Sitting of 13 June 1806

MINUTES.
Sir T. Metcalfebrought up a bill for incorporating the Globe In-

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surance Company. After a few words from Mr. Prinsep, sir W. Curtis, and Mr. Shaw Lefevre, the debate on the first reading was postponed to Tuesday next.—Lord H. Petty, from the bar of the house, declared that he had to report that the lords had agreed to a conference with the Commons, on the subject of the abolition of the Slave, Trade, and that they had appointed the same to take place immediately in the Painted Chamber. A Committee was instantly selected, who proceeded to the conference. On their return ld. H. Petty reported to the house that the committee had communicated to the Lords the resolution of the House of Commons on Tuesday last, and that they had left a copy of the same with their Lordships.—Mr. Fuller brought up a bill for the erection of a jetty or jetties in the port of Brighthelmstone; which was read a firs time.—On the motion of Mr. Wickham, an humble address was ordered to be presented to his majesty, that he would be graciously pleased to cause a copy of the articles of the treaty between his majesty and the elector of Bavaria, in the year 1800, by which it was stipulated that commissaries should reside on the part of Great Britain, with the subsidiary corps; also, a variety of papers tending to spew the instructions given to the said commissaries, and the opinion of the commissioners of the treasury thereon.—On the motion of Mr. Grant there were ordered to be laid before the house a copy of the report of the committee of the court of directors, on the subject of the Carnatic Debts, &c. and various letters relative thereto.—Mr. Fox brought up a bill to prevent ships from clearing out for the African Slave Trade, that had not hitherto been employed in the same trade; which was read a first time.—Sir J. Sinclair brought up the report of the committee on the Broad Wheeled Carriage act, which was ordered to be printed.—Sir J. Newport obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend the Election Laws of Ireland, and a bill for the better regulation and collection of the Duties on Spirituous Liquors distilled in Ireland.

WEST INDIA ACCOUNTS BILL.
Lord Henry Pettymoved the order of the day for the house to go into a committee on the West India Accounts bill, which being read, his lordship said, that before he moved that the Speaker do leave the chair, he wished to make a few observations respecting the objects of the bill, by way of obviating the objections thrown out against it on a former night by the right hon. gent. opposite
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(Mr. Rose). He then stated, that in the year 1800 and 1801, commissioners were sent out to West Indies, for the purpose of investigating and auditing the public accounts in the different islands; that they proceeded in the execution of the trust reposed in them, but found the accounts so complicated, and so much mixed with accounts kept in England, that they could not proceed with any effects, and were therefore under the necessity of sending home one of their number, (Mr. Bearcroft) to communicate their difficulties to the treasury, at the risk of the commissioners on the islands being at an entire stand. Mr. Bearcroft arrived in England in 1804, and in the course of that and the year 1805, took examinations of the accounts in England, for the purpose of dectecting the various frauds that had been committed. It was, however, found, in consequence of these examinations, that none of the authors of the abuses in the West Indies could be called to an account with any effect. The principal object of the present bill was to examine into the former powers, and to give the commissioners more extensive ones. And in order to obviate the inconveniencies and difficulties which had anlecedently occurred, so as to frustrate the intention of the commissioners, who had been obliged to send home one of their members, there were other provisions in the bill, to form a new board, one part of which shall reside in the West Indies, and the other in England, which two boards shall continually correspond with each other, and communicate such difficulties in the West Indies, as cannot be cleared up without communications from home. Thus, the two boards would be enabled to make continual progress in the investigation and auditing of the accounts. No time would be lost, as had been the case in sending home Mr. Bearcroft; the commissioners would, on the contrary, be efficient; and how the right hon. gent. could call it a sinecure, he was at a loss to account for. There was also a clause in the bill, empowering the treasury to appoint clerks and secretaries, but not commissioners, as had been stated by the right hon. gent. As to the patronage alluded to by the right hon. gent. there was a considerable difficulty in procuring proper persons to accept of these places, which would compel them to go to the West Indies. As to the point of salaries, he thought these ought to be fixed, and paid regularly. He also obviated the

