Sitting of 20 April 1807

MINUTES.
Mr. Whitbreadpresented a petition from W. C. Lindsey, esq. of the county of Tyrone, in Ireland, of whom he had not the least knowledge; but was a petition complaining of a grievance which was alleged to exist, and praying for relief: he therefore thought it his duty to present it to the house. The petition being read at the table, appeared to state a number of loyal actions performed by the petitioner in Ireland, which brought on the total ruin of his
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family, and involved himself in the greatet difficulty. It therefore prayed the interposition of that honourable house in his behalf. Mr. Stewart bore testimony to the loyal exertions of this gentleman in Ireland during the late troublesome times. Mr. Wickham expressed himself confident that when the subject should be investigated, the earl of Hardtwicke would be found free from blame. The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.

MUTINY AT VELLORE.
Mr. Howarthsaid, he thought it his duty to call the attention of the house to the late dreadful mutiny at Vellore; a mutiny, he had every reason to think, had been occasioned by an ill-timed military measure, tending to violate some of the customs of the natives. He wished to put a question to a right hon. gent. opposite, as president of the board of controul, and, according to the answer he should receive, he should, perhaps, think it his duty to found a motion upon this subject, he wished to know whether, in consequence of the accounts received from Madras, any steps had been taken, either to remove those persons who were so obnoxious to the natives, or to attempt to conciliate those who were so much irritated?
Mr. R. S. Dundasas president of the board of controul, answered, that he could assure the hon. gent., that the subject to which he alluded had been matter of serious consideration with the board of controul. Previous to the appointment of the present board, the court of directors did make a resolution as to the changes that were to take place in the Madras establishment. With regard to the causes of that unfortunate mutiny, he could only say, that during the very few days since the present board had been appointed, it was impossible that they could have made up their minds, or that they could ascertain that any dissatisfaction did actually still exist. The board having been so employed, no delay would take plate in adopting whatever steps might be judged necessary.
Mr. Corrysaid, that, as the question was one which deserved the most serious consideration, he should think it would be advisable to delay adopting any measures, till the arrival of an officer, whom he knew to be upon his passage from India to this country. The officer he alluded to was sir John Craddock, who, from his situation at Madras, had had an opportunity of investigating the whole affair; and who, therefore, would be able to state the particulars with

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more accuracy than could be done in any written dispatches.

