Sitting of 5 March 1806

MINUTES.
Mr. Hutchinsonpresented a petition from the city of Cork, praying for leave to bring in a bill to enable the inhabitants to erect a new gaol in Cork. Leave granted.—Mr. Fordyce presented tile third report from the surveyor-general of the land revenues, which, on the motion, of Mr. Vansittart, was ordered to be printed.—Mr. Allnutt, from the commissioners of the Thames navigation, presented, an Abstract of an Account of all money received and disbursed by the commissioners appointed for improving and completing the navigation of the rivers Thames and Isis in the year 1805.—The Marine Mutiny bill was reported, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.—Lord Temple brought in the bill for allowing the exportation of corn and other articles for the use of his majesty's foreign garrisons; which was read a first time.—On the motion of the secretary at war, the Foreign Soldiers' bill went through a committee. The report was ordered to be received tomorrow.

LORD COLLING WOOD'S ANNUITY BILL.
Lord Henry Pettymoved, that the house should resolve itself into a committee, to consider the circumstances of lord Coilingwood's family.—On the question being put,
Mr. Bastardsaid, before the house went into the committee, he wished to address a few words, by way of question, to the noble lord. He understood lady Collingwood, in case of her surviving her lord, was to have the annuity continued to her for her life. He thought it very right it should be so; but, what he wished to know, was, whether any provision was intended to be made for the unfortunate widows of captains of men of war, whose husbands had fallen gallantly defending their country in the glorious battle of Trafalgar? Captain Duff had so fallen, and had left behind him a disconsolate widow to mourn his loss, and, at the same time, the loss of her subsistance, for he understood she was very ill provided for; capt. Cooke had also fallen on the same glorious occasion, and had left a widow in a similar predicament. He wished, therefore, to know, whether it were intended any provision should be made for those unfortutunate ladies? and he hoped he should not be deemed troublesome by the noble lord in asking the question.
Lord Henry Pettyexpressed his partci

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pation in the feeling so properly expressed by the hon. member; but he believed it was not customary on such occasions to make any particular provision for the widows of naval captains. He understood, however, that some application had been made on behalf of those ladies for his majesty's bounty, which was at present under the royal consideration, but he was not yet prepared to communicate the result.—The house then went into a committee: in which the noble lord moved a resolution, that in the event of the decease of lord Collingwood, the sum of 1000 l. a year should, from the tune of his decease, be settled on lady Collingwood for her life; and, after her decease, if the daughters of lord Collingwood be living, the same annual sum to be settled on them, to commence from the day of lady Collingwood's decease.—The house resumed, and the report was ordered to be received tomorrow.

AFFAIRS OF INDIA.
Mr. Paullgave notice of a motion for Friday, for the production of three or four more papers to lay the grounds of an additional charge against lord Wellesley.
Lord Templeasked whether it was the intention of the hon. gent. to bring forward on Friday the additional charge he alluded to, or to move only for papers?
Mr. Paullreplied, that he meant to move for the papers, and they would form all the documents he thought necessary upon this subject. If they should be produced in due time, he gave notice that he would in the course of the first week after the recess bring forward his accusations against lord Wellesley.
Mr. H. Addingtonbegged the hon. gent. to describe the nature of the papers to which his intended motion would refer?
Mr. Paullsaid that there was a prince in India called the Rajah of Bhurtpore, with respect to whom the hon. member was proceeding to make some remarks, when he was called to order by the Speaker, who directed the hon. gent. to confine himself to the answer required of him. The hon. gent. then stated, that the papers he meant to move for related to the conduct of lord Wellesley towards the Rajah of Bhurtpore.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
The Secretary at Warpresented the army estimates, which the right hon. gent. stated to be formed on the same scale precisely with those for 3 months, which had been voted on the
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proposition of his predecessor. The estimates which he had now the honour to present, were only for two months, and he hoped that long before the expiration of that time. his majesty's ministers would have fully matured, and parliament finally adopted, a plan for the permanent military establishment of the year, a plan which, he trusted, would at the same time that it augmented and strengthened our military force reduce the expence of our military department.—Ordered to lie on the table, and the right hon. gent. gave notice, that he would on Friday move the estimates in the Committee of Supply.
Lord Castlereaghtook occasion to state, that the motion of the late ministers for proposing the estimates for only three months, was in order to leave their successors completely unfettered. He was enabled to say, that were it not for that consideration, the late administration was fully purposed at the time to bring forward a plan for the permanent military establishment of the year.

