Sitting of 17 March 1806

MINUTES.
On the motion of Mr. Manning, the London Wet Dock bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed.—Sir Stephen Cottrell, one of the clerks of the privy council, presented to the house two books, containing "a Copy of the return or returns, made to the privy council by every archbishop and bishop, of the names of every dignity, prebend, benefice, donative, perpetual curacy, and parochial chapelry, within their respective dioceses, or subject to their respective jurisdictions, and the names of the several persons possessing the same who shall not have resided thereon by reason of any exemption under or by virtue of the act of 43 Geo. III c. 84; and also of all the persons possessing the same, not having any such exemption or licence, who shall not have resided on such dignity, prebend, benefice, donative, perpetual curacy, or parochial chapelry, so far as the bishop is informed thereof." Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Irving, the inspector-general of the imports and exports, presented the accounts of the exports to the island of Tortola, and the orders of council relative thereto, which were moved for by Mr. Rose. Ordered to be printed.—On the motion of lord Henry Petty, a new writ was ordered for Jedburgh, in the room of John Dalrymple, esq. who, since his election had accepted the office of steward of his
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majesty's Chiltern hundreds.—The Mutiny bill, the English Militia Pay bill, the Militia Subaltern's bill, the Militia Adjutants' bill, and the Irish Militia pay bill, were severally read a third time, and passed.—Mr. Alderman Prinsep rose to give notice, that early in the next session he would move for a committee to be appointed to enquire into the state of the carrying trade of British India, unless it should be intimated to him before that period, that the proper board had taken that important subject into their consideration.—Mr. W. Wynne obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend the act of last session, appointing commissioners to enquire into the abuses in the paving, &c. of Dublin.
[IRISH MILITIA SERVICE BILL.] On the question, that the Irish Militia Service bill be read a second time,
Mr. Whitshed Keene roseto offer a few observations. He lamented, that the measure proposed to be adopted, in 1798, for the English militia to volunteer their services in Ireland, and the Irish in England, had not been carried into effect. It had been so, indeed, in a partial degree, by some English regiments of militia, but not at all by the Irish, which he was very sorry for; as the Irish militia, by coming here, would see how much was done by industry, and would receive a good impression of its advantageous consequences. In time north of Ireland, he said, the people were naturally industrious; and, from being so, had acquired property, and he believed them thereby strongly attached to the limited monarchy of this country, and not liable to be led away by any splendid promises, that might he held out to them by the inveterate foe of the united kingdoms, and his satellites, in case an invasion should take place. In the southern and western parts of Ireland, it was, however, different; there the people were poor and ignorant, and, in general, without property. Such people were apt to be led astray by idle stories, and promises of having land given them for their services, and might be induced to join an invading enemy. They would, therefore, be better in England, where they would be of real service, in a military capacity; and the militia of England would be a certain security for the defence of Ireland. The legislative measure of union had taken place; a measure which he voted for, and hoped would, in the end, be productive of the happiest effects; but it was impossible an act of parliament

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could eradicate old prejudices, and those who were poor and ignorant would, as he had before stated, be liable to all the bad effects of those prejudices, which might he removed by their being sent from home. At the breaking out of this war, he said, the government had resorted to a measure of raising sea fencibles, a measure which might do very well in England, but would not in Ireland. There were, however, in Ireland, many men upon the different coasts who were employed in a variety of small craft. Some naval officers had been employed by government to make a survey of the coasts of Ireland, and in doing so they had found, in the various harbours, creeks, and bays, a body of not less than 10,000 men, employed in craft of different kinds, who might, perhaps, become valuable assistants to an invading foe. He thought those men might be embodied and brought over to this country, with great advantage, to act in the capacity of sea fencibles. There would also a farther benefit result from employing them in this way. When the fertility of the Irish was considered, it was not going too far to estimate those men having families of five or six each; so that you would, in time, add to the population of the country, from 50 to 60,000 people. The hon. member mentioned several other good consequences which he thought would result from their mixing the Irish with the English militia, and hoped the bill would be productive of the most salutary effects.—The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.

COMMISSION OF NAVAL REVISION.
Mr. Whitbread,in pursuance of the notice which he had given, rose to submit to the house his motion on this subject. He said, that it must have been observed by the house, that in the ordinary estimates of the navy which had been laid on the table of the house by the member of the late administration, whose department it was to do so then, was an item of 20,000 l. stated to be for the purpose of defraying the expences of the Civil Commissioners of the Navy. It was extraordinary that no information was contained in the body of the estimates of the intended application of that sum. The Commissioners of Naval Enquiry had sat for three years, and had been engaged during the whole of that time in an arduous course of public services, which they had most meritoriously performed, and yet no provision whatever had been made for a re-
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muneration to them for their labours. These Civil Commissioners had been appointed but three months, and at the expiration of that period application was made to parliament to place the sum of 20,000 l. at their disposal. It was certainly just that all those who were employed by the public should be paid by the public, but there should be something like decency in the mode of the application, and something like decency in the selection of the time at which such application was brought forward. In all former commissions of a similar nature, he understood it was the practice to reward the labour when the task was accomplished: in this instance the remuneration was demanded when the work scarcely begun. He was far from throwing any imputation on the individuals who composed this commission. On the contrary, he trusted that they would be emulous of the justly deserved reputation of the commissioners of naval enquiry, and that the result of their exertions would be correspondingly beneficial to the public; but he still thought it his duty to require, that the intended application of the sum that he had alluded to, should be explained to parliament. Supposing that they should continue in the performance of their duties for two years, their salaries would amount only to 15,000 l. and there would then be a surplus of 5,000 l. for any contingent purpose. He thought it but justice to the commissioners of naval enquiry, to observe, that, during the whole of their 3 years extensive investigation, including the expences of their journles at different times to instant ports, and other incidental charges, the whole amount of the public money spent by them did not exceed 5,000 l. He should therefore move, "that there be laid before the house, an Account of the intended application of the ordinary estimate of his majesty's navy, for the year 1806; and stated on the said estimate to be for the purpose of defraying the expences of the commission appointed by his majesty for revising and digesting the Civil Affairs of the navy, in the navy, in the years 1805 and 1806; together with any documents upon which such part of the estimate may have been founded; also any correspondence that may have passed between the admiralty and any of the persons composing the said commission, on the subject of the same."
Lord Castlerleaghhad no objection whatever to the production of this account

