Sitting of 28 March 1806

Minutes.
The Sheriffs of London presented a petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council, against the Coal Admeasurement bill, as touching on their right of Metage.—Mr. Briggs, from the Commissioners of Naval Revision, presented an Account of the intended application of 20,000 l. granted this year, under the head of that commission.—A person from the Tax Office, presented an Account of the Net Assessments of the Duty on Property, for the year ending the 5th of April 1804; and several other Accounts on the same subject, which were referred to the Committee of Ways and Means.—Mr. Vansittart moved that there be laid before the House an Account of the quantity of British Plantation Sugar imported and exported for three years, ending the 5th of January, 1806; an Account of the produce of the War Duties on Goods and Merchandize, during the same period; an Account of the Amount of Duties on Tobacco for six years ending January the 5th, 1806; an Account of the quantity of Foreign Iron imported for the last six years, and the quantity of British unmanufactured Iron exported in the same period; an Account of the net produce of the Duties on
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Wine for the last three years; an Account of the quantity of Tea above 2s. 6d. a pound sold at the East-India Company's sale within the last six years, distinguishing each year. Also an Account of the net produce of the Duties on Auctions for the last three years. The several accounts were ordered, and the Inspector General of Exports and Imports presented them at the bar, when they were referred to the Committee of Ways and Means.—The Irish Treasury-bills bill and the British Fishery bill were read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.—Lord Henry Petty presented at the bar a message from his majesty, which was brought up, and read from the chair as follows:—"G. R. His majesty being desirous of conferring a signal mark of his favour and approbation on vice-admiral sir John Duckworth, in consideration of the service rendered by him, and the skill and gallantry displayed by him in an engagement with an enemy's fleet on the 5th of February last, where in the whole of the enemy's force was taken or destroyed, recommends to his faithful commons to take measures for securing to the said sir John Duckworth an annuity of 1000 l. for the term of his natural life." On the motion of lord H. Petty, it was ordered that his majesty's, most gracious message be taken into consideration on Monday.—Lord H. Petty gave notice that, immediately after the holidays, he should submit propositions to the house for making a national provision for the family of the late lord Nelson.

Budget.
On the motion of lord H Petty, the house went into a Committee of Ways and Means, to which the several public accounts presented this day were referred.
Lord Henry Petty rosehe said, to state to the house the Supplies which it would be proper to vote for the current year, and the ways and means to meet those supplies. The duty imposed on him he felt to be extremely arduous, and one which he was convinced he should be wholly unfit to execute, unless he had the indulgence of the house, In submitting the statement he had to lay before the house, he proposed to go into no length of observation of speculation, not only from an unwillingness to detain the house, but because there could be very little comparative importance attached to his conclusions, compared with the facts which he should open to the committee. But the same motive that made him sparing of observations of his own, induced him to wish as far as the

565
house would extend its indulgence, to be as ample with respect to the facts as possible: and, on this Occasion, departing from the common course, he should, before he entered into the question of the supplies necessary for the current service of the year, endeavour to satisfy the house as to the state of the country in point of finance, past and present, particularly the state of finance in which the country had been found this year; requesting that gentlemen would carry their knowledge upon that subject in their minds throughout the whole of his statement, as they would find it necessary to their perfectly understanding what it would be proper to adopt for the service of the current year. The principal, and he might say the only great feature in the state of the finance of the country, was the amount of its burthen or annual debt, funded and unfunded; and the next consideration was the means the country was in possession of to meet that debt, with a view to discharging the interest, and also that which he trusted the house would never lose sight of, namely, its ultimate and final extinction. He should first state the amount of the debt on the 1st of February 1805, then the augmentation of that debt in 1806.—The amount of the funded debt on the 1st of Feb. 1805, was 493,127,000 l. the annual charge upon which was 18,000,000 l. The amount of debt redeemed up to that day was 111,797,000 l. the annual charge upon which was 6,834,000 l. making together of debt, redeemed and unredeemed, 603.924,000 l. and an annual charge of 24,904,000 l. In the course of the year 1805, there was made an addition of 34,400,000 l. creating an annual charge of 1,392,000 1. besides 2,420,000 l. for the discharge of the loyalty loan, at an annual charge of 53,000 l. making a total for that year of debt 36,827,000 l. and of annual charge 1,445,000 l. Against this was to be put a diminution of 531,000 l. of debt, and 16,000 l. of annual charge by the redemption of the land-tax, and by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt a diminution of debt of 12,148,000 l.; making a total diminution of debt to the amount of 12,679,000 l. and a diminution of annual charge to the amount of 386,000l. This presented, at the commencement of the present year, an amount of funded debt of 517,280,000 l. The amount of debt redeemed was 123,476,000 l.—With respect .to the Unfunded Debt, he would follow the same course, comparing the
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state of it in 1805 and 1806. On the 5th Jan. 1805, there were outstanding exchequer bills to the amount of 25,253,500l, of which were provided for 12,388,400 l., leaving unprovided for 12,865,100 l.; navy debt, 5,100,000 l.; treasury bills 692,599 l.; barracks 1,567,000. Ordnance expences and arrears of civil list, making a total of 20,305,686 l. On the 5th Jan. 1806, the outstanding exchequer bills were 27,180,400 l. Of which, in anticipation of aids 12,180,400 l. leaving unprovided for 15,000,000l.; navy debt 9,570,000l.; treasury bills 530,751l.; with charges for barracks, army debt, ordnance charges, and civil-list arrears, making a total of 23,168,747 l. Thus there was an addition to the unfunded debt of 2,863,161 l.—He came now to the Ways and Means to meet this amount of debt, which he had thought it necessary to state thus fully and fairly, in order that the public might be completely aware of its situation, and that it might be prepared to make the. necessary exertions. The first of these was the Consolidated Fund, consisting of permanent taxes to the amount of 33,035,501 l. from which Was to be deducted for arrears of assessed taxes, 110,000l. leaving a balance of 32,935,501 l. The charges on the consolidated fund were the charges of the public debt, amounting to 23,102,733 l.; for paying off the five per cents.4,757,518 l. making with civil list arrears of 958,000 l. pensions 284,866 l. miscellaneous services 2,170,000 l. interest of the imperial loan 497,473 l. and other lesser items, a total of 30,188,000 l.; from which after deducting 430,000l. for the purchase of the legal quays, there remained 29,758,000 l. chargeable on the consolidated fund: so that on the consolidated fund there was an excess of charge of 3,177,500 l. beyond the preceding year. This state of the consolidated fund he wished gentlemen to bear in mind, as it was to the consolidated fund that we were to look for the payment of the interest of the public debt.—But he wished them also to attend particularly to the state of the Sinking Fund, as it was to that we were to look for the extinction of the debt. In the year ending Feb. 1, 1803, the interest redeemed by means of this fund was 5,835,000 l.; the unredeemed debt, Was at that period, 480,572,000 l. Thus the proportion of the sinking fund to the unredeemed debt was then 517,280,500 l. making the proportion