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objection, as to the commissary acting with the commission, by stating that this commissary was not a public accountant, but a comptroller of accounts. He considered this bill as in every point of view of the most essential importance.
Mr. Rosesaid, the noble lord could not be more desirous to have the abuses in the West Indies inquired into and redressed, than he was. The circumstance of Mr. Bearcroft, the gentleman alluded to, having returned home, and been useful to the auditors, he thought afforded no competent reason for making the public incur the enormous expence of aditional appointments, even before the exertions of the former commissioners had been fully tried. He was inclined to ascribe much of the motive for introducing such a bill (which appeared to him entirely unnecessary) to a violent desire for patronage in his majesty's present ministers. There was no instance in the annals of parliament of the commissioners of the treasury having the power to appoint a secretary with powers so extensive under a warrant of the Great Seal. He objected to this precedent of granting to these commissioners of the treasury a greater power than had ever been conferred by any former act of parliament. He considered that considerable danger might arise from collusion between the parties by the appointment of intermediate commissioners. In short, the bill contained nothing which the former one did not already embrace sufficiently for the purposs intended, except the clauses which related to the punishing of perjury. He had formerly made an objection to the preamble of this bill, and he still should do so, as it amounted to a kind of a slur upon the former ministry and commissioners, who, in his opinion, deserved well of their country for the exertions they had used, and the numerous services which they had rendered. The additional appointments would amount to nothing but sinecures. He had conversed with people who had been in the West Indies in various capacities, and he was now perfectly convinced that no auditors but those who acted on the very spot could be of any use in a business of such a nature; and he should therefore think it his duty to take the sense of the house on it.
Mr. Secretary Foxsaid, that he had himself experienced the difficulty of finding proper candidates to. go to the West Indies. If Mr. Bearcroft had been found so usefu here, it would be strange, if commissioners
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residing here with greater powers than he had, should be found useless. It was very erroneous, therefore, to suppose that those offices would be sinecures. Many persons would, no doubt, fly to this country to escape the rigour of the inquiry in the West Indies, and it was proper to be prepared for this. Besides, the commissioners would go in rotation to the West Indies. He therefore did not see any occasion for the right hon. gent's. amendment.
Mr. Percevalsaid, he thought it would be infinitely more difficult to procure persons to go to the West Indies by rotation than to send out persons immediately after the first engagement for such a purpose. After having enjoyed a salary and sinecures for no less that two years here, it would no doubt be difficult to persuade men to leave their friends and relations in order to go to a dangerous climate, where they might succeed to a much more laborious and disagreeable occupation. He conceived it would be a more difficult task to engage gentleman to go abroad after the expiration of two years, than to persuade a man to go abroad immediately. Nothing was a greater proof of the patronage than the confession of the right hon. secretary (Mr. Fox), who acknowledged that he offered situations in a department with which he had no official connection.—The house then resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill.—On the clause being read for the appointment of five commissioners for auditing accounts, two to act in the West Indies, and three at home,
Mr. Roseobjected to it as an unnecessary and unprecedented creation of new and sinecure places, merely for the purposes of patronage. He stated, that so far was this from being sanctioned by the example of the Board of Treasury, under which he had the honour to act, that in 19 years that Board suppressed upwards of 100 sinecure places, of from 2000l. to 800l. a year. Two sinecure places of 8000l. a year, and which at this time would have amounted to 40,000l. were vacant, and in the gift of his right hon. friend deceased, (Mr. Pitt); but instead of nominating to them, and thus extending his patronage, that great minister suppressed them, as he did all the others, when vacancies occurred. There were at one time forty of them vacant, and he suppressed them all; a fact which he was ready to prove, if any gentleman thought proper to dispute it; for there was nothing he had more at heart, than that the conduct of that Board,

