Sitting of 24 March 1806

MINUTES.
Sir Samuel Romillythe new Solicitor-General, took the oaths and his seat.—Mr. Johnson, from the office of the Chief Secretary of Ireland, presented at the bar, an Account of the Consolidated Fund of Ireland, with the Charges, Payments, and Surplus, for the year 1805.—Mr. Irving, the Inspector-General of Exports and Imports, presented at the bar an Account of the Exports and Imports for 18 years, ending Feb. 1806.—Mr. Cooke from the exchequer, presented at the bar, an Account of all interest paid on exchequer bills, in the years 1803, 4, 5, and the average thereof.—Sir P. Stephens moved, for an account of the sums of money that have been issued by the Commissioners of the Navy, under the 43d of the king, for the discovery of the Longitude.—On the motion of Mr. Windham, the bill for regulating the Commerce of the Cape of Good Hope passed through a committee.—The Secretary at War presented, pursuant to order of the house, an Abstract of the total number of men raised under the Additional Force Act.—Mr. Brooke put off his motion relative to the Contracts for supplying the Navy with Spirits until Monday, as he had reason to suppose that the attention of government was directed to that subject, and that measures might be adopted in consequence, which would render it unnecessary for him to bring forward the motion.—Mr. Grey gave notice, that he should to-morrow move that the thanks of the house be given to admiral sir John Duckworth, and also to the officers, seamen, and marines of his squadron, for their gallant and signal services, by the total destruction of a division of the enemy's fleet in the late brilliant action in St. Domingo Bay.—Lord Temple, with a view to the preparation of some clauses that should remove any objections that existed against the bill for establishing a free port in the Island of Tortola, proposed that the committee on that bill should be deferred to Monday next. After a few observations from Mr. Rose and lord Temple the committee on the bill was put off
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accordingly.—The Irish Common Land Partition bill was read a third time, and passed.—Mr. Hawthorn brought up the report of the 10,500,000 l. Exchequer Bills bill; also of 1,500,000 l. Bills bill, which were severally agreed to.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, the Excise Expiring Law bill, and the Felons Transportation bill, were read a third time and passed.—Mr. Wellesley Pole, pursuant to his notice, rose to move for the production of certain papers relative to the Affairs of India. His object was to bring the whole of the question before the house, as the papers already moved for could afford but a partial view of it. The papers he should move for, were contained in three distinct lists: 1st, Such as related to the Mogul; 2d, Those relating to Bhurtpore; and 3d, Those relating to the war with Holkar. He had submitted his motions to the consideration of the board, on the part of whom no objection was felt to the production of the papers he was to call for. It was therefore unnecessary for him to take up more of the time of the house than by moving, &c. The motions, which were for several letters of different dates, on and after the 31st of May, 1805, from the late governor-general of India to the Secret Committee of the Court of Directors, together with their inclosures, were then put and agreed to.—On the question that there be laid before the house a copy of a letter from lord Lake to marquis Cornwallis, dated Sept. 2, 1805, relative to the reduction of the irregular troops, by order of marquis Wellesley, Mr. Francis asked, whether the papers then moved for comprised all the documents on the subject of the irregular troops? Mr. Pole replied, that they comprised all he thought necessary for his purpose. He was not aware of any others requisite to bring the question fully before the house, but if any other gentleman should be of a different opinion, he could have no objection to agree to any motion that might be made for the production of such further papers as should be deemed necessary.

WITNESSES' DECLARATORY BILL.
The Attorney Generalmoved the 2d reading of the bill from the lords, declaring the Liability of Witnesses to answer. On the question being put,
Mr. Percevalsaid, he did not mean to oppose the 2d reading of the bill, because he should be equally at liberty to state his objections to it on the question for the speaker's leaving the chair, if his learned

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friend should propose to have it committed, Undoubtedly clauses might be added in the committee, which would render the bill less objectionable than, as it then stood, it was. The bill in its present form appeared to him unnecessary, and, in principle, extremely objectionable as, he was convinced, would be the opinion of the house, when it should seriously examine its provisions. In his opinion, it would not, in its present form, either answer the purpose for which it was intended, or declare the law as laid down by the high authorities, that had been called on to decide that point.
The attorney Generalsaid, he would not then enter into the merits of the measure, but proposed that the bill should be committed on Thursday next, when he should be ready to discuss the question with his learned friend. The bill was then read a second time.