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of the redeemed to the unredeemed as 1 to 68. After this it was unnecessary for him to enter into any eulogium on the Sinking Fund, nor to detain the house with any panegyric on its former effects, or the hopes that might be entertained of its future operations. The advantage of that fund was very sensibly felt in the prices of stock, and in contracting for loans, which it enabled the public to obtain on better terms. Therefore independent of considerations of good faith which would induce the house to hold and cling to a system once adopted, it was pledged to support it, having had positive and tried experience of its utility.—His lordship then went into an enumeration of the state of finance in Great Britain in 1805, in order, as he observed, to make the house more particularly acquainted with the precise situation of the country. Total of the navy expenditure, 14,377,513 l. Total of the army, 17,183,696 l. Ordnance, 4,490,853 l. with several other charges, amounting in the whole to 43,690,418l.—Having stated the debt, the means, and the expenditure of the year, he hoped the .house had all the necessary previous information with regard to the true state of the country. I shall now, said the noble lord, recapitulate the supplies of the present year, either already voted or to be proposed.

SUPPLY.
The first head then, is the Navy, exclusive of Sea Service

£

15,281,000

Army

18,500,000

Here, though I am not able to state the amount of the sums that will be required on this head, owing to the arrangements not being yet completed; I am happy to think, that there is every reason to believe, that if approved by the house they will not exceed the sum I have stated, or the amount of the Estimates on the scale voted for a limited period; or if they should, a saving may be expected on some other head.

Ordnance—England, including Sea Service

£3,911,000

Ireland

807,000

4,718,000

Miscellaneous—England

1,500,000

Ireland

670,000

2,170,000

On this head of expence, however, which must appear considerable, it is right to state, that there are included several important grants in contemplation—such as the provision for the family of lord Nelson, and for the remuneration of our Seamen; objects, which I am sure will be a sufficient justification of the expence they may occasion.

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Arrears of subsidies

1,000,000

Vote of Credit—England

1,400,000

Ireland

600,000

2,000,000

Making the joint supply

43,669,000

Add, however, separate charges of England.

To the East-India Company

1,000,000

This claim is of several yrs. Standing. A Commission had been appointed to investigate the demand of the company, in 1803; a million was voted, and also last year, and in Autumn, it was understood by the Company, that another million would this year be proposed to be voted.

There is also a deficiency of Malt, 1804

340,000

Ditto, Ways and Means of 1805

1,707,000

Interest on Exchequer Bills

1,000,000

It may be proper to say a few words in explanation of that article. It arises from the method pursued of issuing. Exchequer Bills bearing a certain interest. It has not hitherto been usual to provide the interest at the time the bills are voted, but it comes into the supply of the following year. It has been thought advisable, however, to bring that expence within the year, and provided for it accordingly.

There is called for, also, a sum of 700,000 l. to pay off 5 per Cents. of 1797, and in October next, 500,000 l. more will be wanted

1,200,000

5,247,000

Total supplies,

48,916,000

Deduct for Ireland 2-17ths of 43,669,000 l.

5,137,528

Also 2-17ths for Civil List and other Charges

160,000

5,297,528

Remains, on account of England

43,618,472

WAYS AND MEANS.
The noble lord said he would next proceed to state the Ways and Means. In the first place there were the Malt and Personal Estate Duties which he took at 2,750,000 l.; then the Grants of the Proceeds of the Ships captured prior to the war. His majesty's intention on this subject had been communicated to the house. Though the suns of 1,000,000 l. thus obtained, belonged ex-

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clusively to England, yet it was thought proper to allow two-seventeenths to Ireland. The lottery he should take at 380,000 l.; the surplus of the Consolidated Fund at 3,500,000 l. The War Taxes had been taken last year at 14,500,000 l. but for reasons he should explain, he should take them at 18,000,000l. The Ways and Means would stand thus:

Malt and personal Estate Duties

£.

