passed that house in the form of a bill, which was afterwards lost the other house. It was reported that at least all his majesty's ministers who belonged to that house were not present on that occasion, and indeed the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, confessed that he was not certain whether or not he attended all the discussions that took place an that subject. But now that the right hon. gent. did happen to be in his place when the subject was mentioned, he should have thought it would have been more natural for him to have defended the measure on the principle itself, on the same ground that it might be supposed to have been recommended in the speech from the throne. However, at the same time he must declare, that he most cordially agreed with the right hon. gent., that if there had been any thing like a trick in the business; if there had been any thing of management in the matter, the noble relation of that right hon. gent. was, of all others, the most improper person to select for giving the measure any kind of secret opposition in another place. But the right hon. gent. considered it to be one of those indifferent, milk-and-water measures that it was hardly worth his attention; however, to oblige his hon. friend (Mr. Bankes) when he did speak upon it, he gave it a sort of cold support. There was one circumstance, how-
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ever, that was to him a matter of extreme surprise, which happened to escape the notice of his hon. friend (Mr. Ward); it was to him matter of extreme surprise, if it could be possible that the lord chancellor, who delivered the speech in the name of his majesty, in which the labours of the committee of finance were most graciously noticed; if it were possible that the same lord chancellor could afterwards ever have thought of opposing the first fruits of their labour, which was brought before him in the form of a legislative proceeding. It would also be to him a matter of extraordinary surprise, if he should be told that a noble lord, who could not certainly be a stranger to official proceedings, taking up a paper, and on looking at it, expressed his surprise most innocently, saying, "Oh! dear; so the reversion bill has been rejected in the lords!" If he should happen to be informed of such circumstances, he must confess that he should be a good deal surprised. But then, some said that the measure would trench on the royal prerogative, and therefore it was objectionable. Now, he did not hesitate to say, that with him an objection of that sort had very little weight, as he was decidedly of opinion, that in many instances the prerogative of the crown, inasmuch as it obtained influence, ought to be diminished. Some gentlemen, however, took it in another view, and talked of coercing the other house of parliament. This was what could not bear a serious answer—to talk of coercing them was ridiculous. But so much would he say, that it was the acknowledged right and duty of the house of commons, to guard the public purse; and that, as guardians of the public purse, they ought, in a measure of finance, which was peculiarly their province, to persevere until they might possibly at length convince the other house of the strength and propriety of their arguments. He should be glad, if it were possible, that a resolution should be framed, expressive of what appeared to be the unanimous opinion of the house on this subject, that it should be carried up to the house of lords, and that their lordships should then be called upon deliberately to express their opinion on it.—The question was then put on Mr. Bankes's motion, which was carried, nem. con.; and it was ordered that the address should be presented to his majesty by such members of that house as are also members of his majesty's privy council.

GENERAL STATE OF AFFAIRS.
On the motion, that this house at its rising do adjourn to Thursday next,
Mr. Whitbreadrose. He observed, that this country being at present surrounded by the most gloomy prospects which perhaps ever offered to any nation, events were not unlikely to occur which might induce irremediable distress, if the utmost vigour and vigilance were not employed by all the departments of the state to avert the evils that menaced us. In such a crisis, of course, he deprecated the prorogation of parliament; pregnant, as the crisis was, with events which might render it peculiarly desirable for prudent ministers to resort to parliament for advice. He hoped, therefore, it was not intended by ministers to advise his majesty to prorogue parliament on Friday next, as rumour stated. Among the causes of gloom and alarm which this country at present witnessed, the hon. gent. noticed the state of our relations with a particular power—he meant Turkey; with regard to which, that house and the country were really unable precisely to decide whether we were at peace, or whether we were at war. An ambassador had been appointed to that state, and yet what was the nature of our connexion with it, or our future prospect regarding it, was quite uncertain. But he did not propose to press any embarrassing questions upon his majesty's ministers as to this topic. There were, however, other points upon which he was anxious, in common with the country at large, to receive all the information which ministers could consistently afford. The first and most important was with respect to the Russian treaty. In that treaty he observed an article specifically referring to the mediation of Russia between this country and France. Now, he wished to know whether any direct communication had been received from the court of Petersburgh, in consequence of this article? At the same time, he could not help observing, that there was something in the present juncture peculiarly favourable for the restoration of peace upon honourable terms, if ministers dexterously availed themselves of it. Thinking so, he strongly recommended ministers to accept the proposal of negociation; and, if they would enter upon it in the spirit of peace, he had no doubt that it would terminate in the establishment of that invaluable blessing; but if ministers proceeded upon a different spirit, he had serious fears that it would lead to great and permanent
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calamity.—The next point upon which the hon. gent. felt extremely anxious for information, was with regard to America: whether communication had been made by the American government upon the subject of a recent event on the American coast; and whether any steps had been taken by ministers in consequence of such communication? This was a question with regard to which the country felt extremely interested, and particularly as to the probable result. These were the two important points upon which he thought it his duty to apply to ministers for information, not only for the satisfaction of that house, but of the country. But with regard to the proposed prorogation, the hon. gent. called the attention of ministers to other important considerations, which appeared to him strongly to forbid that proceeding so early as was expected. According to the conditions of the Prussian treaty, it was stipulated that our commerce should be excluded from all the ports subject to that power, and it was understood that, in consequence of that stipulation, a large expedition had been sent out, with an object in view which exposed us to the liability of having a new enemy. The probability even of such an event ought, in his opinion, strongly to impress upon the minds of ministers, the impropriety of proroguing parliament, particularly as that probability must, in the nature of things, be so soon determined. While the result of such a proceeding was suspended, and with a just impression of the consequences, should the result be unfavourable, it would obviously be wise in any ministers to keep parliament together, in order that they might occasionally resort to the aid of its counsel. But, there were many other reasons which should impress this advice upon ministers. Among others, the incidents which might arise either out of a negociation for peace, or a continuance of war—the consequences which might result from the state of our present relations with America, and from the nature of our prospects with other powers; all of which it might be proper and necessary immediately to communicate to parliament, enforced time propriety of postponing the prorogation. But another, and a forcible reason for such postponement, was suggested by the present alarming situation of our West-India trade, through which we were likely to have so considerable a portion of our revenue cut off, and with regard to which, immediate

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proceedings ought of course to be taken by parliament. Under all these circumstances, the hon. gent. expressed his hope and wish, that ministers would not attempt to counsel his majesty to prorogue the parliament so soon as was reported.
Mr. Canningrose, and spoke to the following effect:—I do not rise, sir, for the purpose of offering any argument to justify the exercise of his majesty's prerogative, with regard to the prorogation of parliament, or to state the reasons which may influence his servants in the counsels which they may deem it advisable to offer upon such a subject. Any attempt at that sort of justification is, according to my judgement, in the present instance, totally unnecessary. But I rise to make such replies to the hon. member's questions, as I feel consistent with my public duty; and I am happy that I do feel enabled to afford a full answer upon those points to which the hon. gent. appears to attach the most importance. First, then, as to Russia; the hon. gent.'s interrogatory is—whether any direct communication has been received from the court of St. Petersburgh, conformably to a certain article in the treaty recently concluded between that country and France? Undoubtedly, a direct communication has been received from the Russian court, by his majesty's government, containing an offer of mediation between this country and France. But, I think it right, at the same time to state that this communication was unaccompanied by any copy of the treaty lately concluded, or any of its conditions—but specifically not the article alluded to by the hon member. This communication was received on the 2d of this month, and at that time his majesty's ministers had no knowledge whatever of the terms of the Russian treaty; but least of all of a certain article in that treaty. Nor had they, indeed, any intelligence upon the subject, until they received it through the same medium as that which conveyed it to the public, namely, a French newspaper. Under these circumstances, ministers received the communication I have mentioned from Russia, and to that communication; they returned, what in such a state of things must have been expected, only a conditional answer. What the nature of that answer was, the hon. gent. will not ask me to state; but I can assure him, that the answer of ministers was given in the most perfect ignorance of the Russian treaty, and particularly of the article alluded to by the hon. gent.—The
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next interrogatory of the hon. gent. alluded to America: now, upon this point, I can have no difficulty in communicating to the house and to the public, the fullest information in my power; and I am peculiarly glad of the opportunity which the hon. gent. has afforded me of so doing. But, before I enter into the transaction to which the hon. member's question more particularly refers, I beg to state, that any circumstances which may have occurred with regard to America, can, in no degree, have arisen out of the conduct of his present ministers. For this reason, that finding upon their accession to office, certain relations subsisting between this country and America—finding a treaty pending, though not yet ratified, and the public faith of this country solemnly pledged—they felt no duty so sacred.—they saw no line so clear, as not to interfere with the course of these relations; but to proceed according to the impulse given by their predecessors. Whatever our own feelings were upon the merits of the measure, we felt it our duty, and formed our resolution, to give the fullest effect to the stipulations of the treaty which our predecessors had concluded; such, in fact, both collectively and individually, was our determined purpose. Under these considerations, I can assure the house that no alteration whatever was made in the course pursued by our predecessors—nothing whatever was done that could bear on their treaty, or the objects they had in view. No new instructions whatever were sent to our minister at the American court; and as to our naval force off the American coast, they had precisely the same orders as those which prevailed under our predecessors. Upon the conduct of that force, I cannot as yet attempt to pronounce an opinion. Until a recent transaction shall be enquired into, and the fullest and most accurate examination shall take place, it would be premature to decide upon it. But, whatever the conduct of this naval force, or the nature of this particular transaction may have been, the present ministers are no more responsible for it than as the representatives of the government. In the present stage of the business, I have nothing more to say upon this question but to add, that the British government have not received, either through its minister at the American court, or through the American ambassador here, any official communication whatever relative to the transaction alluded to by the hon. gent.

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Ministers received the first authentic account of this affair through the American newspapers, transmitted by our minister, which contained the president's proclamation, and in consequence of this publication I thought it my duty, no later than this day, to enquire of the American ambassador, whether he had any official communication from his government to make upon the subject; but was answered in the negative. In such circumstances, of course, ministers have no communication to make to parliament on this topic.—Upon these two points, with regard to which the hon. gent. professed to be particularly anxious, I have endeavoured to answer as fully and satisfactorily as my duty enabled me to do. With respect to the other points to which the hon. gent. referred, the house must feel that it would be impossible for me, consistently, to state any thing with regard to the measures which he supposes ministers to have taken in consequence of the Prussian Treaty with France, or as to the object of the expedition which government has lately sent out; particularly as no intelligence has as yet been received from that expedition. Upon another subject of the hon. gent.'s allusion, I mean Turkey, I shall only repeat the words of his majesty's speech at the commencement of the session, namely, "that his majesty has taken such measures, as may best enable him to take advantage of any favourable opportunity for bringing the hostilities in which he is engaged against the Sublime Porte, to a conclusion, consistent with his majesty's honour and the interests of his ally."—The right hon. gent. observed, that he had communicated as fully upon all the points adverted to by the hon. gent. as he was enabled to do consistently with his duty. Having no official communication to make to parliament; seeing no probability of an event that should render an immediate communication with parliament necessary, and considering that the public business was over, he could not conceive the reason of acceding to a principle so new, as that of continuing the attendance of members—of preventing a prorogation, particularly at the present season, when, according to the ordinary practice of parliament, his majesty exercised his unquestionable prerogative in allowing to both houses a certain recess.
Mr. Whitbreadexpressed himself obliged to the right hon. secretary for the candour with which he had answered the
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questions he had thought it his duty to ask, but disclaimed any intention to interrogate the right hon. gent. as to those points, which he could not be consistently expected to answer—he meant particularly with respect to the destination of the expedition. With regard to his majesty's prerogative to prorogue parliament, he had no intention whatever to question it. But at the same time he must repeat, that the exercise of it in this instance, under the circumstances which he had stated, would be extremely ill advised.—The motion, that the house should at its rising adjourn till Thursday, was then agreed to.