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during the 19 years that he belonged to it, should be examined into. There was no danger of any persons now flying from the West Indies to this country, to escape inquiry, as they would be equally liable to it here, since the passing of the act of 1802. As he considered this new creation to be a matter of patronage and mere formality, without producing any benefit whatever, he should, on a future day, move for an examination at the bar, to enquire what use they could be of.
Mr. Secretary Foxexpressed his surprise that gentlemen should put this bill on such a footing, as to suppose that three commissioners here, in constant correspondence with the commissioners abroad, could be of no use to the auditors of public accounts. As to their refusing to go abroad in rotation, that was no more to be expected than in other branches of service, where gentlemen accepted of employments subject to all the contingencies that belonged to them, and indeed there was the less chance of such a refusal, as, after residing two years in the West Indies, they would also in the same rotation come back again. Amongst the many virtues of his noble friend (lord Grenville) now at the head of the treasury, industry and attention were far from being excluded; and he would pledge his life and reputation, that if the situations of these commissioners should turn out to be mere sinecures, instead of being laborious and operative, the board of treasury would be greatly mistaken in what it was about.
Mr. Rosethen moved an amendment, "that instead of five, there should be only three commissioners."
Lord Castlereaghargued against the clause at considerable length. The principal points he dwelt upon were, that it was an alarming thing for the house to be now called upon to create an additional class of auditors, who, if they were to be operative, would render the final auditors, to whom the country looked for responsibility, a mere sinecure. Upon the whole, he could see only three effects that could arise from it. Either this new creation would embarrass the existing auditors, or they would turn them into sinecures, or be sinecures themselves, in any of which cases he must consider the measure to be mischievous.
Mr. Foxadverted to the observation made, of its being a proof of the patronage, that he had offered these places, though belonging to a department he was uncon-
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nected with. Now, the fact was, that finding there was a difficulty in finding persons worthy of trust, who could be prevailed on to go in this situation to the West Indies, he happened to know two persons whom he thought qualified, to whom he proposed it, and who objected to it. Had they done otherwise, it was surely natural, that he, knowing of these difficulties from persons with whom he was in daily council, should say. "I know one or two persons whom I think duly qualified, and whom you may have, if you are not already provided with better." This could not surely be tortured into an attempt to procure patronage; so far was it from being the case, that, after the bill was passed, if, in looking over the list of commissioners, the gentlemen should find the names of any person recommended by him, he would allow them to draw whatever inference they pleased from it. A right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose) while he accused the present ministers of creating new offices, denied that the Board of Treasury, to which he belonged, had made any such creations, and boldly challenged an investigation of the fact. It was not his purpose at present to enter into that subject; but he could not help observing, that the noble lord near him (lord Castlereagh) carefully abstained from making such a challenge, or holding out any such defiance, notwithstanding all the imputation with which he loaded his majesty's present ministers (observing lord Castlereagh at this time whispering to some member near him, he continued). The noble lord did well to address those about him, as he would find it much easier to convince them, than any other part of the house. The noble lord was too prudent to throw down the gauntlet with the same boldness that was done by the right hon. gent. for if he did, he assured him that he was ready to take it up, or, at least, that it would quickly be taken up by some of his own countrymen, now in the house, who would not scruple to affirm, that if not here, at least in one part of the united kingdom, new places were created, and compensations and sums of money were given in the way that the world called bribes, for purposes of patronage and of corruption. He would not, however, assert, that the consciousness of having done so himself, should prevent the noble lord, as a member of parliament, from arraigning the same practices here: but such an admonition from him should be pre-