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which would enable parliament to judge of the propriety of the estimate alluded to. He would confine himself to a single observation on one part of what had been said by the hon. gent. which was calculated to throw an undeserved aspersion on the proceeding in question. It had been the invariable practice with respect to commissions of this and a similar nature, that when they were appointed by parliament, they were not remunerated until they had accomplished the object of their constitution; but when they were appointed by the crown, parliament would have a just cause of complaint, if application was not made to them for remuneration in the first instance. With respect to the amount of the sum in question, the hon. gent. had himself accounted satisfactorily for 15,0000 l. of it. From the remainder would be paid the secretary, the clerk, &c. He however thought it perfectly right that the paper moved for ought to be produced, in order fully to explain the proceeding.
Mr. Whitbread,in explanation, observed, that it it was the practice when a commission was appointed by the crown, to make as early application to parliament as possible for a remuneration, then the late ministers had been culpably tardy on the subject.
Mr. Bastardapproved of what had been advanced by the hon. gent. and thought that the country was highly indebted to the commissioners of naval enquiry appointed by the house, and that it was but fair to shew that they practised the same economy which they recommended in their reports.
Mr. Wilberforcedid not see the fairness of comparing the simple expences of the commissioners of naval enquiry, unconnected with any remuneration, with the amount of the expences of the civil commissioners, united with their remuneration. He had understood from the noble person who was at the head of that commission, that it was his intention to relinquish his salary.
Mr. Whitbreaddeclared, that he had no wish to make the comparison just stated. If what the hon. gent. had said was the fact, as to the relinquishment of salary intended to be made by the head of the civil commission, that would add 3000 l. to the sum to be accounted for.
Mr. Bastardafterwards moved for, "an account of the expences incurred by the commissioners of naval enquiry in each year since the establishment of that board, specifying the items by which the same
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have been incurred, to the end of the year 1805," which was ordered.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
Mr. Alexanderbrought up the report of the committee of supply, containing the resolutions respecting the Ordnance Estimates. On the motion that these be read a second time,
General Tarletontook this opportunity of making some observations, which he felt it his duty to submit to the house. He was very anxious to know the fate of what had been so much ridiculed under the title of the Parish bill, a bill which was nevertheless become highly productive, having furnished in the last week 353 men. It was likewise important to ascertain the determination of government with regard to that very meritorious, very useful, and very respectable body, the Volunteers, who had been treated by a right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) when he was on the opposition bench, with such derision. He had been a military man thirty years, a great part of which had been spent in active duty; perhaps more would have been so, had it not been for his violent attachment to some gentlemen whom he then saw on the treasury bench. He could assure the right hon. gent. that their ideas of war materially differed. He was not for setting to with all the formality of boxers, but of using every stratagem and every means within reach. It was now near the end of March, and our military preparations were standing still. Another right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) had borrowed a naval cloak front a right hon. friend of his (Mr. Canning), but he had not found it warm enough to bring him down to the house, to move for the repeal of which he had given notice at an early period of the session. He remembered that right hon. gent.'s having compared a late administration (the one which preceded the last) to a team composed of black horses and bay, drawing different ways, by whom he predicted that the state coach would he highly endangered. He should like to know what he could say of the present government, in which there were horses of all colours and all descriptions, black, white, dun, and dapple, some pulling in one direction, some plunging in another, some kicking, others prancing; no accord, no union, nothing that could promise advantage to the country. With regard to the Ordnance Estimates before the house, they were those which had been formed by the late administration, unaltered and unimproved. He meant by this no imputation on the pre

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sent Board of Ordnance, on the head of which particularly he passed a high encomium. In his opinion, the victory of Trafalgar had made a material difference in the situation of Great Britain. From that epoch we might consider the triumph of our navy as complete. We could not expect that the French would again dare to contend with us at sea, and we must therefore look to carry on the war in some other way. Unless some formidable continental confederacy could be formed to divert the attention of the enemy, we must expect about June, that the French troops would flock down to the coast, and in the flotilla with which their every creek and harbour swarmed, make some desperate experiment upon this country. He had no doubt that the best dispositions would be made to receive them warmly, but he could not help suggesting the propriety of not allowing Woolwich to be the sole depository of our means of defence. It behoved government to take steps to create some great central depot. It might be said that one was forming at Wedenbeck, but this was not sufficiently central. He would advise one at Leicester, or Nottingham, in which every thing should be provided and ready for an army of 200,000 men. Under the present circumstances, should any contingency allow the French to waft a large body of troops over to our shores, it was very possible, that the British army might be compelled to act at an unfavourable juncture, merely for the defence of Woolwich, which from its nearness to the coast opposite to France, and from the rapidity with which the French troops were accustomed to march, would be in considerable danger. Every one knew the importance of a great arsenal. It was the capture of the Austrian arsenal in Vienna, that led to the treaty of Presburgh. No man would fight worse, because he knew every means were taken to ensure success to his exertions. Should a central depot, such as he had recommended, be established; should the French land and he enabled to advance, the country might rely on the bravery of the people of the North, of the inhabitants of Yorkshire, of Cheshire, of Lancashire, who would thus have it in their power to combat, and there could be no doubt, ultimately, to defeat the foe. After a brief recapitulation, he concluded by declaring, in the words of Mr. Burke, "that he would rather be despised for too anxious apprehension, than ruined by too confident security."
Mr. Calcraftsaid, that instead of the question before the house, and the only regular one in discussion, the speech of the hon. general embraced such a variety of topics as rendered it extremely difficult to discover what was his principal object. He should not, however, follow him over a field so desultory and irrelevant, but confine himself to the subject of the Ordnance Estimates; with the merit or demerit of which, those who had now the direction of that branch of the public service certainly had little or nothing to do; nor could they have the most distant wish of assuming to themselves any share of the praise or dispraise to which it might be entitled, or to conceal from the house what every clerk in the offices belonging to that department must know; namely, that those estimates were formed by their predecessors in office. They found them ready formed, and under existing circumstances, deemed it eligible to adopt them; and so far from depreciating their merits, he was ready to defend their adoption, against any censure which might be thrown on them. The noble lord now at the head of that department had found, that great expenditures laid already been devoted to the establishment of old works and systems of defence begun, which he deemed it much more eligible to complete and carry into effect, than to attempt the erection or establishment of new. With regard to those designs that had been only planned, but of which the execution had not been begun by the former administration, he admitted that some of them had also been included in the estimates now on the table; but the board did not therefore pledge themselves to abide by those plans. They might adopt them with exceptions, or reject some of them entirely, as should appear most proper on farther deliberation, or from the occurrence of new circumstances. In this case the money that had been destined for those services might be returned or voted to some other purpose. The only alteration in the present estimate, from that which was formed by the late board of ordnance, was an article against which the sum of 12,000 l. was written; and comparing the same estimate for several preceding years, it had been found, on inspection, that the laboratory at Woolwich had annually exceeded 25,000 l. It had been thought therefore, that, contrary to the former practice, the fairest way was to bring forward that specific sum in the esti-

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mates at once as necessary for that purpose. With regard to the removal of the depot from Woolwich, which the hon. member seemed to advise, he confessed that it was not for him to decide on such a question. It was a military question of no inconsiderable magnitude, and would require deliberation. But this was not the only military depot in the country: there was also another arsenal, situated nearly in the center of the kingdom, arid for which a sum had been charged in the estimates; he meant the arsenal at Wedenbeck; which, as would appear from the estimates, had not been overlooked by the board. The hon. gent. concluded by repeating the reasons which had induced the present board to adopt the estimates of the former, which was a circumstance, he thought, that might have secured them from opposition.
General Tarletonsaid he did not mean to blame the present board, for adopting the estimates left them by the former. It had been his intention only to inculcate the necessity of establishing inland depots, for the security and accommodation of the country in case of invasion. The arsenal at Wedenbeck, he represented as very defective state, not a single cannon having been provided for the security of these places.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he rose from no intention to oppose the estimates now before the house, as they were the same that had been framed by his hon. friends formerly in office. He was anxious to know, however, if the present administration had it in contemplation to follow up that system of coast defence upon the Eastern coast, which had been so strongly recommended by his late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt), and which it was his intention to have completed. He felt it necessary to mention this, as although it did not form an article in the estimates of ordnance framed by the late administration, and now - brought forward by the hon. gent. yet it was fully in their contemplation as an essential part of the defensive system, and would certainly have been proposed, had his right hon. friend, on his return from Bath, been able to attend in his place in that house; for, in his opinion, there was no object more essential; because in presenting a strong defence on that point, should the enemy approach our coast, seeing the impracticability of making any impression in that quarter, their efforts would be thrown upon the flanks, in consequence
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of which they would be forced to traverse a considerable distance by sea, in endeavouring to direct their efforts to the northward or southward. In this case there would be great probability of their falling in with the heavy ships of our navy, and being totally defeated. He felt this point so important, that he wished seriously to impress it upon the minds of his majesty's ministers, and to express his hope that no attention to a false or delusive economy would induce them to be sparing in the expenditure necessary for our absolute safety. Indeed, from what he knew of the mind of the noble lord at the head of that department, he was convinced the importance of this consideration would be too deeply felt to stand one moment in competition with an ill-timed parsimony. He thought it also necessary to say, with respect to Ireland, that a plan of general defence was indispensible for the security of that country, and was also in the contemplation of his majesty's late ministers. It was certainly of the first importance to the safety of that that it should no longer remain in a situation in which an enemy, landing with an effective force, might march from one end to the other, unimpeded by a fortified post of sufficient strength to retard their progress. He therefore wished ministers might make up their minds to the necessity of a liberal expence to render that system fully adequate to the pressure of the occasion. He was ready to agree with the hon. general who opened the debate, as to the propriety of dividing the depots of ordnance and arms, and, in pursuance of this plan, a central depot had been formed, in which particular attention had been paid to an adequate supply of small arms and of ammunition fixed and unfixed. He had also the pleasure of informing the house that a train of artillery had also been added, fully manned and horsed; but that the artillery for our navy, with its appropriate ammunition, was so ponderous as not to be very easy of removal, and therefore the principal depot still remained at Woolwich, with minor arsenals at Plymouth and Portsmouth.— He was sensible that this was merely a question on the Ordnance, but he would take the liberty, notwithstanding, of putting a question to the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Windham), though rather foreign perhaps to the subject. That right hon. gent. in answer to an hon. friend of his, on a former evening, had expressed himself