IRISH CHURCHES AND GLEBE HOUSES.
Mr. Wickhamin rising to make a motion on this subject, observed, that the papers on the table would shew the necessity of parliamentary interference, by larger and more liberal grants for the relief of the protestant church in Ireland. In 1803, he had laid on the table of the house a paper for the purpose of rousing their attention to this subject. Two bills were subsequently passed; one for the loan, without interest, of a large sum from the Board of First Fruits; the other for the advance of £50,000 by the lord lieutenant. On these bills, however, no steps had been taken. Entering into a comparative statement of the population of the two countries, he asserted, that the population of Ireland was half that of South Britain; but that the number of parishes in South Britain exceeded 10,000; while in Ireland the number of parishes was originally only 2436, and, by subsequent consolidations, was in the year 1791 reduced to 1120. This reduction was highly injurious to the protestant interest; and it appeared that, in the late troubles in Ireland, rebellion raged most violently, and most succesfully, in those districts in which the reduction had been the greatest. Having dwelt on the great importance of this subject, he concluded by moving, "That a select committee be appointed to take into consideration the several acts of parliament relating to the building, rebuilding, and keeping in repair, churches and glebe houses in Ireland, and to the purchase of glebe houses and lands there, and requiring certain returns to be made concerning the sufficiency state of, and condition, of such churches, for the regular performance of divine service therein; together with the several reports and papers relating thereto, and to the unions of parishes, that were laid before this house in the years 1803 and 1806 respectively; and that they do consider the said acts and papers, and examine how far the said acts, or any of them, have been found inadequate, and in what respect, for the purposes thereby intended; and do report the same together with their observations and opinion thereupon, to the house."
Dr. Duigenansaid he would not oppose the motion of the right hon. gent. but he contended that the poverty of the people was so great in many places, that if it were not for the union of the parishes, the clergy would have devoured the people. Besides
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this, there was an old act, passed in the reign of Queen Elizabeth, he believed, which authorised the lord lieutenant and privy council to divide or consolidate parishes according to the necessity of the case, and it so happened that where the patronage of the crown was most extensive, there the union of the parishes was more frequently apt to take place; for instance, if a gentleman had good interest and connexions of any weight, a single parish might be in so low a state, that it would not be worth his acceptance. He then would perhaps give the real statement of the case to his friend or patron, and afterwards a recommendation would come from the crown, that two adjoining parishes should be consolidated into one, which the bishop in such case mostly agreed to. He did not estimate the population of Ireland at much more than two millions, and the Protestant clergy would be very much oppressed and unable to maintain the respectability of their situation, if the union of parishes were not in many instances allowed.
Sir John Newportsaid, that many erroneous calculations had gone forth as to the actual number of inhabitants in Ireland. The number as laid down by Mr. Bushe, in the Irish Philosophical Transactions, amounted to upwards of four millions. Although the lords lieutenant of Ireland had the power of disuniting parishes, he had not found any instance in which they had done so. The state of the protestant church of Ireland did require the attention of the house, and he was sure they could not bestow their labours better than in discussing such an inquiry.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he should certainly forward the object of the motion. He believed the money directed to be applied for the benefit of the church, by the acts in 1803, had never been properly applied. Many of the unions had been directed the privy council, on account of some of the parishes not being adequate to the maintenance of a clergyman. The proposed inquiry, therefore, appeared to be one of the most useful acts the house could engage in. One object on this side of the water had been to secure the residence of the clergy, but such an object could not be aimed at in Ireland, till such time as they had parsonage houses to reside in.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeraldstated, that, to his knowledge, some of the livings in the South of Ireland amounted to £1000, to £1500, and some even to £3000 a-year; and also

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that, in some instances where a consolidation of livings and parishes had taken place, an attention to the religious duties of the people had been reversed; for no place of religious worship was provided, within the reach of the inhabitants; nor could such parishioners obtain baptism for their children, or the other rights of the church; and the consequence was, that the protestant inhabitants, in such places, had disappeared. He hoped, therefore, that a strict investigation would be set on foot, with a view of correcting such abuses.
Mr. Parnellthought, that the house ought to be put in possession of circumstances so material as those hinted at by the hon. gent. The population of Ireland, as computed by Mr. Bushe, amounted in the year 1788 to 4,080,000 inhabitants; the population of England and Wales, as the Census was taken in 1801, was 9,200,000; from this it appeared, that the calculations of the learned doctor were formed upon mistaken data—The motion was then put and carried; and a select committee appointed accordingly.

