Sitting of 7 August 1807

EAST INDIA BUDGET.
Mr. R. Dundasrose, pursuant to notice, to move a resolution pledging the house to take into consideration early in the next session, the Accounts relative to the Revenue Charges and Commercial Concerns of the East India Company, presented on the 10th and 18th June last, commonly called, the Accounts of the East India Budget. It would be impossible in the present session to give to this subject the ample consideration to which it was entitled, and therefore he thought it better to postpone the statement and discussion till the next session. After some observations from Mr. Creevey, who reserved to himself the right of going into farther particulars than the mere East India Accounts, commonly called the India Budget, the resolutions were agreed to.—On the motion of Mr. Dundas several additional papers, illustrative of the conduct of the government of India towards the Polygars were ordered, with the design of giving the fullest and fairest view of the Polygar question.
Mr. Creeveystated, that when the Polygar question should come to be discussed, he meant to contend that the conduct of the British government to the Polygars had been the cause of the mutiny at Vellore; one of the regiments concerned, the second battalion of the 23d native infantry having been recruited in the Polygar country. On the promise of the right hon. gent. opposite to bring forward such accounts as had been, or should be received on that subject, and from a wish to await the arrival of those most materially interested in the transaction, he should not now offer the motion of which he had given notice for this day. He however gave notice, that early in the ensuing session, he should move that there be laid before the house copies of all letters written by marquis Cornwallis on the subject of the
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subsidiary treaties concluded by marquis Wellesley, and generally on the administration of India by that nobleman.

ASSESSED TAXES BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill for the better regulating the collection of the Assessed Taxes. As the bill was to lie over for consideration till the next session, he did not think it necessary to trouble the house, by entering into its details. One particular alteration in the existing practice he thought it necessary to notice. This was to divide the duties of the commissioners, and transfer them, so far as they were ministerial, to the subordinate officers. With respect to the collection of the taxes, it was intended, as no man could object to the payment of the taxes incident to the return he should give in, to authorise the collection of the taxes to that amount immediately leaving the taxes upon surcharges to abide the decisions upon the questions arising out of them. There was at present this evil, that the collection of the taxes, so far as they were certain and unquestionable, as they were on the returns made by the individuals taxed, was suspended, till the validity of the surcharges, which-were uncertain, was decided. He thought it necessary to point out this material alteration to particular attention, preparatory to the further consideration in the ensuing session.
Mr. Barhamwished a remedy could be provided for the great grievances that arose out of surcharges. The difficulty of finding redress in cases of vexatious surcharge was often very great, and sometimes it amounted to an absolute impossibility. He had himself obtained redress of such surcharges made upon him, but it was with great difficulty; and in some similar instances he knew several other persons to have totally failed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerbelieved, that the commissioners of taxes did every thing in their power to a facility of decision in cases of appeals on surcharge, and redress in cases of vexatious surcharge; but if any means of greater facility on these heads could be pointed out, he should be happy to give his aid in carrying it into effect.
Mr. W Smithwas afraid that the time was fast approaching when the officers in that department would necessarily be filled by men in the pay of government. He did not throw this Out invidiously, but certainly the abuses of the present mode of estimating and collecting the property tax was liable to and might ultimately render the tax itself not

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only intolerable, but not fit to be borne by the people. The fact was, that the majority of those officers were ever anxious to detect deficient estimates, not for the purpose of making the tax more productive to the nation, but that they might have their own share out of the surcharge.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, it was not intended to take away the powers now exercised by the commissioners; but merely to authorise the collection of the undisputed duties on the returns originally made, without awaiting the decision of the commissioners on the duties contested in the way of surcharge on appeal. It was impossible to obtain the supervision which was frequently necessary without allowing some interest to the person who detected the fraud; but when the surcharge was groundless the commissioners were always ready to afford relief, and when it was vexatious, to inflict punishment.
Mr. P. Moorewas glad to hear that the bill was to be printed, so that members might be able to peruse it before next session. He hoped, however, that while pains were taken to make people understand the law by which they were taxed, they would also find that the payment of taxes was made easier to them. Of what utility, he would ask, were those numerous reports which were laid before the house, of every kind, if they were not acted upon for the public benefit? He hoped therefore that ministers would see to these things, before next session. As the representative of a large industrious city, he could say for his constituents, that they were ready to make any sacrifices for the public good, and to support their share in its splendour; yet they expected economy in the disposition of the national money, and that their distresses might be lessened. If these economical reports were heaped on the table without use, he should find it his duty to tell ministers that he would vote smaller supplies than he otherwise might have intended, were more frugality and attention shewn.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerentirely agreed with the hon. gent. as to the necessity of economy at the present crisis, and a cautious expenditure of the public money. At the same time, he could not approve of the vague and incautious manner in which the hon. gent. had thought proper to fling out his charges. The remarks were of a nature so general and indefinite, that he did not know how to reply to them. If the hon. gent. had any thing definite to state in public or private, he should feel himself much obliged to the hon. gent. for such communi-
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cation. As to the reports which were said to be heaped upon the table, he wished the hon. gent. would again be more definite, and, selecting one or more from the number, state explicitly what he understood to be the existing abuse; this certainly would be much more satisfactory than dealing in loose and general observations.
Mr. P. Mooresaid in explanation, that he alluded to the different reports in the various departments, civil, military, and marine, whereby it was obvious that there might be a saving by a more economical management in each, of the public money, to an amount of between five and ten millions annually.
Sir T. Turtonput it to his majesty's ministers, to consider the necessity and the means of affording a more immediate relief to the persons entitled to exemptions under the income tax: these persons were at present obliged to pay the full amount of the tax in the first instance, and they found it extremely difficult afterwards to obtain the relief allowed to them.
Mr. Whitbreadstated, that he, as well as the hon. baronet, had received complaints of very severe hardships, in the manner in which the income tax was levied on the lower classes. He was sure if his noble friend (lord H. Petty) had continued in office, the necessary relief would have been afforded to the persons so pressed. He hoped the hon. gentlemen opposite would consider of the means of affording them some alleviation.
Dr. Laurencelamented, that in proportion as the property tax had been made more burthensome, the means of relief had been made more difficult in the cases in which no law could presume to withhold it.
Lord H. Pettystated it to have been his desire and intention, that every real grievance under the property tax, as it had been increased and regulated by him, should be satisfactorily redressed; but he thought it, in the first instance, desirable, that the whole of the provisions should have a fair trial; for it was only such a trial that could afford proof of the reality, or the futility, of the objections which were so universally made. He was desirous, now that a fair trial had been afforded, to give all proper relief, but he could assure the house, that much difficulty would be felt, when the means of giving that relief consistently with the produce of the tax should came to be considered.—The motion for leave to bring in the bill was then agreed to.