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rather ambiguously respecting the Additional Force act. He had indeed admitted that it would form no part of the plan he was about to submit to the house; but he had not stated explicitly if it was in contemplation to repeal this act. So much convinced was he of the good effects of this act, and so anxious for its continuance, that, should it not he repealed, he thought the suspension, however unpleasant, in the mean time, would be amply compensated by its continuance and vigorous execution. At the same time it became an object to know whether the bill was to be repealed or not, that those counties which had not conformed to its provisions might know in. what situation they stood. For, the moment this bill should be discharged, without some legislative provision for the purpose, those parishes that had not raised their quotas would be indemnified from the penalties incurred by the said act. This certainly would be highly unfair, and be doing an injustice to those counties that had fulfilled their duty. But if it was intended, in order to avoid this injustice, to make those parishes pay the fines they had incurred, it was but fair also to put them on their guard, and to let them know the penalty to which they were liable. This would also have the farther good effect of doing the bill that justice in the execution to which it was. entitled. The right hon. gent. therefore ought, not only to that house, but also to the public, to make a positive declaration of his intentions. The noble lord then proceeded to shew the strength and vigour which this bill had exhibited, notwithstanding the disadvantages under which it had laboured from the professed hostility of the present administration. Then adverting to the Voluntter system, he maintained it to be impossible that any thing like a volunteer, whatever might be the abilities of the right hon. gent., could look without dread and discouragement to any counsels that he was supposed to influence. The noble lord concluded by calling on the right hon. gent. to declare more explicitly his intentions respecting the bill; and should the bill be repealed, it he intended to levy the fines on the deficient parishes according to the spirit of the bill? On this and other questions connected with the military defence of the country, it was indispensible that an immediate determination should take place and that the men of talents, of which the new administration was said to be formed,
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should hasten to exert those talents in a way calculated to be of service to the public. The patient might otherwise expire before the state-physicians had made up their minds, as to the prescriptions that ought to be adopted.
Mr. Secretary Windhamsaid, that a right hon. gent. opposite him (Mr. Canning) had, on a former occasion, expressed an opinion that the new ministers ought to have been ready with their plan, in the space of three days after coming into office; but he surely ought to have considered, and the noble lord in a particular should have repressed his impatience, by reflecting that the dilemma to which they were reduced, and which wanted so much explanation, arose from difficulties which the noble lord himself and his friends had created. Their military system had been so bad, that it naturally produced those difficulties. The strong expectation expressed on the other side of the house, of something new, was a proof, even in their opinion, that something more effectual was absolutely required to be done. The noble lord had very properly compared the present military system to a sick patient. But who had reduced the wretched patient to that languishing state? How came the patient to be in his present situation? Was it not the noble lord, and his friends who had brought him to death's door? And yet, those who had brought the country to that state, were now loud their reproaches against their successors, for hot restoring the patient instantly to health. Then noble lord wished to know, what was to be done? On this head it was very difficult to satisfy his enquiry. The whole of what had been urged on the other side came to this; the gentlemen felt that they had brought the country into difficulties, and expressed their surprise that ministers should be so long in extricating it from them. As to the admonition of the noble lord, with respect to the other topics upon which he had touched, he had only to say, that the attention of his majesty's ministers would be seriously directed towards them. To the other points on which the noble lord asked information, he had no answer to make; not that he was unprepared to give the answer, but because he did not conceive that the noble lord had any right to put the questions. He had nothing to add, therefore, to what he had said before on the subject; namely, that the question as under the consideration of govern-

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ment, and would, in due time, be submitted to parliament.
Mr. Canningthought the right hon. gent. might have given some answer to the question of his noble friend, relative to the course intended to be pursued with regard to the penalties. As the right hon. gent. had alluded to what had fallen from him in a former debate, he should briefly advert to his speech on that occasion. He had never said, that the right hon. gent. had made any declaration, that in three days, he would produce a plan to meet the necessity of the times. The declaration he alluded to was made before there was any prospect of an immediate change, on the first day of the session, when the right hon. gent. had observed, on a wish being expressed for some delay of the public business under the circumstances of the moment, that five days delay was the longest the military system would admit of. This declaration had been made under circumstances of a peculiar nature; and with what feelings, he left the house to determine. The right hon. gent. had wholly mistated the argument of his noble friend. He assumed, that it was admitted on their side of the house, that some remedy was necessary. But in their observations they did not compare the right hon. gent.'s measure with their own, but with his promises; not with the system hitherto acted upon, but with that which he had held forth: They compared what he was to do, with what he had promised he could and would do. A long delay had taken place since the accession of the right hon. gent. to power, and yet he did not think himself called upon to make any previous declaration to the house and the country, of the measures he proposed to adopt. But no person, who had attended to the discussions in that house for the last four years, would think the application for information on such topics very new. It was particularly to be expected from an administration, combining, as had been asserted, and as they themselves represented, and what he was not disposed to deny, all the talents, all the abilities, arid all the experience and wisdom of the country, that they should be ready to bring forward their measures without much delay. The right hon. gent. had proposed many systems, and advanced many theories for the public service before he was in office, and yet he had been so long in administration without either having made up in his mind, or been
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able to persuade his colleagues to agree to his plan. If they were to agitate these questions with a view to draw from the right hon. gent. a premature disclosure of his measures, they would ill discharge their duty to the public. But it was to be recollected, that the late ministers wished for a varied force; the right hon. gent. on the contrary, would have it all uniform, that is, of the description applicable to foreign service. Was it not therefore alarming, that so much time should have been suffered to elapse without his having stated his intentions on this head? They wished to keep up the Volunteer force; he, on the contrary, though he did not depreciate or undervalue the Volunteers individually, had declared the whole system to be radically wrong. Was it not therefore alarming, and was it not natural, for those Volunteers, who, in a military view, had fallen under his suspicion, should be anxious to know, as early as possible, what measures the right hon. gent. meant to adopt with respect to them? Another source of anxiety arose from the circumstances relating to the Additional Force bill. A right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) high in the confidence of the present ministers, had on the first day of the session given notice of a motion for its repeal. Was -it not matter of great anxiety to know the course that would be pursued with respect to this measure? Another source of anxiety was the principle of responsibility being confined to the individual member of the administration, who was particularly concerned in the execution of measures. From this doctrine he differed. The aggregate, and not the individual, was the object of his confidence; and he did hope, that the present administration, though he could not say that he approved of the appointment of particular individuals to the departments they occupied, would be entitled to his confidence, because he saw that there was one great ruling spirit, one presiding soul, to guide, controul, and direct its measures. As a war minister, he could not approve of the right hon. gent., and he was sure that the opinion of nine-tenths of the nation was with him. If he judged of him according to a standard which had been recommended in another instance, by estimating the future by the past, he saw no reason to be satisfied with him in his -present-situation. The right hon. gent. wished to nourish that fine tree, the regular army, and to do so by clearing away all the rub-