2,750,000

Grants from proceeds of Ships captured prior to the War

1,000,000

Lottery

380,000

Surplus Consolidated Fund to 5th April, 1807

3,500,000

War Taxes

19,500,000

Deduct as likely to be outstanding at 5th Apr., 1807

1,500,000

18,000,000

Loan

18,000,000

43,630,000

The loan he had made this morning was for 20,000,000 l. of which 18,000,000 l. was for England, and 2,000,000 l. for Ireland. The terms of it he believed had given general satisfaction; of this loan no less a sum than 5,800,000 l. was to supply arrears and deficiencies of last year, so that the loan for the current year was only 12,200,000 l. Part of those arrears consisted of subsidies, with respect to which it would be difficult to submit any estimate, from the circumstances under which the treaties were made, as it was not ascertained what sums they would be entitled to receive.

For the East-India Company

£.1,000,000

Deficiency of the Malt Duty

340000

Deficiency of Ways and Means

1707000

Interest of Exchequer Bills

1000000

To pay off arrears of 5 per Cents. for 1796

1200000

Making in the whole

5247000

Having stated the Ways and Means, he should go somewhat more into explanation. First, as to the war taxes, he held documents which would enable him to state the rise and progress of the war taxes. The causes of that rise were such as justified the house in carrying them as far as the patriotism of the public would render them productive. In 1798, the right hon. gent. who had preceded him in office, had thought it necessary to have recourse to the principle of raising a considerable part of the supplies within the year. It was needless to go through the various modes on which this principle applied, or to recall the efforts made under the name of the Assessed Taxes, Income Tax, or, more recently, the Property Tax. But, to enable the house to judge of the general expediency of continuing those efforts, he should state what
570
had been the effect of the system of the war taxes last war, compared with the present war. On the 5th of February, 1793, the unredeemed debt was 226,989,000 l. On the 5th of February, 1803,480,572,000 l,. which was an increase in the ten years of 253,583,000 l. making an average increase in each year of 253,583,000 l. This fact would enable the house to judge of the additional security and strength the country had derived from having had recourse to such a system. Feeling the propriety of it, he should proceed to state the mode in which he meant to apply it; and first, as to the Property Tax. It was not for him to give his opinion as to the policy of such a tax being originally adopted, but he had a right to say, that compared with those which had preceded it, such as the assessed taxes, it was the most equal and equitable tax; but there was this additional reason in its favour, that it was an established tax, and, considering all the experience the house had had of the difficulty of enforcing a system of direct taxation, and the complex machinery that must be set on foot to give it effect, he thought no apology would be required for making use of the

PROPERTY TAX.
This, said his lordship, I propose to carry at once to 10 per cent. It may seem paradoxical to say, that this mode of increase is preferable to one more gradual, and less alarming to the public. Such, however, is my opinion. A gradual rise would have led to the supposition that this was a fund to be drawn upon to an indefinite extent, but being raised at once to its natural limit, there will be less suspicion of future augmentation. Besides the addition to the rate, I am persuaded that considerable addition may be made to the produce by judicious regulation. That there have been fraud and evasion in the payment, cannot be doubted, and the mode of exemption has furnished the greatest facility to the attempt. But notwithstanding the diminution of the produce through that cause, I should have been sorry to have deprived of exemption those who have a fair claim to it. But, still exemption and relief will be extended to those who most stand in need of it, while the means of evasion will be taken away. The classes most worthy of being considered, with a view to relief, are small tradesmen and small annuitants, in whose favour some provision will be made. It is proposed then that 10 per cent. shall be paid on all property above 50l. a year, but on pro

571
duction of the will or deed, constituting the annuity and demonstrating the claim to exemption, the tax office will be authorised to make repayment. The farther regulation of that part of the plan will come afterwards to be considered, but the object is to reserve the benefit to those classes I have mentioned. The small tradesmen undoubtedly are least the objects of taxation, because they have not the means of adding property to labour, which those possessing property can; and the principle will be to reach, as far as possible, all those who have property. There will be some regulation respecting hospitals and charitable institutions. As one mode of rendering the tax more productive, I am happy to state, that the governors and directors of the bank have agreed to receive the duty on the dividends at the bank. Regulations will be adopted to facilitate the assessment, and to ease the labours of the commissioners. For this purpose it is proposed to empower the commissioners to make an assessment of houses and land for two years, which will save them some trouble, and it is probable that such a mode will be equally satisfactory to all. The sum which this addition will produce is estimated at 5 millions.

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE.
Another million is expected front the Customs and Excise; and this source will be the more agreeable, seeing that it is derived chiefly from the enjoyments of the higher classes. It is proposed, with certain modifications and exceptions, to raise the war duties of the Customs from one fourth to one third. Tobacco will be taxed under the Excise. Certain woods coining under this branch are to be exempted. An addition will be made to the duty on sugar of 3 shillings additional per cwt. As this tax has continued progressively to increase, and from its bulk and perishable nature cannot easily be smuggled, there is little doubt that with the addition it will be productive. The Customs then I take at 700,000 l. Under the Excise an additional duty on tobacco, and in the present circumstances, and distribution of our navy, smuggling being less practicable, it will continue productive. This will be 300,000 l.