OFFICES IN REVERSION.
Mr. Bankesin consequence of the notice he had given, rose to submit a motion, which he thought necessary as a preliminary step towards any proceeding which the house should think proper to adopt, with respect to the measure founded on a resolution of that house, which had been rejected in the other. The only way of bringing the rejection of the bill to prevent grants of Offices in Reversion in the upper house, before the view of this house, would be to appoint a committee to inspect the lords' Journals, as to what had been done there with respect to that bill. That Committee might report to-morrow, and on the report he should found a motion which be would submit to the house on Monday. He accordingly moved, "that a committee be appointed to inspect the Journals of the house of lords, with relation to the bill sent from this house to the lords, intituled, An Act to prohibit the granting of Offices in Reversion, or for joint lives, with benefit of survivorship; and to make report thereof to the house." A committee was appointed accordingly.

CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL—GENERAL STATE OF AFFAIRS.
—On the order of the day for the third reading of the Consolidated Fund bill,
Mr. Whitbreadrose and observed, that as it seemed evident the session was about to close, he thought it his duty to make two or three remarks on the extraordinary situation of the country, at a period when ministers were about to prorogue parliament. The house had before them several notices of motions upon subjects of the greatest importance. The bills for the defence of the country were just gone up to the other house to be discussed there; and they had heard speeches from a noble lord (Castlereagh), stating that there were other measures necessary in his opinion, but which the session would be too short to enable him to introduce. A notice had also been given of a motion to consider the present trying situation of the West India planters, and a motion had been made to inspect the Lords' Journals, for the purpose of taking an important subject into consideration. He knew that we had just sent out a very large expedition, which it was supposed had not gone to any great distance, and from which, therefore, intelligence, it was to be presumed, might very soon be expected; and its results would be most important to the country, whether successful or otherwise. He knew also that a treaty had been concluded between Prussia, one of our allies, and France,
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the particulars of which were public; and that there was also a treaty signed between France and another of our allies, Russia, of the greatest consequence, but as yet unknown. From the terms of the treaty with Prussia, however, we learned that the emperor Alexander, who, it had been said, had acted with so much magnanimity, had consented to take a considerable portion of the territory of his late ally and friend the king of Prussia. The king of Sweden, our remaining ally, was confessedly in a most critical situation, and a British force was sent out to assist him. Under all these circumstances, and with the alarming state of the East India Company, almost in a state of impending ruin; with so extraordinary a vote of credit asked on account of large sums being wanted, in the probability of the volunteers being called out on permanent duty for several months, which portended an expectation of a speedy invasion, or appearance of the enemy upon the coast; under all these circumstances, he wanted to know what advice was given, or to be given by ministers to their sovereign, respecting a prorogation of parliament. He thought that ministers, who had advised the dissolution of the last parliament, were bound to counsel his majesty to keep the present parliament together, till time was afforded them to consider these various important subjects, which so much interested the country. He feared, that the very large vote of credit that had been taken was on the ground, not only of an intention to prorogue parliament soon, but also on a determination not to call it together again for a long time.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercould not answer as to the time that knight elapse before parliament would be called together again: the first prorogation would he but for a short time, the subsequent prorogations would also be but for short periods, so as to afford a facility of early assemblage, if the exigency of affairs should require. The inconveniences with which a longer attendance of the members would be attended at the present season, was an irresistible reason for proroguing as soon as the state of public business would admit: along with the facility afforded by short prorogations from time to time to the assembling of parliament as soon as any particular occasion should render it necessary, the crown possessed the power of calling it together at any time at a fort night's notice.
Lord H. Pettyafter the extraordinary vote of credit which had passed the house at an

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early hour of the morning on a former day, a vote exceeding in amount any former vote of credit, even those passed at times when there was a prospect of large continental cooperation, thought his hon. friend well warranted in making the observations he had made, and requiring the explanations he had demanded. From the unprecedented amount of the vote, and the strange time at which it had passed, the house ought to look narrowly to the appropriation of it. After what had happened on the continent, and after two months had elapsed of the period which was to be provided for, this diminution of the period, the exigencies of which were to be covered, ought to reduce, rather than increase the amount of the vote; yet, when his majesty's present ministers had added £1,300,000 to the public expenditure, they demanded still £700,000 more; and why? because it might be necessary to call out the volunteers on permanent duty. This would not be necessary except in case of invasion or alarm of invasion, when it seemed it was not thought that parliament should be assembled. These unprecedented sums were moreover voted entirely on confidence, and without any estimate whatsoever, and were proposed without any other object than to prevent the necessity of calling parliament together again for a long time. The vote of credit, asked by his majesty's late ministers, was intended to cover £800,000 arrears of subsidies, and to allow the means of contingent engagement with the continental powers. It was intended also to cover the great expences incurred in the Mediterranean; but, in the present instance, it was necessary that the house should look to a vote large beyond all precedent, and founded on no document, no statement, no calculation, and no determination. This being a money bill, he should take occasion to do justice to his noble friend now absent (lord Howick), who had been on a former night accused of having given pledges to the continental powers, and of having provided no means of carrying those pledges into effect. It was not his noble friend alone, nor his fellow ministers, that he was most anxious to vindicate from this charge of pledge and forfeiture, but the country, whose faith and honour would be tarnished, unless the imputation could be done away. His noble friend had enabled him to state precisely, with regard to the promise of aid held out to Sweden, that the engagement was not to take effect except in the event of a particular contingency. If the contingency should have arisen, the aid
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was to have been given in cavalry, in which species of force the Swedish army was deficient, and for which Pomerania afforded an excellent theatre. Means of conveyance could easily have been found at any time for that portion of cavalry that would be required in this service. But the contingency on which the aid was to be sent had never arisen. He left it to the house under these circumstances, whether any breach of faith could be imputed to the late government. It was not stated that there was any thing in the official documents left by his noble friend in the department over which he had presided; it was not stated that any thing had passed in any verbal communication of his noble friend with the ministers of the powers in question, which warranted the expectation of a general military aid on the part of the continental powers, much less any breach of faith in not having sent such aid. Nothing, in fact, had been done in the way of holding forth such aid, except the assurance to Sweden, which turned upon a contingency which had never occurred. He condemned the abrupt prorogation of parliament, at a time when so many measures were pending which required deliberate consideration and discussion. Suspension acts were passed with an indecent rapidity which ought never to be seen, even in the justest exercise of one of the most delicate functions of parliament, All these things, and the large vote of credit, indicated an intention of speedily separating parliament, and separating it for a long time. The house ought to look to the circumstances, and though these circumstances might have arisen from the late dissolution, the ministers whose act that dissolution was could not plead that excuse.
Lord Castlereaghwas glad that the noble lord had confirmed what he had stated on a former night, so far as that a promise of aid had been held out to Sweden, and that such aid was to have been in cavalry. He did not understand what the noble lord meant, when he asserted that the contingency in which the aid was to have been given, had not occurred. Sweden certainly did think, that the contingency had occurred, and that the occasion was so far gone by, without the fulfilment of our engagement, that material injury had been suffered in consequence. Russia and Prussia also complained, that their interests had suffered materially from the neglect of sending the aid that had been promised. Though the cavalry was the most material part, infantry also was expected. But what entirely wrought the condem-