SCOTCH JUDICATURE BILL.
The Lord Chancellorpresented a bill for the better administration of justice in Scotland, the object of which he briefly stated, namely to divide the court of session info two chambers, one consisting of the lord president and 7 judges, and the other of the lord justice clerk and 6 judges. His lordship stated, that he did not wish any proceeding should be had upon the bill this session, but merely that it should be printed and lie over for consideration next session.
The Earl of Selkirkthought it would be preferable to constitute the 6 justiciary lords of the court of session a court for the trial of jury causes, they being accustomed to trial by jury in criminal cases, and that the other nine judges should constitute a court of equity, with power to send causes for trial by jury into the other court.
The Earl of Lauderdaledeclined going into the subject at present, but stated, that there were several petitions from different parts of Scotland, ready to be presented in favour of extending the trial by jury to that country.—The bill was read a first time, and ordered to be printed.

NEUTRAL POWERS.
Earl Stanhoperoseto call the attention of the house to a subject he said of great importance; he alluded to the conduct of this country towards neutral powers. After what had passed in America, he thought the subject became of still greater importance, although he was aware that nothing could be said about that event at present. If, however he did not receive a satisfactory answer from ministers respecting the line of conduct intended to be adopted towards states at peace with this country, he should make a motion on the subject, on Thursday, which his lordship read, and the object of which was to recognize the principle of equality and reciprocity in the conduct of this country towards independent States with whom we were at peace.—The lords were ordered to be summoned for Thursday.

MILITIA TRANSFER BILL.
—The order

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of the day being read for the second reading of this bill,
Lord Hawkesburyobserved, that it had been the wish of his majesty's ministers to have avoided, if possible, proposing any new military measure during the present session, in order that they might have had more experience of the effects of the plan proposed by a right hon. gent. in the other house (Mr. Windham), and adopted by parliament, and which it was their wish should have a fair trial. After, however, the events which had unfortunately occur red, it became incumbent upon ministers to propose some measure for increasing the military force of the country, in order still further to guard against the increased power of the enemy. He did not wish the country to believe, that, whatever had been the dangers of invasion, they were not now increased. Whilst at a former period, if the enemy failed in an attempt to invade our shores, the failure was sure to recoil upon the continent, and environ him with danger there; and when now, from the unfortunate situation of the continental powers, that expectation could not be indulged, at least only to a very limited extent, it could not be supposed that the danger of invasion had not increased. With these difficulties to encounter, ministers felt it their duty to propose to parliament an augmentation of the military force of the country. It was evident that a sufficient augmentation could not be obtained by ordinary recruiting, as that did little more than repair the annual waste of men; neither could it be obtained by any additional stimulus given by the new plan, as it appeared from the statement of the number of recruits obtained, that that number had rather diminished than increased, whilst the desertions, which it was confidently expected would be decreased, had on the contrary increased. No one, indeed, who supported that plan, had considered it as capable of producing a large increase of men immediately; but as calculated gradually to improve the army. That it was necessary to increase the regular force of the country there could be no doubt, as that must prove the substratum of the general force of the country. The militia and the volunteers were capable of rendering services to the country of great importance; and he thought the latter force had been most unwisely decried, as if it were said, that because such a force was not good for every thing, that, therefore, it was good for nothing. They on the contrary,
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were highly important parts of our force. It was, however, of the greatest importance to keep up and to increase the efficiency of our regular disposable force, and the most effectual mode of increasing that force was conceived by ministers to be the measure now proposed, by which 28,000 soldiers, already trained and disciplined, would be obtained by the regular army, and by which 56 second battalions, now very deficient in numbers, would be rendered efficient. He conceived this plan to be preferable to an army of reserve, in raising which a considerable period must elapse before the men could be at all fit for service. Besides, the unwise measure of remitting the fines incurred under a recent act for raising men, tended to destroy the effect of measures of this nature by discouraging activity. The noble lord then went over the different provisions of the bill, and contended in favour of the clause for allowing the men the option of enlisting for a limited or an unlimited period, that it would be highly impolitic that the terms of service of 28,000 men should all expire together; he, besides, was of opinion that the only fair principle upon which service for a limited period ought to be supported was, the giving the men an option of a similar nature. The noble lord alluded to the measures of ministers respecting the volunteers, and contended that inspecting officers were absolutely requisite to take care that the corps were maintained in a proper state of discipline, and to communicate with government upon the subject. The allowances had been also restored, the withholding of which, according to the plan of the late ministers, must have tended to the destruction of the volunteer force. He concluded by moving the second reading of the bill.
Lord Sidmouthsaid, that though he concurred in many of the sentiments expressed by the noble baron (lord Hawkesbury) who had just sat down, his mind had not been brought to the same conclusion, with respect to the measures of defence fit to be adopted at the present crisis; and this difference arose, in a great degree, from the different view he had taken of the crisis itself. It was indeed evident, independently of the avowal of the noble baron, that notwithstanding the unfortunate and decisive circumstances which attended the opening of the campaign on the continent (he alluded particularly to the fall of Dantzic) there was no intention on the part of government, at the time of the meeting of parliament, to propose any measures for the augmentation of our military force.

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No communication to that effect was contained in the speech from the throne, nor had the subject been at all adverted to by ministers at an early period of the session; and even now, the plan, which was at length brought forward, appeared to him, he was sorry to declare, ill adapted to our actual situation, and inadequate to the nature and magnitude of the danger. It was chiefly founded upon the expediency of increasing our disposable force, and upon the supposition, that, for a considerable time at least, there was no reason to expect an attack on the coasts of Great Britain or Ireland. Imperfectly informed, as he must necessarily be, he was nevertheless decidedly of opinion, that we could not be justified in acting upon such a supposition; and that, without losing sight of the expediency of increasing our disposable force, our leading object should be to provide effectually for our domestic security. For this purpose it was necessary, not only to resort to such additional measures, as were adapted to the immediate exigency, but to carry into effect. without further loss of time, the principle of the training act of the year 1803, which had been altered, but not, as he thought, improved, by an act of last year; and likewise to found upon the principle of that act, a permanent system, without which, we could not reasonably hope to be rendered completely secure against what ought now to be considered as a permanent danger. It was evident, from what he had said, that whilst he could not agree with ministers in their view of the species and degree of preparation which the crisis demanded, he differed still more from those who were of opinion, that, even at such a moment as the present, we ought to rely entirely and exclusively on the effects of the new, and, as he readily admitted, improved conditions of military service, which had been last year adopted by parliament, but which it was then distinctly acknowledged, were not likely to be attended with rapid success. This opinion surprised him, as coming from persons, not only of great talents and authority, but from persons who had themselves been forward, at an early period of the war, in complaining of the insufficiency of our military, force, for the purpose of domestic security. At the time when this complaint was most vehemently urged, there were in arms in the United Kingdom, between 6 and 700,000 men; of which number, 182,000 were regulars and militia (92,000 of the former description), 25,000 sea fencibles, and considerably more than 400,000
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volunteers. One of his majesty's principal secretaries of state (Mr. Yorke) had also brought forward measures, which were afterwards interrupted by the change of government, for adding 40,000 men to our disposable force, and he also laid upon the table of the house of commons, a classification and enrolment of 1,800,000 men; the whole, or any part of which, were liable to be trained and disciplined, and, in the event of invasion, to be required to supply vacancies in regiments of the line, or to be employed for the defence of the country, in any other manner that his majesty should direct. This force, upon which he should abstain from making any observation, was at that time called insufficient: but now, when the danger was enormously increased, by the increased dominion and power of the enemy, we were told that no extraordinary efforts were necessary, and that a new system of recruiting, wise, as he admitted, in principle, but confessedly slow in its operation, was the only resource, on which we ought to rely for the augmentation of a force, which, even previous to the late embarkations, did not exceed 168,000 men, and of which, 140,000, including 78,000 militia, would, he feared, at this time, be an exaggerated estimate. On the policy of sending a large part of our army at this moment, on a foreign expedition, he would, whilst the object of it must be supposed to be generally unknown, refrain from offering any other remark, than that, though offensive operations were undoubtedly, in some cases, the best species of defensive warfare, yet, under such circumstances as the present, it was obviously desirable, that the distance and nature of the service to which the force was to be applied, should not be such, as to render its return, within a short period of time, either hazardous or uncertain. Of the insufficiency of our domestic force at this moment, and even previous to the embarkations alluded to, he trusted that amongst their lordships there was no difference of opinion; and with a view to the safety of the country, he should rejoice to find, that they were equally convinced of the unfitness, as well as the inadequacy, of the means upon which they were now to decide. The necessity of extraordinary exertions being however assumed, the remaining question, respecting the best mode of acting, under the pressure of such a necessity, could not but be attended with great and peculiar difficulties. It was an undoubted fact, that there was no nation in the world, in which

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the disproportion between its population and the demands upon it for military service was so considerable, as Great Britain; and none, in which the obstacles to the supply of such a demand were so numerous and powerful. The degree of compulsion resorted to for this purpose in most other parts of the world, would be unwarrantable, under a free government, as long as the safety of the state could be otherwise provided for; and the ordinary inducements to enter into the army, are here counteracted by the strong attractions of the naval service, by the facility of procuring a comfortable subsistence in the various occupations and pursuits of civil life, and (in case of want of employment) by the certainty of provision, secured by the humane policy of our laws, and charged upon the landed property of the country. Under such circumstances, it is not to be wondered at, that ordinary inducements have been found inadequate: even the effect of high bounties has been proved to be inconsiderable: local and personal influence has indeed been more productive; and the consequences of the measures adopted last year, for shortening the necessary duration of military service, and for improving the situation and prospects of the soldier, had been such as to justify sanguine hopes of complete, though gradual success: but still he feared, that, to meet the present emergency, voluntary service ought not to be exclusively relied upon. He therefore concurred with those who were of opinion, that, for this purpose, some species of compulsion must be resorted to, and that, upon the whole, ballot was the most equitable, and least severe: on this point, therefore, his difference with ministers was not upon the principle itself, but upon the mode of applying it. The plan now before their lordships, was to encourage 28,000 men to volunteer into the line from the militia of Great Britain and Ireland, at present consisting of 78,000, and to raise by ballot 44,000, of which, 28,000 would eventually be wanted to supply vacancies: of the remaining 16,000, five were to provide against the loss of that number of ballotted men, whose period of service would expire in a few months; three to obviate the waste of three or four years, during which, ballot was to be suspended; and the remaining 8000 were to consist of an addition to the militia of Ireland: a measure which, when brought forward early in 1804 (combined with the acceptance of offers from several Irish militia regiments, to serve in Great
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Britain), had been strenuously opposed by persons who had themselves recommended it to Parliament in the ensuing year, and some of whom concurred in urging the adoption of it at this time. To this plan he objected on various grounds: he objected to it, because the very attempt to execute it, must necessarily be accompanied by circumstances, which even its warmest advocates could not fail to lament. Persons, whether ballotted men or substitutes, having entered into the militia, must suppose that they were not liable to be called upon to engage in any other military service: but being there, they are now to be tempted and importuned; their good and bad qualities worked upon; their spirit and loyalty piqued and flattered; their inclination to revelry and irregularity indulged and gratified; their subordination to their officers relaxed and suspended; and all this, to induce them to forego, voluntarily, as it is termed, their original conditions of service, and to enter into the line. Though this could not perhaps be justly deemed a breach of faith, it was not, he feared, strictly consistent with fair dealing! upon that account he felt a strong repugnance to it. He also objected to the measure on account of its uncertainty; for though it was probable that the men would be obtained, it was by no means clear that this would be the case; and nothing should be left to chance at such a time. But his objections to the plan were not so much founded upon the danger of its failure, as upon the consequences which were to be apprehended from its success. If effectual, it would deprive the militia, admitted to be now in the highest state of discipline, of 28,000 of its best and most active men; and with the residue, consisting of 50,000, were to be mixed and incorporated 44,000 recruits, whose ignorance and inexpertness would furnish constant employment, during a long interval, to the non-commissioned officers, and necessarily suspend the efficiency of the whole body of militia, for a considerable period of time, and under circumstances the most critical. But weighty as these considerations appeared to him to be, there were others not less important; he adverted particularly to those arising out of the situation in which this measure would place the officers of the militia; a description of persons who had strong claims to the respect and gratitude of their country. On two former, occasions they had surrendered their personal feelings to the exigency of the public service; and at those periods,