IRISH GRAND JURY PRESENTMENTS.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald rosepursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill to alter and amend the mode of levying money by Grand Juries, in Ireland. He could now state, from the return on the table, that the enormous sum of half a million was raised by the grand juries, for bridges and cross-roads, exclusive of turnpike-roads, and the main lines of communication between the different parts of Ireland. This sum might not appear great compared with the revenue of England; but it was prodigious when compared with that of Ireland. The hon. gent. went on to state, that a land-tax would be an unpopular measure in Ireland, and yet that country was in reality subject to a land-tax, raised in the most objectionable way. The poor in Ireland were, of necessity, obliged to have some land, and after, by extraordinary industry, raising subsistence out of it, they were obliged to pay their tythes, and then their Grand Jury Tax, which fell upon the poor occupants; while the rich proprietor, being absent, payed none of the tax as a proprietor. What he proposed, therefore, was, to follow up the analogy of the regulation adopted by his right hon. friend (sir J. Newport), who had exempted from the house tax those whose rents did not exceed 61. per annum. He intended also to propose some new regulations with respect to presentments and the
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proper accounting for the money. He would bring in the bill this session, that it might be printed and considered by the grand juries during the summer assizes. It would thus come forward next session, after all the consideration that could be requisite. He did not mean to alter the system of levying money by Grand Juries, but to subject it to the most beneficial regulations. He could not conclude without stating another motive which had induced him to propose this measure. At this moment, he observed, when all the views of the late ministry in favour of Ireland had been defeated, when the hopes of all those who from honest motives supported the Union were blasted —when the Union was rendered merely nominal and barren, though there appeared no intention immediately to repeal it—when the present government was founded on an interdict against Ireland, and existed under a pledge to withhold from the royal ear the grievances and complaints of the unhappy people of that country; at such a moment as this, he hoped the house would concur with him in the opinion, that at least all the practical benefits ought to be conferred on Ireland which could possibly be obtained. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill to alter and amend the mode of levying money by Grand Juries in Ireland.
The Chancellorof the Exchequer had no objection to the bill proposed by the hon. gent. The course of proceeding with respect to the bill, as suggested by the hon. gent., he thought altogether unexceptionable, he rose for the purpose of deprecating for himself, and those connected with him, the supposition of their being disposed to intercept the prayers of any part of his majesty's subjects in their way to the royal ear, or to the presence of parliament, however his sentiments might differ from those of the right hon. gent. on some subjects connected with a large portion of the people of Ireland. He thought it right also to offer himself to the house, lest, if he should have sat silent while the Union was represented as a barren and useless thing, as a thing, the continuance of which was problematical, and its dissolution a thing seriously contemplated, lest such things, suffered to pass uncontradicted, should give rise to false and dangerous opinions abroad. The interests of the two countries were now so intimately combined, that a dissolution of the Union could not be contemplated without involving most material injury to both, however some matters of detail might, in the opinion of some,

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be yet remote from a satisfactory arrangement.
Mr. Parnelldefended his hon. friend who might well be warranted in doubting of the policy of the Union, when the Imperial parliament was made the scene of disseminating religions dissentions, instead of diffusing, as had been promised by the authors of the union, political rights, by the extinction of religious divisions.
Mr. Wilberforcehad listened with great satisfaction to the statements of the hon. mover, because he had thrown some light upon the situation of the Irish poor. He wished that the gentlemen from Ireland would always endeavour to enlighten the house with regard to the internal state of that country. This would be much more important with respect to the poor of that country than the discussion of any great political privileges. Dr. Mc. Nevin, one of the persons who had been engaged in the rebellion, had stated in answer to a question put to him, when examined before a committee of the Irish house of commons, that the peasantry would not give the value of the ink in the pen with which the clerk was writing, for emancipation. The real happiness of the people depended more on the nature of their connection with their landholders and tytheholders, than upon those privileges. One of the best effects which he hoped for from the Union was the additional light which it would enable us to procure with respect to the situation of the people of Ireland. If Irish gentlemen, and members of parliament, would study and point out measures, calculated to promote the internal comfort and prosperity of Ireland, they would do far more real service to their country, than by recriminating upon those who could not hazard the strong measures they might wish. Whatever difference of opinion there might be as to higher questions of policy, all, he trusted, would concur in endeavouring to promote the reformation of the abuses in that country; and with this view, he wished it to be considered, whether it might not be possible for the voluntary exertions of the great landholders themselves to correct these abuses?
Mr. Maurice Fitzgeraldbegged leave to give an accurate and entire statement of the circumstance to which the hon. gent. had just adverted. This he could do with the most perfect correctness, as he had been a member of the Irish Committee. The question asked was, "what value the great body of the Catholics attached to what was
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called emancipation?" The answer was, as the hon. gent. had stated, that they did not understand it, and that they would not give the value of the ink in the pen with which the clerk was writing for it. This was, perhaps, true; but then this question was followed by another, viz. "what he thought would have been the effects of granting this emancipation?" The reply was, that there was nothing the rebel leaders dreaded so much; as it would have taken the peasantry out of their hands entirely, and completely destroyed their hopes of establishing a republic in Ireland. This was the real state of the case. The hon. gent. then proceeded to state, that in Voting for the Union, he had combatted his earliest prejudices and feelings, and supported it with a view to the security of all establishments, and the restoration of a firm and lasting tranquillity to Ireland. He had done so under direct pledges on this subject sanctioned by the greatest names, and he never would have concurred in it on any other terms. But now, when he saw the evils aggravated, and none of the expected good effects produced, he, speaking for himself only, declared, that the Union was barren and nominal, and that no great benefit could result from continuing it.—The motion was then put and carried.