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nation of the late ministers was, that even if the contingency, on which the aid was to have been afforded, had in their own opinions arisen, they were completely disqualified from affording it, a great supply of tonnage being necessary for the conveyance of cavalry, and no such supply existing.
Mr. Windhamcalled upon the house to observe the different statements of the hon. gentlemen when they made their first attack, and afterwards when they were pressed by facts. He appealed to the house, whether the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Secretary Canning) had not on a former night asserted, that when he came into office he was assailed by pressing solicitations and remonstrances from every quarter for military aid, the promise of which had been held forth. Now, it appeared that such a promise had been held forth to Sweden alone, and even that was incidental. It might be said, to be sure, that the remaining allied powers were cramped in their operations, in consequence of this aid being withheld from Sweden, and of that power being disabled from creating the intended diversion. That, perhaps, might literally make good the accusation brought by the right hon. gent.; but it was very far indeed from making it good in the spirit in which it had been urged by the right hon. gent. No promise had been made and forfeited. The contingency upon which the aid was to have been given, had not in his opinion, and that of his friends, occurred. The other powers, according to the statement of the right hon. secretary, asserted it did take place. In this contradiction, he should not think it wise to rely on the assertion of those who were interested in receiving the aid. The fairest standard would be to ask the right hon. gent. himself, whether, on the review of the papers in his office, such expectations were well founded? No attention was to be paid to the insinuations of neglected expectations and forfeited pledges, unless they took upon themselves to say, that in their own opinion, such expectations were directly held forth; otherwise he must contend, without allowing for the prejudice which he might feel, that the statement of his noble friend (lord Howick) was as much to be relied on as that of any other minister foreign or domestic. With respect to the charge of being unprepared for the contingency, if it had taken place, it was to be considered, that its approach would have been observed; for it was not to be supposed his majesty's late ministers would have suffered it to come by
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surprise upon them, as the present state of the continent had come upon the present ministers. He should have thought the assertion of the deficiency of preparation to meet the contingencies too bold. But there was this invitation to unauthorised boldness in this case, that the statement could not be contradicted, for it was impossible to fix the time at which the contingency could be said to have arisen. The late government had left in the hands of their successors, to the best of his recollection, 49 or 50,000 tons of sheathed transports, which was sufficient for the conveyance of 5000 or 6000 men. No offer of sheathed transports had been refused, and only the small transports, which could be always had on the moment, were discharged. Under these circumstances it could not be said that the late ministers were unprepared for the contingency on which aid was to be sent, in case that contingency had arisen. The facts of the existing supplies might be shewn by a comparative account from the Transport Board, of the amount of transports received and left by the late ministers.
Mr. Secretary Canningwas at a loss to conceive what advantage the right hon. gentlemen opposite proposed to derive from the renewal of this discussion. He was still more surprised to find that they conceived they had derived advantages from it. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) could not assert any difference on his part from his former statement, for he had not yet spoken. He did say that great expectations of pecuniary and military aid from us were entertained by the allied powers. The expectations held out might have been excited, either by communications to his majesty's ministers here, to the ministers of the allied powers to his majesty's court, or they might be communicated by our resident ministers at the courts of the allied powers, in their conferences with the ministers of those powers. The course of the Foreign Office combined these two modes of transacting business. The hon. gentlemen opposite first threw out a general challenge to alledge any one particle of promise of aid, and then, when the promise to Sweden was cited, the noble lord opposite came down and confirmed the fact, and the rt. hon. gent. opposite triumphed in the conformation. He had now to re-state the fact with the high additional authority of the noble lord. The vague nature of a contingency, which one power could consider as arrived, and another as not arrived, warranted him in the argu-

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ment that to leave the terms of the arrangement. I gent undefined, was the sure way of exciting general and large expectations. He repeated, that great expectations of military aid were entertained, not only by Sweden, but by Russia and Prussia, and this latter power was warranted in the expectation by the British resident minister (lord Hutchinson). He would not say that this expectation went so far as to look for a British military force in the line of the Russian and Prussian armies. The objects Russia and Prussia sought for would be best promoted by the co-operation of on English force with Sweden, in creating a diversion on the rear of the French armies. As to the transports, he saw no objection to the production of the comparative accounts at the commencement of the late and the present administration; but it was not enough that the late government had left a large general supply of transports, as those employed on distant service, such as the expedition to Buenos Ayres and Egypt, were nothing to the present purpose. The point in question was the existence of a sufficient supply for transporting troops to the continent, if that should be judged necessary. He could not allow that no preparation ought to be made till the exigency should have arrived. He had heard of bold invaders who had burned their transports on effecting a landing, in order to render it more indispensable to conquer; but for a nation that intended to send assistance to omit providing transports, was the strangest proceeding ever known, and remained for the invention of the hon. gentlemen opposite to find out.
Mr. Windhamin explanation, said, he spoke particularly of transport tonnage immediately disposable for service, of which the late government had left more than it had received. No coppered ships had been refused; none had been discharged. He admitted that aid to Sweden might have Nerved Russia and Prussia. But what he complained of was the difference in the statements. The contingency could not come on without notice of its approach, unless the late ministers should have been surprised, as the present ministers admitted they were, by the events on the continent.
Dr. Laurencedefended the late ministers against the charge of holding forth expectations, and failing to fulfil them. If the expectations were held forth by our ministers to the court of Sweden, or our ministers to the other sovereigns, where were the instructions they had to do so? It was desirable that all the papers relating to the
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subject should be produced, and he saw no reason why they should not, as no inconvenience could arise from the publication of them as matters now stood on the continent.
Mr. Secretary Canningasserted, that by the confession of the hon. gentlemen opposite, expectations had been entertained by the continental powers of assistance from this country. He had not admitted that the contingency had not arisen. It might be his opinion that it had arisen, but he put it hypothetically, whether it had or not, the late ministers had made no preparations for it. If, therefore, the contingency had arisen, they did not keep themselves in such a situation as to enable them to fulfil their promises.
Mr. Windhamin explanation, contended that no expectations had been held out, even upon the sheaving of the other side, which had not been performed. What then became of the exaggerated expectations and disappointments about which so much had been said?
Sir T. Turtonobserved, that if an additional sum was wanting, it might be in contemplation of a possible dispute with America, and insisted that if this country should be forced to a war with America, the late ministers had by their lenity, and too strong a bias for conciliation, given occasion to it, since they had treated with a pistol at their breasts. They ought to have insisted, in the first instance, that the Non-importation act should be repealed. If we should have a war with America, then, it was owing to their own concessions, and how could they oppose a grant which had arisen out of their own misconduct? Another reason for the enlarged credit might be the expences of the volunteer force. He hoped that this force would be put upon a more effective footing; that measures would be adoped for their better organization and discipline. We could not do without them, and it was requisite that we should have them in as perfect a state as possible. The country looked for this—the volunteers themselves looked for it, and what he meant was some further authority to the officers, and encouragement to the men. He also thought the Training bill ought to be put in execution with all possible dispatch, for he considered the object of that bill as a sort of basket in a stage-coach. It had been said on the other side, that insinuations had been thrown out against them. Of all things that he had heard from ministers against their predecessors, it had been most unlike insinuation,