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when our domestic danger was far less, and when a sufficient number of troops could not otherwise be procured for foreign expeditions, then in contemplation, the militia furnished the means of carrying into effect the wishes and plans of government; but the injury to the militia service itself was immediate and lasting. In 1805, the measure of recruiting from the militia arose from other causes: in the preceding year it had been provided by Mr. Pitt's Additional Force bill, that the militia should not receive any further supply of men, till casualties had taken from it a number equal to that of the Supplementary militia; and accordingly, in the spring of 1805, when the hopes which had been entertained of a large increase of the army from the Additional Force bill were disappointed; when 500 officers had quitted the militia service; and when the number of privates was wasting unprofitably, the measure of permitting a proportion of the militia, equal to the supplementary part of it, to enter into the line, was resorted to, but, as it appeared from documents upon the table, with incomplete success. What, however, must be the feelings of officers on seeing a renewal of this measure, not under such circumstances as those which he had just described; not with a view to foreign expeditions, on which militia regiments could not be employed, but when that species of service was likely to arise, for which they were peculiarly and exclusively calculated, and with a view to which alone the militia was instituted, and could be said to exist; and when a hope might be indulged by the honourable and high-spirited individuals to whom he had adverted, that they should reap the noblest reward of their exertions and sacrifices in the peril and the glory of defending at the head of those whom they had trained and disciplined, the laws, liberties, and independence of their country? Under such circumstances, though their loyalty and patriotism would remain unshaken and unabated, their zeal, their ardour, their becoming pride as militia officers, must be checked and subdued; and if these bills should pass, the life and soul of that valuable and distinguished branch of our military system would, he feared, be extinguished for ever. These reflections were the more painful to him, as he was convinced that the consequences he had described would be unnecessarily produced; inasmuch as the object immediately in view might be accomplished by another measure, which had been sanctioned by experience
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and success; and to which not only no such objections, but no objections of equal validity, could be justly stated to apply. The description of force to which he adverted, was that which had been called the Army of Reserve; though, if its services were confined, as he should recommend, to Great Britain and Ireland, it might properly be denominated the militia of the United Kingdom. The success of such a measure might be deemed certain, as in the year 1803, immediately subsequent to a ballot for 90,000 men for the militia, it produced, within a month after the passing of the bill, 15,000 men; 25,000 in two months; and in four months, 37,000. It would be executed in the same mode, by the same lists, and by the same agency, as the measure of constituting the militia: the appointment of new officers was unnecessary, as the second battalions were now, or might soon be, in a state to receive the men as they were raised. It was marked by fair dealing, as it would be known beforehand that all persons serving in such corps would be encouraged to enter into the army for general service, and that, if they thought proper to do so, they would receive a bounty for that purpose. But it had been stated by the noble baron (lord Hawkesbury), that the process of training such a force would be slow, whereas the men volunteering from the militia would be already in a high state of discipline: the latter part of this proposition was an assumption without proof, and without the possibility of it: for it was not certain that the expected number would be procured at all; and it was evident that government did not rely upon procuring the full number from those now serving in the militia, as there was a clause in the bill, authorizing newly ballotted men and substitutes to enter into the line. But admitting that the whole number should volunteer, and that it should consist entirely of disciplined soldiers, the question was (and upon this issue he rested his view of the subject), whether the superior quality of men entering from time militia over an equal number in the Army of Reserve, was such as, on that account, to render it expedient to suspend during a considerable and most critical period, the efficiency of the whole body of militia, consisting of more than half of our domestic force, and to incur the risk of so wounding the feelings of honourable and high spirited men holding commissions in that service, and of creating such a distaste for it, as to shake and endanger the militia establishment

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itself. On this point he entertained no doubt whatever. He thought it obviously preferable to leave the militia entire and undisturbed, in its present high state of discipline, and instead of raising the men wanted at this time, by a circuitous, and, as it appeared to him, most objectionable process, to resort to a mode direct and certain, which bad been successfully tried under circumstances from which the present only differed in this respect, that the difficulty of carrying it into effect was then much greater, and the necessity of it considerably less. His lordship further stated it to be his opinion, that it would be desirable at this time to raise ten or twelve battalions upon a plan which had been successfully resorted to, upon a limited scale, in the year 1804, and which, but for the change of government, would have been carried to a greater extent. The plan to which he alluded, was that of trying the effect of personal and local influence, for the purpose of raising men for one step of rank: it differed materially from a measure adopted at an early period of the last war, as at that time almost any person might have acquired for the stipulated number of men, any military rank below that of colonel. By the measure he was now recommending, no individual would gain a step in the army, whose character was not free from imputation, and who was not of standing sufficient to allow him to obtain promotion by purchase. To this proposition he knew there were objections, but he had heard of none that appeared to him to be of sufficient weight to justify the rejection of it, under such circumstances as the present: as far as it went, it would lessen the number to be raised by ballot, which, he admitted, was a process not to be resorted to, except under the pressure of an urgent and overruling necessity.—The noble viscount then proceeded to take a detailed view of the military establishment of the country, and expressed his decided opinion, that, as lord Hawkesbury had also observed, it must unavoidably consist of diversified materials, and of different descriptions of force; and that the necessity of compulsion could only be diminished by resorting to various methods, for the purpose of drawing from a disproportionate population as much military efficiency as could be obtained, consistently with the inclinations, the habits, and occupations of the people. The regular army must unquestionably be considered as the foundation, and, as it had been called by the noble baron, the substratum of the
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whole: for the supply of it, great confidence might, he thought, be justly placed in the measure adopted last year, for altering the conditions of military service: the benefits of this system could only be progressive; but they were already sufficient to warrant sanguine expectations of complete success. With this opinion, he greatly lamented the introduction of a clause in the present bill, affording to the militia soldier, on entering into the regular army, the option of serving either for seven years, or for life. A small increase of bounty would probably operate irresistibly at the moment of enlistment, and induce a large proportion to accept the latter alternative: repentance would speedily follow; all the uneasiness arising from contrast would be soon, and continually, felt: discontent and desertion, he feared, would ensue, and the advantages of the system would, in other respects, be circumscribed, and materially impaired. He was apprehensive too, that this clause might be the forerunner of a similar provision in the mutiny bill of the ensuing year; and if so, a system founded on the soundest principles and the most enlarged views, must be considered as abandoned and destroyed. This would extinguish the hope, now reasonably entertained, of our being enabled, at a future period, to supply and keep up a large regular army, by no other means than those of voluntary service. But, under the most favourable circumstances, a regular army, sufficient of itself to provide for our domestic defence, as well as for the security of our foreign possessions, could not possibly be raised and maintained; and, for reasons unnecessary now to be stated, ought not, as he thought, to be desired: auxiliary means must be resorted to, without which, in the event of a landing of the enemy in considerable force, effectual resistance would be hopeless. These means were partly to be derived from the zeal and spontaneous exertions of a large proportion of the community, and from the application of a principle solemnly established by the act of 1803, of the right of the state to demand the military services of all or any members of the community, for the purposes of domestic defence. Of the first description were the Volunteers, a force which, considering its amount and the spirit which produced it, is without a parallel in the history of the world. Of the disposition of government to cherish and encourage that spirit, he had the satisfaction of being perfectly convinced; and in general he approved of the measures which

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had been adopted for that purpose. In the management of the volunteers, it was essential to manifest a strong and liberal sense of their value; to avoid, and to discourage, unnecessary expense; and to aim at such a degree of military discipline and proficiency as may be consistent with a due attention to their ordinary civil occupations. Of the militia (a description of force raised under compulsory authority), he would add nothing to what he had already said, than that he believed it to be impossible that they should long continue to exist upon their present footing, but that they ought to know distinctly what they were to expect in future. The extension of their services to the whole of the United Kingdom could not, as the establishment was now constituted, be reasonably expected; and, indeed, without far more consideration and indulgence than for several years past it had been judged proper, or perhaps been found practicable to show, for the personal convenience and comfort of individuals belonging to the militia, it would be fruitless to hope that a large number of ballotted men would serve, or that the regiments would be officered by a considerable proportion of noblemen and gentlemen from the counties in which they were respectively raised. He was strongly inclined to think that the connexion of the militia with the volunteers, for the purpose of forming local and provincial corps, which should remain in their different counties, except in case of actual invasion, or immediate danger of it, would, upon the whole, be the most useful purpose to which those branches of our military system could now be applied. But all the means of defence and exertion, to which he had adverted, ought to be consisidered as far from commensurate with the exigency of the present crisis, and with the permanent danger, for such we ought now to deem it, against which it was our urgent duty to provide. For these purposes, it was indispensably necessary to exercise the authority solemnly confirmed to his majesty by the legislature in 1803, of calling upon all or any of his liege subjects, not only to assist in repelling an invading enemy, but previously to submit to such a course of training and discipline as would qualify them for active service in the field. Under such circumstances as the present, our actual and prepared means of defence should know no limits, bus those of our population: and considering the inestimable value of the stake for which we are contending, we cannot be justified, in suffering our internal pre-
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parations to be in any degree diminished by our confidence in our insular situation, or even in the undisputed superiority of our navy. Let our force at sea be what it may, whatever may be its distribution, it is well known, that no degree of skill, vigilance, or exertion, can ensure the confinement of the enemy in their own ports, and that it is also impossible to prevent their disembarkation in considerable numbers, on various parts of the coast of the United Kingdom. It is therefore necessary, for the purpose of being perfectly secure; of being, as far as human means can render us so, invulnerable, or at least invincible, that we should meet the enemy with what he cannot bring. He must find us an armed nation. With these impressions, it was to him a matter of astonishment and deep regret, to hear that the parliamentary measures, which, it appeared, were still necessary for carrying the plan for a general training into effect, were not to be proposed till the ensuing session; and it had been said, from official authority, in another place, that no danger was to be apprehended till the spring. It was indeed evident, from the conduct, the language, and measures of ministers, that they considered and treated the danger as remote: it might be so; but to delay, upon such a supposition, the adoption of measures confessedly essential to our security, was a species of confidence, to say the least, for which he was unable to conceive any rational pretence, or suggest any possible excuse. Was it founded upon the fact, that the great body of the French army was still in Poland? Let their lordships recollect the marches of the armies of France, in the autumn of 1805 and 1806. In 1805, they reached Ulm within a month from the time of their departure from Boulogne; and shortly after, 80,000 Austrians were prisoners of war. In 1806, they not only traversed in eight weeks, the vast tract of country between the banks of the Rhine and the Maine, and those of the Vistula, but crushed in their way, one of the greatest military powers in the world. The approach of autumn, or even of winter, would afford no security: on the contrary, long nights were favourable, when the object was to elude the vigilance or pursuit of a superior fleet; and it must be recollected, that it was the depth of winter, when General Hoche anchored in Bantry Bay. Let it not however be supposed, that France is at this moment destitute of means of making a formidable attack. Independently of her native troops,