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bish, for that had been one of his plans. Another reason why he could not give his confidence to him was, a declaration made by himself, and which, without such declaration, he could impute to no man, that he had sat nine years in a Cabinet, though he disapproved of all its measures during that period, excepting the war.
Mr. Windhamutterly denied the declarations that had been imputed to him. He had inveighed against the measure of the parish bill, without pledging himself to bring forward any specific measure in its place. That he had agreed during the nine years of his former administration with his colleagues in office in nothing but the war, he utterly denied having said. The war had been the basis on which he had gone into power, and was what he had regarded as the bond of union with that administration. Whether that conduct was right or not, it was not now a proper time to discuss.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, he gave credit to the right hon. gent. who had just sat down, for that open and manly enmity which he had so early and pointedly marked to the present administration: he admitted also the kindness of the noble lord who professed, in a manner which one would be inclined to consider as rather a little insidious, that it was not his wish to press the right hon. secretary to premature explanations upon the plans in contemplation. Indeed he had said, that it would be highly imprudent for the right hon. gent. to disclose any part of those plans, and yet the whole of his speech was composed of questions purposely directed to extort that disclosure. The anxiety of the noble lord seemed particularly manifested by his curiosity to know what was to be done with the Additional Force bill, and by his extreme solicitude, lest the same penalties and embarrassing exactions, to which one part of the country had been subjected, should not be extended to all the rest? He begged it, however, to be recollected, that the omission of raising men in those parishes, was not owing to neglect, but to impossibility; and that by much the greater number of them were unable to pay the fines they had thereby incurred. Rigorously to exact those fines would be a curious expedient, to prevent vexation in one part of the country, and of jealousy in another. The right hon. gent. who spoke last, was uneasy lest the Volunteers should take alarm at present suspence, as to what measures
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were to be adopted respecting them. He had the honour to be a Volunteer, and he, for his part, felt no such alarm, and he was confident also that no such alarm could be felt by the Volunteers in general, as friends to their country, in consequence of any uncertainty under which they might remain until ministers brought forward their system. With respect to the wonderful efficacy so recently discovered in the operation of the Additional Force bill, he begged to know on what authority the right hon. gent. made his assertion? or how that bill, when administered by him and his friends, should be so unproductive, and yet so effective now that they had ceased to have the management of it? The hon. member said, he could not speak from official documents, for he had recourse to none; but he could speak from the authority of those who had recourse to such information, and tell the right hon. gent. that this recent efficacy in the bill was not the effect of its natural operation, but the work of crimps and recruiting officers, in turning over to the parish levies, men under size for the line and militia. In respect to the delay of which he had complained, six weeks only had elapsed since his right hon. friend had come into office; a period surely not unreasonable to require for investigating the whole military system of the country, and endeavouring to form a system free from those defects and blunders, with which it was fraught under his predecessors! As to the lecture of the noble lord to his right hon. friend, he should only say, that if there was any mark to direct to the proper course to be pursued, it was to do the very reverse of what the noble lord had adopted whilst he was a member of the administration.
Mr. Secretary Foxsaid, that at another time, he might be inclined to go more at large into the general topics that had been introduced into this discussion, but in the present instance he meant only to observe shortly upon some points that had been touched upon by the right hon. gent. opposite, (Mr. Canning). That right hon. gent. had stated, that the present administration comprised all the talents in the country; and he had even stated it in such a manner as might lead to a supposition that they had so represented themselves. He should be happy that the right hon. gent. would state on what occasion he had heard them so represent themselves. It was impossible that they could have said

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so, when they saw the right hon. gent. on the other side of the house. It would be ridiculous in any person to insinuate that ministry comprised all the talent of the country, when the right hon. gent. was out of office. Not only the right hon. gent. but his colleagues on the same bench with him, had made such a representation impossible, particularly by the display of talent which they had already made in opposition. This declaration he (Mr. Fox) made for himself and his colleagues. It was possible some of the friends of the present administration, thinking too highly of their merits, might from prejudice or partiality have so described them, but he thought it was hardly for the friends of a right hon. gent. lately deceased, (Mr. Pitt) to be the first to object to that species of compliment. He had never, so far as that right hon. gent. was concerned, observed the right hon. gent. opposite an enemy to panegyric; let him look to what he himself had said of his late right hon. friend, and perhaps he would not think the partiality of friends so unwarrantable. With respect to his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Windham), the right hon. gent. had said, that he had no opinion of him, nor any confidence in him as a war minister, and that 99 out of every 100 were of the same mind with him on this subject. This opinion the right hon. gent. immediately took as granted, and then went on—not to propose to turn him out—but to say, "Before you have fully matured your plan, explain to me the nature of it." Was it, he would ask, a fair inference of want of confidence, to require of his right hon. friend to tell them the nature of his plan out of time? His right hon. friend admitted he was not completely ready. In that case he presumed to think it extremely hard that gentlemen opposite should say, Answer us on a point on which you confess you are not ready. It was pretty well known that it was the wish of the right hon. gent. lately deceased, to get the friends with whom he (Mr. Fox) acted, so make a part of his (Mr. Pitt's) administration, and that such endeavours had been used with his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), after he had made the speeches to which the right hon. gent. opposite alluded. It might, indeed, be said, that it was not in the contemplation of Mr. Pitt, to have given his right hon. friend the war department, but to have placed him in some other situation. If he (Mr. Fox), however, understood the
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right hon. gent. opposite, no change of place could have satisfied the right hon. gent., or removed his objections to his right hon. friend's holding any situation. He would have said, "It is not to the head of the particular department that I give my confidence, but to the whole of the Ministry." The right hon. gent. talked of delay. It was not till the 7th of Feb. that his right hon. friend's writ was moved, The right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt), to whom he was convinced the right hon. gent. opposite would not willingly impute delay, or any other bad quality, did not for four weeks after his return to power bring in his Additional Force act. There the time which intervened was nearly as long as in the present instance. There too, a single act only was to be introduced. Here there was a new system to be founded. There, however, no objection of delay was started, neither were any premature enquiries made into the nature of the plan which he intended to adopt. If there had been any such, how awkwardly must that right hon, gent, have found himself situated ifs declaring it to be built on a system such as he himself had been decrying within the last three weeks! The right hon. secretary declared that lie could not figure any reason for putting any question like the present, but a wish to embarrass. What good motive could the persisting in it proceed from, when his right hon. friend had stated that he was not quite ready to bring forward his measure? If he was guilty of delay, why not bring forward against him a charge to that effect, and let his conduct be the subject of parliamentary enquiry? But what advantage could proceed from a premature declaration, similar to that now required? From what good motive could the wish to procure such a declaration, proceed? He should only put it to the candour of the right hon. gent. himself. If, before the plan of the military arrangements now in agitation had been ready to be laid before the house, his right hon. friend had at once moved for the repeal of the Additional Force bill, while nothing was ready to substitute in its stead, what would the right hon. gent. have said? Would he not have said; "Here, this is your haste to shew your triumph over the gentleman who is now no more? Could you not have waited with patience, and allowed the act to take its course till you were ready with a substitute?" He would appeal to the right hon gent. if that would