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It was directly charged that certain expectations had been raised in certain powers of the continent, that assistance was promised on a certain contingency, and if that contingency had happened, it was manifest from the state in which the transport service had been left, that the promise could not have been fulfilled. He did not say that it certainly appeared that the contingency had happened, although it appeared to be the opinion of some, that the contingency had happened; but at all events this was positively asserted, that in case the contingency had occurred, there were no means of carrying the promise into effect.—When the situation of the country was considered, however, he hoped that all party differences would be laid aside, and that unanimity would every where prevail. With regard to peace he should approve of it, if procured on any conditions that would not compromise the honour and the security of the country. It had been said that France would have an opportunity of extending her preparations in time of peace, and that peace therefore was peculiarly dangerous. He considered this as absurd and ridiculous. Whatever advantages France could derive from peace, he was confident that this country would derive equal, if not superior advantages from it. If France should have resources in peace, we would have them also, at least in an equal degree; and therefore, he was of opinion that there could be no danger to us from peace upon that score.
Mr. Hibbertadverted to the outcry that had been raised some time ago about the want of employment for our shipping, which he considered as inconsistent with the present deliberations of ministers. They now seemed to intimate that it was impossible to procure shipping for a three months voyage at a short warning. Was this consistent with their former assertions? With regard to the promises that were said to be made to foreign powers, it appeared now that they had dwindled down to expectations on the part of our allies on the continent. This statement of expectations entertained on the other side of the water, were certainly very far from supporting the allegation of promises made on a former occasion.
Mr. Rosemaintained, that the statement of the ship owners, with respect to the shipping interest, had been perfectly correct, and that it was not inconsistent with the allegations, that transports could not be procured at a moment's warning. What his noble friend had said was, that there was no
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proper provision of transports for cavalry, which was the sort of force that had been promised. These could not be procured at a moment's warning. If an expectations had been raised in the minds of our allies, and no efforts had been made to counteract these expectations, he certainly could not perceive that they differed materially from a positive promise.
Mr. Hibbertin explanation said, that what he had stated was, that it had been asserted that promises had been made to our allies, and that these promises had now dwindled down to expectations, on one side, however unreasonable these expectations might be.
The Hon. J. W. Wardadverted to what had been said by the hon. baronet under the gallery, respecting insinuations. Certainly, if it was asserted that expectations had been clearly held out of assistance upon certain contingencies, and these contingencies had happened and no assistance had been sent, the matter became a serious and heavy charge. The late ministers had unquestionably been guilty of a crime against this country and against Europe. But in this case, instead of bringing forward these things for the sake of adorning a speech, instead of introducing them in order to turn a period, a distinct motion ought to have been made on the subject, that the house might have an opportunity of passing sentence, upon a deliberate investigation of the affair and clear itself both to the country and to Europe. This was what he called upon ministers to do if they had any grounds for the charge.
Mr. W. Smithobserved, that the hon. bart. had been most unfortunate in alluding to America, while he was recommending unanimity; every word upon that subject was to be carefully avoided at present, and any allusion to it was most imprudent and dangerous. Ministers had certainly a most difficult and important task imposed upon them in this affair, and any allusions to the lenient proceedings of the late government, were very much out of time. He thought that the Training bill ought to be put in immediate execution, and all the measures for putting us in a proper state of defence forwarded without a moment's delay. He perfectly agreed in what had been said by the hon. bart. respecting the advantages of peace, and hoped that his opinions on that point would have the weight which they deserved.—The bill was then passed. On the question as to the title of the bill,
Mr Whitbreadobserved, that the charges preferred by the right hon. secretary (Mr.

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Canning) against his noble relative (lord Howick) were of such magnitude, that he wished them to be distinctly stated. Was the charge specifically this, that the late administration had promised to the king of Sweden an assistance of cavalry on contingencies, and, when those contingencies occurred, the cavalry were not sent? This ought to be inquired into. The right hon. gent. had also stated hypothetically, that if contingencies had arisen, the late government would have been unable to fulfil their engagements. This ought also to be inquired into; for, if it could be proved that his noble friend had held out such promises, and violated them, he would be proved unfit for his situation, and in that case his crime ought to be known and punished. The right hon. gent. farther stated, that specific promises of assistance had been made to Sweden, Russia, and Prussia. He wished to know what promises to Sweden, except of money for augmenting her force—a promise which had been carried into effect by the present administration. As to Prussia, it was known what had been granted by the late administration, and what by the present. Where was the promise violated? With regard to Russia, the only assistance demanded by her was to negociate a loan with this country, which the late administration refused, but which the right hon. gent. said, he should have acceded to. That this refusal was most wise, appeared to him to be indisputable. Let the country recollect the Austrian loan, and the sums which had been paid for giving facility to its negociation. As to any military assistance to Russia and Prussia, independent of Sweden, the right hon. gent. had reduced his accusation to a mere expectation entertained by those powers. On the whole, he thought it incumbent on the house to entertain the subject by itself on some specific day, that these accusations might be brought to a point, and that it might be known how far the late ministry were accessary to the recent disasters on the continent, and he hoped that the gentlemen opposite would afford the means of elucidating the subject by laying on the table the correspondence in their possession. The right hon. gent. stated, that one of our ministers abroad expressed his opinion that expectations of assistance had been excited. Did he mean lord Hutchinson? With regard to the assertions of those who were lately our allies, and who were now, he feared, our enemies, was it not likely that they would avail themselves of exaggerated statements against Eng-
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land, to endeavour to clear themselves from the odium of the transactions into which both, or at least one of those powers had recently been forced?
Mr. Secretary Canningexplained what he had said the other evening on the subject of the Russian loan. A noble lord opposite (lord H. Petty) had declared his objection to such a measure in very strong terms, and all that he had stated was, that he was not so averse from it as the noble lord. Now, with respect to bringing the subjects which the hon. gent. had detailed in a distinct shape before parliament, for the purpose of calling for their judgment, he wished to know how they were to be brought forward. Were the gentlemen opposite to impute gross misconduct to his majesty's minister, by contrasting their proceedings with those of their predecessors, and were his majesty's ministers to be precluded from stating in defence of themselves their opinion of the proceedings of their predecessors, unless they originated a charge against them? He denied this. Besides, according to the hon. gent's. statement, these charges would amount to a solemn accusation of crime. All that had been said by him was, that the late government, though acting to the best of their judgment, had not acted for the benefit of the country. This had been extorted from his majesty's ministers in their own defence, and they were now called upon to make it the ground of a charge. If the exertions of the present ministers had been too late, they were bound to state that it was, because their predecessors had left them without the means of making earlier efforts.
Mr. Whitbreadcontended that the right hon. gent. had distinctly charged the late administation not with mere want of ability, but with a criminal violation of promise.
Mr. Windhamobserved, that when ministers made a charge, they ought to follow it up, because the documents were in their possession, and they could plead no excuse, except it was that the production of these documents would be attended with manifest injury to the interests of the country. Secrecy on this account might certainly be necessary; but he believed there was no such obstacle in the way in the present instance, nor, indeed, was any such alledged. The late ministers were ready to support their charge; if the present ones by way of answer to that, brought forward another charge, they ought to make it good, otherwise the house ought certainly to consider it as not made. He expected the noble lord would move for an