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of which, the march of 60,000 had been stopped, 40,000 Dutch troops are returned to the frontiers of Holland, and a Spanish army, of 25,000 men, on their route towards Poland, had halted on the borders of France. These were circumstances, which surely called for the serious and immediate attention of ministers, and imposed upon them the urgent and imperious duty of making the most of the time yet allowed for preparation. This view of our situation might perhaps be considered as too gloomy; but he assured their lordships, that he had never yet been guilty of the crime of despairing of his country: and even under the present circumstances, his anxiety chiefly arose from the sentiments which government appeared to entertain of this momentous and unexampled crisis; and particularly from his conviction of the unfitness and inadequacy of the measures now brought forward; and not from any distrust of the actual sufficiency of our means to provide effectually for our security. We must however, by foresight, by vigour, by exertion, by perseverance, maintain ourselves on the eminence upon which we are now placed, or we should soon descend to the foot of the declivity, and in that state of humiliation, greater privations and sacrifices would be necessary, to enable us to make a comparatively feeble, and probably an ineffectual struggle, for our insular independence, than are now requisite, for the protection of our wide-spread dominion, and for the support of our formidable power. No plea, no pretence, for imperfect and incompetent measures, was to be found in the disposition of the people. They had not embarrassed the plans and operations of government, nor the deliberations of parliament, by complaints of the continuance of the war, and of the burdens which it had occasioned. On the contrary, their conduct had been highly honourable to the sound sense, the manly fortitude, and ardent loyalty of the country; and he was convinced, that, at the present moment, measures of efficiency and vigour, with a view to our domestic defence, would be hailed with approbation and joy by the united voice of the whole nation.—On the present occasion, he had discharged what he considered as an indispensable duty. He had expressed sentiments, which he had long entertained, and upon which he had formerly acted. A slight difference of opinion would not induce him, upon such an occasion, and at such a period, to oppose a measure of the government: but he now did so,
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from a firm and conscientious conviction, that it was highly objectionable in itself, and that it impeded the adoption of other measures, far better adapted, in all respects, to our present situation, and to the permanent security of the empire.
Lord Boringdoncontended, that there was every probability of the measure being effectual to the extent of the whole number of men sought to be raised. That these men, when transferred from the militia into the regulars, would be at least equal to what they were in the militia, that they would even be equal to most regular troops, he thought could hardly be denied. The noble viscount had said, that a long time must intervene before the deficiency produced by the draughting of them from the militia could be supplied. This was, in his opinion, the very point in which the present system was most efficient, and that in which it had the most decided advantage over the measure of the noble viscount. By the noble viscount's plan, the new levies would be formed into separate corps, consisting entirely of untrained men, By that now proposed, the 28,000 newly raised recruits were to be engrafted into 100 different battalions, into which they themselves would infuse additional vigour, and from whose almost complete state of training, on the other hand, they must be brought in a comparatively short period to the use of arms. He confessed there was one part of the bill he did not like, and that was the clause by which any infringement was made on the improved mode of recruiting the regular army, introduced during the last year. He should have preferred it had the period of limited service been still adopted, raising the bounty progressively, as 7 guineas for seven years, 8 guineas for eight years, 9 guineas for nine years, &c.
Lord De Dunstanvillethough he seldom found himself disposed to compliment the present ministers, could not refrain from giving them his thanks for any measure which went to add to the force of the country at this important crisis. To the mode, however, in which this additional force was sought to be raised, he felt himself called on to object. He would greatly prefer the measure recommended by the noble viscount; namely, the Army of Reserve. It had been tried, and found effectual. If, however, the present measure passed into a law, it should have his utmost assistance to give it effect; but at the same time it had not his approbation.
The Earl of Selkirkrose and spoke nearly as follows:*—My lords; Though I concur in many of the objections which have been stated to the particular provisions of the bill before us, yet I cannot consider these details as an interesting subject of discussion, when the measure is liable, in its very principles, to an objection of paramount importance—I mean, that it is totally inadequate to the exigencies of the crisis in which we are placed. The noble secretary of state who moved the bill, has opened the subject with many forcible observations on the dangers with which we are surrounded, and on the necessity which we are under, of making extraordinary exertions, in consequence of the recent great successes of the enemy. But when the noble lord proceeded to specify the exertions, which he wishes the country to make, I could not help thinking the measures which he proposed, a strange contrast to the exordium of his speech. When the noble lord, after taking such ample time to consider the subject, brings forward a proposal prefaced with such observations, we are surely led to expect, that the preparations to be made, should be in some degree commensurate with the exigency, and with the amount of the force, which we may expect to be brought against us. But, supposing that the measure now proposed were free from all the particular objections which have been urged against it—to what does it amount? All that is even proposed is, to raise 44,000 men in the course of twelve months; and that by a ballot, of which the acknowledged effect will be to impede and nearly to suspend the ordinary recruiting, by which in the same space of time at least one half of that number would be raised. The noble lord then considers an addition of 20 or 24,000 men to our regular and militia force, as a counterpoise to the increase of power, which France has obtained during the last three campaigns. With this additional number of men we are to be enabled to resist the gigantic power, which is now preparing to overwhelm us.—Good heavens! my lords, is it possible that the noble secretary can be serious in making such a proposal? or are we to believe that his majesty's ministers have never at all reflected on the nature and amount of the danger with which we are menaced? Have they forgot that we have to contend with the most formidable military power, which the world has ever seen?—that we have to contend single-handed, not
*From the original edition printed for John Hatchard, Bookseller to Her Majesty, Piccadilly; 1807.
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against the power of France alone, but, I may almost say, against that of all Europe. Every resource, which the continent can afford, we may soon expect to see arrayed for the subjugation of this country; and all this immense power is in the hands of one, who is not apt to neglect his advantages. The conqueror who with such unexampled rapidity has crushed the most formidable powers on the continent—he who has humbled Russia, who has laid Austria prostrate, and has scattered the legions of the great Frederick like dust before the wind, is preparing, with still increased resources, to carry his victorious arms into England, urged on by every motive that ambition and revenge can dictate. This island is now the only bar that stands between Napoleon and the empire of the world. He knows that when England is crushed, no other power on earth will dare to give him any further molestation;—but that while England exists, he will ever have a jealous rival, a watchful and a formidable antagonist. Can we doubt, that every sinew will be stretched to accomplish the annihilation of a power, which has so repeatedly obstructed his views?—Nor is it by ambition alone that he is animated. He makes no secret of the implacable hatred he bears to this country, and the vengeance which he meditates for the repeated mortifications, which he traces to the enmity of England. Assuredly, it is now no ordinary war that we have to wage—no war of colonial contests or distant campaigns;—the blow is now aimed it our heart—our struggle is to be for the existence of Britain. It is not the humiliation of a rival that France now aims at,—it is the annihilation of a foe, that, has for ages been the rallying point of her enemies. Nothing short of total and absolute conquest can now be expected to satisfy her ambition. To others the conqueror has shown moderation, only that he might direct his efforts with more security and effect against his main enemy. To others, he has shown moderation, only that he might the better accomplish our destruction. But if England be once at his feet, as Austria and Prussia have been—never—never will she be allowed to raise her head again. Calamities severe enough have followed the conquests of France in Italy, in Swisserland, in Holland; but the fate of these countries has been mildness itself, when compared with that which is now preparing for England. In these countries, ambition and avarice were the only motives to excess—here they will be aggravated by rancorous vengeance, and national hatred, not confined to the com-

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manders alone, but extending to the lowest soldiers. Hitherto the French have been more or less restrained by motives of policy—but if they conquer England, they may safely give a loose to every brutal passion; and the Englishman that survives the ruin of his country, must expect to see every horror, to which rapacity and insolence can prompt a licentious soldiery, and a jealous usurper.—With such a prospect before us, from the gigantic power of the French empire,—with the task of guarding against the destruction of every thing that is dear to us, his majesty's ministers are satisfied with an increase of 20 or 30,000 men to the army. Surely, my lords, when we consider the horrors to which any deficiency in our preparations may lead, it is the duty of those who conduct the affairs or the nation, to see that at all events our means of defence should be amply sufficient. Were the chance of successful invasion but as one to a hundred, it ought not to be neglected. Where we risk every thing, we should guard against the possibility of defeat, with as much solicitude as, in cases of ordinary concern, against the strongest probability. The noble secretary of state seems to entertain doubts as to the probability of an invasion being attempted: even if these doubts were well founded, to act upon any such presumption would be an unpardonable breach of duty. Though it were ever so improbable, yet if there is the slightest possibility, that by any concurrence of chances the enemy can make good their landing, we ought to be ready to meet them. To act otherwise would be to trust our existence to chance, and to throw away the security that is in our power.—But, my lords, is the chance of invasion a mere possibility?—When we look at the vast extension of the resources of France, at the means of, recruiting her navy, which she has acquired by her continental conquests, it would be blindness not to perceive, that her naval power must soon become far more formidable than it has ever yet been. France is now in possession of the finest forests it Europe, and of countries capable of affording ample supplies of every naval store: she may command the services of all the seamen which the continent can afford, from Memel to Cadiz, and from Cadiz to Constantinople. We may look too to the certain prospect, that the whole energy of the French government will now be directed to this object: we know in fact that during all the pressure of their continental wars, the most active exertions in ship-building have never been discontinued in their naval arsenals: they have now no other object to divide their at-
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tention; and we may be well assured that all the ability of the ruler of France will now be turned to naval affairs. The same genius, which has created such an astonishing change in the discipline and tactics of the French army, will now be unremittingly employed in the improvement of their navy; and if we recollect that the disorganized bands, which a few years ago were flying before Suwarrow out of Italy, are now the victorious legions of Austerlitz, of Jena, and of Friedland, we shall not be disposed to underrate the change, which the same genius may effect in the navy of France.—We have therefore every reason to believe, that the naval superiority of England must ere long be exposed to a more severe contest, than any which it has recently had to maintain. Whatever confidence we may entertain in the valour and skill of our seamen, it is not the part of a prudent politician, under such circumstances, to overlook the possibility of our navy being worsted. This, my lords, is an event for which we ought to be prepared; and fortunately there is room to hope that we shall have sufficient time to prepare against it. But any one who considers well what the state of this country would be, if the French had obtained a superiority at sea, will certainly not be disposed to think, that we can begin too soon to provide against such an emergency.—But, my lords, this is not all—we have dangers more closely pressing upon us, dangers which if we are to meet, we have not a moment to lose.—An invasion is certainly no impracticable undertaking for the French, even at this moment, notwithstanding all our actual superiority at sea. The ablest and most experienced naval officers have given their opinion of the practicability of the enemy landing in force on our shores. Repeated experience has proved the impossibility of effectually blockading the ports of the enemy, notwithstanding the greatest naval superiority; and when we consider the vast range of coast that is now under their influence—a range which ere long may have no other limits than those of Europe itself, it is evident that we may be threatened at the same moment from so many different points, that it will be more difficult than ever to watch them all, and that thus the chances are greatly increased, of the enemy being able to convey an armament to the most vulnerable points of our empire. Our ablest admirals have repeatedly seen the French fleets escape from them, even when their whole vigilance was directed to the single port of Brest: But what would be the case, if armaments were ready at the same time in Cadiz, in Ferrol, in