SCOTCH JUDICATURE BILL.
Lord Auckland Lord Auckland suggested to the house, whether it was really fair in the noble lords opposite,
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to engraft upon a bill, which had undergone the most mature consideration, both in the house and in the country, a new bill, extremely varying, and altogether different in its principle? If the noble lords disapproved of the measure, would it not be more consistent with their duties to reject it at once, and then to come before the legislature with their own proposition, having given that proper parliamentary notice which the usage of the house had heretofore sanctioned, and which was peculiarly incumbent on the proposal of such an important measure, affecting as it did so great and respectable a part of the empire. But, if it was the intention of the house to go into a committee, he was anxious to know from the noble and learned lord (Eldon) in what way the necessary questions should be put to the Scotch Judges? and whether they were to be examined upon oath or not?
The Lord Chancellorthought the noble baron fully competent to decide, both on the manner and the matter of examining the Scotch Judges. With respect to the inconsistency and want of fairness attributed to those who supported the proposed amendments, he should only for himself say, that he never pledged himself to any further support, than a bare admission, that some alteration was necessary in the manner of administering civil justice in Scotland. Whether the present bill was rejected or not, he was not prepared to say what line of conduct he would pursue; whether, in the first case, he would propose any new measure; but he would certainly, if the house went into a committee, follow up his own opinion, by proposing and supporting such amendments, as to him appeared correct and advantageous.
Lord Grenvillewould not desert his duty and opinions, although other noble lords were careless in the performance of the one, and the recollection of the other. Whatever might be the fate of the bill which he had the honour to propose, he would continue to support its principle and provisions; and he trusted, for the credit of the house, that it would not suffer a measure to drop, to which, scarce a month ago, it gave the most unanimous support.
Lord Howkesburydenied that the proposal for dividing the court of session into two chambers, instead of three, as originally proposed, was any violation of the principle of the bill, and therefore was a just and correct object for amendment.
Lord Kinnairdcontended that the amend-

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ment, as proposed by the noble baron, was complete alteration of the principle of the bill, which, after such uncommon industry, his noble friend had submitted to the consideration of their lordships.
Lord Lauderdaletook a survey of the different opinions expressed respecting the merits of the bill, and contended that not only a majority, but that of the best informed men in Scotland, had given it their approbation.
The Lord Chancellorin explanation, said, that he would propose a motion which might bring the matter to issue. It was now his intention to move; that the committee be deferred till Thursday next, that their lordships might have time to make up their minds upon the subject, and that then he might take the sense of the house upon it, and afterwards, if necessary, move, that the committee be postponed for three weeks, for the purpose of allowing time to prepare another bill.
The Duke of Atholsuggested the propriety of discharging the order for the attendance of the Scotch judges.
Lord Melvilletook up the suggestion and gave notice that on Thursday next he should move, that the order for the attendance of the Scotch judges be discharged.
Lord Lauderdalewas exceedingly surprised at this motion; and asked, if it was thought necessary to move for the attendance of the Scotch judges, upon a bill, the whole of which had been submitted for a full year to all those persons in Scotland who were most competent to form an opinion of its merits, how much more so must it not be necessary to have the opinion of the Scotch judges upon a bill, of the nature of which nothing at all had as yet transpired?—The proposition of the lord chancellor was then agreed to: the house resolved itself into a committee, pro forma, and it was next ordered that the committee do sit again on Thursday.