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account of the transports which the late government received at the time of their coming into office, and the numbers left at their going out of office.
Lord Castlereaghobserved, that the present discussion came with a very bad grace from an hon. gent. who had charged his majesty's ministers on a former occasion, with not having sooner sent to Sweden, or other parts of the continent, the force which was then embarking. Could ministers do less than state, that were their impressions ever so strong of the necessity of the measure, they had been precluded from an earlier recurrence to it, by the total neglect of their predecessors? No specific charge had been made, but it had been merely stated, that the late ministers were culpable in allowing expectations to grow up, and that one power (Sweden) had complained of the disappointment of those expectations. Adverting to the question of transports, he observed, that the interval between the wish to obtain transports, and the power of obtaining them, was much greater than what seemed generally to be imagined. Horse transports, in particular, could not be expected to be in the Downs in less than three weeks after the tenders had been accepted, and every one accustomed to these subjects, knew the tardiness with which those tenders were made. He thought the policy of the late government fundamentally wrong, that they had made up their minds to afford no assistance to the continental powers, and therefore, that they had managed badly to inspire expectations of assistance.
Lord H. Pettyobserved, that it now appeared that general promises had been first alledged; then a particular charge of a breach of engagement was made, and lastly the matter came round again to general promise. This was the dance that ministers led the house, all the while refusing the documents. The right hon. gent. had said that he had a right to retort on the late government. The best way, however, of answering charges was to refute them instead of retorting on others. But, granting his claim of retorting, he still contended that when the right hon. gent. alledged that the late ministers had adopted a particular line of policy, and had not acted up to it, he ought to be prepared with proof to make good his charge. When charges were brought against ministers, they had the means in their hands of refuting them if they could. When charges were made against them, they could only call upon the ministers to produce the
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documents on which they were founded. He himself was certainly of opinion that the Russian loan ought not to be negociated after the experience of the Austrian loan, though certainly there might be circumstances in which the Austrian loan ought not to be considered as a bar to any such loan in future. He hoped no more would be heard of the charge against the late ministers, or if it should again be insisted on he hoped the documents would be produced.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was clear that the fact was admitted, that ail expectation had been raised, at least in Sweden, of military aid from this country in cavalry, on certain contingencies. Whether or not those contingencies had occurred was a matter of opinion, and was not a subject on which a criminal charge could be preferred. Suppose the contingency had been that assistance would be afforded in case the allies were placed in such a situation as to be enabled to make a forward movement against the enemy. Was not this situation a matter of opinion? and might not one power assert, while another denied its existence? Whatever difference of opinion therefore there might be as to the policy of the late government, there certainly was no ground for a distinct criminal charge.
Lord Folkestoneobserved, that the question was, whether a crime had been alledged, and whether the documents to prove it were produced? Ministers stated the crime, and refused to produce the documents. This was the ground of complaint. They alledged a clear fact that expectations had been raised. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) was of opinion, that the contingency had happened. In such a case it was neither honest nor candid to refuse to bring the matter to the proof.—The title of the bill was then read and agreed to. After which,
Lord Castlereaghmoved for accounts of the number of transports of different descriptions in the service of government at the time the late ministers came into office, and at the time they went out.—Ordered.

IRISH ARMS BILL.
On the order of the day that the Irish Arms bill be now read a third time,
Lord Miltonsaid he could not agree without any inquiry into the state of Ireland, to give his assent to the passing of such an arbitrary act as this. At the time of the union, the Irish were promised a full and fair participation of the rights of Englishmen; at that moment, after a lapse of 7