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Rochefort, in Brest, in Cherbourg, in Flushing, in the Texel, in the Elbe, and perhaps even in Norway? What rational hope could be entertained that some one or other of them would not escape, and land either in England or in Ireland a force sufficient to put the existence of our empire on the hazard of the die?—But why, my lords should I speak of armaments that are yet to be prepared? Have we forgotten that the enemy have already a most formidable one in full readiness, that they have only again to fill the camp of Boulogne to give us the most serious ground of alarm*? It may be admitted that the embarkation of an army to pass the channel, while our navy continues as superior as it now is, must be a hazardous undertaking; but we have every reason to believe that the attempt will be made in spite of every hazard. We know that our enemies are not very tender of the lives of their men; and though they were certain of the loss of one half of their army, they would not scruple on that account, it with the other half they can hope to accomplish their object. With such determination on their side, and taking into account the number of accidental circumstances which may favour their attempt, what are we to think of the blindness of those, who affect to treat this as a danger against which there is no need of guarding?—Three years ago, when the French armies occupied the camp of Boulogne, our wisest statesmen were sensible that invasion was no empty threat, and England was all alive to the danger. Yet in comparison with the present time the danger was inconsiderable. The ruler of France, it he had then made the attempt, would have staked the existence of his power on the success of the enterprise. His authority in France was ill secured; his enemies without were formidable. He had unequivocally pledged himself to lead the expedition in person; and even if he had not,
*It has been the fashion to treat the preparations of the enemy in that quarter as a subject of derision: but some of the ablest of our naval officers have considered them in a very different light. Some details as to the nature and powers of the flotilla might here be stated, upon authority of the first eminence, and they are withheld only from prudential considerations, and from the apprehension that information might thereby be conveyd to the enemy. Were it not for this restraint, these particulars might be sufficient to convince the most sceptical of the danger of immediate invasion, perhaps in the very face of our fleet, but at least under circumstances, the occurrence of which could not be prevented by the utmost vigilance on the part of our commanders.
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the undertaking was too great to be delegated. An unfortunate result, though it had not been fatal to his person, would have occasioned a counter-revolution in France; and even a doubtful contest would have drawn upon him a dangerous attack from the continental powers. In the present circumstances, all these obstacles are removed. Napoleon has reaped an ample harvest of glory, and may now afford to delegate the conquest of England to some of his generals. He may take that course, without appearing to imply any doubt of its success, or any wish to avoid personal danger. The continental powers are so completely crushed, that there is no reason to apprehend any obstruction on their part; and the power of Bonaparte in France is so confirmed, that even the failure of the expedition to England would not shake it. When he has so little to apprehend from an unfortunate result, and when the effect of success will be to confirm Napoleon as the master of the world, have we not every reason to suppose that the greatest hazard will be run for such a prize?—ln those who shut their eyes against the danger of immediate invasion, there is something like absolute infatuation. Because our enemy is at a distance, and has for a while had his back turned to us, we seem to imagine, that he can never again threaten our shores. His army indeed is now on the banks of the Vistula:—But have we forgot the rapidity with which he moved from Boulogne to Vienna, and from the Rhine to Berlin? Nor are France and the adjacent provinces left so entirely destitute of troops, but that a week or two, perhaps, would be sufficient to collect again at Boulogne, such a force as might be sufficient for the invasion. Even before the next winter sets in, it is not impossible that a French army may be on English ground; and if the blow is delayed, it will only be that it may be struck with greater certainty. Under these circumstances, not only is the nation sunk in apathy; but his majesty's ministers, setting the example of blind insensibility, are not ashamed of bringing forward such a proposition as the bill before us, telling the nation that 20 or 30,000 more troops are to ensure their security.—If ever, my lords, there was an example of that infatuation which seems to be the natural forerunner of the fall of empires, is not this one? In what are we more wise than the Prussians, who, a year ago, rushed headlongon destruction, and would not believe in the possibility of defeat? They thought that the legions of the great Frederick were invincible, as we seem now to think that the channel is an

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impassable barrier. Will no experience teach us wisdom? and is England destined to afford another terrible example that "quos Deus vult perdere, priùs dementat?"—Let us rouse, my lords, from this, fatal security: let us trust no longer to a barrier that may be overcome. It is not to the channel that we must look for security, but to the hands of Englishmen fighting for their liberties, for the glory and the independence of their country. To put our trust in the sea, if it were not the extreme of folly, would be the extreme of cowardice. Shall the descendants of the men, who conquered at Agincourt and at Cressy, acknowledge that they cannot meet the armies of France hand to hand, and that it is only at sea that we can cope with our enemies? Away with the base idea, that England must entrench herfelt behind a miserable ditch, instead of coming out into the field! Let us look the danger in the face, and prepare for our defence, as if the cliffs of Dover touched those of Calais, or as if the fleets of France had been as victorious as her armies. Till we can hear without dismay that the flotilla of Boulogne has effected a landing on the coast of Kent; that a French army of 120,000 men are in possession of Dover, and that 20 or 30,000 more have made their way to Ireland—till we can hear all this without a well-grounded apprehension, I shall not consider the state of our defence as worthy of the name of England. The probability is, that a year may not elapse before such news will reach our ears: and when it does come upon us, what consequence can any reasonable man anticipate if our state of defence remain such as it now is, or such as it will be, with all the addition which his majesty's ministers now call for? Let any man of military knowledge, who is acquainted with the present situation and disposition of our regular and militia force, calculate the time regular would be necessary for bringing together an army capable of opposing 100,000, or even half that number, of the troops of Bonaparte, flushed with all their late astonishing successes. Let him look back to the rapid marches of these troops in the campaigns of 1805 and 1806, and let him figure to himself what their movement would probably be, were they at this hour landed on the shores of England. Let him say, whether the enemy might not be in possession of London, and of all our military depôts, before our army could even be collected? whether, advancing with his usual rapidity into the centre of the country, he might not intercept our scattered battalions before they could reach a rendezvous, or
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from the semblance of an army fit to oppose him—Last year, we saw Prussia over-whelmed after a short and feeble resistance: Heaven grant that England may not shortly exhibit a parallel, or a still more disgraceful spectacle! Prussia at least fought a battle before she submitted to the conqueror—England may probably be overrun, before her army is even in readiness to take the field and to face the invader; and this far-famed empire may be crushed, without our having the glory of making, one stand for the liberties we value so highly!—Great, my lords, as the dangers are, with which this country is now surrounded, nothing is farther from my mind than to say, that the contest is beyond our strength, or that the resources of this country, if well directed, are not adequate to meet all its dangers. But if that is to be done, it must be by very different measures from this that is now before us, and by exertions of which Englishmen have as yet been little accustomed to think.—In considering the means of resisting the now gigantic extent of the power of France, there is one point abundantly evident, that something more than a standing army, or any description of regular force, is absolutely necessary. I am perfectly sensible, that a strong regular army must be the basis of our defence; that every other description of force can only serve as accessories; that, without a large army, nothing can be done by volunteers, or any similar local force, or by any exertion of the zeal and courage of the civil population of the kingdom. On the other hand, my lords, it is equally clear, that if we trust to our regular army alone, if we cannot find means of giving effectual support to our army by some species of accessory force, we, must be overwhelmed: it is physically impossible for us to raise a regular army strong enough, to meet that which may be brought against us.—It has been justly observed, that our army is already so numerous, as to form a greater drain on the population of this kingdom, than that of any other country in Europe has to supply. There is no other country, in which so great a number of men, in proportion to the total population, are employed in the military service of the state, In this calculation, the militia, and the seamen in his majesty's navy, must be taken into the account, as much as the troops of the line: for they are equally withdrawn from the pursuits of industry, in which they would otherwise be engaged. Thus, independently of foreigners, the total number of our own people, who have no other business but to defend the British empire and its dependen-

1129
cies, amounts to about 375,000, which is not less than one fortieth of our whole population. In several of the petty German principalities, where the princes were the most oppressively severe in their demands of military service from their subjects, it was found impossible to carry the numbers of their troops to a higher proportion than one sixtieth of the population, and few of the greater powers in Germany have ventured even this length. It has been argued from this fact, that we are already arrived at the utmost limit, to which the numbers of our regular force can be carried, and that no improvement in the system of recruiting, or in the condition of the soldiery, will enable us to make any very great addition to our army. The idea certainly has some plausibility; but whether it be correct or not, this at least is clear, that there must be some limit to the numbers of our regular forces—that there is some proportion to the population, beyond which no country can extend its army; and we have no reason to suppose that we can afford a greater proportion of our population, than our enemies can of theirs.—It is therefore quite impossible that the British islands, with a population of about 15 millions, can maintain a standing army equal to that, which may be drawn from the countries under the control of the French emperor, peopled with 50 or 60 millions: and the disproportion of numbers is too great to be counterbalanced by any superiority of personal prowess. If, therefore, we were reduced to the necessity of maintaining the contest against France by our regular armies alone, no hope could be entertained that we should ultimately prevail; and our subjugation would be inevitable. Happily, however, for the liberties of mankind, there is a natural and a material difference between the case of a nation which has to defend its own independence, and that of a nation engaged in offensive warfare. An invading power can act only by its regular armies; but the nation that is invaded may bring the great mass of its population to support its army. The bulk of the people, who are engaged in the pursuits of peaceful industry, can give no assistance in attacking a neighbouring country, but may be of great use in the defence of their own. To the employment of this great resource, France herself owed the preservation of her independence, from the dangers with which it was threatened in the early periods of the revolution. It was by the levée en masse, that the united Austrian and Prussian armies were repulsed; and it is only, by similar means that we can now hope to
1130
save our country from still more imminen t perils.—Here, my lords, I shall no doubt be told, that our government does not mean to trust to the standing army alone. The noble secretary of state has spoken of the necessity of a varied force, and has hinted at improvements which he has in view in the system of the volunteers.—I could have wished, my lords, that if such ameliorations are in contemplation, they had been brought forward for the immediate consideration of parliament, instead of being put off for months, as if it were a matter in which delay can produce no inconvenience. In my view of our situation, never was there a time when we could less afford delay. Whatever measures are to be adopted for our defence, there is not a month, not a week, to be lost in applying them to practice. A delay of no long period may be fatal.—Without waiting, however, till the noble lord may explain what his views are, I feel confident in asserting, that it is impossible to devise any plan, by which the volunteers can be rendered a defensive force adequate to the present crisis. I am far, my lords, from feeling the least disposition to undervalue the merits of a body of men, who have made the noblest and most patriotic sacrifices; but the system of their institution is liable to fundamental objections, which no exertions on their part can ever overcome. I have seen too much of the patriotic zeal of the volunteers not to honour the spirit which animates them, and not to trust that, when the hour of peril comes, they will meet it with all that determination, which an enthusiastic attachment to the cause of their country's freedom can inspire.—I am sensible too, that the volunteer establishment, even if it were to be broken up immediately, has already done important services to the country. It has diffused a military spirit, and no inconsiderable portion of military knowledge, throughout the nation. It has infused into the people a confidence in our own resources; and, above all, it has removed every clog to the full employment of these resources, by extinguishing totally, and I trust for ever, those, jealousies which formerly prevailed between the government and the people, in regard to military force. Formerly there was an excessive diffidence on the part of government, to put arms into the hands of any but the standing army; while, on the other hand, a corresponding jealousy subsisted in the people and in parliament, against intrusting the crown with a considerable standing army. While this spirit mutually prevailed, the exertions of the country were cramped. There was no more