Total—Custom and Excise

£.1,000,000

Property Tax

5,000,000

6,000,000

THE LOAN.
Next follows the Loan contracted for this
572
day, which, I am happy to say, is not only upon terms advantages to the public, but from what I have heared, is also beneficial to the contractors. The terms are,

For every 100 l. advanced, 100 Three per cent. Consols at 60 ⅜

£.60

7

6

66 Three per cents Reduced 59 ⅜

39

3

9

99

11

3

Amount of Discount on prompt payment

3

10

0

103

1

3

So that the Interest paid by the public is under 5 per cent. being .4 19 7

To cover the interest, one per cent, sinking fund, charges, &c. on this loan, a sum of 1,136,000 l. is to be provided; which I propose to do in the following manner:—

I propose to render the Wine Duty already existing, permanent and applicable towards the interest of the Loan, which will give

£.500,000

A Duty on Pig Iron of 40s. per ton. This tax was formerly in contemplation, and as the object is now greatly extended in use, and as 200,000 tons was the quantity then manufactured, I apprehend that the quantity may be estimated at 250,000 tons, which at 40s. will be

500,000

Upon this head there will be counter vailing Duties on Foreign Iron, and a fair drawback will be allowed, This tax will be under the Excise.

The third object is, a Regulation of the Duties on Tea. Formerly it was intended, for the relief of the lower classes, that no tea supposed to be used by them should fall under the tax. But the fact is, either that the lower classes, preferring a better article, do not buy the inferior kind, or the venders mix it, so defrauding both government and their customers, the inferior tea is not sold. The Equalization of the Duties on Tea is expected to produce

70,000

Next I propose, that, as there is a considerable Tax on Auctions, there should be a Tax on Appraisements; both these modes being adopted, to give the highest value that can be procured to objects sold. I estimate this tax at

66,000

One-half the Duty on Auctions.

Total

1,136,000

CIVIL LIST.
Before I sit down, I am desirous to make a few observations respecting the expenses of the Civil List, amounting, on the 5th of January, 1806, to 158,000 l. It will not be necessary for me now to detail to the house the circumstances which have occasioned this debt; they will be satisfactorily and fully explained whenever the subject comes properly under consideration. As far as I have been able to judge of the items of increased expence,

573
many of them appear to be unavoidable. My advice is, that they should be discharged out of the proceeds of the ships captured previous to the war, of which fund there is yet a considerable surplus, even after the deduction of the million which has been included in the Ways and Means.$#x2014;

RECAPITULATION.
In order to bring the whole of the subject under one view, I will trespass so far upon the indulgence of the house, as to recapitulate the several details both of the Supplies and the Ways and Means; and first I will state the supplies, consisting of the following items:—
SUPPLIES.
NAVY, exclusive of the Ordnance Sea

Service

£. 15,281,000

ARMY

England

18,500,000

Ireland

ORDNANCE

England, includg Ordn. Sea service

3,911,000

Ireland

807,000

4,718,000

MISCELLANEOUS

Eng-land

1,500,000

Ireland

670,000

2,170,000

Arrears of Subsidies

1,000,000

41,669,000

Vote of Credit

Eng-land

1,400,000

Ireland

600,000

2,000,000

Joint Charge, England and Ireland

43,669,000

Add England's separate Charges: East-India Company

1,000,000

Deficiency Malt Duty, 1804

340,000

Ditto Ways and Means, 1805

1,707,000

Interest on Exchequer bills

1,000,000

To pay off 5l. per Cent. 1797, at 5th April, 1806

700,000

Ditto 10th Oct.

500,000

1,200,000

5,247,000

Total Supplies

48,916,000

Deduct, on account of Ireland as below,

5,297,528

On account of England.

43,618,472

Deduct, on account of Ire-land,2-17ths of the above Sum of 43,669,000l.

5,137,528

Deduct also 2-17ths, for Civil List and other Charges

160,000

5,297,528

WAYS AND MEANS.
Malt and Personal Estate Duties

2,750,000

Grants from Proceeds of Ships cap-tured prior to the War

1,000,000

Lottery

380,000

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Surplus of Consolidated Fund to 5th April, 1807

3,500,000

War Taxes

19,500,000

Deduct, as likely to be outstanding at 5th April, 1807

1,500,000

18,000,000

Loan

18,000,000

£.43,630,000

After this recapitulation, said the noble lord, I have to express my sincere wish that I could follow up this statement by adding, that the burthens which I have now felt it my duty to propose are light; but, as I do not think so, I will not so represent them. At the same time, I should think ill of myself by thinking meanly of my country, if I could entertain a doubt that they will be supported with that constancy and fortitude, which are the most distinguished features in the character of any country, but which I may venture to say are prominent in this. I feel myself justified in stating, that if the people of this country would have borne these burthens with cheerfulness formerly, they have now additional motives to do so— now that we are placed in a crisis of our affairs— now that by the failure of our hopes from the co-operation of allies on the Continent, we are left to our own resources and to our own exertions. In such a moment, the people of this country will call forth all their energy, and shew themselves equal to any difficulties with which they may have to contend. As they feel too that they will be called upon to bear those burthens only so long as the war is necessary, so they must know that if it is necessary the contest involves in it every thing they hold dear as individuals and as a nation. They will bear these burthens the more cheerfully too, feeling a confidence that what they contribute will be strictly applied and economically administered to the purposes for which it is given. They know that if any set of men ever were pledged to economical government, it is the present ministers, and if they swerve from that pledge, they. must retire from office, carrying with them their own condemnation and disgrace. The public, however, feel this confidence, both from the character of the present ministers and from the benefits lately derived from enquiry, particularly from the labours of the naval commissioners. These things infuse confidence into the people, and they will support ministers in the economy they wish

