Sitting of 26 June 1806

MINUTES.
Mr S. Le Fevrepresented three petitions from the inhabitants of Brighthelmstone, in favour of the bill for constructing a Jetty or Jetties near that town.—Mr. Tierney presented a petition from the Butchers and Farmers, within fifteen miles of the metropolis, against the Hide and Skin Regulation bill.—On the motion of sir J. Newport the Irish Revenue Jurisdiction bill was read a 2d time.—On the motion of sir J. Newport the Irish Distillery bill went through a committee.—On the motion of the lord Advocate of Scotland, it was ordered that the house should to-morrow resolve itself into a committee on the report of the committee of the 21st of July 1803, relative to the Bell Rock Lighthouse in Scotland.—Mr. Grenfell presented a petition from the London Assurance Company against the bill for the incorporation of the GlobeInsurance Company. Referred to the committee on the said bill.—Mr. Calcraft obtained leave to bring in a bill to make compensation to the proprietors of certain lands at Chatham, Warley Common, and Woolwich,

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which had been occupied for the purposes of his majesty's ordnance. Mr. C. immediately brought up the bill, which was read a first time.—Mr. King brought up a bill to amend the Post Office acts; which was read a first time.—Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the committee on the bill for regulating the office of the Receiver General of the Post Office, which was agreed to.—Mr. Rose presented a petition from the Trustees of the British Museum, praying aid to complete the purchase of Mr. Townley's Collection, and to finish the buildings now erecting for the use of that institution.

VOLUNTEERS.
Mr. C. Wynnesaid, that in consequence of something he had heard was mentioned in the house yesterday, he thought it necessary to state, that no communication whatever was made to the volunteers from the executive government since the 1st of Feb. last, and that there existed no disposition whatever to withhold any information that might be desired upon the subject. Every paper that had been ordered, was already before the house; and if the hon. gent. who alluded to this subject yesterday, thought proper to move for others, they would, if forthcoming, be immediately granted. Here the hon. member read the papers relative to the volunteers, which had been written from the Secretary of State's Office since Jan. last; and expressed his readiness to accede to any motion that might be made for their production. The hon. member took notice of the order for regular returns from the several Volunteer corps, with which order the corps under the command of the hon. gent. had not complied; and before the hon. gent. had ventured to charge a public officer with neglect of duty, he ought to have taken care, if not to perform his own public duty, at least to be better informed as to the attention of others to that point.
Mr. Bastarddisclaimed the intention of imputing any neglect to the officer to whom the hon. member alluded; the hon. gent, would be glad to have all the volunteers on the same establishment, and therefore did not object to the proposed change. As to the returns which ought to have been made from the corps under his command, he had to state that although the commander of 5 or 6 battalions, he left altogether the drawing of pay and the making of returns to the commanders of the several battalions, he be-
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ing himself unable to attend to such things, from his connection with the militia, with whom he generally was out of the county in which the volunteers alluded to were stationed. The hon. gent. concluded with moving for Copies of the Letters addressed by Mr. Smyth, of the Secretary of State's Office, to Mr. Moore, of the War Office, dated Jan. 27, and Feb. 1; and. also of that addressed by earl Spencer to the Secretary at War, in March last.— The two first letters were ordered, and upon the motion being put as to the last,
Mr. Bastardexpressed a hope that the volunteers would know ere long, upon what footing they were to stand, as much confusion resulted from the uncertainty in which they were at present placed. Indeed the evil was such, that he could with difficulty contrive to keep quiet the corps over which he had any influence, until their fate should be known. Perhaps this uneasiness might have arisen from misrepresentation, but certainly the regulations respecting the volunteers ought to be announced with all convenient expedition.
Mr. C. Wynnewas surprised that any such uncertainty should prevail, as the hon. gent. alluded to. For it was already very explicitly declared, that among that great majority of the volunteers, who were on the August allowance, no change whatever had taken place, excepting the reduction of the drill serjeant's pay. And as to those on the June allowances, the intended change was very fully understood. With regard to the other point in the hon. gents'. speech upon the subject of the future regulations of the volunteers, they were of course to act upon the regulations at present existing, until the new regulations were communicated to them. These new regulations were already in a very forward train, and would be sent to the several corps as soon as they could be prepared. Upon the conduct of the hon. gent. or his corps, he meant to make no other remark than was warranted by fact. As to drawing for pay, he could not say that the hon. gents'. sub-commanders had neglected their duty upon that point, nor, indeed, did he ever hear of any volunteer officers who were at all remiss in drawing for pay, but he was enabled to state from papers he held in his hand, that notwithstanding the utmost endeavours on the part of the secretary of state's office, and frequent ex-

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hortations to the several commandants, to make the regular returns four times a year, no return had been made from the corps under the hon. gents' command, on any of the quarters ending in the months of Aug. Dec. or April last.
Mr. Longasked the hon. gen. if he was competent to answer, whether it way meant that if any of the corps upon the August allowance should be reduced it number, they would be at liberty to admit new members, under the same regulations as formerly?
Mr. C. Wynneanswered, certainly, until fresh regulations should be made out.—The motion was then agreed to