1131
in which our military resources could be called forth, that was not, on one side or the other, an object of jealousy. This spirit is now at an end, and it is the volunteer establishment that has annihilated it. At the commencement of the present war, the government, with a magnanimous confidence in the spirit and loyalty of the people, threw itself upon their spontaneous efforts for support, and put arms into the hands of 4 or 500,000 volunteers. This act of confidence was met by a reciprocal confidence on the part of the people. Indeed it could not be otherwise. How could the people entertain any suspicion of a design against their liberties on the part of a government, which did exactly what a treacherous and designing ruler would be most afraid of doing? How could they fear that the army would be turned against their liberties, by those men who gave them the arms by which every such attack might be repelled? This great measure was not only a mark of confidence on the part of government, but an unequivocal earnest of the rectitude of their intentions; and as such it has been received by the country. We hear no more of scruple about granting to the crown the most numerous armies that can be raised. The only question now is, how their numbers can be most effectually augmented; and were any member of parliament now to repeat the declamations against standing armies, that were formerly so popular, what would he meet with but ridicule? The result then of this magnificent experiment has been, not only to prove the perfect safety with which the people may be trusted with arms, but to establish a degree of mutual confidence between the crown and the people heretofore unknown, and to fix it on an immoveable basis. If the volunteer establishment had done no other service to England than this, I should think the ministers, who had accomplished so noble a work, entitled to the lasting gratitude of their country.—But, my lords, while I pay a just tribute of praise, both to the individual merit of the volunteers, and to the utility that has been derived from the institution, I cannot shut my eyes on the intrinsic difficulties, which stand in the way of every attempt to form on this basis an efficient defensive force; and, at a moment like this, when every exertion of which this nation is capable, will not be more than adequate to the crisis in which we are involved, I should think it a very ill judged compliment, to persist in expecting from the volunteers, a species of service for which they are not formed, and to neglect the means that are in our power, of drawing from the mass of the people a
1132
more efficient species of defensive force.—It is admitted on all hands, that the discipline as well as the numbers of the volunteers has experienced a material decline. On this I should not be disposed to insist much, if it were merely an accidental circumstance; for I am well convinced, that when the necessity of renewed exertions becomes manifest, the energy of the volunteers may be revived in proportion to the apparent exigency of the crisis.—But, my lords, it would be deceiving ourselves, to consider this decline of the volunteers as an accidental circumstance: it has arisen from the very nature of the institution. A system, the efficiency of which rests so entirely on individual exertion, cannot be permanent and steady in its effects. At the period when the volunteer establishment was formed, the loyalty and patriotic spirit of the people had been roused to the highest pitch of enthusiasm. The apparent danger of the country called forth unprecedented exertions of spontaneous zeal; but as the exigency became less apparent, these exertions naturally relaxed. Even before there was any evident change in the situation of public affairs, the energy of this spirit had begun to decline. Such vehement efforts of enthusiasm could not be of long continuance: the public mind had been on the stretch, and naturally sunk back into a state of languor. To this is to be added, that military exercises were, to many of the volunteers, so great a contrast to their ordinary occupations, as to be a recreation while the attraction of novelty continued: but when that zest was lost, it has been found in general very difficult to preserve their attention unimpaired. From this cause, men of experience have observed, that the state of discipline in the volunteer corps, has in many cases followed an opposite rule, from that which is found to obtain among regular troops; among regular regiments, the oldest is generally supposed to be the best corps; among volunteers, it is more frequently the newest.—This instability must be expected in every institution, the efficiency of which rests on the efforts of voluntary zeal; and even if we could reckon with certainty on the revival of an enthusiastic spirit, upon every occasion of danger, that would not be enough. The danger of the country may often be seriously great, when it is not apparent to vulgar eyes. In the present circumstances of Europe, our danger may be considered as permanent; for, even if peace should be concluded, we must look to the probability that our enemy will renew the attack, if ever he can take us unawares. In these circumstances, our defensive preparations cannot be safely trusted to the desultory efforts of spontaneous zeal:

1133
they ought to be arranged on a permanent system, that shall never relax in its energy, and that wall keep our defensive force in a constant state of efficiency, in peace not-less than in war.—For this reason, were there no other, the volunteer system must-be considered as inadequate to the present necessities of the country; and it seems to be admitted, even by the warmest advocates of the volunteers, that there is a necessity of devising some establishment of a more permanent nature to replace them. In considering what that establishment ought to be, it becomes us to profit by the experience which has been already obtained; and that we may steer clear of the errors which have obstructed the utility of the volunteers, it is necessary to examine into the inconveniences, which have actually been observed in that system.—In the first place, the privilege of each individual to quit his corps, though essential to the idea of a volunteer force, is a material obstruction to the perfection of its discipline. The slender tenure open which the officers hold their authority, compels them to humour every caprice of the men under their command: and though a corps, composed of men of education, sensible of the importance of the object for which they are associated, may be induced to pay that zealous attention, which will enable them to acquire a considerable proficiency in military evolutions; yet it is scarcely possible that the common run of men, place under so precarious an authority, can acquire that steady habit of ready and implicit obedience, which is the most important and perhaps the most difficult lesson, that a soldier has to learn.—Secondly, from the composition of the volunteer corps in general, they are of less efficiency and at the same time of more inconvenience to the business of the country, than corps differently composed might be rendered. Many of the volunteers though not beyond the age proper for military service, are yet so far advanced in life, as neither to have the same facility acquiring new habits, nor to be capable of going through the fatigues and hardships of real service with as little personal suffering as men in the prime of youth. From circumstances too in the original formation of the volunteer establishment, the greatest proportion of the men are above the lower class. To serve in a volunteer corps, requires in most instances a pecuniary sacrifice, sufficient to deter the most numerous class of the people, while, on the other hand, many incidental motives have contributed to induce men in the middle classes of society to enter very generally into this service. In conse-
1134
quence of this, the men who are to be employed in repelling the enemy, are in a very great proportion heads of families, or persons whose superintendance is essential, for the management of various agricultural, manufacturing, and commercial establishments, of more or less extensive scale. These men I have no doubt would fight with spirit, if they were led at once to meet the enemy; but if their absence from home should be protracted for a long period, the interruption of their domestic concerns might be of material inconvenience. From this cause it is a matter of great and almost insuperable difficulty to bring together a large body of volunteers, or to keep them embodied for any great length of time. The operations of the enemy may, however, render it indispensable to require this sacrifice from the persons who compose our defensive force. Previously to their grand attempt, the enemy may harass us by frequent false alarms. The volunteers may thus be fatigued by long-continued preparations, or may be disgusted by the frequent recurrence of a summons to the field, repeatedly terminating to no apparent purpose; and, under the impressions to which this may lead, they may perhaps be remiss in their exertions at the moment of the serious attack. This disadvantage would be in a great measure avoided, if the persons who compose our defensive force were of a different description. A young journeyman, or farm-servant, might certainly be spared from his occupation and his home with infinitely less inconvenience than his master; and he would probably fight as well, and stand the fatigues of service much better. There is another important consideration, which leads to the same conclusion. Since lives must be lost in the defence of the country, either the risk ought to tall equally on all; or, if any difference is to be made, those ought to be exempted from the post of danger, whose lives are of most consequence to the good of society. In the volunteer system, the very opposite to this rule takes place: those who are selected to be exposed to the weapons of the enemy, are chiefly men of the middle classes of society, upon most of whom there are many other individuals dependent for their maintenance and their welfare. By any great slaughter among men of this description, the œconomy of society would be deranged, infinitely more than in proportion to the mere numerical amount of lives lost. Such a loss upon a class of men, the peculiar pride and distinguishing feature of our country, would be a national calamity not easily to be repaired; and in this view the

1135
employment of a military force, composed as the volunteers in general are, must be considered as a species of profusion, for which no pecuniary advantage can sufficiently compensate. Lastly, it does not seem equitable that those who are, from their age and circumstances, the most suitable persons to defend the country, should be exempted from this duty, merely because they are not so well disposed as others, who are perhaps by nature less qualified. Still more must it be reckoned unfair, that the pecuniary burthen of the defence of the country should be made to bear harder on the loyal and zealous, than on those who are otherwise. In the establishment of the volunteer corps, a preference was shown, from very natural motives, of public œconomy, to those corps which agreed to serve on terms apparently the least burthen-some to the public revenue. It cannot however be overlooked, that any advantage which could thus be gained to the revenue, could only arise from the individual volunteers taking upon themselves a greater share of the actual expense of their own establishment. The burthen, to which many of them have thus subjected themselves, is of very serious amount, and is evidently a real and effective tax, not less than if it were collected from them, and paid out again from the exchequer, and this tax is levied exclusively from the liberal and the zealous. It must surely appear more consistent with justice, that the whole expense of the defence of the kingdom should be paid by the public at large, and raised from every man according to his pecuniary means; and also that the personal service required should be fixed by law,—that a general rule should point out the description of persons on whom this duty ought to fall, and impose it on them without partiality. For all these reasons, my lords, I think the volunteer system is inferior in equity as well as in efficiency, to the system of training the people at large, first laid down by the act of 1803, commonly called the Levy en Masse Act. That act, though its principles are in my opinion unquestionably just and important, has unfortunately not been carried into execution, and was replaced last year by a new training bill, differing from it in no essential point, and in scarcely any that can be deemed an improvement. Both acts, however, distinctly lay down and proceed upon the great and important principle, that military, service for the internal defence of the kingdom is a general duty on all the subjects of the crown—that it is the right of the state to call for that service, in any way that may be deemed most proper and expedient.—
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The rules for apportioning this service among the people, appear to me to be founded in juster principles in the act of 1803, than in that of last year. A classification is made of the male population of the kingdom, within the ages of military duty, according to the age and domestic circumstances of each individual; and it is the clear intention of the act that the youngest of the men who are come to the age of maturity, and those who are least incumbered with families, ought to be the first called on for military service. The evident propriety of this principle is such as to need no commentary; but in the application of this principle I would incline to deviate in a small degree, from the provisions of the act to which I have alluded. By this act, the first class is to include all unmarried men between the ages of seventeen and thirty. The age of seventeen is perhaps too young:—that of eighteen is low enough to be taken as the standard of manhood: and I should think the first class sufficiently extensive, if it included all from that age to twenty-four or five. Within these limits it does not appear necessary to make any distinction of married or unmarried. The number of married men of this age will not be very numerous: and there is no probability that they should have such numerous families, as to call for any relaxation in their favour. Those who have paid a due attention to the valuable speculations of Mr. Malthus, certainly will not think it a politic measure to make any distinction, that might operate as a temptation to premature marriages among the common people; and, since we must consider the measures now to be adopted as of permanent continuance, these remote effects are not to be overlooked. At all events, the number of married persons of this age cannot be so considerable as to occasion much inconvenience, even though it were necessary to adopt some means of providing for their families at the public expense; and this would be preferable to the allowance of an exemption, which might have the effect of deranging the whole system.—Calculating upon this principle, from approved tables of the ordinary duration of human life, the population of Great Britain would afford nearly 600,000 men between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five; and from the returns made under the Levy en Masse Act, there is ground to believe that, after deducting sea-faring men and all others exempted by that act, there

1137
will remain liable to military duty upwards of 500,000 men within the description of the first class here laid down. This number, my lords, I am inclined to consider as sufficient for the object in view; and on this account it appears to be unnecessary to extend the first class any further. Perhaps, however, it would be advisable to form the men between the ages of twenty-five and thirty into a second class, or body of reserve, to be resorted to in cases of extreme urgency.—The most important question, however, relates to the measures to be adopted for giving these men a sufficient degree of training. It is certainly of more importance, to give a complete training to a moderate proportion of the people, than to extend over the whole that slight degree of instruction, which will not render them capable of the service that may be required from them. The men who are to be trained ought, in my opinion, to be rendered complete soldiers; and I think it a very ill-judged œconomy not to give them a sufficient allowance of time for becoming so. The provisions both of the Levy en Masse act, and of the Training Bill of last year, are in this respect equally objectionable. The duty required is limited in both of them within such narrow bounds, that it is scarcely possible to expect from it any real practical utility. The men are not to be called out more than twenty-four days in the year, and even these can only be reckoned half days, as the men have to go and return from their homes. The limitation too, provided by the Training Bill, that the men are not to be called to a greater distance than five miles from their homes, will, in most instances, effectually prevent the assemblage of any considerable body of men together, without which, the exercise in petty platoons will be of very little use in preparing men for real service.—The anxiety of the framers of these bills, not to interfere with the ordinary avocations of the people, in the attempt to give them military instruction, appears to have been carried to excess, and has led them to adopt regulations calculated totally to defeat the principal object they had in view. A training so very slight and desultory, as that which is provided for, would, in all probability, prove entirely useless; the whole expence would be thrown away; and all the inconvenience arising from the interruption of labour, would be to no purpose. Thus, by an over-anxiety to economize the time of the people, an absolute waste is occa-
1138
sioned. In fact, something like this is ever the result of an attempt to reconcile objects that are incompatible. To train men to military discipline without interfering with their civil avocations, is an absolute impossibility. If men are to act as soldiers, a portion of their time must be devoted to the object of learning the duty of soldiers;—for a certain length of time they must be separated from their families, and cease to be any thing but soldiers. The truth of this principle is fully evinced by the experience of the volunteers. The testimony of every volunteer officer, who has paid attention to the improvement of his corps, is uniform upon this point, that the greatest number of days, devoted to drilling in an unconnected and desultory manner, has never enabled them to make the same progress, that has been obtained in a very small space of time, when the men were assembled in quarters at a distance from their homes, and kept on permanent duty under military law.—In making arrangements, therefore, for training the people to arms, we must reckon upon a considerable sacrifice of their time as absolutely unavoidable. No unnecessary sacrifice ought to be required; but, on the other hand, we ought not to hesitate to make the sacrifice to the full extent that is necessary for the complete attainment of the object. We have then to enquire, what length of time devoted to military discipline may be considered as sufficient, to form new recruits into good soldiers. This is a question on which professional men only can pretend to judge; but on the authority of officers of eminence I am led to believe, that three or four months, when well employed, may in general be found sufficient. An advantage will certainly be found, in this respect, from the description of men who are proposed to be trained. Young men below twenty-five are at a period of life when new habits are easily adopted, and when impressions readily become permanent. Men of this age will probably become good soldiers in a much shorter time, than men of a more advanced age, and will also retain more permanently what they learn. When they have once thoroughly attained the habits of military discipline, a very little practice will be sufficient to keep up these habits even to a late period of life.—Upon these principles, my lords, I would propose to arrange the details of the measure. There should be formed in each county a corps, to consist of all the young men from the age of eigh-

