Sitting of 12 March 1806

MINUTES.
New writs were ordered for the borough of Lyme Regis, in the room of the hon. T. Fane, who had accepted the Chiltern hundreds; and also for the borough of Queenborough, in the room of G. P. Moore, esq. who had accepted the office of steward of the manor of East Hendred.—Mr. Holford brought up the report of the committee to whom the petition of the Philanthropic Society, for the education of the children of felons, was referred. In pursuance of the report, he moved for, and obtained leave to bring in, a bill for the better government and regulation of that society.—Mr. W. Dundas moved for, and obtained leave to bring in, a bill, for the further continuance of an act which was on the point of expiring, for the securing a more expeditious payment of creditors in Scotland.—The Irish Clergy Residence bill passed through the committee.—The bill for Allowing the Importation of Wool from the British colonies in America, was read a second time.—On the motion of general Tarleton, the ordnance estimates, presented by Mr. Calcraft, were ordered to be printed for the use of the members.—Mr. Paull moved for, a Copy of a Protest, dated in 1803, from the then chairman of the court of directors, against the measures pursued in Oude, and which led to the treaty of 1801, and which treaty was approved of by the secret committee, as appears from their minute of the 19th of Nov. now before the house, Ordered.

WOOLLEN MANUFACTURE SUSPENSION BILL.
On the motion of lord Temple, the house went into a committee on this bill.
Mr. P. Mooresaid, he would not object to suspend the operation of the existing laws respecting the woollen manufacturers, against those violations which had been hitherto made, but he must object to the continuing this suspension still farther, he considered that the violators of the law were comparatively few, and that the trespassers and intruders bore but a small proportion to the number of those engaged in the trade. In opposing them, he therefore took the side that he always wished to take, that of the many against the few. Those who proposed the bill, and the many country members who were favourable to it, he considered were rather taking the part of the few against the many. He therefore should propose a clause, "That this bill should only operate to prevent prosecutions from those violations of the existing laws which had already taken place, but should not prevent prosecutions for violations which might be committed hereafter."
Mr. H. Lascellessaid, that the reason why so many gentlemen supported the bill was, that it had become evident in the course of the trade, that the principles of many of those very old acts of parliament, would be at present inapplicable, and highly injurious to the woollen manufacture. He did not wish absolutely to decide upon the policy of those old acts, but as it was at present very doubtful, he thought it would be the best way for the house to go into a committee, when they would be able to obtain the fullest information on the subject.
Mr. Wilberforcethought that the hon. gent. (Mr. Moore) had rather gone upon general principles, or those which carried with them a show of popularity. He had spoken of the interests of the many, as opposed to those of the few. For his part, he was convinced that the interests of commerce and of trade, were the interests both of the many and of the few. The wages of the manufacturers were raised when the trade went well. The hon. gent. however, appeared to him to be mistaken in his distinction about the many and the few, for the fact was, that there were very many who carried on manufactures in their own houses and in a domestic way, which he considered was better both for trade and for the morals of those engaged in it, than

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that way of carrying on manufactures where many journeymen are employed by a few masters in large manufactories. He declared that he had no other wish upon the subject, than that a business of such importance should be fully considered, and that the best resolution might be taken which the most mature deliberation could give. He therefore wished that the bill should be committed early in the session, and was sure that the persons engaged in the trade would have full confidence in the care and attention of their representatives to their true interests.
Mr. Brookehoped that no impediment would be thrown in the way of the final settlement of this business, which had been now two years before the house. His object was to promote the interests of all parties. He hoped the hon. gent. would not insist on his clause.
Lord Templesaid, that he knew the wish of his majesty's ministers upon this subject was, to relieve the manufacturers from any improper restraint. Whether the restraints imposed upon them by those old acts of parliament might be taken away or not, was a matter that could not be decided without the most serious consideration, and the best information that could be had. It was, because he was not prepared to decide, that he could not agree to the clause proposed. Such a clause would be absolutely deciding the question.
Mr. P. Mooreexplained, that when he spoke of the many and the few, he considered very much that numerous class of manufacturers, whose petition he presented, and who had been waiting for years: he meant the petition of the employed against the employers. The first class were anxious for the decision of the house; the latter class, as he thought, was not so desirous of it. He hoped that the discussion, and the adoption of the clause he had proposed, would bring them to agree to reasonable terms with those in their employment.
Mr. Wilberforcesaid, that, by this explanation, the suspicion he had entertained was realized; that it was for another description of men than those who were the objects of this bill, that the hon. gent. felt so warmly.—The clause was then rejected, and lord Temple gave notice, that he should on Friday next move for a committee to consider the state of the woollen manufacture.