WOOL EXPORTATION BILL.
Lord Templebrought up a bill to permit the exportation of wool, from the British plantations in America, to the united kingdom. On the motion for its first reading,
Mr. Harrisonentertained objections to this measure, which he conceived likely to injure the landed interest, but he would reserve the full statement of these objections to a future stage. In the mean time he hoped that some regulations would be introduced into it, that might render it less exceptionable. It struck him, that if the unlimited importation of wool were permitted, the effect would be to discourage the growth of that article at home, by placing the landed interest at the discretion of the manufacturers, who would, upon a surplus in consequence of the importation, be at liberty to offer any price they pleased. The importation at present allowed, proceeded from a wish to obtain the fine wool of Spain to mix with our own. But we had no want of the coarse wool of America. Indeed he could not conceive any reason for this bill. We had no scarcity of wool whatever, and therefore the bill was, on the face of it, unnecessary, and he much feared its effects would be injurious.
Lord Templecalled to the recollection of the house, that the importation of wool from the united states of America was already permitted, and the only object of this bill was to grant to our own colonies the

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same advantage. It was his intention to propose, that the bill should be printed, and allow full time for its examination, in order that no alarm should arise from a misunderstanding of its provisions. If it should appear desirable to limit the continuance of the bill, he should offer no objection to such a proposal; and if; hereafter, it should be found disadvantageous in its operation, its repeal would naturally follow.
Mr. Harrisonrecommended every encouragement to the growth of wool, upon the same principle that the legislature encouraged the growth of corn. He advised the introduction of a clause into this bill, imposing a small duty on the wool imported, as the best means of ascertaining that which was very desirable, namely, the quantity of the importation.—The bill was then read a first time.

REPORT FROM IMPEACHMENT COMMITTEE RESPECTING MR. TROTTER.
Mr. Whitbreadreported from the committee, appointed to draw up articles of Impeachment against Henry lord viscount Melville; "that he was directed by the committee to acquaint the house, that Alexander Trotter, esq. late paymaster to Henry lord viscount Melville, whilst treasurer of his majesty's navy, having been examined by the said committee, did refuse to answer to what had been demanded of him by the said committee." The hon. gent. then moved,"That the entry in the journal of the house, of the 13th of April 1742, of the proceedings of this house, in relation to Mr. Nicholas Paxton, might be read:" And the same being read; the hon. gent. moved, "That the said Alexander Trotter, esq. be, for his said offence, taken into the custody of the serjeant at arms attending this house; and that Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant accordingly." [The speaker, in putting the question, substituted by mistake the name of Alexander Davison, for Alexander Trotter, which occasioned a general laugh.] On the question being put,
Sir W. Elfordrose and expressed his hope that the house would not adopt the proposition of the hon. member, and consent to commit Mr. Trotter for refusing to answer the questions alluded to, upon a fair consideration of the reasons which induced that refusal. When Mr. Trotter understood that he was to be examined before this committee, he very naturally considered the propriety of declining to answer any questions which might have
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the effect of criminating himself, or exposing himself to a civil suit. Accordingly upon questions being proposed, which appeared to Mr. Trotter to have that tendency, he had recourse to the advice of counsel, and this advice corresponded with that which was pronounced law by several of the Judges in another place. The majority of the Judges had, he was aware, declared the law to be otherwise. But still, doubts existed upon the question, viz. whether a witness was compellable to give such answer to any question as might subject himself to a civil action, and in consequence of these doubts it was understood that a declaratory law was deemed necessary, and was intended to be brought forward. Under these circumstances, considering the difference of opinion which prevailed upon the point which applied to this subject even among the Judges, and that it was not yet ascertained what the law was, but that on the contrary a declaratory law was in contemplation, which two of the most respectable law lords had very properly said would require the most mature deliberation, he trusted the house would not visit the proposed punishment upon the conduct of Mr. Trotter.—The hon. bart. then read the opinion of counsel, under which Mr. Trotter had acted. This opinion was signed by Mr. serjeant Shepherd and Mr. Alexander, and imported that a witness was not compellable to answer any question, the effect of which might be to subject him to a civil suit. With all these considerations in view, it struck his mind, and he hoped it would appear in the same light to the house, that, pending the progress of the bill which was now in the other house of parliament, and which was introduced by the hon. mover himself, it would not be more reasonable than just, that the committee should suspend their enquiry upon this part of the case. It would, indeed, he inconsistent with the grounds upon which that bill professed to rest, to take a different course; for that bill, as well as the act of indemnity from criminal prosecutions, obviously recognised the principle on which the conduct complained of in Trotter, was quite justifiable. From these considerations he must say, that to commit Mr. Trotter into custody would be an act of oppression. If the hon. mover would consent to have the enquiries of the committee suspended, so far as Mr. Trotter was concerned, until the bill before the other house should be passed