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not have been his conduct; and, if his right hon. friend now said that this bill formed no part of his plan, did it not follow that this was not the time to investigate or discuss its merits?
Mr. Canning,in reply to the appeal made to his candour, acknowledged, that it the Additional Force act had been repealed before the new system was proposed, he should not only have arraigned it as an impatience to obtain a triumph, but also have contrasted it with the conduct of his right hon. departed friend, who did not repeal the act of his predecessors, until he had a substitute ready to replace it. For some years, the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) had been saying, that a proper system of defence might be formed by any other than drivellers, by getting rid of the existing incumbrances; but now it appeared, that he did not find the task so easy as he was in the habit of representing it to be.
Mr. Percevalthought that the different topics which had been discussed this night, would come more properly before the house on a future occasion. He thought, however, that it was hardly correct in the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) to say, that it was impossible the question could have been put from a good motive, more particularly as his noble friend did not press his question concerning the plan which the right hon. secretary (Mr. Windham) had in contemplation, but limited it as to the penalties. This he thought was a reasonable and proper question, as, while it was suffered to remain in suspence whether they were to be levied or not, it acted with a double disadvantage. With regard to the expectation that had been said to exist on this side of the house, he denied it to be peculiar to this side, and thought it not unreasonable, considering the pledges that had been held out. The right hon. gent. had been in the habit of considering what had been done on this subject as mere drivelling, and representing it as necessary only to clear away the rubbish. It was not wonderful then that some disappointment should be felt when he was so backward with his plans. For his own part however, he had met with no disappointment. He never thought the right hon. gent's plans would be realized. He never believed that better plans could be got than those now existing.
Mr. Foxexplained, that he ascribed no bad motives to any one, and had only said that he could see no good one for those enquiries,
Dr. Laurenceagreed with the hon. gent. who had just sat down, that this was not the time to enter into a discussion on the subject. He however thought the conduct of the gentlemen on the other side was so extraordinary, that he could not refrain from adverting to a few particulars. They had required his right hon. friend to make a statement of certain parts of his plan, when he had already declared, that the plan he intended to propose, was not entirely arranged. It seemed as if their object was to induce him to make declarations, which hereafter might be stated as a curb on his actions. But what man would be so absurd as to make declarations, when they were so likely to be mistated? when, in the debate of that very night, such misrepresentations had been made of former declarations? In fact, they could not be depended on; and he thought his right hon. friend had acted wisely in avoiding them entirely.—The Resolutions were then read and agreed to.

AFFAIRS OF INDIA.
Mr. Paullmoved that an order of the house, of the 27th of Jan. last, for the production of certain papers relative to the management of Affairs in India, be read; which being done, the hon. member stated, that upwards of 9 months ago, he had moved for certain papers, which he intended to make the foundation of charges against the marquis Wellesley; on the 27th of Jan. last, he had moved for other papers of a similar nature; and on the 1st Feb. an hon. member (Mr. Wallace) had moved for certain other papers, with a view of vindicating the noble marquis from the charges which he (Mr. Paull) intended to bring against him. Without imputing it as any blame to the present ministers, he had to state it as a matter of complaint, that though the papers which he had moved for had been ordered so long previous to the others, yet that those papers which formed the noble marquis's defence, were in the bands of the members of the house, while those which he had moved for, and which formed the ground of charge against the noble marquis were, in a great measure, not yet on the table of time house. He therefore moved, "that returns of the papers contained in the order of the 27th Jan. be made forthwith."
Mr. Wallacesaid, he had repeatedly stated to the hon. gent. the reason why these papers had not been before produced. At the time the changes in administration were likely to take place, and that, of course,

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there was to be a great alteration in the board of controul, the gentlemen who composed that board thought it better to leave the papers, collected as they were, for the inspection of those who were to succeed them in office, and to allow them to exercise their discretion on them. With respect to the papers for the defence, which were produced before the others, he had only to state that they were collected, and ready for printing, at the time they were moved for, and were, of course, instantly laid before the house.
Mr. Foxthought, that if the papers for the defence were produced, and the others kept back, the matter should be explained.
Mr. Hiley Addingtonsaid, that the papers with respect to Oude, were so voluminous, amounting to 5 or 6 folio volumes, that though they were left ready by the former Board of Controul, yet a considerable time was necessarily consumed by the present board in examining into them, to ascertain whether they could with propriety be laid before the house.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that towards the close of the last session, when these papers were moved for, there was no backwardness, on the part of the board, to bring them forward; but they were so voluminous, that it was impossible it could be done in the course of that session. When, at the commencement of this session, affairs took a different turn, he was not ashamed to say, that, in consequence of the changes which were about to take place in the administration, be, and those who then acted with him, left it to their successors to examine into these papers, and consider of the propriety of granting them or not.
Mr. Creeveysaid, the papers would be made out as soon as they possibly could.
Mr. Kerrreprobated the idea of gentlemen moving for papers of such magnitude, which were useless, inasmuch as few gentlemen read them. He reprobated the practice of publishing papers relative to the affairs of India, under pretence of criminating the marquis Wellesley, as it disclosed to the enemy much information which might hereafter prove mischievous to our India possessions.—The question was then put, and the return ordered to be made forthwith.
Mr. Paullthen rose and said:—Sir; I shall trespass very shortly on the patience of the house, and I shall abstain, as much as possible, from any mention of the noble marquis, who is the object of my accusation: but,
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sir, if I abstain, from applying the terms I think the conduct of that noble lord towards the nabob of Surat merits, it will proceed from no dread of the violence and asperity of a noble lord under me (Temple), who is so ready on every occasion, to extend the broad shield of his protection, and that of his connections, to the character of the late governor-general of India.—Before I proceed to lay the grounds for the charge I have given notice of, I must detain the house one moment, and call their attention to the grounds of charge already on your table, which will show, that the papers I am this night to move for are most essential, not only to establish the oppression and injustice towards the nabob of Surat, but to prove a leading feature in the system which lord Wellesley acted upon from the hour of his arrival, until, by his removal, he was prevented from further mischief, from further acts of injustice and oppression.— There are now, sir, the grounds of four charges against that noble lord before the house; the dethroning of the nabob of the Carnatic, the seizure of Oude, the illegal appointment of Mr. Wellesley, and that relating to the war and peace with the rajah of Bhurtpore. The first was brought forward by a right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) who is not now in the house, but who stands pledged to the house and the country to proceed in the enquiry. His character is so high, his acquaintance with this subject so extensive, and the part he has taken in the investigation of Indian offences so well known, so honourable and so conspicuous, that it would he presumptuous in me to bring them to the recollection of the house. I shall not anticipate the contents of the Oude papers, or say any thing more as to the appointment of the hon. Mr. Wellesley, than that the declared, decided opinion of the Directors is on my side, both as to the illegality and the expediency of the appointment; nor would I now revert to the conduct of the war against the rajah of Bhurtpore and the peace with that prince, but to say, that, let his conduct be proved to have been ever so treacherous, ever so abandoned, ever so perjured, I retract not a tittle of my accusation against lord Wellesley, for that war and for that peace. —By the papers that are before the house, the dethronement of the heir of the house of the ancient and illustrious princes of the Carnatic is defended, on the score of the treasons committed by their allies of