575
to practise. In the office I have the honour to fill, I have already experienced those advantages, and from the commission of military enquiry, emulating the conduct of the other commission, I trust that farther benefits will be obtained. Confident I am that ministers will be desirous to follow up the plans and improvements which these enquiries may suggest. In the mean time I am happy to say that steps are taking to recover the sums lost to the public by malversations in the West Indies, and measures are adopted to put a stop to those scenes of fraud, perjury, and peculation, which have too long prevailed. Ministers are doing, and will do their duty with that firmness, by which alone the evils meant to be corrected can be met and subdued; and seeing this, the people will be still farther disposed to bear their burthens with cheerfulness, and to exert that fortitude and courage they have so often displayed. If there be any thing in the statements I have made, in which I feel pride, it is that there is no concealment in them. The notoriety and publicity of our public accounts and financial transactions is one great cause of the public credit. That publicity it shall be my endeavour, as far as my humble efforts can go, to promote. It is recorded of an old Roman moralist, that he wished to build his house in such a manner that it should be open to the view of all, and that his conduct might be liable to the inspection and censure of his fellow-citizens. The principle of this wish I am desirous to see acted upon in our system of finance; and to extend the familiar acquaintance of the public with subjects of that sort, shall be one of the points I shall keep most steadily, in view, convinced that this publicity is the circumstance most calculated to remedy that constitutional evil which has been thought most incident to the increase of our public burthens. I will no longer trespass upon the indulgence of the committee, but shall conclude with moving the first resolution.
Mr. Francis,after some compliments to the noble lord (Henry Petty), and acknowledgements of the industry and ability he had shewn, and the perspicuity with which he had stated a detail of topics so intricate and so extensive, for all which he gave him the highest credit, proceeded as follows:—Mr. Speaker; there are two material passages, in the excellent speech of my noble friend, on which I cannot retrain from making a few very short remarks;
576
on the first with great satisfaction;—on the second, I am sorry to say, with equal regret. I hear with pleasure, and I congratulate the house on the event, that my noble friend has found means to induce the governors and directors of the Bank of England to receive the duty on the dividends at the Bank. Whether that is to be done by deducting the amount in the first instance, or by what other process, I think he did not state. In whatever manner the measure may be executed, I am sure he has a full right to take personal credit for it, and to state that it will render the tax more productive, as I have no doubt it will do to a considerable amount. A regulation, of the same kind, was attempted a few years ago without success, and I was present when the chancellor of the exchequer informed the house that the directors of the bank, after long consideration, and some trial too, if I am not mistaken, had declared that the plan could not be executed; that it would derange their accounts and disorder their books, and that, in short, the thing, though desirable, was impracticable. The merit of overcoming these difficulties is due to the noble lord, and the value of the improvement enhanced by its being, to me at least, quite unexpected.—The other subject, to which I must advert, does not furnish matter for similar satisfaction. I mean the sudden and excessive increase of the Income Tax, by raising it at once to 10 per cent. I am afraid he will find great difficulties in his endeavours to reconcile the country to the amount of this enormous addition to their present burthens. I fear it will occasion much more general uneasiness, if not universal distress and discontent, than he is at present aware of. But it will be matter of surprize to me indeed, if the argument he resorts to, in defence of this rapid course of taxation, should satisfy the judgement of any man in the kingdom, even among those, who may be best disposed to submit to the amount. My noble friend justly observes, that it may seem paradoxical to say, that this mode of increase is preferable to one more gradual and less alarming to the public." Now I do not deny that an extraordinary proposition may be true, though it contradicts a received opinion. But then the evidence or the argument must be too powerful for the opinion. Instead of which, it seems to me that the proof in this case is full as great a paradox

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as the proposition. The grievance or the burthen, as it is now felt, is a tax of five or six per cent., and the best way to cure the disorder or to silence the complaint, is to double the demand. He admits that gradual increase would be less alarming to the public, and for that reason he rejects it; as if the human mind were so constituted that, the more it is surprised, the less it is afflicted. This doctrine is new; but, I confess, that the novelty does not, to my apprehension, at all lessen the grievance. My noble friend affirms, that "a gradual rise would have led to the supposition that this was a fund to be drawn upon to an indefinite extent; but, being raised at once to its natural limit, there will be less suspicion of future augmentation." How so? Why is ten per cent. a more natural limit than eleven; or how does one violent act furnish an internal security against others of the same quality? All we know is that the thing done is a precedent, and that, in cases of this nature, the precedent most likely to be followed is that, which is most productive. Whether the increase of this tax proceeds gradatim or per saltum, whether it arrives at its natural limit by slow steps or hasty strides, I see no certainty that 10 per cent. will be the final extent of the demand; or that, in a few years, when the rapid principle cannot easily or safely be resorted to again, we shall not be invited to revert to the quiet and gentle operation of a gradual increase. As to any security, provided by either of the two principles, against future augmentation, I confess I see none. I throw out these thoughts, sir, very bastily, in hopes that they will be duly considered by the noble lord, and by other gentlemen more conversant in the subject than I am.
Lord Henry Pettythanked the hon. gent. for the partiality he had been pleased to express, and he felt it his duty, in answer to what had fallen from the hon. gent. respecting the conduct of the bank directors, to say, that the directors certainly acknowledged an application made to them by the right hon. gent. whom he had the honour to succeed, to induce them to receive the duties upon the dividends in their hands; which they declined, because in the situation where in they stood they had objections very natural for them to entertain; but, in answer to the application lately made to them, they condidly stated, that they saw so much evasion and un-
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fairness practised, that they were induced to relinquish their scruples, and to agree to receive the duties payable on the dividends in their hands. With respect to the other point, namely, the increase of the Property Tax to 10 per cent. though he regretted the disapprobation of the hon. member, yet upon the best consideration. he had been able to give the principle, he must still think it an eligible one; and had only to repeat his former opinion, that he thought the public would be much better pleased with an increase of the tax, to that natural point beyond which it was not likely to be extended, than by a gradual increase year after year, of which they could reckon upon no definite limitation.
Mr. Roseacknowledged the very clear and satisfactory statement brought forward by the noble lord, and said it was not his intention to oppose his taxes; there was but one of them to which he had any special ground of objection: and had the noble lord contented himself with the eulogies he chose to bestow upon himself and his friends, he should not have risen to say a single word; but in answer to what had fallen from the noble lord towards the latter end of his speech, in the censure he had endeavoured to cast upon his majesty's late ministers, for a system of fraud, perjury, and peculation, which he alledged to have existed in the West Indies, unchecked and unpunished by those ministers, as if suffered to continue with their privity and acquiescence, he must beg to be indulged in a short reply. It had happened to himself, when a member of the late administration, to have been the first to detect those frauds and peculations, and he lost not one moment in the speediest endeavours to bring the perpetrators to condign punishment; as could be proved by the evidence on the table of that house. He had brought in a bill for the appointment of special commissioners, who were dispatched to the West Indies, to make strict enquiry into those frauds and abuses, in order to the punishment of the offenders, and to the attainment of restitution for the public. Those commissioners had transmitted home their reports, from time to time, to his majesty's government, who immediately committed them to the law advisers of the crown, in order to the speediest possible institution of such legal proceedings as they should deem most expedient for the objects in view. Why they were not brought to justice, it was not for