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years, they were called upon to pass an act than which nothing could be more arbitrary and oppressive, and which would not be borne with in England, but in cases of the most imperious necessity, and after the fullest inquiry. This could not fail to induce jealousies and suspicions among the Irish, and would, he feared, be productive of the most injurious consequences. It had been attempted to justify this act on the principle which had prevailed, in that of disarming the Highlanders, but there was a very great difference between them. The act for disarming the Highlanders was passed at a period, when no one could for a moment doubt the absolute necessity for it. It was immediately after a rebellion, in which those men had taken up arms in the cause of a prince, who was a declared enemy to the protestant religion, and whose ancestor had been expelled from this country, for his attempt to overturn the constitution. The hon. gent. who brought forward this bill called on the house to pass it into a law, without any document to prove the necessity of it, and without any means of conciliation having been adopted towards Ireland. He hoped, in a future session, to see some measure adopted in favour of the Irish; to see a modification of tithes seriously set about, and maturely and fully considered; and, above all, to see the catholic subjects of Ireland restored to their rights; "but," said the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, "the church is in danger." In what way this could be made out he was at a loss to see. Would catholic emancipation give the catholic clergy any greater force of arguments, as to the superiority of their religion? For his part, he saw no danger, unless it was caused by the protestants deserting the church. He protested against those restraining laws; they had for a great length of time been tried against Wales, and had always been found fruitless and nugatory. He had hoped the attempt to disarm New England, as we had done, would not so soon have been forgotten, but would have operated to restrain ministers from thus attempting to disarm Ireland. He had hoped, instead of this, that the Irish would be restored to their rights, and henceforward be allowed the rights of Englishmen. He objected warmly to the feelings of the Irish people being, at this moment, insulted, by the appointment of magistrates, who had shewn themselves to be party-men, and who were henceforward to be invested with the most arbitrary and oppressive powers. For these reasons, he
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should certainly vote against the bill being read a third time.
Mr. Lushingtonexpressed his disapprobation of the measure, although he was sorry to learn, from what information he had received, that a necessity for it existed, and he particularly relied in this respect on the eloquent speech of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Grattan), who was so well acquainted with Ireland, and concerned for its interests. But he wished the bill had received sundry amendments, particularly for preventing magistrates, from breaking into dwelling-houses Of suspected persons by night; he also wished the duration of the bill to have been limited to one year. Upon the whole, it was a bill to which he felt compelled to give an unwilling assent.
Mr. P. Moorethought, that in a free country like England, such an act as this should never be passed but from extreme necessity. It had been said, that this act was justified by necessity; but there was no evidence in proof of it, except the opinion of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Grattan), which, however respectable that gentleman might be, he could not suffer to sway him, nor was he able to bring his conscience to adopt so arbitrary a measure on such authority. Such a corroding act as this must prove highly injurious in its consequences, by irritating and lacerating the feelings of the Irish people; and if there was a necessity for it, the fact was, it did not go far enough. For these reasons, he would move as an amendment, "that it be read a third time that day 3 months."
Mr. Whitbreadapologized to the house for his again stating to them what were his opinions upon this measure. The importance of the subject, however, made it his duty to state in this, as well as in former stages, what was the result of his inquiry and deliberation upon a question of such magnitude. In the first place then, deferring as he did to the opinion of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Grattan), whose sentiments he always held in the highest estimation, he must confess that there was very high authority indeed in favour of the proposition, that some such measure ought to be adopted. But even then there was something which operated in his favour. That right hon. gent. whose opinion, it was admitted on all sides, carried such great weight and influence with it, did not say that he agreed to the bill with all its deformities; he objected to many parts of it; he only said, that rather than lose the measure

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altogether, he would agree to take it with these objectionable parts. However, when he looked at the consequences that were likely to result from the adoption of such a measure, he felt that it was his duty as a member of parliament in such a case, and without any specific evidence before him in support of the measure, to think for himself, and oppose the measure. This bill differed materially from the other; the other was to operate in a particular part only, and that under peculiar circumstances; but this was to act universally throughout the whole country, and under any circumstances. What was that in elect but stating that, generally speaking, you cannot trust the whole of the population of Ireland, and proclaiming to the enemy, that in that place there is to be found a large portion of his majesty's subjects who are ready to accept of their arms if they will send them there? But above all, he objected to the Measure because it was seen that even that most objectionable, most useless clause was not allowed to be altered, that which empowered constables or men of any description, with a warrant founded on suspicion only, to break into men's houses, and alarm and terrify their families in the dead hour of the night. If the search was only to be made in the presence of a justice, there might have been Some responsibility; but, when even that amendment was refused, when it was known, that whatever disaffection did exist, the arms were used by night, and that it was in the day time that they were mostly secreted, he could not he so prodigal of this insulting power, he could not bring himself to wanton thus unnecessarily with the feelings of the people. If he was not of opinion that the people of Ireland were better secured without than with this bill, he most certainly should vote in favour of it; but thinking as he did that the measure was both unjust and unnecessary, he was impelled by a sense of duty to support the amendment.
Sir Arthur Piggottsaid he would beg leave, as shortly as possible, to give his reasons for dissenting from this bill. It was an act of the most arbitrary end oppressive nature, brought forward without any inquiry into the state of Ireland, without any evidence laid before the house as to the necessity of it; and it was altogether so unconstitutional an act, that nothing but extreme and most imperious necessity could possibly justify it. It did not depend on the responsibility of the lord lieutenant and council, nor on the authority of the established courts of
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law; but two magistrates could execute al the arbitrary provisions of this terrible bill He did not conceive himself authorised to give his assent to such a bill as this, on the authority of any hon. gentleman, however respectable he might be, both for character and talents; and notwithstanding all that had been said on the subject, he could not see any necessity whatever for it. Lord Hardwicke had resided upwards of 4 years in Ireland, a most able, dignified, and popular representative of his sovereign, during which time he had never found it necessary to resort to those extraordinary provisions. If so, what was there in the present state of Ireland to give occasion to this bill? Since my lord Hardwicke, the duke of Bedford had been some time lord lieutenant; and there were some partial disturbances in different parts of the country. Applications had been made to his grace to put in force the provisions of this act; but he refused. He proceeded against the culprits in a legal way; and the law was found sufficient to subdue the insurrection, and to punish the offenders. Here the house had the evidence of two lords lieutenants, that in the course of 6 or 7 years, there was no necessity for such provisions. It must be a necessity made apparent to parliament, and not allowed to go on in respect to any assertion of any individual, to put the whole people of Ireland out of the law, and authorize these nocturnal domiciliary visits. He was averse to the bill in toto. He never could reconcile himself to a bill which was to place the people, in every part of Ireland, in the power of any two rash, prejudiced, or intemperate magistrates, to break open their houses at any hour of the night, and, under the pretence of searching for arms, to alarm and insult their families, and without the slightest evidence of any necessity: and at least, if the house should agree to pass the bill, it ought to name the shortest possible duration, not longer, at farthest, than the commencement of the next session; when the subject might again be considered, and the law suffered to expire, unless the executive government of the country should think it necessary to he revived. It was said by the supporters of this bill, that it was to be continued for 3 years, in the first instance, because the revival of the subject in parliament, year after year, would excite irritation. So, that to avoid this suppositions consequence, the whole people of Ireland were to be 3 years exposed to the arbitrary oppression of magistrates and their under-