BANKRUPT LAWS BILL.
The Solicitor General rosepursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill to alter and amend the Bankrupt Laws, or rather, he said, more correctly speaking, to remove certain defects in those laws. It was by no means his intention to attempt the amendment of the whole of the law upon this subject, but to remove certain great defects, the mischievous consequences of which were every day observed, and most sensibly felt by all Who had any opportunity of considering the question. His object at present simply was, to introduce some regulations which were obviously necessary. According to the existing Bankrupt law, any acts done or debts contracted by the bankrupt, in the course of the period which intervened between the committal of the act of bankruptcy and the taking out of the commission, Was, as it affected the creditors, Completely annulled. The evils resulting from this provision were of the most serious nature; for it often happened that a bankrupt had sold a real estate, and, received the money for it, after the committal of an act of bankruptcy, and yet, unless according to the act of the 21st Of James. 1. such sale had taken place 5 years before the commission was taken out, the purchaser was deprived of his purchase, and it became the property of the assignees of the bankrupt. Another evil resulting from the present law was, that if money was lent to bankrupt at any time during the period just referred to, such money was liable to be distributed among the creditors, and the lender was not, any more than the purchaser of the estate, allowed even the small consolation of receiving a dividend, or any portion of his money from the bankrupt's effects, nor had he,
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indeed, any remedy at all. The learned gent. referred to the acts which it was object to amend; and proceeded to observe upon their nature, the principal of all which was to protect the debts of a bona fide Creditor's bankrupt. That act the house must be fully aware, which in law was an act of bankruptcy, was by no means an act of notoriety, nor even such generally as a creditor could by the utmost vigilance contrive to know. In most cases, indeed, it was an act known only to the bankrupt himself, or any of his servants, who by his direction denied his being at home upon a creditor's calling for him. Why then, the learned gent. asked, should such mischiefs as those he had described be allowed to accrue to men liable to deal with a bankrupt under such circumstances? and why should their ignorance of an event, which it was almost impossible for them to know, be permitted to involve the forfeiture of their just claims? But these were not all the evils which the present law produced; for it was not less severe against the bankrupt himself than it was against his creditors. The avowed principle of the bankrupt law was, that when a bankrupt gave up all his property he should be discharged from all his debts: but by the law as it now stood, that principle was not acted upon; for the bankrupt's total release from the commission did not protect him from those debts which he might, perhaps unknowingly, have contracted after the committal of the act of bankruptcy which led to such commission; therefore the bankrupt was placed in the extraordinary situation of being called upon to pay that which he could have no property to pay, unless he were guilty of an act of felony.—What he had already stated the learned gent. conceived quite enough to impress upon the house the necessity of amending this law. But there was a still greater evil than any he had mentioned, produced by the present system. If after a commission had been taken out, an act of bankruptcy was proved anterior to that upon which the commission was grounded, all the proceedings of such commission were void, and the commission was superseded. In consequence of which the assignees, who were made responsible for all the bankrupt's property they possessed, or had previously sold, were placed in a situation of extreme hardship. It had not unfrequently happened, and indeed, in

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the course, his own experience, he had known an instance in which a first, seconds and even a third commission had been set aside in this way. In that instance, as no doubt brothers, the object was to defeat the proceedings taken against the bankrupt, by whom, with that intention the anterior acts of bankruptcy were kept back. If then in addition to the injuries thus arising to the bankrupts, the assignees and the creditors, one considered the enormous expence of actions depending on the committal of acts of bankruptcy, the amount of the bankrupt's property dissipated in such actions, and with no other object in general than mere litigation, it was impossible not to feel astonished that the law should have been suffered to remain so long in its present state. Three modes were suggested, the learned gent. stated, of remedying the evils complained of: the first was, entirely to abolish one of the great principles of the present bankrupt laws, namely, that no man should be considered a bankrupt until the time at which the commission should be taken out. But various objections offered against this suggestion arising out of the expedients notoriously resorted to by bankrupts fraudulently disposed. Another provision was recommended, that no commission should be granted unless the act of bankruptcy alleged by the petitioning creditor had taken place a certain time before the commission according to the advice of some, three or six months. But to this recommendation he knew of several objections, which urged at least the propriety of a much greater distance of time. When it was considered how reluctantly creditors in general took out a commission of bankruptcy, how frequently they granted a deed of trust in order to avoid bringing expence and trouble upon themselves, or disgrace and ruin upon the bankrupt, and when it was recollected that those deeds were often protracted much longer than sit months, he trusted the house would feel that no such period ought to be fixed. But although great inconvenience and injustice might result from such ad arrangement, still the law was not to be left as it stood. It appeared to him, that With out fixing any period upon this point, bona fide debts contracted by the bankrupt at any time before the commission, should be recoverable from the effects of the bankrupt,
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notwithstanding any previous act of bankruptcy. This seemed to be the only remedy fairly applicable to that part of the law, namely, that all honest debts contracted, all payments made, all conveyances and engagements entered into by the bankrupt, should be good and valid, notwithstanding any previous act of bankruptcy, provided the person or persons entering into such contracts or lending such money to the bankrupt, should have no notice of such act of bankruptcy, or knowledge of the bankrupt's insolvency. He proposed too, that as to such debts, the bankrupts certificate should be a protection, as complete as With regard to any debts claimed under the commission. Another object of the bill he meant to bring forward would be, that no commission of bankruptcy should be superseded in consequence of previous acts of bankruptcy done by the bankrupt: and also, that debts contracted by the bankrupt, which were not payable until after the commission was taken out, should be provable under the commission, whether they were simple debts or those for which securities were given. The learned gent. concluded with observing that these were the only objects which the bill he proposed to bring forward had in view.—Leave was accordingly given to bring in the bill.