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him to account, as certainly no step was omitted, on the part of the late administration; his hon. and learned friends near him could best answer on that point. The noble lord had also bestowed much panegyric on himself and his colleagues, upon the ground of the publicity they were determined to give with respect to the state of the finances and expenditure of the country, as if the noble lord meant to insinuate that the conduct of his majesty's late ministers had been exactly the reverse, or that the noble lord and his colleagues introduced under this profession, any thing new into the management of the public accounts. Now, was it not his late right hon. friend, now lost, and so justly and universally lamented by the country, that first instituted enquiry into the public accounts, and probed them to the bottom? Was it not under his auspices that those sources of publicity were established, for which the noble lord now took credit to himself and his colleagues? With respect, however, to the frauds which had existed in the West Indies, he was extremely glad to hear from the noble lord, that exertions of his majesty's late ministers had been followed up to bring the perpetrators to justice, and he seriously wished the endeavour might be successful. As he was up, there were some of the proposed taxes which called for some observation; the merits of those taxes he did not now mean to discuss. The tax on iron, for instance, would affect an important branch of raw materials in the manufactures of the country. Was the noble lord aware, that our exports in the manufactures of iron had, of late years, fallen off nearly one half, while that of steel and the finer species had dwindled almost to nothing? The right hon. gent. made similar objections to the Silk duty. Unless a drawback were allowed, a considerable damp must he cast on the export of two most important manufactures.
Lord Henry Pettyobserved, that if the only part of his speech to which the right hon. gent. objected was that in which he had spoken of the frauds arid peculations in the West Indies, and the publicity intended to be observed in the public accounts,
conceiving him on those points to have cast a censure upon his majesty's late ministers, he. begged leave to disclaim any such design. He had never once named his majesty's late ministers in the course of his speech, nor should he be disposed to speak
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of a right hon. gent., now no more, otherwise than with respect. When he spoke of the shameful system of fraud, peculation, and perjury, which had existed in the West Indies, he spoke of it only as shameful to the perpetrators. He did not state that his majesty's late ministers had taken no pains to detect or to punish those frauds, but he stated, they were still in continuance, and still uncorrected. With respect to the conduct of a late right hon. gent., nothing that he had said this night, or on any other occasion, could be fairly construed to detract from his merits; on the contrary, he gave him every credit for the measures instituted by him, to detect and prevent fraud, and for the establishment of the sinking, fund. The noble lord added, that the only eulogium he had uttered, was the professing his determination to adhere to a strict discharge of his duty, and his conviction, that the public held confidence in the intentions of his majesty's present ministers, which they were determined to justify by their conduct.
Mr. Rosereferred the noble lord to the act of parliament, to see what had been done to check the abuses complained of.
Lord Henry Pettyreplied, that the object of the act had not been attained.
Mr. Perceralobserved, that although the noble lord had made no direct charge against his majesty's late ministers, there was in the tenour of his speech a pretty broad insinuation against their conduct; that the public were more ready to bear an increase of burthens on the present occasion than before; and that the fraudulent transactions in the West Indies had continued by something like negligence or connivance: and the noble lord said this in such a way, as he must feel called for some answer. With respect to the West-India subject, he was ready to vouch for the statement made by his right hon. friend. He was extremely glad to hear from the noble lord, that proceedings had been instituted to bring those delinquents to justice; but he apprehended, from the nature of the reports he had seen, it would be extremely difficult so to do. With respect to the other parts of the noble lord's statement, he agreed with the hon. member who spoke second in the debate, that it was clear and satisfactory to the house; but there were some parts of it, on which he did not mean to urge any discussion now, but should barely mention, by way of putting in his claim to investigate them on a future day.