1139
teen to twenty-five. They should be fully officered, and regularly organized as a local militia, but should remain peculiarly under the superintendance of the lieutenantcy, not to be called out of their respective counties, except in cases of emergency. The young men, who have recently entered into this militia, and are in the first year of their service, should be considered as forming a separate class, to be kept embodied for at least three months, and during this time assiduously employed in military exercises. Those who have gone through their first year, and have attained the requisite degree of proficiency, would not require more than a few weeks practice in the course of each of the succeeding years of their service, to keep up the habits of discipline, and ought not to be called out on duty for any longer period than is necessary for this purpose. The most advantageous arrangement would be, that for a few weeks in every summer the whole of this local militia should be assembled in suitable encampments. Being thus collected in considerable numbers, they could the better practise those exercises, which have the nearest resemblance to the operations of real service against the enemy. All officers are agreed as to the importance of collecting men in large bodies for exercises of this kind; and to obtain this benefit in a higher degree, it would be proper that during this general assemblage of the local militia, those of two or three adjacent counties should join in the same encampment, and carry on their exercises in one body.—Immediately after the breaking up of this general assemblage, the annual enrolment should be made of the young men who, in the course of the preceding year, have attained the age of service. Instead of collecting all of them at once, it would be preferable, that they should be classed into different divisions, to join their corps in rotation. By this means the labour of training them would be less burthensome, and smaller number of officers would be sufficient for the task. By this means, also, a certain proportion of the local militia of each county would always be embodied. Corresponding to this proportion, there should be, in each county, a permanent establishment of officers, drawn from the regular army, and acquainted with real service, whose duty it would be, not only to direct the training of the men, but to instruct the younger officers. The superior officers of the local militias ought to be selected, like
1140
the officers of our present militia, from among the principal landed proprietors of the county. Of the subaltern ranks, a considerable proportion would naturally be composed of the young men of superior station, who are enrolled in the local militia, as falling within the ages of service. Young men destined for a military life could not perhaps have a better school, than to be thus employed for a few years, under the superintendance of men of experience, in training a continual succession of recruits to military exercises.—According to the arrangement which has been proposed, there can be little doubt that these corps of local militia would be rendered completely effective, and little inferior even to regular troops which have not actually seen service. This would be done, too, with as little interruption to the ordinary avocations of the people, as could perhaps be reconciled with the effectual accomplishment of the essential object. In the beginning, indeed, a great and extraordinary effort would be necessary: but after the proposed measures had been brought into a regular train, the burthen of duty would be very light on all except the young men of eighteen or nineteen, who are in the first year of their training. There is no other description of men whose absence from their homes and their ordinary occupations would so little interfere with the business of the country. The men of this description may be calculated at between 90 and 100,000 over the whole of Great Britain; and if they join their respective corps according to a plan of rotation, each for three months, there would only be one fourth of these constantly embodied, i. e. never above 25,000 men at one time; and the interruption to the ordinary business of the country would not be greater, than would be occasioned by an addition of this amount to the regular army. To this are to be added the few weeks during which the whole of the local militia would be assembled. If this should be reckoned at three weeks, the individuals subject to this service, would not be called upon for a greater sacrifice of their time than many of the volunteers submit to,—all of them, indeed, who are in any degree fit for real duty; so that this plan cannot be considered as a greater burthen on the country, than an establishment of an equal number of volunteers. It would indeed be less burthensome; for the volunteer corps are in great part composed of men, the real value of whose time is far greater

1141
than that of the young men, of whom it is proposed to form this local militia*.—An exception must no doubt be admitted, for the first moments of this establishment, when a great and extraordinary effort will be necessary, for bringing our state of preparation up to what it would have been, if this system had been sooner adopted. If it had already gone on for some years, all the young men from the age of nineteen to that of twenty-five would now be in a state of full preparation, having entered the local militia at eighteen, and having undergone a thorough training during the first year of their service. As matters actually stand, however, there is a great arrear to be cleared off; and to make up for the tardiness which we have shown in resorting to the system, we have no choice but to take immediate measures for training all the young men below the age of twenty-five—a great and a burthensome effort, no doubt, but one which the exigency of the crisis imperiously demands.—When the system which has been proposed, is compared with that of the volunteers, no doubt can be entertained that its efficiency must be incomparably greater. The men within the ages that have been stated, cannot be reckoned at less than 500,000; and to this extent we should at all times have a force ready at an hour's warning to march against the enemy; a force regularly and systematically disciplined, and on which a commander might fully rely; a force composed of men in the full vigour of life, and animated with all the ardour which characterizes the prime of youthful manhood. With such a force to back our regular army, we might bid defiance to all our enemies. A local militia, constituted in the efficient manner that has been proposed, would certainly be alone sufficient for the defence of all those parts of the coast that are not peculiarly exposed, and where the principal descent of the enemy is not to be expected, The whole of the troops of the line, and of the regular or old established militia, might then be concentrated in one powerful army, in a position calculated to meet the main invasion. If the enemy should succeed in landing an army of such force, as to be an overmatch for that which is thus prepared to receive him in the first
*According to the plan which has been here sketched, the expense incurred to the public would not be very widely different from that of the volunteers, when their establishment was at its height.
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instance, the skill of our commanders would be tried, in avoiding a general action as long as possible. Our army retiring from one strong position to another, towards the interior of the country, would be continually approaching to their re-inforcements, and the local militia pouring in from all sides, would soon form such an addition of force, as to be capable of overwhelming the most powerful army, that the invader would choose to risk in the undertaking. In the course of these operations, indeed, some part of our country would unavoidably be left exposed to the ravages of the enemy, but it is not likely that we should be under the necessity of abandoning the metropolis; for the metropolis itself would furnish so large a re-inforcement, as might, in all probability, decide the fate of the campaign.—The measures that have been suggested, would thus be of great importance in enabling us to meet the immediate exigency, which now presses upon us. But this is only a part of the benefit to be expected from them. Were they established as a permanent system, our means of defence would go on, in a continual progress of improvement. Every year a new crop, it I may use the expression, of nearly 100,000 youths would enter the local militia to begin the acquisition of military discipline; every year a corresponding proportion would quit this militia, but would carry with them habits firmly fixed in that period of life when lasting impressions are most easily made. Every year, therefore, a greater and a greater proportion of our people would be ready to take up arms in defence of their country; and if the dangers of our situation should continue to increase, so that even a force of 500,000 well-disciplined men in aid of our regular army should appear insufficient for our security, the second class of local militia would soon be composed of men who had been thoroughly trained in the first class, and who would still be perfectly capable of doing the duty of soldiers. In process of time, the whole people will have gone through a course of discipline; we shall become, like our enemies, a nation of soldiers; and then England will assuredly be, invincible.—There is no reason for apprehending that this institution will ever relax in its efficacy. Established on a systematic plan, the training of the local militia must go on in peace as well as in war. If there be any probability that peace can be

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obtained, on terms which this country can accept without disgrace, we must assuredly look upon it as a hollow and insecure peace, as a mere truce which the enemy will be ready to break, whenever he can see an opportunity of taking us unawares. But, with the institution that has been sketched, we never can be unprepared to meet an invader. Whether therefore we look to the continuance of war, or whether we may hope for peace, it is of equal importance that we should establish our defence on a system of this kind; a system of permanent efficacy, commensurate with the prospects that are before us, of a long period of unabated danger.—It is not perhaps the least of the recommendations of this proposal, that it will render it possible for us to make peace with a prospect of security. If a peace should be made, we have no reason to suppose that our enemy will abandon his views of conquest, or relinquish his naval preparations. His means of making a successful invasion will be continually on the increase; and an interval of peace will only enable him to augment his naval force with the greater rapidity. On this account many persons, who on general principles are sincere friends of peace, are now advocates for the continuance of war, as being, under our present circumstances, absolutely necessary for our immediate safety. If however we adopt the system which has been proposed, our means of meeting invasion will also be on the increase; and whatever addition our enemy may be able to make, during an interval of peace, to his naval power and his means of attack, we shall be able fully to keep pace with him in the improvement of our means of defence by land. Being thus under no danger of losing in our relative strength during an interval of peace, or of being obliged to renew the war under circumstances of greater disadvantage, in the comparative state of our own force and that of our enemies, the obstacles which now stand in the way of peace, will be in a great measure removed. We may then conclude a peace, with the prospect of undiminished security, and therefore with a prospect of permanence. Perhaps, indeed, if such a system as that now proposed, had been established ten years ago, Europe might have been spared the whole of the present war, and all its disastrous consequences. Our rupture with France might have been avoided, if our internal situation had been such, as
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both to deter the enemy from hostile designs, and to enable our own government to entertain a confidence in our means of defence. Soon after the rupture it was emphatically observed, that we were at war because we could not be at peace. But if our means of defence in the year 1803 had been such as the system now proposed might soon establish, we should not have been under the necessity of resorting to measures of hostility, with a view to our immediate security; neither would the enemy have been disposed to give the provocations which he did, to a power in a contest with which, he could have entertained but little hope of any great or signal success.—When I compare the system which I have now ventured to propose, either in its immediate or its more remote effects, with the measure which has been brought forward by his majesty's ministers, I can scarcely imagine non there can be a doubt in deciding between them, or how your lordships can be satisfied, in such a crisis as the present, with a mere temporary expedient for making a small addition to our regular force: nor is it easy to comprehend on what principle his majesty's ministers can hesitate to adept this or some other plan of equal efficacy, if it be not that they dread the unpopularity of calling upon the people for severe and burthensome sacrifices. If this idea has really been entertained, I am persuaded it is a mistaken one. The people of this country are not so dead to every feeling of patriotism, they are not so insensible to the value of what they have to lose, as to be unwilling to make the sacrifices that are necessary for preserving the name and the privileges of Englishmen, provided they are made distinctly to perceive the necessity, and are fully persuaded that the sacrifices they are to wake will secure their object. On this ground I am persuaded they will acquiesce with more cheerfulness, in such measures as those I have now suggested, than in those which his majesty's ministers call for.—The ballot for which we are desired to vote, lays upon the people an oppressive, because an unequal, burthen, without affording any reasonable probability that our liberties are thereby to be preserved. The ballot, under the name of a demand for military service, we all know to be in effect nothing more than a mode of compelling individuals to pay for substitutes: these substitutes differ in nothing from the recruits who enter the army by voluntary enlistment, except that