IRISH POOR RELIEF BILL.
Sir J. Newportbrought in this bill, and moved that it be read a first time.
Mr. Bagwellthanked the right hon. baronet for his perseverance in this bill, but apprehended there was a point or two in which they might have some difference of opinion. As the law was already, grand juries had the power to raise 400l. On counties, and 200l. on cities; the consequence of which was, that in those counties which had cities, there were houses of industry; supported by the aggregate sum; but, in those counties which had no cities, the contrary was the case; and he, therefore, hoped, that power would be given to the grand juries of the latter, to make up that deficiency, as many of the counties so situated in Ireland, possessed more opulence than some.of those which had cities. From the time that this assessment of 400l. upon counties was first granted for the poor, it had never been increased, although for other purposes, rates had been made to the amount of 30;000l. though thee people themselves

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were so anxious to have provision made for the poor, that houses were built by private subscriptions, rising in a gradation of from one to 100 guineas. It should be remembered, that there were no poor laws in Ireland, and he hoped it would remain so, for the country was too poor to support the extravagance of them.
Mr. Fosterconsidered this as a law professing to assist that of 1772, for taking up idle persons, and obliging them to work. That act was only carried into execution in Dublin, where there was now the sum of 20,000l. paid annually for the support of vagabonds; and Dublin being considered as the centre, all the other counties entirely neglected them. If the bill was, as he supposed, intended to compel grand juries to extend their powers in this respect, he should vote against it, and particularly, as he thought it by far too late in the session to press a measure which had before been so frequently agitated and rejected in the Irish parliament.
Mr. Bagwellsaid, there were houses of industry in other places besides Dublin, but that they were supported by private subscription.
Sir J. Newportexplained, that if the right hon. gent, attended to the bill, he would find it expressly provided, that one half of the houses should be appropriated to the correction of vagabonds and sturdy beggars, and the other half to the relief of the needy poor. The right hon. gent. was also wrong in supposing that this was the first time of levies for this purpose being made compulsory upon grand juries, of which he quoted two or three instances, and the only compulsion was on the counties which had houses of industry, to maintain them. As to the charge of bringing it forward so late in the session, he appealed to the recollection of members, whether he had not made the same proposition last year. In the early part of this session, he was, for a time, kept out of his seat, by what he must consider a very improper proceeding. Since then, his time had been fully occupied, as would be proved by the great mass of business he had already brought forward; and, late as it might be, he hoped he should now be permitted to go on with a measure, which he felt to be so essential to the welfare of his country.
Mr. Alexandersaid, that however disagreeable it might be to oppose a measure,
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the object of which was professed to be humane and charitable, he must object to all new and partial schemes, as hitherto the relief held out to one class of the poor in Ireland, fell heaviest on the other poor part of it. The greatest part of the taxes of the north of Ireland, was paid by people inhabiting houses of about 51. a year, and as no other property there but lands and houses contributed to the payment of the poor, he was desirous of having some more general measure.
Mr. Parnellsaid, it was impossible to travel over the high roads in Ireland, without being Sensible of the necessity of this measure; and. as to the objection of its falling heavy on the land owners; they were a description of persons in that country best able to afford it.—The bill was then read a first time.

TRAINING BILL.
On the motion of Mr. Secretary Windham, the house went into a. committee on this bill. That clause being read which confined the operation of the bill to England
Mr. Yorkerose to express his opinion of it. He approved of the general principle of the bill, as far as it was similar to that which he had the honour to bring in on a former occasion, and thought it, in the present state of Europe, of essential importance to the safety of the country. United with the militia, the men levied under this bill would form a second line to. the regulars, should the enemy effect a landing. So much for the general principle of the bill; but it must undergo considerable modification, before it could meet his entire approbation. He should afterwards shew, that, instead of confirming, it abridged the royal prerogative; but he should at present confine himself to that clause which limited its operation to South Britain. Now he could see no reason why Scotland should not be subject to the same burden, and possessed of the same means of defence with England. He would therefore propose, that the words "Great Britain " should be inserted instead of "England."
Mr. Secretary Windhamacknowledged, that there was much weight in what the hon. member had observed, and that all must be agreed in distributing the burden and defence as equally as possible. But he should state the reasons which induced him to confine the present operation of the bill to England. In the first place, to a great