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He alluded principally to the manner of proceeding adopted by the noble lord, in moving the whole Ways and Means, before the estimates were before the house, or the supplies for those estimates yet voted; particularly the items of the Army estimates. The noble lord might have made himself, by this time, sufficiently acquainted with the subject, by communicating with a right hon. friend near him (Mr. Windham), to have satisfied the house. The estimates, when they should come forward, he hoped would be satisfactory; but the circumstance was such a one as not to pass without parliamentary notice. On the arrangement proposed in the income-tax, he feared many difficulties would arise, extremely embarrassing and unsatisfactory; but he was glad to find, that, in one respect, it was brought now again to that state in which it was first established when he had the honour of being a member of his majesty's administration. Upon the appraisement tax, he felt that great and unexpected difficulties would arise, judging from the experience he had had of the frauds and evasions practised under the auction tax, which were of the grossest nature, and to an enormous amount. Nothing was more common than for the proprietor of an estate to put it up to auction, in order to find out the highest bidder, which done, he bought in the estate himself, pro forma, and afterwards sold it by private contract to the bidder before mentioned, and thus eluded the whole of the duty.
Lord H Pettyrepeated the statements he before made of estimates of the supply and Ways and Means, to shew that the latter did not exceed the former in the proportion mentioned by the learned gent. The tax upon appraisements, he said, would be raised by a stamp duty; and, he admit-that the state of the auction duty was worthy of great consideration. The circumstance of first setting up things to sale, then buying them in, and afterwards disposing of them by private contract, he was sensible of being a great source of frauds upon the revenue.
Mr. Percevalsuggested, as one remedy for this, to deprive the principal of all right to become himself a bidder. He then once more reverted to the impropriety of voting Ways and Means beyond the supply, which, he said, was repugnant to the constitutional principle of not laying unnecessary burthens upon the people. He also suggested, that, as the exchequer bills
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were, at present, very little productive to the revenue, the tax upon them should be deducted, at the bank, in the same manner as the tax on stocks; which, he thought, was the only way of making every individual pay his just proportion.
Lord H. Petty, in reply to the constitutional objection of the learned gent., said he understood the true restraint to be, that the Ways and Means should not be applied by government before the supplies were voted.
Mr. Rosecontended that they should not even be proposed to the house, till the supplies were known.
Mr. Secretary Foxadmitted that the Ways and Means ought not to exceed the supply, but contended that the object was to prevent government from raising money by Ways and Means till the house had an opportunity of recognizing the necessity of the supply. The war taxes, as had been stated by the noble lord, were regularly voted for the service of the year. The surplus, if any, might be properly applied to different services; for instance, to the sinking fund. But his noble friend would take care that the Ways and Means should not exceed the supplies to be voted. He admitted, however, that there was considerable inconvenience in bringing forward the Ways and, Means before the estimates for the army were regularly before the house, and it was one which ought as much as possible to be avoided. But the same sort of inconvenience was felt last year in the vote with regard to the subsidies, the amount of which depended upon treaties with foreign powers, which at that time were not in great forwardness, But though he admitted the inconvenience, he denied that there was any thing in this proceeding which counteracted any fixed principle. The inconvenience of delaying the bringing forward of the budget till the army estimates could be regularly produced, would, however, have been greater than the one under which they at present laboured, and government had only the choice between the two. Now, with regard to the words of his noble friend respecting the frauds and abuses in the West Indies, he must say that he was taken up in a very hasty manner. He had heard him perfectly, but had no idea that he had brought any charge against the late administration. He had, on the contrary, praised highly the scheme of the sinking fund, in which he cordially joined him. He had heard no

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charge against the late administration; but he considered it somewhat hard and unfair that his noble friend should be prevented from saving that it was the intention of government to adopt means for putting an end to frauds and perjuries, merely. lest he should be understood to bring a charge against the late ministry. The remark was certainly not improper in itself; but how long was it since those abuses had been detected? ten years was it? (no! no! from the other side). How long then? Only five years; very well. On the first view of the thing it might naturally enough be thought that there was no necessity for such along delay in bringing the offenders to justice, or doing something in the affair. But, however, he did not mean to say that the late government had not made exertions to put an end to the frauds and abuses to which he had adverted. Now as to the tax on Appraisements, if the frauds in the tax on auctions could by this means be prevented, it would be a great object gained. It would be proper that this should be considered, and any assistance that might be given by the hon. and learned gent. on the other side would be thankfully accepted. There were also difficulties as to the claims to the exemptions, and this point might, no doubt, require consideration. With respect to the tax on Property, he concurred with his noble friend, that it was better to raise it at once to the amount at which it was likely to hold during the war, than to advance it gradually. It might be said, and it had been said by his hon. friend near him (Mr. Francis), that there was no security against its being still gradually raised. But then, he certainly thought that the present mode was preferable to advancing it 1 per cent. in one year, and 1 1/2 per cent. in another year, and so on, which would at last lead to a constant gradual advance, which might in the end annihilate all property. This he had stated on a former occasion to be his great objection to such a gradual advance. Gentlemen now, however, might be at rest upon this head. It had been said, that his noble friend had praised himself; those who knew him, would say, that this was not a fault of his. But what bad be said? He stated that every means would be adopted to check abuses, not in contradistinction to any thing that had been done by another ministry, but merely as a fact, and the grounds on which he stated this resolution to rest were, the Reports of the commissioners of naval enquiry, and
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the labours of the Military Commission, which had certainly been appointed by the late administration. These were the reasons which he had given for his expectation of public confidence and support. He had given a noble pledge, and he had no doubt he would adhere to it, which rested upon the truest principle that could possibly be stated, and that was, that no exertion would be spared in attending to, and investigating abuses and their causes, with a view to find out the means of correcting them, and inspiring the public with a well founded confidence that their money would be properly expended; which was the only thing that could induce them to bear with cheerfulness the burthens which it was necessary to impose upon them.
Sir Vicary Gibbsadverted to the proceedings relative to the West-India abuses, and confirmed the statement of his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Perceval), that the want of legal evidence was the only cause why the offenders had not been brought to trial.
Sir William Youngsaid that he had never objected to a colonial tax, nor would he do it now. He only rose to set the noble lord right as to a fact. He had said that the prices of sugar at present bore him out in the conclusion that this article was a proper subject of taxation. He could say, from his personal knowledge, that the owners did not, since the year 1798, get more than two thirds of the price which they had formerly received. As they had not the home market, he hoped that a proper drawback would be allowed, that they might at least have the advantage of the foreign market.
Mr. Huskissoncontended that every attention had been paid to the abuses and frauds in the West Indies, from the time when they had been detected. He was sorry that the delinquents had not been brought to condign punishment; but this was owing to the peculiar circumstances of the case, and not to any want of attention on the part of the late government? Many abuses, however, had been pointed out, and, from the efforts that had been made, there were at first a great many which certainly did not now exist. He congratulated the country upon the pledge which the present government had given; a pledge, which, in his opinion, did them great honour, that they would adhere to the system of finance which had been adopted by his honoured friend who was now no more.