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the English nation; the seizure of Oude and the appointment of Mr. Wellesley in consequence of the expediency of the measures, and the war in Bhurtpore by its justice, and the peace, as a boon from the humanity of the late governor-general.—If the papers are granted this night that I shall move for, they will contain the proofs of the unjust assumption of the rights and revenues of a high and respectable prince, the representative of many sovereigns, the faithful unsuspected ally of the English nation, against whom treason nor rebellion, nor treachery, nor the stale plea of expediency, can be urged in vindication of the acts.—I shall allude, sir, to nothing that has fallen from any hon. or right hon. gent. in this house, on any former occasions; but, sir, I must say and state to this house, that declarations are abroad, and in this house, that have excited serious alarms, dismay, sorrow, and I would almost say despair, in the minds of every true friend to liberty, of every friend to justice. It is said, sir, that his majesty's ministers are to set their faces against retrospects of every kind as to India; this, sir, I never can credit: but should even that be the case, whilst I must deeply regret the circumstance as being fatal to the ends of justice, yet still I shall proceed, in a cause which has lost me many powerful friends, made me many powerful enemies; a cause in fact in which I have lost every thing except my consistency and my integrity. My object is retrospect, and again to show to bleeding irritated India and to Europe, whose eyes are fixed on our decision, that if offences have been committed in India, that they will not pass unpunished. For what, sir, I ask, was the emaciated worn out Mr. Hastings brought to the bar of the house of lords? Was it, sir, to inflict a punishment on that gent. worn out by a 33 years residence in a tropical climate? That certainly, sir, was one object, but trifling and contemptible, compared to the other grand objects that the illustrious characters had in view who managed that impeachment. They, sir, proclaimed aloud that their object was example; that their object was, to warn all future Indian governors from injustice, from oppression, from aggrandizement at the expence of British faith and honour; they were to hold out to the latest posterity an example, that no talents however great, no character however amiable in some respects, would shelter the oppressors of the weak and the
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invaders of the defenceless. In consequence of such principles, was Mr. Hastings brought to a trial.—Exclusive of the acts in your statute books, the impeachment of Mr. Hastings formed a new system for Indian government; that impeachment, sir, was a solemn declaration of the opinions of the representatives of this nation; and on that system, the ever-to-be-lamented lord Cornwallis acted; he scorned to enrich himself or his employers, at the expence of British faith and honour; and whilst be lay expiring at Ghauziepore, he could say with truth, that the prince or the peasant of Hindostan, from him never received injustice; for his acts, no Indian had ever cause to put on mourning. His worthy and hon. successor, lord Teignmouth, followed the same system: but, sir, with these noblemen your system ended; and what system was adopted by a nobleman who was a member of this house when the impeachment was voted, I shall not attempt at present to describe; suffice it to say, the Carnatic has been seized, Oude divided, Furruskabad usurped, Surat invaded; Bundichund, Rohillehund have exchanged their masters; the half of the Marhatta empire was added to the English possessions; in short, from Cape Comorin across to the Bay of Cambay, from the Bay of Cambay to Balasore roads, from Balasore roads to the frontiers of Tartary, hardly a spot is to be seen on the map of India, that does not bear the bloody characteristic mark of the East-India company; and still no retrospect, it is said, is to be had, as to the causes of the fatal events which we so much deplore.—If such, sir, is to be the decision of this house, it is only for me to how with deference and respect to that decision; but if hope is to be conveyed to India, and if a chance of prosperity can be entertained, I hope the house will grant the papers I have this night moved for; and if they constitute crime, that this house will show to India and Europe, that the same principles that induced the decision in the case of Mr. Hastings, still survive in the British house of commons. I shall conclude, sir, with moving, "That there be laid before this house; 1. Copies of all letters and enclosures between the late gov. gen. marquis. Wellesley and the Bombay govt., relative to the privileges of the East-India company in the city of Surat, previous to the assumption of the rights and revenues of a prince called the nabob of Surat, from 1798 to the conclu-

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sion of a treaty with that prince in 1800.—2. Copies of the original draft or drafts of treaties forwarded from Bengal to the hon. J. Duncan, governor of Bombay, to be entered into by the nabob of Surat; with the instructions for carrying the same into effect.—3. Copy of the Treaty between the company of the nabob of Surat in 1800.—4. Copy of the correspondence between the governor of Bombay and the chief or resident at Surat, relating to the assumption of Surat.—5. Copy of the minutes of conference between the governor of Bombay and the nabob of Surat, his buckshee (a minister of state) or other of his highness's officers or relations during the negotiation.—6. A Return of the Troops doing duty in the castle of Surat, with the distribution of the several guards in Jan. 1800.—7. Copies of orders for the embarkation of troops from Bombay to Surat, from Jan. 1800, until the conclusion of the treaty; and of all orders from the commanding officers at Bombay to the officers commanding at Surat during the same period.—8. Return of the Troops doing duty in the castle and town of Surat, with their distribution of the several guards, &c. during, the, negotiation of the treaty."
Lord Temple,while he protested against such voluminous productions without any specific reason being assigned, declared, that on the part of his noble friend the marquis Wellesley, he courted the enquiry. In the present instance, the papers were moved for, merely for the purpose of fishing out a charge against his noble friend. He was, however, anxious that the papers should be brought forward, and that the marquis Wellesley's conduct should be investigated; indeed, he conceived, that it would now be doing no more than justice to that noble lord. With regard to Surat, he would state how that place was particularly circumstanced. Previous to 1753, the nabobship of Surat had been, for many years, in the possession of one family. In 1759, a treaty was made with the then nabob, by which the castle and fleet of Surat were put into the possession of the English; and in 1800, the marquis Wellesley entered into a treaty with the nabob, by which the latter was allowed greater privileges, and a greater extent of territory, than he had had for a considerable time before, together with a yearly stipend of a lac of rupees. The conduct of the marquis with respect to Surat would be found irreproachable.—His lordship then read as part of his speech, a reso-
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lution of thanks by the Court of directors to marquis Wellesley for the very service which was the subject of the present motion. He concluded by saying, that if the hon. mover had any regard for, and wished to serve and oblige, marquis Wellesley, he would advise him to pursue his enquiry; and, if he had any regard for himself, he would advise him to put his motions in his pocket.
Mr. Hiley Addingtonobserved, that when it was said by him or his noble friend, that they did not mean to oppose the production of the papers, it was not to be understood that they meant more than such papers as were proper to be laid before the house. He then adverted to the transactions concerning Surat, and concluded by informing the house, that when these papers were produced, it would be necessary to bring forward a great many more, the printing of which would take up much time.
Lord Folkestonethought there was sufficient ground laid for the motion. It0 appeared from the statement of the noble lord, that the noble marquis had given something to this prince. If he had done so gratuitously, what right had he to assume such a power to himself? If lie gave this to the prince of Surat, he must have taken it from some person else.
Sir Theophilus Metcalfe rose,and said:— As the noble lord and my right hon. friend have correctly stated the relative situation between the company and the nabob of Surat, it will not be necessary to go over the same ground: I will therefore confine myself to pointing out how far the subject of the hon. gent's charge against the noble marquis is connected with Guickwar. And here it may be necessary to state, for the information of those gentlemen who have neither time nor inclination to look into Indian subjects, that the Guickwar is one of the Mahratta chiefs who hold a part of Guzzerat as a tributary to the Peishwa. In 1780, general Goddard, who commanded a Bengal detachment on the western side of India, conquered a part of Guzzerat; and placed Futty Sing, the head of the Guickwar family, in possession of the country, declaring him independent of the Poonah Durbar. Mr. Anderson was sent, in 1781, to conclude a peace with the Maharattas, and experienced some difficulty with the Madajee Scindia, about the proposed independency of Futty Sing; but it was at last settled, and the country ceded to him by gen. Goddard was guaranteed by the 8th article of the treaty of Sulbey, subject only to the peishcush, or