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part of that country, especially that part called the Highlands, the bill would not apply, and besides, from the general habits of the people, it was less necessary. In Scotland the people were also better trained and more military than here. The state of the volunteers was superior, according to what he had learned, not in point of numbers, for he did not know that in this respect they exceeded their proper proportion, but in point of discipline. But then came the objection, that the numbers of the volunteers would be much diminished by withdrawing the June allowances. Though gentlemen seemed to hold out such considerations as these, somewhat in the way of a menace, yet he was willing to hope that this menace or expectation was ill-founded. It ought to be considered, that if the allowance was diminished, the duty was also diminished. To that part of Scotland, called the Lowlands, certainly the bill might be more applicable; but still it was thought proper to try the experiment in England, and not to include Scotland in the first instance. There might be reasons why it should not extend to Scotland at all, though he rather thought it might at some future time; but at all events it would be imprudent to extend it to Scotland now. Another reason was the advanced state of the session, when many gentlemen of that country were out of town, and, therefore he would oppose the amendment.
Sir James Pulteneysaw no reason why the provisions of the bill should not extend to Scotland. It might not apply to the highlands; but why not extend it to the Lowlands, which was the more populous part of the country, and that part too which was most exposed to attacks from the opposite coast. He allowed the excellence of the volunteers in that country, but it was to be considered, that on account of the distance from the capital, there was but a small regular force kept there, and therefore it ought to have the advantage of every other mode of defence. Whether or not the volunteers would be diminished, he should not say, but he hoped that, whether the provisions of the bill were to be applied to Scotland this year or not, they would be afterwards applied to it.
Mr. Percevalobserved, as to the point of the bill's not being applicable to Scotland, that the provisions of the bill of 1803 had, in fact, extended to that. country. The reasons given for not extending this
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measure to Scotland were perfectly nugatory, for they would apply equally well to many parts of Wales, Cumberland, and Westmoreland, in the mountainous districts of which the population was very much scattered. But at any rate there was no reason why the bill should not extend to the Lowlands of Scotland. Though the people might be more military and better trained, still the king ought to have the power of calling them out; and this he might exercise according to his discretion, and exempt particular districts, as circumstances should require. There was no difficulty in executing the militia laws in Scotland, and why should not this measure be extended to that country, when the principle was the same? But then it had been said that the volunteers were in a better state there. It was certainly to be considered, that these were to be deprived of the June allowances, and scarcely any motive but their zeal would remain to keep them together; and here the reasoning of the ministers themselves, that a variety of motives, such as the ballot for the militia and the army of reserve, were necessary to induce men to continue in these corps, might be turned against themselves. He would certainly, therefore, support the amendment.
Colonel Woodobserved, that the militia laws were new in Scotland, and had at first occasioned considerable dissatisfaction there. He thought, therefore, that it would be better to wait for another year, before the principle of this bill should be extended to Scotland.
Mr. Calcraftsaid, that his reason for not wishing to extend the provisions of the bill to Scotland, in the first instance, was, that the experiment might not be tried on too great a surface, but that it ought to be confined to the country were it was most applicable. As to the act of 1803, it was to be considered that it had not been carried into effect; and it was questionable whether, at the time it was brought in, it was intended to be carried into effect.
Mr. Bastardcontended, that whatever might have fallen from the hon. secretary, the volunteers of England were not one jot behind those of Scotland either in discipline or in zeal. Besides, there was no certainty whatever of raising men under the present bill. It was in fact a money bill, since upon paying a fine of 5l. any man might be exempted from its operation;