BUDGET.
Mr. Rosebegged leave to renew the observation which he had made on Friday last, relative, to the unprecedented case of bringing forward the Ways and Means of the year, before the particulars of the army expenditure had been submitted to parliament, or consequently the whole of the supply for the year voted. He had since looked into precedents, and was most strongly confirmed in what he had on that day urged as the opinion that struck him at the moment. There was not an instance, since the Revolution, of the ways and means of the year having been brought forward before the Army Estimates were voted. When he had stated his opinion on former night, he admitted that a supply to a certain extent had been voted. He was not then aware that the motion which stood for this day would have been put off. But really he felt constitutional objections the developement of the ways and means till the whole of the military expenditure should be voted. The supply already voted was 24,460,000 l. Of the ways and means, only the land and malt had been granted. The noble lord might also consider the war taxes as a part of the ways and means, which, with the land and and malt,would amount to 16,000,000 l. If to this were added the amount of the amount of the loan to be made and provided for in general statement of the Ways and Means of the year on Friday, the Ways and Means would greatly exceed the supply, and against this excess there was nothing to be set but conjectural military estimates. It had been said, that the whole of the last year's military establishment had been voted in February.
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He admitted that to be the cases but a temporary vote would not justify permanent Ways and Means calculated on an indefinite augmentation of that establishment. For these reasons, he thought the subject worthy the consideration of the house. He did not urge the matter with any view to throw an impediment in the way of the measures of government; on the contrary, he should be happy to assist the noble lord to the utmost of his ability.
Mr. Lord Henry Pettysaid, it was his only wish to put the house fully in possession of the objects of public expense, and the Ways and Means by which he proposed to meet them; and to give the house an opportunity of fully considering them before he should call for their final decision, that he should propose only a part of the Ways and Means in the first instance.
Mr. Huskissonbegged leave to remark an inconvenience that would arise from not bringing forward the whole of the Ways and Means of the year at once. According to the late practice, the contractors for a loan were given to understand, that the loan contracted for, was all that would be wanted for the year. That could not be the case, if a;part of the Ways and Means were to be subsequently provided.
Lord Henry Pettyobserved that this objection would not apply, if the contractors themselves should think it proper to form their engagements on the communications made to them by his majesty's ministers.

IMPEACHMENT OF LOAN MELVILLE.
A message from the lords communicated to the house the answer of lord Melville, to a further Article of Impeachment, being the 10th, exhibited against him by the commons of the united kingdom. On the motion of Mr. Whitbread, this answer was ordered to be read. The answer stated, "that the noble lord protested against being bound by the law of parliament when called upon to answer to the charge, under circumstances for which there was no precedent; but that, nevertheless, conscious of his innocence, and confident in the justice of his cause, he makes this answer, saving his right of taking, exceptions, and also saving all the rights and privileges that belong to a peer of parliament. He declares for his answer, that he is in no wise guilty of the crimes and misdemeanours, in manner and form as charged against him by the commons of the united kingdom, and this he affirms himself ready to prove, at such time and place, as to that hon. house

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seem meet: he therefore prays to be discharged and acquitted of those crimes and misdemeanours so falsely urged against him." This answer was, on the motion of Mr. Whitbread, referred to the Committee of Impeachment, to consider thereof, and to report their opinion thereon to the house what was most proper to be done in order to further proceedings.
Mr. Whitbreadthen withdrew to the bar, and brought up the report of the Committee on the answer of lord Melville in the form of a replication, averring that lord Melville was guilty of the crimes and misdemeanours charged upon him by that house, on behalf of themselves and of all the commons of the united kingdom, which they were ready to prove. The replication was agreed to, ordered to be engrossed, and then to be carried by Mr. Whitbread to the lords, as the replication of the commons: Mr. Whitbread then gave notice, that at a proper time he should move, that the house do attend the trial as a committee of the whole house.