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lings, and to be deprived of their arms for the defence of their habitations. There were times heretofore, when a British parliament would not tolerate such language; and he thought it required some boldness for any minister to state such a proposition. Yet, how could the bill be continued 3 years, unless it was the united sense of parliament to resist any motion for its repeal, which it was competent for any member to propose in the next session? Would any member suppose it possible, that the affairs of Ireland must not come under the consideration of parliament every year? If bills like this were the boons to be granted to Ireland by this country, these were what they could find elsewhere; and if parliament did not see the wisdom of governing that country by lenient and conciliatory measures, and fulfilling to the hopes of the people the effects they were taught to expect from a legislative union with this country; namely, the knitting together their rights and interests with those of their British fellow-subjects; if parliament did not feel the necessity of strengthening, at this awful crisis, the armies of the empire, by the valour of a noble, brave, intrepid, and loyal people, instead of keeping up a system of coercive end irritative measures; he must only lament their blindness. This observation reminded him of a declaration once made by one of the ablest statesmen that ever presided over the destinies of this country, the great earl of Chatham; who said it was his maxim to adopt merit wherever he found it, free from all partiality or prejudice to countries. He had sought and found a brave people in the North, who had long been estranged from all attachment to British government by acts of impolicy and oppression, which transferred their affections to a foreign foe, who had flattered them with hopes of redress. He removed their oppressions. He noticed their loyalty to this country. They flocked to the British standard, and conquered for England in every quarter of the world. It was a similar policy that would give the best effects to the Union, by uniting with this country the affections of the Irish people: but a contrary conduct would tend ultimately, perhaps, to lop off the right arm from the British empire, at a moment when we wanted twice as many arms as we had to effect our security in this awful crisis. He concluded by beseeching the house, and his majesty's government, to depart from this fatal system which risked less than the ultimate lets of Ireland.
Mr. Dillonstated, that it fell within his own knowledge, that during the administration of the duke of Bedford, some hot headed magistrates had proclaimed a district contrary to law. They afterwards applied to the lord lieutenant to sanction their proceeding; he refused to do so, and the usual operation of the law was found to be sufficient for the preservation of public tranquillity. To such men it was not his inclination to confide such powers as were not found necessary in the administration of lord Hardwicke, and such as the duke of Bedford refused to sanction. It was the wish of lord Kilwarden, even in his dying moments, that the law should not be violated on his account. Ministers were well aware that by the Bill of Rights every British subject had a right to bear arms, and if unnecessary infractions of the best articles of the constitution were made as a matter of course almost, ministers might expect that some portion of the people of that country would declare their sentiments in the most open manner against such proceedings; they might expect, not that a revolution founded on Agrarian principles would be attempted, but that the higher class of the people would be roused, and that they would petition against the union. On the intended motion of Mr. Sheridan he should deliver his sentiments more fully; in the mean while however, he thought it his duty to oppose the bill now before the house.
Mr. Craigdefended Ireland from the unjust imputations against its loyalty and allegiance. He was convinced that the true policy in governing Ireland was to extend to its people the full participation of constitutional rights. He declared his conviction of the injustice and impolicy of the present bill, and strongly supported the amendment.
Mr. Ponsonbywas a decided enemy to the bill. He hoped some amendment would have been admitted to render it less unpalatable, but he was severely disappointed. He thanked his right hon. and learned friend (sir A. Piggott) for his eloquent speech against the bill, in every word of which he agreed; and could only express his astonishment to find his majesty's ministers supporting such a measure upon hear say, and without a tittle of evidence, while at this moment the assizes of the different counties in Ireland were proceeding, and when the judges were every where unanimous in stating the tranquil state of that country, especially Wexford and Tipperary, the two most suspected counties, and where there

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was not a single indictment for insurrection, or even for seditious words; and when the judge emphatically thanked the grand juries for the tranquil state in which he found that part of the country. He never could give his support to so abominable, so unconstitutional, and so tyrannical a bill.—A general cry of question! question!
Mr. Sheridanexpressed his astonishment at hearing so very general a call of question! question! as if gentlemen were in a hurry to pass a bill so alarming to the liberties of Ireland. He should not enter upon the affairs of that country at present, as he should have a more favourable opportunity, on the motion he should have the honour of proposing to the house on Monday. He did not expect, however, that on a measure like this for driving from the pale of the constitution the whole people of Ireland, his majesty's ministers would sit mute, without condescending to notice any of the arguments so eloquently and forcibly put against this bill. If ever he saw the case of Ireland treated with outrage and insult, it was upon the present occasion, when the king's ministers were forcing upon that country, a law subversive of all civil liberty, and exposing the habitation of every man in Ireland to the nocturnal intrusion of any two magistrates, or their underlings, on pretence of searching for arms, without any controul from the executive government. The eloquent speech of his right hon and learned friend (sir A. Piggott) was unanswerable. He gloried in the whole tenour of his arguments, and he was proud to see on that side of the house an attorney-general and solicitor-general of the last administration, stand forth as advocates for the cause of Ireland, who preferred government by Law to a government by arbitrary power and military execution, and who refused to vote away the liberties of a brave and honourable people, without any other semblance of necessity than the mere ipse dixit of the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, and his legal friends the attorney and solicitor-generals. And what was the testimony of those right hon. gentlemen? Why, that none of them knew any thing about Ireland, but that they understood from good authority that there was a disposition to insurrection there. Who told them so? Did they learn it by any official document from the duke of Richmond? or was it only from the whispers of those hon. gentlemen from that side the water, who wished to feed their credulity? For gentlemen in their stations, to say they
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were unacquainted with the affairs of Ireland, might be well enough before the union; but after that event, such a declaration was as ridiculous as to say they knew nothing about Middlesex or Yorkshire. The former act, of which this was meant to be the companion, was abominable enough, but this was a thousand times worse. By a clause in this bill, nothing in the shape of a blacksmith must exist in Ireland but at the discretion of the magistrates, unless he would swear and give security that he would never make any thing in the shape of a pike. Thus every gentleman in Ireland was liable to be plundered out of his arms; and every blacksmith in that devoted country prevented from following his trade, or earning his livelihood, at the discretion of any two petty justices of the peace. Would any man, in his cool senses, suppose that such a measure was not calculated to excite universal discontent in Ireland; to convert the friends of the government, and the most loyal and peaceable people of the country into enemies, and to produce all those very mischiefs which it was avowedly directed to prevent? He should, however, beg leave to add to the bill a clause, by way of rider. It would be, to make it high treason to communicate to Napoleon emperor of the French, either of those bills; for he was convinced that such a communication would be the most direct, effectual, and traitorous communication to the enemy for the invasion of Ireland. The hon. and right hon. and learned gentlemen opposite to him took no notice of the speeches of his hon. friends; but if they were ignorant of the affairs of that country, knowledge should be forced upon them, or they ought to suffer for their ignorance. Notwithstanding the declaration of a right hon. friend of his (Mr. Grattan), and whose authority had been so generally quoted by the supporters of this and the former bill, he would not lend his conscience to any man against his conviction. The Irish security was gone upon the expedition to the Baltic; regiment after regiment was drawn from Ireland for foreign service; and now the country was to be garrisoned by two arbitrary acts of parliament. But surely if ministers were serious in believing the danger, this was the way to encourage and promote it.—The house then divided, for the amendment 28, against it 80, majority 52.
Lord H. Pettythen rose to move an amendment in the bill, by shortening the duration of it. He thought the house ought to be a jealous of such a bill as of the act,