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quit-rent. On the death of Futty Sing, two brothers started as competitors; and on that occasion, Sir John Shore contended that the company had a right to interfere, and were bound to support the Guickwar, in consequence of the treaty of Sulbey. Gov.Duncan in 1800, having obtained from the nabob of Surat the sovereignty of that city for the India company, applied to the Guickwar to relinquish his claim of choute or tribute, and grant to the company 10 or 12 miles of territory round the city of Surat (to prevent the disputes winch had frequently occurred from contending parties); and which Crovindkow readily consented to, with warm professions for the English, and made no other terms for the cession than to request he might have a hundred Bombay sepoys as au honorary body guard. When this cession was made, it was thought prudent not to take possession of the country, as it might start a difficulty in the negociation then carrying on at Poonah by the governor-general. Govindkow dying, the eldest son took possession of the musnud. He was soon dethroned by his brother; who in a short time was displaced by the officers of the father, and the eldest son again appointed to the succession, with a minister to manage the affairs of the Guzzerat. At this period both parties courted the British power, and a voluntary offer was made to the Bombay government, to confirm the cession of territory and the relinquishment of choute which had been formerly made by the father. The consequence of these proceedings is, that the city of Surat, which contains upwards of 800,000 inhabitants, and had for many years been in a state of constant broils and disturbance, from the city being under the government of four parties, the Nabob, the English, the Peishwa, and the Guichwar, is now placed entirely under the servants of the India company, who preserve internal tranquillity, and the city is increasing fast in riches and population.—Now, sir, I beg leave to ask the house, whether in these transactions the slightest blame can be cast on the governor-general, who had little more to do than to approve or disapprove the measures of the Bombay government? What has been stated by the noble lord is perfectly true, that for upwards of 50 years the company have invariably interfered in the appointments of all the nabobs of Surat; and tile nabob set up in 1790, sat on the musnud for 10 years, without any approval from the mo-
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gul, and held his power entirely under the authority of the Bombay government; and, I can venture to assure the house, that if they peruse all the records of the India house, that they will not find any matter that can throw more light upon the subject of Surat, than the members present are now in possession of. The hon. gent. who stands forward-as the accuser of lord Wellesley, has now laid two charges upon the table, namely the business of Bhurtpore and of Surat; the house will judge how far they deserve the name of charges. What I complain of is, the extraordinary mode of proceeding in this attack. The hon. gent. was no sooner seated, than he gave notice of his intention to accuse the late governor-general of certain offences, and moved for papers respecting Oude; but, passing them by, he calls for papers of finance, to prove the company had violated an act of parliament. Finding this ground not tenable, he returns again to the marquis, in the manner the house has lately witnessed. The greatest enemy of lord Wellesley will admit his government was marked by many instances of zeal, energy, talent, and ability, which never were excelled in that part of the world, and I fear never will be equalled. To this I must add, that the breath of scandal never tainted his character with the slightest suspicion against the most in-corrupt honour and integrity. It is a fact known to all India, that he quitted the government with as clean hands as he took possession of it. Hard, very hard, is it upon such a character, after having for 6 or 7 years executed the arduous duties of the most consequential office a subject can be placed in, to the best of his judgement, with no other object in view than what he conceived would eventually turn out to the benefit of his employers, to the advantage of his country, and finally lead to the permanent peace and tranquillity of India; to find himself assailed on his arrival with such charges as have this day been dwelt on by the hon. member! Let not the house conclude, from what they have heard; that no enquiry has been made into the conduct of the late governor-general. The board of commissioners, and the court of directors, have not been neglectful of this part of their duty. Every transaction of the government-general has been minutely scrutinized and investigated. If the noble lord who was lately at the head of the board, was in his place, I should with confidence appeal to him, whether in the course of the

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voluminous dispatches sent to India, there appeared any favour, partiality, or affection? The executive body of the India company, where the law has placed the power and right to censure or approve, have with firmness expressed their sentiments on every measure that did not meet their approbation; now, sir, under these circumstances, I cannot bring myself to believe, that if there were any grounds for further enquiry, either with a view to a civil suit or criminal prosecution, the king's ministers, or the court of directors, would have left so important a business to the honourable gentleman who has undertaken the task. But, supposing the late administration had felt a desire to screen lord Wellesley; is it likely that the new administration will follow their example, if, when they have time to look over the records, they see cause for further proceedings? And in that case, an enquiry will come forward with that weight of character which belongs to them, and under the influence of official situation: and in such an event there will not be a dissenting voice to any investigation they may think proper to propose to parliament. With respect to the production of the papers moved for, I shall only say, that they ought to be carefully examined before they are produced to the public eye.
Mr. Hiley Addingtonstated in explanation, that a considerable portion of the contents of the papers, if the motion should be carried, ought to be withheld, and suggested the propriety of giving the board of controul a discretionary power to that effect.
Dr. Laurencesaid, he felt disposed to give every credit to marquis Wellesley for the energy with which he had conducted his Indian administration; but he could not help feeling also, and the impression was augmented by the grounds upon which the production of papers was opposed, that there was such a presumption of delinquency made out, as would justify him in voting for the motion.
Mr. Secretary Foxthought himself called on to notice in a few words what had fallen from the noble baronet. If the hon. baronet meant that he had come into office without any improper desire to serve either one or other party, he was correct. If he were called on to state, taking the system pursued by the two noble marquisses, Wellesley and Cornwallis, as general principles, which of the two he liked best? he should say, the latter, as being most agreeable to the principles laid down by this house, and
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most to the credit and benefit of the East India company. If again he were asked as to his opinion of the delinquency of marquis Wellesley, he should say he had none. He had not vet formed it, and if he had, this was not the time to declare it. When the time came, he should act as the case seemed to require. The right hon. secretary defied any one to prove, that he had either in or out of parliament, either directly or indirectly, given encouragement to the hon. gent. (Mr. Paull) to proceed in his present endeavours to obtain a parliamentary enquiry: he took some share of blame to himself for having, of late years, paid too little attention to India affairs. With regard to enquiries, tending to crimination, he thought it, generally speaking, better for the ministry to abstain from interfering, and to leave the task to other members of the house. He thought such questions were best discussed when no weight was lent to the accusation, except what it derived from the individual who preferred it, and from the cause of truth.
Mr. Huddlestone,after what had fallen from an hon. baronet in the course of this debate, thought it proper to state, that the court of directors of the East-India company had no objection to the production of any papers that might be thought necessary to an enquiry into the late proceedings in India, and that they did not apprehend any ill consequences from the publication of the papers moved for. He was induced to say this, lest it should be supposed, that what had been so strongly expressed by the hon. baronet, respecting marquis Wellesley, were the sentiments of the directors, with respect to the administration of that nobleman.
Sir T. Metcalfesaid, he had not been delivering his opinion in the house as a director of the East-India company, but exercising his judgment as a private member of parliament.
Mr. Robert Thorntonsaid, that from the manner in which the hon. baronet had expressed himself, he might well be construed to be delivering a more extended opinion than his own. He had, however, stood alone in the court of directors, as the panegyrist of marquis Wellesley, whose conduct the directors disapproved, and considered extremely detrimental to the interests of the company. The circumstance of the court having been obliged to send out another noble marquis, to remedy the inju-