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in the one case the bounty is paid out of the general revenues of the state, in the other the payment is imposed on individuals, without any regard to their ability to pay: the ballot is thus nothing more than a tax, the most objectionable in principle that can be imagined—a mere poll-tax, the most unequal and oppressive form in which money can be levied. When this burthen is laid upon the people to make a trifling addition to our regular force, such an addition as will scarcely diminish in a perceptible degree the perils of our situation, can it be supposed that the people will submit to it with the same alacrity, as they would to an effective demand of real military service, imposed according to an equal and impartial rule, on those to whom it will be least burthensome, and the operation of which must be to put an end to all anxiety respecting the security of the kingdom?—But in truth, my lords, I cannot bring myself to believe that in such a crisis as the present, his majesty's ministers can be actuated by such a despicable motive as the fear of unpopularity—that their anxiety for the preservation of their places can go so far, as to make them overlook the danger to which they expose themselves, as well as their king and their country. The situation of things is now such, that there is no possibility of saving the nation, without resorting, in one form or another, to burthensome and severe measures. It would be mere state quackery to delude the people with any different expectation. The time is past when a minister might have indulged a tenderness for the comforts and the convenience of the people. We have now to make our measures effectual,—to that consideration must every other bend; and of those who complain of hardship there is but one question to be asked, whether the hardships imposed on them are worse than the rigours of French despotism?—Perhaps, however, it may be alleged, that I am now proposing a superfluous and unnecessary degree of preparation. But this, my lords, I cannot admit. When we consider the immense military resources that may be brought to bear against us, when we consider the number of points from which we may be assailed, and the extent of coast which we must be prepared to guard; above all, when we consider the hazard in which the whole empire is involved, from the prevalence of disaffection in Ireland, the force that would be gained by the adoption of the measures I have now
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suggested, cannot be deemed extravagantly great for meeting the exigencies to which we may ere long be reduced. But were it otherwise, it is right that our preparations should be superabundant: if the least shadow of doubt can remain as to their sufficiency, they are not what they ought to be. Even on principles or œconomy, our defensive force ought to be ample and superabundant. Granting that a more scanty plan of preparation should ultimately prove sufficient, and that the invader should in the end be repulsed; yet if this is to be done after a severe contest on English ground, our country would suffer from the desolation of a protracted warfare, far greater losses than would be sufficient to balance the utmost inconvenience, that could possibly be apprehended from preparations unnecessarily great. By providing ample means of defence, we have the best chance of deterring our enemy from the attempt at invasion, and thus saving our country from the ravages of war, or at least of shortening their duration by insuring the speedy overthrow of the invader. But can any one reflect for a moment upon the countless horrors that would ensue if our means of defence should prove inadequate, can any one reflect that it is for the liberties, for the very existence of England that we are to fight,—and be content with scanty preparations? Who is there that can imagine without horror, our aged and beloved monarch weltering in his blood,—his place occupied by a heptarchy of French usurpers, the minions of the conqueror,—the family of our sovereigns, along with the sad remains of, all that is now eminent and dignified in England, wandering as exiles in foreign lands, while the mansions of our nobility are parcelled out to French generals, and every thing that is desirable in England becomes the prey of a Frenchman,—all the comforts which industry and œconomy have accumulated around the dwellings of our yeomanry, our tradesmen, and our manufacturers, scattered to the winds, the pillage of a licentious soldiery,—all the civil and religious institutions, that have hitherto been the boast of Britain, trampled under foot,—our people left to groan under the oppression and contumely of insolent and domineering strangers, forced to submit to every wrong and to every insult, with the sad reflection, that they have no longer the protection of English law, of an English magistracy, or an English jury*? All this, my lords,
This is but a faint and feeble sketch of the

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and yet more than this, we have to guard against; and shall we then consider the inconvenience, of making preparations rather greater than absolutely necessary, as deserving of a moment's thought?—By the adoption of the measures which I have detailed, our situation may be rendered perfectly secure; and if our activity and resolution be commensurate with the exigency of the crisis, a very few months may be sufficient to bring our preparations to maturity. With such a local militia, as I have suggested, to back the efforts of our regular force, I should consider our army as already sufficiently numerous; or at least there would be no necessity, of resorting to a measure so objectionable as the ballot, for obtaining an immediate augmentation of our disposable force.—I am ready to admit to the noble secretary of state the advantages, which a regular and disposable force must have over an equal number of troops of any other description, even for the purposes of defence. But these advantages may be purchased too dear: and certainly, if ever there was a conjuncture of affairs, in which these advantages were of less value than usual, it is the present. If ever there was a time when the immediate defence of the kingdom ought to engross our thoughts, to the exclusion of every distant object, it is now. But, from the observations of a noble lord, who spoke in support of this bill, it would appear that ministers are thinking of Alexandria, and the Cape, and South America, when they should be looking to Kent and to Essex. Gracious heavens! is it possible that infatuation can be carried to this length?—that when the existence of England is in question, her strength is to be wasted in distant expeditions and colonial conquests? Gladly would I hope that the noble lord has misconceived the ideas of his friends; but the extreme anxiety which is manifested for a disposable force, and the whole tenour of the measure before us, form such a commentary on the observation that dropped from the noble lord, as fills me with dread and anxiety. As if our internal defence were not already sufficiently precarious, his majesty's ministers propose to make a trifling augmentation to our disposable force, at the expense of disorgani-
consequences of French conquest: but the picture has been drawn in detail, and with a was masterly hand, by the author of The Dangers of the Country;—a picture which Englishmen would do well to look at, while yet the danger may be averted.
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zing the militia, suspending its efficiency at most critical moment, and disgusting its officers; and to gain a momentary addition to the total amount of our force, they propose an expedient which will give a serious interruption to the measures, that have lately been adopted, for the permanent improvement of the regular army.—Looking, my lords, to the dangers of our situation as likely to be permanent, I cannot agree to sacrifice to a mere momentary convenience the lasting and important advantages arising from the measures I have alluded to—measures, founded on a just and profound view of human nature, the benefits of which every year's experience will render more apparent, and which will do lasting honour both to the administration which carried them into effect, and to the enlightened individual with whom they more particularly originated. The observation of the noble secretary of state, that the interference will only be temporary, is not in my mind a satisfactory answer to the objection; for the benefit to be expected from these measures depends in so great a degree, on a general belief in the permanence of the new system, that any thing which has even the appearance of tampering, must have a destructive effect in shaking the confidence of the country. I am the more inclined to insist on this objection, because the interference which I deprecate, is wholly unnecessary. I have stated, my lords, that by the establishment of an extensive and well-trained local militia, we should preclude the necessity of any great and immediate addition to our regular force. But it is not on this alone, that I rest my objection; for if such an addition be necessary, and it a compulsatory levy for the immediate augmentation of our regular and militia forces be unavoidable, that levy may be enforced, without affecting in any degree the success of the new system of enlistment.—The mode in winch the ballot interferes with the recruiting of the regular army, has been repeatedly and amply illustrated. It is now admitted on all hands, that the demand for substitutes establishes a competition against the recruiting service; and that when an extensive ballot is to be enforced, the price of substitutes will be so high, that no recruits can be expected to accept of the low bounty now offered for the regular army. This is the unavoidable effect of a ballot accompanied, as ours now is, with the power of substitution; but it is evident, that this effect, arises from substitution and

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not fromballot,—that no such effect would arise from a ballot, if the individuals balloted were to serve in person.—I know my lords, that the power of serving by substitute is considered as necessary, for mitigating the severity of the ballot, and for obviating the excessive hardship which might be occasioned in particular cases, it the individual whose name is drawn were under the absolute necessity of quitting his home and his business. But this hardship may be obviated by other means less objectionable than the power of serving by substitute. I would propose, my lords, as a commutation for this power, that those who are anxious to avoid the necessity of serving in person, should be allowed, upon payment of an adequate pecuniary fine, before the ballot takes place, to take their name out of the list of those subject to be drawn. When every individual has thus an opportunity of withdrawing himself beforehand from the operation of the ballot, there would be no necessity of leaving any power of serving by substitute, and those whose names are actually drawn, should be bound to serve in person. It is evident, that by this arrangement, we should avoid the pernicious effect of the ballot, in drawing off, as substitutes, persons who would otherwise be disposed to enlist into the troops of the line. At the same time, it does not appear that such an arrangement would occasion to individuals any greater oppression than the present form of ballot, since the payment of a fine before the ballot would not be a more severe tax, than the burthen of paying a substitute after it.—I do not mean, my lords, to argue, that this arrangement would be sufficient to do away every objection to the ballot. That is certainly an institution which I think it would be very desireable to avoid altogether; and I would anxiously wish that the supply of men, for our regular force of all descriptions, could be trusted entirely to the operation of voluntary enlistment. If, however, that is impracticable; if a compulsory levy must be made, and if ballot must be resorted to, I cannot but consider this as a less objectionable form of ballot than that now established. Perhaps, by some further ameliorations, the oppressive severity of that institution might be still more alleviated. The age of the men subject to the operation of the ballot should be reduced, and ought not, I think, to extend beyond twenty-five years: the period of service imposed should also be limited
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to three years, as in the original institution of the militia. The unavoidable hardship of the ballot, its interference with the personal liberty of individuals, ought to be compensated by great liberality in pecuniary bounty. In particular, all the fines paid for exemption from the ballot, ought to be applied, by the magistracy of the district in which they are levied, to the use of the balloted men, or of their families.—The ballot, thus mitigated, would be liable to infinitely less objection than it now is; and might perhaps be used for obtaining a much larger addition to our regular domestic force, than that now proposed by his majesty's ministers. There are some parts of the empire, to which a local militia, such as I have proposed, could not perhaps be safely extended. The inhabitants of these parts would thus be exempted from the burthen of a military duty, imposed on the rest of their fellow subjects; and as a commutation for this duty, it may not be improper, that the corresponding class of men there should be subject to a ballot in the mitigated form, which I have now pointed out. The population of the districts, to which I allude, might afford a large supply of men, without any material interruption to agricultural or manufacturing industry: and all the supply that can be obtained would be doubly useful, both as directly adding to the military force of the empire, and as draining off a leaven which may eventually become dangerous.—But, my lords, whatever compulsory levy may be resolved upon, I must concur in the opinion, which has already been urged with irresistible force of argument, that the balloted men ought to be placed in the second battalions of our marching regiments, on the principle Of the Army of Reserve act, rather than in the militia. To ballot for an addition to the militia, in order to have an opportunity of drawing off a corresponding number of men from the militia into the line, seems to me to involve a very inconvenient complication, without any adequate motive whatever. The pernicious effects which may be expected, from disturbing the discipline and efficiency of the militia regiments at such a moment as this, have been clearly pointed out by a noble viscount (Sidmouth), as well as the effect which this measure must have, in undermining the present militia establishment altogether, by disgusting the officers. Their patience has already been sufficiently tried, in the frequent repetition of the same

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expedient, tending to impress them with the idea that their corps are to be degraded into mere subsidiary battalions, to be employed in drilling recruits for the line. But if ever this expedient was objectionable, it is doubly so at this moment, when the defence of the kingdom should be our chief concern, and when the militia is more likely than ever to be called into that active service for resisting invasion, for which their institution was peculiarly framed.—These topics, my lords, have already been so ably discussed, that it would be presumptuous in me to suppose, that I could add any thing to the force of the arguments that have been urged. I shall conclude, therefore, with declaring that I cannot give my assent to the bill now before us, when its particular provisions appear to me so objectionable, when the advantages to be expected from it are so inconsiderable, and when its immediate objects would be rendered wholly superfluous, by the adoption of measures commensurate with the exigency of our situation.—The question being then put, that the bill be read a second time, a division took place: Contents 42; Non-Contents, 15; Majority, 27.