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into a law, the refusal of Mr. Trotter to answer any question put to him by the committee, could not be excused, and upon the enactment of such law, he believed, that Mr. Trotter would not be inclined to make any refusal.
Mr. Secretary Foxsaid, that if no bill of indemnity whatever had passed, or was passing through parliament, still it would be extremely wrong in the house to take the course recommended by the hon. bart., and refuse to sanction the conduct of its committee. Upon such an application as that under discussion, it was not for the house to consider whether Trotter was legally compellable to answer certain questions which might have been put to him by the committee. Now, it should be taken for granted, that the questions proposed to him were correct; otherwise the house had not a proper confidence in its committee. What was the case? Why, that upon the recommendation of this committee, a bill was brought in, to indemnify Trotter from any civil action that might arise out of his answers before them, although the opinion of many lawyers was, that he was compellable to answer questions of that tendency; and that opinion, which prevailed before the bill was introduced, was since strengthened by the declaration of a great majority of the Judges. How could the house then, upon a question so circumstanced, reconcile it to itself to delay the progress of this prosecution, in the manner the hon. bart. proposed? Such a proceeding would be, in fact, to withdraw their confidence from the committee, and to imply a suspicion that that confidence had been abused. Coupling the proposition of the hen. bart. for delay, with what had taken place last year, when, by a mere majority of one, the cause of justice had triumphed, the house could not be unaware of the object. But he trusted that the house would not sanction the disposition that was manifested to withhold from this committee the degree of confidence which had never been refused to any committee upon similar occasions.
Mr. Whitbreadobserved, that if the motion he had introduced at the instance of the committee, should not be agreed to, the house had better withdraw its confidence from that committee altogether. It was impossible for him, consistently with his duty, to state at present what passed in the committee, but at the same time he could say, that Mr. Trotter was treated,
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in the course of his examination, with the utmost possible indulgence. In the opinion of many, indeed, among whom he was one, that indulgence had been often pushed too far. He had been indemnified from all criminal prosecution, and it was proposed to indemnify him from all civil actions. He had frequently demurred to questions which, according to the declared opinion of eight of the Judges, he was legally compelled to answer, and yet time was given him deliberately to advise with counsel, &c. The hon. member disclaimed the intention of offering any thing with a view to extenuate or to apologize for the conduct of the committee. Nor did he mean to state precisely the questions which Mr. Trotter refused to answer, but he could state in substance, that they were of such a nature as, according to the law pronounced by the four dissentient Judges, he could not be screened from answering. The hon. member repeated, that if the motion before the house was not adopted, the committee would be placed in such a situation, that it would be better to withdraw the confidence of the house from them altogether, and to appoint another committee.
Sir W. Elforddisclaimed any intention, in the observations which he felt it his duty to submit, to impeach the integrity of, or weaken the confidence due to, the committee.—The motion was agreed to.
Mr. Whitbreadsaid, he should decline to go to the extent of the precedent which the house had heard read, and which committed the refractory witness to Newgate, &c. He should only move that the serjeant at arms shall attend Mr. Trotter before the committee, whenever they shall think proper to examine him.—Agreed to.

MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS.
Mr. Long roseand said, that seeing a right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) now in his place, he wished to ask him, at what time he intended to propose to the house his Plan, respecting the arrangements of the military establishment. He did not, he said, put this question, with a view to embarrass the government of which the right hon. gent. was now a member, but because he felt it was of high importance, that any alteration intended to be made should be known as soon as possible, since the longer such information was withheld, the greater embarrassment would arise to the service; as those exertions which might be made by gentlemen at this sea

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son, in different parts of the kingdom, could not be undertaken with the desirable effect, if they were to understand that new and material arrangements were to take place. He knew this to be particularly the case with respect to the militia in Ireland.—The right hon. gent. was proceeding, when
Dr. Laurence roseto order, and observed, that the hon. member, instead of propounding a short question irregularly across the house, was proceeding into a detail, which might lead to a disorderly debate, there being no regular question before the house.
Mr. Speakeragreed to the propriety of this observation.
Mr. Longprofessed that his object was to state the reasons which induced him to put a question, upon a subject, with regard to which he disclaimed any intention to produce inconvenience to the right hon. gent. to whom it was addressed, but to obtain some satisfactory information, as to arrangements, in the proposition of which, he trusted, that no delay would take place which could possibly be avoided.
Mr. Secretary Windhamsaid, he was very ready to give the right hon. gent. every satisfaction in his power, relative to the point alluded to. The right hon. gent. had, however, in asking the question, desired to know, when he meant to bring forward his Plan? He did not understand what he meant by the words, "his Plan." He had never mentioned any Plan to the house; nor had he ever heard, that any other member had done so for him. The business of the military establishment, for the present year, had been taken up by his majesty's ministers, immediately on their coming into office; and it had ever since engaged their most serious, minute, and continued, attention and consideration. They had, however, found it delicate, difficult, and highly important, and as such, had not been forward to say any thing of it to the house, till they were able to bring it, among themselves, to a state of sufficient maturity, and, whenever they should find it in such a state, both their duty and inclination would lead them to lay it before the house, as speedily as the nature and importance of it would possibly admit.
Mr. Canningobserved, that there stood a notice upon the votes of the house, given on the first day of the session by a right hon. gent. whom he did not now see
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in his place (Mr. Sheridan), for a motion to repeal the bill called. "the Additional Defence Act." He wished to know from the friends of that right hon. gent., in his absence, whether the repeal of that bill formed a part of the plan of military arrangement, because, if it were, it would be important the house should have a complete return of the number of men raised by its operation, in order to judge fairly of its effects; and, if not, that the exertions of gentlemen throughout the country, for carrying that bill into full effect, might not be damped by the apprehension of its intended repeal.
Mr. Windhamsaid, he had already declared his object to time house, so. far as he was yet prepared to explain himself on the subject of military arrangements. He had, however, no objection to answer the question of the right hon. gent. in substance, that in the plan of defence now in contemplation, that bill certainly would not have a place.

MINUTES.
In an appeal from the court of King's Bench, Macdonall v. Baily, Mr. Knapp was heard for the defendant, after which the judgment of the court of King's Bench was affirmed, with 80 l. costs.—Mr. Fordyce, surveyor-general of the crown lands, presented the third report respecting the land revenue of the crown; which was ordered to lie on the table.—The qualification indemnity bill was read a second time, and committed for tomorrow.