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and that it ought only to be past for one year. We ought to pay the same acknowledgement to the liberty of the subject in Ireland as in this country. We ought to anticipate that amelioration in the state of Ireland which might render the bill no longer necessary; and perhaps it ought also to be dreaded, that the Irish government would abuse the power vested in it, in such a manner as to make it doubtful whether more evil or good resulted from suffering such a bill to be continued. Thinking, therefore, that such powers ought to be only granted for one year, he concluded by moving as an amendment, that the words "one year" should be inserted instead of "three," as the duration of the bill.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought that it was necessary to say but little, when it was considered how fully both those bills had been already discussed. It would certainly be in the power of parliament to repeal this bill next year, if they thought it necessary; but he thought unnecessary discussion on this subject might be of an irritating nature, and could not possibly do any good.
Mr. Sheridanwas rejoiced, that he had at length heard a few words from one of the hon. gentlemen on the other side. When they had before refused to argue the subject, on the ground of their ignorance, he gave them some credit for either modesty or candour. His noble friend had, however, obliged the rt. hon. gent. to say something. These discussions on the state of Ireland might appear to the gentlemen on the other side of the house, as irritating questions; they however appeared to him questions that ought not to be blinked, but that it was necessary to discuss fairly. He would tell the right hon. gent., that Ireland ought to be the constant subject of his thoughts, and of discussion in that house. The present bill Was a bill for suspending the liberties and the constitution of Ireland; and to prevent irritating discussions, as they were called, it was proposed, in the first instance, that the bill should be continued for 3 years. He could not see any argument that could be adduced in favour of continuing the bill for that time, that would not apply as well to the making it eternal. The right hon. gent. had said, that the house could repeal it next year, if they thought proper. This was most undoubtedly true, and so they could have done if the act had been at once made perpetual; but there was very little reason expect that it would be repealed before
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the time fixed for its expiration. If the bill were only annual, then the right hon. gent. must make out some kind of a case next year, before he could again propose it; but it it passed for 3 years, he would consider himself privileged to continue all that time as ignorant as he now professed himself of the state of Ireland. It was time for the house to take the situation of Ireland seriously into their consideration, as every body knew that the destruction of Ireland, or its occupation by the enemy, would be the downfal of the empire. He concluded by declaring, that he should support the amendment.
Mr. W Elliotadmitted the necessity of this measure, but thought the period of duration quite another, question, and that parliament ought to show an anxiety to keep as much as possible within the limits of that necessity. He would, therefore, support the amendment, and would strongly advise gentlemen on the other side to accede to it. The right hon. gent. earnestly recommended the adoption of conciliatory measures with regard to Ireland. He deprecated the language which he had heard from a high authority in that house, and in another assembly also, with respect to the Catholics; for he considered such language extremely rash and imprudent, to say the least of it; as it would go to close the expectations, to put an end to the hopes of the Catholic body. When gentlemen talked of settling the question, what did they mean? Did they mean to say to a population growing in numbers, wealth, and consequence—"we will never attend to your wishes, we will never comply with your desires?" But some gentlemen undertook to say, that the Catholic Question was of no consequence to this population. The contrary, however, was as true as nature was true to herself. What! that the landed and commercial interests, which had such extensive and just influence among the Catholic body, that the gentlemen of the bar, did not aspire to those privileges and distinctions, from which they were at present excluded! The idea Was quite preposterous. He could assure the house that gentlemen were mistaken who supposed that all those feelings did not prevail among the Catholics, which strongly bind men to the state. For the desire of participating, in those privileges which the state granted, was a strong bond of connection. He, of course, disliked, and would wish to discountenance the doctrine, that the prospect should be removed, which served to

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keep alive that desire. At least to allow the Catholics to hope, to let them cherish expectation, was one of the best means of preserving the tranquillity of Ireland. With a view effectually to restore and to maintain that tranquillity, the right hon. gent. mentioned the different measures which the late ministry had in contemplation; first, the grant of privileges to the Catholics; second, the modification of tythes; third, a strict attention to the appropriation of the funds destined for education; and fourth, the enforcement of the residence of the established clergy. These were among the benefits which the late administration meant to confer upon Ireland, and which he heartily wished to see adopted.
Mr. Wilberforcefelt much satisfaction in hearing the objects which the right hon. gent. had just stated, and particularly with regard to tythes, in which it a change could be effected without injury to the interests of the established clergy, it was on all hands admitted to be extremely desirable. The hon. member expressed his wish that the gentlemen of Ireland would themselves devote their attention to a consideration of the means by which the state of the Irish people might be amended. For he could not help thinking that among that people, he meant the peasantry particularly, there was a difference not only in the civil condition, if he might so express himself, but in the political character, from that which appeared among the same classes in this country, and the gentlemen of Ireland might be most competent to judge of the fact, and to prepare the means of improving their countrymen.
Mr. Windhamwas glad to hear his right hon. friend state the objects which the late administration had in view, for the benefit of Ireland; and to those objects he wished particularly to point the attention of the house. So far from considering this bill and the Insurrection bill as twins, he thought them materially different. With respect to the consequence to be apprehended from the frequent discussion of measures of this nature, and which the right hon. gent. on the opposite side deprecated, he for himself thought, that as much irritation might be produced by silence as by discussion—nay, more; and so he apprehended from the silence of ministers upon this occasion. The feelings of the people of Ireland must be grated to find it resolved to continue the duration of such a bill as this beyond a reasonable time, without any statement, and perhaps without the existence of necessity. For,
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whatever the necessity might be now, that necessity might be at an end within a 12 month. At all events, the ease was doubtful, and the Irish people should have the benefit of that doubt. Enacting the bill for one year did not preclude its revival, should it appear necessary, any more than the revival of the Mutiny bill, which, from the same considerations which actuated his mind upon this occasion, parliament had taken care to pass annually, although its necessity was undisputed and its principle unquestionable.—The house then divided upon lord H Petty's amendment, and the numbers were Ayes 34; Noes 79.

List of the Minority.

Barham, J. F.

Milton, lord

Bouveric, E.

Petty, lord H.

Bernard. T.

Pigott, sir A.

Brand, T.

Parry, L. P. J.

Calcraft, J.

Ponsonby, J.

Craig, J.

Romilly, Sir S.

Cavendish, W.

Russell, lord W.

Cuthbert, J. R.

Sheridan, R. B.

Dillon, H. A.

Somerville, sir M.

Dundas, W.

Smith, W.

Elliot, W.

Sharpe, R.

Hibbert, G.

Talbot, R.

Jervoise, J. C.

Windham, W.

Lamb, W.

Ward. J. W.

Lubbock, sir J.

Whitbread, S.

Millar, sir T.

Tellers.

Moore, P.

Creevey, T.

Martin, H.

Dawson, R.

Maxwell, W.