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and he thought that all who were by any means able to afford it would rather pay the fine. This would make the bill liable to the same objections as the parish bill. Was not Scotland bound to bear a share in the general expence of the country, and why should a burden be imposed on this country from which Scotland was exempted? He spoke with great warmth of the enthusiasm of the volunteers in that part of the country with which he was best acquainted. and thought that the defence of the country might be safely intrusted to them. If the volunteers of Scotland were well disciplined, they had also been liberally paid, since a much greater number of corps had been there upon the June allowance, than in his country.
Mr. Secretary Windhamobserved, that gentleman argued as if he had said that the lateness of the session precluded him from doing what he would otherwise have done. He had said no such thing, for though this might be a motive for the house to oppose the amendment, he allowed that it was no justification of ministers. But he had said, that at whatever time the measure might have been brought forward it ought not to apply, in the first instance, to Scotland. As to the general principle of applying to one part what was not applied to another, the gentlemen on the other side ought to think of their own practice, and not insist on the principle of equality too broadly, because in that view Ireland also ought to be included. There night be reasons why the bill should not apply to Scotland for two or three years. Perhaps it might never apply, although he rather thought that it might some time hence. The militia ballot too, was in force in Scotland, and this would be a motive for the volunteers to continue in their corps. As the situation of Scotland was not so favourable to this bill, we might, in applying it, also lose the good will of the people.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, that the right hon. gent's arguments did not appear at all satisfactory to his mind. If he wished to make an experiment merely, he should recommend it to him to try it on a. much narrower scale, and to confine, for the present, this boon of his to the county of Norfolk with which he was best acquainted. As to Ireland, no argument whatever could be founded on its not being proper to apply the bill to that country, in favour of the exemption, of Scotland. The state
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of the two countries were totally different. The circumstance of the militia-ballot being still in force in Scotland pointed out to him a defect in the right hon. gent's military system, of which he had not before been aware. The militia-ballot was to be given up here because it injured the recruiting service. But now it appeared that it was still retained in that place where the recruiting could succeed best. He thought that both countries ought to be included in this bill.
Mr. Whitbreadcontended that this bill was totally different from the parish bill, in respect of fines, for the people were fined so enormously, that they could not pay, for not doing what they could not by any possibility perform. There were few labourers who would not choose rather to he trained 24 days, with Is. a-day, than to pay 5l. If gentlemen went on a principle of equality, the bill ought to extend to Ireland; there were reasons against this, and so there were for extending it to Scotland. He was of opinion that none of the volunteers of Scotland would withdraw themselves, on account of being deprived of the addition. I allowance.
Mr. Bankesobserved, that he had never heard a measure supported on such slender grounds, or by so little good sense. The bill was to be considered both in the light of a benefit and a burden, and he could see no reason for confining its effects to one part of the country. With regard to the most extensive and populous part of Scotland, whatever was applicable to England was also applicable to Scotland. As to the bill being a matter of experiment, he would ask, was a small surface selected, when it was proposed to extend the experiment to all England? and why should England alone be selected for this experiment, which, it not found to answer, was to be withdrawn, after the feelings of Englishmen had been sported with? Were we so vile and contemptible as to be called upon to bear this burden alone? From all he had heard of the volunteers of Scotland he was disposed to speak of them with respect, but it gave him pain to listen to the invidious and unfair comparison that had been made by a right hon. gent. this night. He would ask him, what he had to complain of as to the zeal or discipline of the volunteers of England? On the whole he thought, that Scotland, where the great body of the people had the same

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manners and habits with the people of this country, should not be exempted from a burden which this country was to bear. With regard to the number of men that would come forward to be disciplined, he was not very sanguine on that point. It would be a material drawback with many, to consider that they were liable to be drafted into any regular regiment, for an unlimited period, as might happen to be the case under the bill.
Colonel Eyreconsidered, that for a permanent military arrangement, there was too much of severity in this system. The people of England were ready to bear those hardships which appeared necessary, but not those burdens for which they could see no necessity. When there was a pressing danger, the volunteers appeared sufficient to meet it; and if there was any relaxation in their discipline, or deficiency in their numbers at the present time, it was merely because the danger was less urgent.
Mr. C. Wynnethought the provisions of the bill not applicable to Scotland at present. When it was now argued that this bill, by inflicting a fine, imposed a great burden on the people of England, he must beg leave to remind the right hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke) who brought in the other bill, that that was supported merely by arguments on what was called the undoubted prerogative of the crown, and that there were no means given of escaping its operation even upon the payment of a fine. It must, therefore, evidently appear that the former bill was a greater burden imposed upon the people of England. An hon. gent. was mistaken who supposed, that because the fines were remitted which were due in consequence of the parish bill, that, therefore, the fines must be remitted which would become due under this bill. The reason that the fines were remitted to the parishes on the former bill was, that it was conceived unjust that they should be fined for not raising men, when it was impossible that they could have raised them-Nobody, however, would say, that there was any impossibility to prevent the service of those who should be balloted under the present bill.
Lord Binningthought, that whatever there was of good or of evil in the present bill, should be extended as well to Scotland as to England. He did not like a gratuitous and unnecessary distinction be-
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tween one part of G. Britain and the other. He thought the principle of the present bill was generally applicable to Scotland, for there was not more than a fourth of the whole population of that country under the circumstances which were stated as an objection. There were several parts of England and Wales that lay open to the same objection, but he did not see why the whole of Scotland should be exempted on account of the Circumstances of a part. As to the volunteers of Scotland, they were entitled to every degree of praise, but at the same time, he thought, that equal credit, was due to the volunteers of England, and therefore that the argument founded on a distinction between them was entitled to little weight.
Colonel Matthewswas of opinion, that the experiment would completely fail, and therefore, it was not of much consequence on what scale it was tried.
Mr. Huskissonperceived a great inconsistency in the arguments of the supporters of the bill. At one time, they spoke of it as an experiment, which, in another year, might be extended to Scotland; and, at another time, they spoke of it as inapplicable to Scotland, on account of the smallness of its population. This last objection had no sort of connection with the former; for whether the experiment succeeded in England, or whether it failed, the mountains of Scotland would not disappear and the Highlands would remain just as they were. As to the argument of freeing Scotland from the burden on account of the number of the volunteer corps, he must observe, that the more volunteer corps were scattered over the country, the less would be the pressure. If there were fewer corps in England, of course it was more difficult for men to escape the operation of this act, by entering into them, as men could not in every part of the country find a volunteer corps to join. There was another argument which had been stated, but which he could by no means assent to. The mover of the bill supposed that there was great dissatisfaction in Scotland about the militia. He would confidently assert, that, although there might have been some ferment in 1797, when the militia was first introduced in Scotland, yet, at the present day, there was no dissatisfaction upon that subject.
Mr. Calvertthought that the great advantage would be rather in the enrolling