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rious measures of his predecessor, was a sufficient circumstance to prove the necessity of an enquiry. There were several papers connected with the late Indian administration, which ought to he before the house, and which the East-India company would be very happy to see investigated; particularly one, to which he could not at present give a proper title, but it was expressive of the opinion of the court of directors on the government of India. It was intended to have sent out this paper to which he alluded, but its transmission had been prevented by high authority. After the suspicions which were abroad, the house was bound to look the thing in the face, and the country required it.
Mr. Paullreplied at considerable length to the different speakers, and called loudly on the house to notice the protection extended to save lord Wellesley by a part of the administration, (he alluded principally to lord Temple and Mr. H. Addington). He hoped, he said, the house would notice it, the public he was sure would, and the manner he had been deserted by those, who had taken a part formerly to bring this nobleman to justice. But his principal reply was directed to the hon. bart. (sir T. Metcalfe) who had advised him (Mr. Paull) to abandon the prosecution. He stated that not only would he proceed, but that it was known to the right hon. secretary (Mr. Fox) that he had still two charges to prefer, of a most serious nature, against lord Wellesley for the seizure of Furrukabad, and for profuse, wasteful, unauthorized expenditure of the revenues committed to his charge, and for applying to his own use large sums of the public money, contrary to the act of parliament limiting the allowances of the governor-general to 25,000 l. per annum, and to the use of the houses of the company abroad. That the single article of "Durbar charges" in the time of extreme distress for money, and all the departments of the service in arrear, exceeded by 100,000 l. per annum, the most profuse expenditure of any of his predecessors. That the sum squandered away unnecessarily would he found on investigation to exceed two millions of pounds sterling. The hon. gent. concluded by saying, that he had hoped many generous minds would have been found, to have shared with him the toils of bringing to justice this nobleman, so highly protected, and that he did not yet despair, after seeing what two directors had stated this evening. However,
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if left with but one voice more in the house, he would record on the journals of parliament his sense of the conduct of marquis Wellesley; and posterity would see the charges, and enquire into the causes that had prevented his being brought to punishment.
Mr. Wellesley Pole.Does the hon. gent. mean to say, that the noble marquis has misapplied the public money for his own advantage?
Mr. PaullI mean to say that be expended large sums of money, contrary to the act of parliament, for his own convenience, his own show, and splendour.
Mr. W. Polefelt it necessary to ask the hon. gent. again, whether he meant to state that the noble marquis had diverted the public money to his own private purposes and advantage?
Mr. W. Paullrepeated, that his charge was, that the public money was expended for purposes of convenience, splendour, and show.
Mr. W. PoleDoes the hon. gent. mean to bring forward a charge of peculation? He has stated his intention of making a new charge, and I expect a distinct explanation. This is the first time that the breath of calumny has dared so to accuse marquis Wellesley.
Mr. Paulldid not mean to accuse the noble marquis of peculation, but repeated his charge, that he had applied the public money for his own convenience, splendour, and show.
Mr. W. PoleI must understand, then, that the hon. gent. means to say, that the noble marquis has misapplied the public money for public purposes. I can easily conceive that he may mean to say, that too much money has been expended on the palace of Calcutta, or that the guard had beets unnecessarily increased; but I still wish to know, whether he means to say that marquis Wellesley has used the public money for his. own private advantage? The house will feel the justice of my request of a distinct answer to this question.
Mr. PaullI mean distinctly to charge marquis Wellesley with wasteful, profuse, unauthorized, extravagant expenditure of the public money, and with misapplication of the same to purposes contrary to law.
The Speakerthen put the question on the several motions, for the production of papers, as made by the hon. mover in the early stage of the debate; when
Mr. H. Addingtonproposed as an amendment, that the words, "so far as these va-

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rious documents may be disclosed, without prejudice to the public service," might be added to the original motion.
Mr. Paullthought the object of this amendment, by withholding what the right hon. gent. might chose to consider state secrets, would be a great impediment to obtaining necessary information.
Mr. Wilberforcesaid, he felt jealous of the system of secrecy which was creeping into practice; he hoped this amendment would not be considered as a precedent, as there was no calculating upon the extent of the mischief that might arise from the practice of adding amendments oft his kind.
Mr. H. Addingtonreplied, that what it was wished to withhold, merely related to certain papers respecting the Indian coast, not relevant to the point intended to be elucidated.—The question as amended was then put and carried.

MINUTES.
The marquis of Blandfordwas introduced, agreeably to his new creation of baron Wormleighton, with the usual formalities, sworn, and took his seat. His lordship's supporters were, the earl of Galloway and lord Grenville.—The Marine Mutiny, the Irish Malt Duty Regulation, the Greenland Ships Quota, and the Corn Exportation bills, were severally read a 3d time and passed.

WOOLLEN MANUFACTURE SUSPENSION BILL.
Earl Spencermoved the second reading of the Woollen Manufacturers' bill. The noble secretary of state prefaced his motion by adverting to the importance of the subject of which the measure now proposed made a part; the necessity that existed for the bill's passing into a law, as the existing suspension bill would shortly expire; it was that alone which induced the bringing forward the present bill, which went to continue the suspension bill for a year longer. In the interval, the general subject, he hoped would, the proceedings being already in train in another house,
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be thoroughly investigated, and such steps taken in the present session, as would be attended with beneficial effects. In the mean time, under the circumstances of the case, their lordships must be aware of the necessity for the passing of the bill, and on that ground he moved the second reading of the bill.
Lord Aucklandsaid a few words generally in support of what had fallen from the noble secretary of state; and, in addition, adverted to some proceedings which had taken place upon the subject, in the committee of the privy council, appointed for the consideration of such topics.
Lord Grenvillefollowed on the same side. He seemed adverse to the principle of bills of the kind, but in the interval of the general subject of the woollen manufacture being thoroughly investigated, and a general law framed for remedying the evil complained of, a measure of the kind, merely to avert a greater evil, was deemed necessary; and nothing but the peculiar circumstances of the case, could induce him to support the bill.—The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be printed.
[DISCOVERY OF TRUTH BILL.] The order of the day, for their lordships going into a committee on the bill for the more effectual discovery of Truth from Witnesses, being read,
Earl Stanhope rose,and observed, that an opinion had been suggested to him, and in which he most cordially agreed, that the best way would be to refer the bill in question to the consideration of the judges, with instructions to frame it, or to draw up another bill, so as to answer its purpose. He had been told, on a former night, that his bill was in a crude state; now, that was what he should like to debate, either in a committee, or out of a committee; on that head, however, he thought he had gained a victory over a noble and learned lord then absent. On the whole, he thought it was best to submit the present bill to the judges, as a more important subject than that to which it referred, could not exist; it was the more necessary, because their lordships had, to a bill very properly introduced by his noble friend on the woolsack, tacked certain provisions, suggested by another noble and learned lord, which, instead of improving the bill, only rendered it obscure and unintelligible, and which in the pending stage of the bill, ought to be rejected, in order to reduce it to its original clearness. In the view, and for

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the purposes he had stated, the noble earl moved to adjourn the committee on the bill till this day three weeks.
Lord Ellenboroughobserved, that he assented to the proposed adjournment of the consideration of the bill, with the hope that the bill, as presented by the noble earl, whether a crude bill or not, would, in that interval, receive that due and mature consideration, which one of its import evidently required. As the bill now stood, he was one of those who thought, that were such a law enacted, it would tend to let out truth in one instance, and close the door on it afterwards; it would, therefore, be productive of great mischief. He hoped the noble earl, in the interval proposed, would better consider the subject, and present it in quite another form; and, farther, that when it should come to be considered, the point whether the lords spiritual or temporal should have the priority in the bill, would form no part of the discussion.