ELECTION TREATING BILL.
Mr. Tierneybrought up a bill to explain and render more effectual an act, passed in the 7th of William III. for preventing charge and expense in Elections of Members to serve in Parliament. The bill was read a first time, and ordered to be printed. The right hon, gent. then said, that he should move for its being read a second time on Friday se'nnight, unless gentlemen wished for longer time to consider it.
Mr. Hurstwished that a longer day should be named. As for himself, he approved entirely of the principles of the bill, and of almost all the observations made by the hon. member in proposing it; but as it was a bill that went to make a material change in the old established laws, and as several gentlemen might entertain doubts, which a fuller consideration might remove, he thought it would be better to allow a longer tune to consider it.
Mr. Rosedid not consider that the bill made any alteration in old established laws; he thought it would be only a declaration of what was actually the existing law.—The question was then put, and the bill was ordered to be read a second time on Friday se'nnight.

MINUTES.
Lord Walsinghampresented the report of the committee appointed to search for precedents of the proceedings of the house in cases of Impeachment; which was ordered to be printed. A short conversation ensued between lords Auckland and Eldon, respecting the additional article of Impeachment against lord Melville, as to the manner in which that noble lord should be called upon to answer; which ended in an order to summon their lordships for to-morrow, in order to take the same into consideration.

WITNESSES' LIABILITY BILL.
Lord Walsinghamreported the Declaratory bill, the amendments made in winch were agreed to.
Lord Eldon Lord Eldon, in order to save the exceptions which existed to the general rule laid down in the bill, proposed a proviso, the first part of which enacts, that the court shall not repel an objection made by a witness to answer, where such objection is made specially and on specific grounds stated, but shall decide on such objection according to the law as it appears to them. It is lastly enacted, that a witness shall not be compellable to answer any question
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which he could not be compelled to answer as a defendant, in a court of equity, on a bill being filed against him.
Earl Stanhopeobjected to this proviso, which, he said, instead of declaring the law, left it to the judges of each court to decide what was law, thereby, instead of removing doubts, rendering those doubts more doubtful. He also considered the clause to be unconstitutional, in as much as it sent the judges of the courts of common law to the courts of equity to learn by what law they were to decide, a system which met his marked condemnation.
The Lord Chancellordefended the clause to which he could not see the slightest objection. It was perfectly clear, from the opinions of the judges, that there were exceptions to the general rule, which it was necessary to provide against. With respect to courts of equity, the law of evidence was the same in those courts as in the courts of law, and therefore the objection upon this head fell to the ground, as the clause merely directed in fact that the laws of evidence should be resorted to. Although somewhat irregular in referring to a bill of the noble earl's (Stanhope) now on the table, on this subject, he was happy to concur with him in one part, where, notwithstanding his objection yesterday, he had inserted the words "the lords spiritual and temporal." The lords spiritual were the ministers of God and of religion, and it being thought fit that they should take a part in our temporal concerns, it was also fit that they should have the precedence.
Earl Stanhopesaid he had inserted the words "the lords temporal and spiritual," but that the printer had altered them.
Lord Hollandnotwithstanding what had been said by his noble and learned friend on the woolsack, could not agree in the propriety of referring the judges of the courts of common law to courts of equity, to learn the law of evidence. He had too much veneration for the common law of the country to sanction such a proceeding.
Lord Eldoncontended that the seven judges who had answered the questions in the affirmative having all done so with a variety of exceptions, it would be, in fact, acting contrary to that opinion if a law were passed enacting a general rule on the subject without any exception, and he had no hesitation in saying, that without some such clause as that he had proposed, the Declaratory Bill would be the greatest nuisance that ever existed; no man's pro

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perty would then be safe, as he might be compelled to answer questions which might divest him of all title to his estates. As to courts of equity, their lordships would recollect that the judges who had answered the questions in the affirmative, had all drawn from thence the grounds of those opinions.—The clause was received and added to the bill.
Earl Stanhopestill considering his bill for the more effectual Discovery of Truth from Witnesses to be necessary, moved its second reading, observing, however, that he should move in the committee to alter the preamble, and make it a bill for the better protection of witnesses. The object of the bill, he stated, was to prevent the evidence given by witnesses from being afterwards made use of against themselves.—The bill was read a second time, and committed for Friday.