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the men, than in the training of them. As to the enrolment, he could see no reason why that should not take place in Scotland; and as to the training, that was a thing which might or might not be acted on according, to the circumstances of the country.
Mr. Secretary Windhamsaid it appeared to him that it was a serious objection to bringing on a measure which would affect Scotland so much at a period when a great number of the Scotch members had gone home and were at such a distance that it could not be expected they would return to be present at the discussion. He could not allow that the fine proposed was any burden at all, as it was only a commutation for a duty which it was allowed by every body that the country had a right to call for. If this duty were performed, there would be no fine, and if any man wished to exempt himself from performing this duty by paying the fine, he certainly could have nothing to complain of. If he had not proposed a greater fine, the reason was that he really hoped that the bill would be efficient, and that a number of men, even of a better description (to whom the shilling a day would be no object), would by their personal service, set an, example to their neighbours, and show that they conceived it no disgrace to come forward and receive that degree of instruction which would be necessary to enable them to defend their country if it should be invaded. In describing the awkwardness of serving personally, an hon. gent. (Mr. S. Stanhope) had rather clumsily expressed himself on a former night when the spoke of the embarrassing situation of a man standing in the ranks between his own groom and his father's chimney-sweep. Now, if a gentleman was obliged to stand in the ranks next to a chimney-sweep, he did not see how it made the matter worse that it was his father's chimney-sweep. All this awkwardness would, however, be done away by the present bill, for if the gentleman did not chose to enter a volunteer corps, he might still be exempted on paying his fine of 5l.
Mr. Yorkethought it his duty to take the sense of the house upon the present question. The question was not merely about extending a new experiment to Scotland, but it was whether Scotland should be exempted from what it was now liable to
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by the existing law, the levy-en-masse act; and whether it should be freed from a burden which England was called upon to bear. As to the difference between Scotch and English volunteers, he trusted the right hon. gent. did not mean to rest on such an invidious distinction. The question, then, was merely, whether Scotland should be exempted because a part of that country was thinly inhabited? He could not allow that there was any other objection; for, at the time that he was in administration, had the honour to bring in the former bill, he never had heard a single word of objection from any Scotch member, on the ground of its producing dissatisfaction. Under that bill there was a complete return of the enrolling in Scotland, and he therefore saw no reason why the men who were ready to be enrolled, should not also be trained. As to the thinness of population in certain districts, that ought to be no objection. The bill should be made general and there might be clauses which would confine its operation in districts where there were any local objections. As to the late period of the session, that could not be relied upon by the right hon. gent. as an argument, as several months had elapsed since his opening speech, and he had had time sufficient to have brought in the bill perfect.
Mr. Ryderobserved, that there were many parts of the Highlands of Scotland, particularly in the counties of Dumbarton, and Perth, which were more populous than Wales, Cumberland, Westmoreland, and many parts of England in which the bill was to operate. As to the Lowlands, he conceived them to be exactly in the same situation as England, and that there was no reason why they should be free from this burden.—The committee then divided, when there appeared. For Mr. Yorke's amendment 38; Against it 76: Majority 38.
On a subsequent clause of the bill respecting, the numbers to be enrolled,
Mr. Yorkemoved, as an amendment, that these Words should be added, "regard being had to the number of volunteers enrolled and actually serving." He considered that the appointment ought to be, directed now, as on former occasions, by the number of volunteers. For instance, if Lancashire had 18,000 volunteers, and Yorkshire, which was a much larger county, had but 10,000, he thought that re-