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This system was to raise the Ways and Means as much as possible, in such a way as to equal the supplies, and keep down as much as possible the loans, which were necessary to be contracted. He was happy in this pledge, because, from some things which they had heard out of doors, and from other circumstance, the friends of that system had felt a considerable degree of uneasiness. He then adverted to the deficiencies of the last year, and contended that they arose on account of services for which no grants had been made by parliament. This he did in order to shew that his deceased friend had not prepared his accounts with that negligence and want of foresight which might, perhaps, have been attributed to him, by those who might have had no opportunity of knowing any thing of the matter, except from the statement of the noble lord. He concluded by expressing his approbation of the manner in which the budget had upon the whole been proposed.
Mr. Vansittartadmitted that it would, no doubt, be extremely improper to bring forward the Ways and Means, unless those who brought it forward had some idea of what the expence of the military department was likely to be. He by means agreed with the hon. gent. who had just sat down, that the surplus of the consolidated fund was under-rated, and denied the criteria upon which the hon. gent's estimate was founded; but yet he would, of course, be happy if the result should appear to justify the hon. gent.'s calculations. The right hon. gent. took occasion, in alluding to the war taxes, to state that the country was indebted to his noble friend (lord Sidmouth) for the origination of that system, from which such salutary efforts were found to spring, and the principle of which now met the universal concurrence of parliament, and the country.
Mr. S. Bournealledged, that so far from overlooking the frauds committed in the West Indies, the late board of treasury issued several orders for the prosecution of all persons concerned in such frauds, and absolutely referred the case to the comptrollers of the navy, with directions to suggest proper measures to guard against their recurrence. He had also to state, that immediately after the report of the commission on the subject of these frauds, the report was referred, with a similar view of prevention for the future, to the commissioners for auditing public accounts.
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So that nothing was left undone by the late board of treasury, to punish the agents, and to prevent the recurrence of the evil complained of.
Lord Templethought it his duty to state, that he knew of his own knowledge, that steps were taken by the late ministry to prevent the recurrence of the frauds committed in the West Indies. These frauds consisted of extravagant premiums on exchange, and false vouchers; and such abuses did, he knew, still continue to exist.
Mr. Huskissoncould not well conceive how the noble lord should undertake to speak so confidently as to the proceedings of the board of treasury. But if those who had the opportunity would look more attentively into the records of that board, it would be seen that no means were neglected, that promised to put a stop to the frauds alluded to. The fact was, that in consequence of an order from the late board of treasury, a person was now under prosecution in the court of exchequer, for permitting the continuance of the abuse which gave room for these frauds, although the character of this individual for integrity was by no means implicated. But, independently of the orders for prosecution, arrangements were made in the West Indies with respect to the drawing of bills upon England, which were particularly calculated to guard against every fraud upon the subject of exchange.
Mr. Rosesaid, that had the noble lord taken the trouble to examine the records contained in his office, he would have found that steps had been taken for correcting the evil in question.
Mr. Percevalsaid, that whatever steps might have been formerly taken for the removal of the evil, yet new culprits might arise, whose cases might require the application of additional remedies.
Mr. Foxcomplained, that after the abuses had been known to exist for five years, no general plan had been devised for preventing their recurrence, and that matters had remained in precisely the same state, as when they were first discovered.
Mr. Longbegged to know, how the sum of 90,000l. payable as interest on the loan from the bank, was to be provided for?
Lord H. Pettyanswered, by exchequer bills.—The several resolutions were then agreed to, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.

MINUTES.
The Ten Million and a Half and One Million and a Half Exchequer Bills' bills, the Spirits Excise Duties bill, and the Felons' Transportation bill, were read a third time and passed, and a message sent to the commons, to acquaint them there with.—Mr. Hawthorne brought up the Expiring Laws bill, the Cape of Good Hope Trade Regulation bill, which were severally read a first time.—Lord Grenville presented a message from the king, purporting that on account of the eminent services performed by vice-admiral sir John T. Duckworth, bart. his majesty is desirous of granting to him a pension of one thousand pounds per annum, for the term of his natural life, and trusts the house will concur in any measure necessary to carry such his majesty's intention into execution. On the motion of lord Grenville, his majesty's message was ordered to be taken into consideration on Monday, to which day the house adjourned.