ORDNANCE TREASURERS' BILL.
Lord Henry Pettymoved the order of the day for the house to resolve into a committee on the bill for the better regulation of the office of Treasurer of the Ordnance. The order being read, the noble lord explained the objects of this bill: first, that the house might have under its view a correct regulation in the mode of expenditure for such sums of the public money as it should think proper to vote for this branch of the public service; and, secondly, for securing the responsibility of the public officer charged with the disbursement of such expenditure; and to prevent, as far as possible, the misapplication of money entrusted to his charge. If the bill, in its present form, should be liable to any objections, he was ready to attend to the suggestions of gentlemen, and to avail himself of their assistance, so far as he thought really conducive to the objects of the bill; and he should have no objection, if necessary, to re-commit the bill for a future day.—The house having resolved into a committee,
Mr. Wellesley Polesaid, he had a number of suggestions to propose for the adoption of the committee in amendment of this bill, which was utterly inadequate to the purposes for which it was avowed. Most of those suggestions had the approbation of the noble lord himself, upon whom he had felt it his duty to wait, and to mention his objections to the bill; for it was
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his wish, really and sincerely, to communicate such suggestions to the noble lord as had appeared to him from experience absolutely necessary to give effect to the objects of a bill, the principle of which he very much approved. The hon. gent. now entered into a detail of the official routine in the department of Treasurer of the Ordnance, through which monies had hitherto issued, and under which the treasurer not only was enabled, but usually, and he believed uniformly, did make use of large balances of the public money remaining at his disposal, owing to his being enabled to draw for a full quarter's amount of the chief expenditure, a quarter of a year before it was ultimately payable to the claimants. Having suggested an arrangement by which this application might in future be completely prevented, he shewed the impossibility of disbursing, by drafts on the bank, very large sums of money which were payable weekly and individually to working gun-smiths, armourers, and other labourers in the tower, for which purpose it would be absolutely necessary that some balance must remain in the treasurer's hands. But one very principal omission he remarked in the bill was, that, although a large sum was voted for ordnance services in Ireland, the word Ireland never so much as once appeared in the bill. To remove these several defects, he read the amendments which he proposed, and strongly recommended that no alteration with respect to Ireland might take place, as he understood was intended, in the ordnance establishment of that country, which he could assure the committee, and the noble lord, was established on a most correct and effectual system of economy, for the advantage of the public service: he said, that a plan of regulation, similar to the present bill, was in the contemplation of the noble lord late at the head of the ordnance.
Lord Henry Pettyacknowledged the attention paid by the hon. gent. upon a subject to which he was so eminently competent, and approved the amendment he suggested. But with respect to Ireland, the only reason why nothing was mentioned in the bill with regard to it was, that an arrangement was in contemplation, calculated to give the noble duke who, happily for that country, now presided over its government, a more effectual controul over the expenditure of the ordnance department there.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, that for a considerable time before the disease of his late right hon. friend, a project was not only in contemplation for the establishment of effectual checks, such as those now proposed, on the expenditure of public money in the ordnance department, and in every other public office, as professedly intended by the noble lord, but that the plan had really been long acted upon, and only awaited an opportunity of parliamentary regulation, under a bill in the contemplation of his right hon. friend.—The clauses were then read and agreed to, and added to the bill.

IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.
Lord Melvilleattended in his place, and delivered in his answer to the 10th article of Impeachment. His lordship entered his protest against the unprecedented circumstance under which that additional article

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had been preferred; and declared that he did not think himself bound, either by the law or usage of parliament, to answer it. He should, however, plead "not guilty" to the charge generally.—The answer was then ordered to be sent to the commons.