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gard should be had to that circumstance, in the apportionment of the number of men for which these counties should be called on.—Mr. C. Wynne did not think that the appointment ought to go by districts. The individuals who were in volunteer corps were not liable to be called upon in this force; but he did not see why persons who were not in volunteer corps should claim any advantage merely because their neighbours were volunteers.—Lord Castlereagh thought, that in the apportionment each county and each parish should have credit for the gross number of volunteers they furnished, and that a parish that had most of its population engaged in the volunteer service, ought not to be called upon.—Mr. Windham allowed, that it would be a sufficient answer to the call, if a parish could shew that those who were liable were serving in another description Of force.—Lord Castlereagh replied, that if such was the hon. gent.s' opinion, he was at a less to conceive what was the object of his bill. He had always understood it, that he wished to raise 200,000 men in England, exclusive of the volunteers, but now it appeared possible, that the bill would not raise a single man.—Mr. Windham replied, that he did not absolutely undertake that the bill should raise 200,000 men, for if the men who were called upon by ballot to serve should be actually serving in another way, the intention of the bill would be answered as well.—Mr. Perceval then said, that it was possible that the ballot for those 200,000 men might fall upon part of the 300,000 volunteers; who being exempt, not a man would be raised.—Mr. Yorke thought, that between the volunteers who should be balloted, and the men who would pay their fine of 5l. the measure was not to likely to be efficient.—Mr. Windham thought that this was supposing an extreme and improbable case. It could not be supposed that the ballot would fall entirely on volunteers, and persons disposed to pay the fine. The ballot would be from the lists of those liable to serve in the militia. The Volunteers, of course, were not in that list.—Mr. Yorke replied, that the volunteers certainly were upon that list, and liable to be balloted for, although they were afterwards exempted from serving. He complained of the manner the house was treated on the present occasion. They were referred upon this bill to the schedule
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of another bill, which was to come on after this was disposed of (he alluded to the militia act, which directs the returns that are to be made under it). This was completely reversing the order of things, and putting the cart before the horse.— Mr. Giles said, he should not go into the details, but argued, that as the men were by this bill to be apportioned according to the number of men liable to serve in the militia, the volunteers could not come under this description, as they were not liable to serve. He saw no objection to this act operating according to the returns which were called for by another act (the militia act). It was generally allowed that it would save a great deal of trouble to magistrates and others, if there should be only a single list, and that of the persons liable to serve in the persons liable to serve in the militia.—Mr. Perceval was not surprised that his learned friend (Mr. Giles) had not chosen to go into details, as the bill was in this respect most inexplicable and unintelligible. The right hon, gent. who had brought it in had proved that he did not understand it, and was therefore now very properly employed in consulting other people. (Mr. Windham was then conversing with Mr. Giles and others). He had at first considered that the volunteer's were not liable to the ballot; in the next explanation he said they were, but that it was most improbable that the ballot should exclusively fall upon them; and in his third explanation he talked only of his militia lists, and of volunteer's not being upon those returns. In this third explanation he was found to be equally wrong, and it could not now be denied, that the names of volunteers would be found on those militia lists. When this bill referred to the schedules of another bill not yet passed, it was giving the right hon. gent. a strange degree of credit. He viewed his superstructure before he thought of his foundation; and he then told the house, that although they saw no foundation at present, they might depend upon it that he would hereafter make a foundation to support his building. The house might give him that degree of credit if they pleased, and gentlemen might vote for his bill; but if any person who voted for it pretended to understand what he was voting for, he must say that man was either a conjuror or a prophet, if he could foresee and anticipate those

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things which had not as yet occurred even to the fancy of the rt. hon. gent., which were altogether in nubibus, and which the right hon. gent. could not attempt to explain.
Dr. Laurenceaffected neither to be a prophet nor a conjuror; but, without either inspiration or magic, he thought he could correctly understand the clause of the bill, although it was not to be expected that by a layman minute legal details should be accurately set forth in this stage of the proceeding. His hon. and learned friend seemed to expect a precision in this case, which he himself (Mr. Perceval) could not attain, even after his own bills had been ultimately sanctioned: at least, it was evident, that after he had prepared them (the volunteer acts) he did not comprehend their purport; and one of the statutes to which he had just referred, which was designed for operation in the months of July and August, was not carried into effect until the most ominous day distinguished in the annals of folly and illusion, the first of April.
Mr. Ellisonsaid, that the rt. hon. secretary was, by his projects, oversetting the whole system of government in this country. Although, said the hon. gent. I wish to support ministers, I will not, and cannot, as they go on.—The amendment as proposed by. Mr. Yorke was then put and agreed to.
On proceeding to the concluding part of the bill, which is intended to regulate the power of his majesty, with regard to the incorporation of these levies with the regiments, in case of invasion,
Lord Castlereaghagain rose to observe, that many material particulars occurred to his mind, which might occasion a protracted debate on this subject; he therefore proposed that the chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again the next day, which was acceded to, and the report was made, and permission given accordingly.

MINUTES.
The judges attended in pursuance of the order of the house, to deliver their opinions on questions put to them, relative to the appeal, Lucina v. Crawford. This case arose out of a policy of assurance, effected by the commissioners for the management of Dutch property, detained under certain circumstances in the year 1795, on certain detained Dutch vessels and cargoes, on their voyage from st. Helena to this country, some of which vessels were afterwards lost, and an action brought by the commissioners on the policy to recover an average loss. The cause, after being litigated in the courts below, was brought up by appeal to the house of lords, where, after counsel had been heard on both sides, 8 questions were propounded to the judges for their opinion on points of law arising out of the case. The main question, to which the others were in some measure subordinate, was, in substance, whether the commissioners had a legal interest in the property, on its voyage from st. Helena, so as to enable them to effect a legal and valid policy of insurance thereon. Upon these questions the judges commenced the delivery of their opinions seriatim. Mr. baron Graham first delivered his opinion, which was as to the question of interest, that the commissioners had a sufficient interest to the property to enable them to effect a legal and valid policy. Mr. justice was decidedly of opinion, on the contrary that the commissioners had no such interest; that they had no interest in the property, either in possession, reversion, or expectancy, in the legal sense of those words; that the most it amounted to was a naked expectation that the property on its arrival in this country might come under their management, and that upon the same principle they might have insured every Dutch ship in the Dutch ports, in the expectation of their being detained by British vessels and brought into the ports of this country.
Lord Walsinghamthen moved to postpone the further delivery of the opinions of the judges till Monday next, which was agreed to.

INDIA—RECAL OF SIR G. BARLOW.
Lord Melvillerose and stated that he came down to the house with the intention of putting a question to a noble lord (Minto) had he seen him in his
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place, relative to the dispatches which had just been received from India. He was impressed with an opinion that ministers were not fully aware of the nature of those dispatches, and the consequences: which might probably result from them. If he saw the noble lord whom he alluded to, in the house to-morrow, he would then our a question to him, for the purpose of ascertaining what were the ultimate intentions of his majesty's government as to the recal of sir George Barlow. It would depend on the answer he should receive, whether he should, or not, give notice of a motion on this subject on Monday. He did not wish to be considered as now giving any notice of a motion, and repeated, that whether he should do so, would depend on the answer he might receive to his intended question.

TEMPLE-BAR AND SNOW-HILL LOTTERY BILL.
On the question for the third reading of the Temple-Bar and Hill Lottery bill,
The Duke of Norfolk roseand expressed a variety of objections against the measure. The bill in question arose out of circumstances which had nothing to do with the real principle of a lottery, and would go to extend an injurious spirit of gaining among all ranks of people. There were now no less than three regular state lotteries, which the exigencies of the state, and the financial benefits derived therefrom, were grounds for tolerating. There were, however, other grounds, but of rare occurrence, on which he deemed an expedient of the kind not objectionable. He meant, in cases of rare or costly works of art or ingenuity, where the parties were not able to procure a sale or market for them, save by an extraordinary or peculiar measure of this nature. But, to enable persons who speculated in buildings, and which they might not be able, from a variety of circumstances, to dispose of, to come forward to parliament for a lottery to assist them, was what he could not approve of. The case of Mr. alderman Boydell's lottery being one upon the rarely-occurring principle he had alluded to,he offered no objection to it, but the present measure was one of a very different description. His grace then adverted to some points which had transpired in the committee on the bill; and proceeded to observe, that the present bill would almost to a certainty, generate a future application for another lottery, inasmuch as it was intended

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to extend these improvements to the south side of St. Clement's church, which now were only carried into effect on the north. Upon the whole, he saw no adequate grounds for the parties coming forward to parliament for a lottery, in the present case. He would, therefore, give his negative to the measure.
The Lord Chancellormuch as her espected whatever fell from his noble friend, certainly differed from him materially, on the present occasion: the lottery proposed by the present bill, was undoubtedly one of that description, in which the lower orders of the people could not venture, and therefore it was impossible it could operate injuriously with respect to them. On the contrary, those who would speculate in the lottery proposed by the bill in question, or were persons of some property or substance, engaged in some beneficial branch of trade, With respect to what the noble duke observed relative to lotteries in favour of the disposal of rare and costly works of art, he cordially agreed with his noble friend. In the case of the Boydells, for instance, in the then state of things, there was no hope whatever for a mart or issue for such articles, particularly upon the continent, where many of the prints or pictures used to be disposed of at the great fairs. As things then stood, they might as well expect to sell so many cobwebs, as pictures. It was, therefore, necessary to have recourse to the expedient of a lottery to enable the worthy proprietors to dispose of the valuable articles alluded to. With respect to the case of Bowyer's history of England, the principle was the same. The history of such a country as England must be valuable; and to have that history illustrated in the splendid manner of the history alluded to, highly desirable. To a certain extent, this principle certainly applied to buildings, in cases where great improvements, or ornamental decorations were included. In the present case both these estimable objects were united. The speculation was entered into with such a share and mixture of public spirit, as did the projectors great credit. Much of what the parties had to complain of arose from sudden breaking out of the war, by which the prices of all materials were greatly increased, and those of labour in a still higher proportion; so that it was impossible the parties could go on without plunging into gulph of bankruptcy. On these grounds, he submitted
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to his noble friend, whether he would carry his disapprobation so far, as not to yield to the consideration of unavoidable circumstances; besides the bill had been sent up from the commons, and had passed through every stage among their lordships, save this very last. He would again submit to the noble duke, whether it would not be better to consider the observations he had made as a kind of caveat in future against applications of the kind, from mistaken or interested speculations? The ruin of the parties might be the consequence of the rejection of the bill; of men who had come forward with a degree of public spirit, in an undertaking tending to improve and beautify two important avenues in this great metropolis, and which circumstance redounded to their honour. For his part at his advanced time of life he should rather wish to see these improvements hastened than retarded, in order that he might see some of them carried to perfection. On the whole, his sentiments of the measure were such, as fully to justify him in urging their lordships to pass the bill.
The question was then put and the bill read a third time.