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ceded by repentance. Gentlemen opposite, however, did not, he thought, act a very seemly part in thus, upon every occasion, throwing every possible difficulty in the way of every inquiry proposed by the present ministers, though that was but following up with effect what was professed to be the design or their predecessors.
Mr. Percevalsaid, that he and those with whom he acted, acknowledged the propriety of the object intended, but differed as to the mode of doing it. The plan was now to create, 19 auditors, instead of 11, which was the number thought sufficient by the late minister; and in the present pressure of the country, under such a load of taxation, they objected to such an expence, merely for the purpose of patronage. In respect to the attack made upon his noble friend (lord Castlereagh) by the right hon. secreting, he had to observe, that before the proceedings relating to the union with Ireland, which the right hon. secretary condemned so much at the commencement of the session, were arraigned, he would have done well to recollect, that my lord Grenville, with whom he now acted, was then secretary of state, and very active in promoting that very salutary measure. (A cry of hear! hear!) He said he meant not to make any charge against the noble lord on that account, but he doubted if the right hon. secretary (mr. Fox) was dealing fairly by his colleagues and associates, by stating that as improper conduct, which would involve them in the disgrace.
Lord H. Pettywas anxious to rescue the character of his noble friend (lord Grenville) from the imputation of having been party to the disgraceful jobs, and other artifices, employed for the purpose of effecting the union with Ireland. That noble lord, as secretary of state for foreign affairs in England, could not, under the widest ideas of responsibility that could be conceived, be made at all accountable for the corruption practised in Ireland, at the time that Ireland was in independence, and therefore could not be implicated in the conduct of those alluded to by his right hon. friend (Mr. Fox). His lordship then entered into a general defence of the measure before the house, observing, that the new commissioners would have to audit West India accounts to the amount of several millions, which remained unsettled for the last eight years, and that the additional number was required on account of the additional inquiries which still remained
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to be made.—The committee then divided on the amendment; Ayes 41, Noes 91.—Majority 50.

AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.
Lord Templemoved the order of the day for the second reading of the American Intercourse bill.
Mr. percevaldid not think it right that this measure should be now brought forward, the house being already exhausted by a long debate; he, therefore, hoped, that it would be postponed to a future day.
Lord Templefelt the force of what the learned gent. had said; but he did not think it too much to ask, though gentlemen seemed determined to give every opposition to the measures of his majesty's ministers, that the bill should be now read a second time, and that the debate should take place on the Speaker's leaving the chair.
Mr. Percevalcould not agree with the noble lord: he thought the bill of such importance that it should have the fullest discussion; and he thought it probable that he would have to divide the house, not only on the second reading, but also on the question of the Speaker's leaving the chair.
The Speakerreminded the house, that there was a petition on the table against the bill, and that there was an order to hear counsel.
Lord Templesaid he gave way, not to the suggestion of the learned gent. (Mr. Perceval), but to the convenience of the house.
Mr. Roseobserved, that his hon. friend had merely said, that it would not suit the convenience of the house, that a measure of such importance should come on at midnight.
Lord De Blaquieredid not think the noble lord should have spoken with so much warmth, as to tell his learned friend, that he did not give way to his suggestion. The house had a right to debate on every stage of the bill, and he demanded the opportunity.
Mr. Percevalthanked his noble friend, but declared that he did not think the noble lord had spoken so warmly as was supposed.
Lord Templesaid, that any warmth he might have manifested, was entirely owing to the rough manner in which the learned gent. had desired him to postpone the second reading.
Mr. Foxconceived the bill to be highly useful, but could not allow it to be by any means of the importance described. It was by no means a measure of a permanent na-

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ture, but one altogether temporary. Neither was it without a precedent: 2O years ago the Navigation acts, among many others, had been suspended for a longer period, he trusted, than would be necessary on the present occasion.
Mr. Roseexplained that, on that occasion, it was only suspended during the then war. Here it was not for the present war, but a general suspension during every war in which we might be engaged.
Sir C. Pricealso disapproved of the bill.
Mr. Foxdeclared his readiness to confine the bill to the present war; and if his doing so could remove the objections of other gentlemen, who, from misconceiving the effects of the measure, opposed it, he would even consent to limit its duration for a time to be specified, or during the war.—The bill was then ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday.

MINUTES.
In the appeal Seymour v. the earl of Euston and lord Henry Seymour, Mr. Richards was heard for the respondents, after which the further consideration of it was postponed till the next day.—The royal assent was given by commission to the Property Duty bill, the Irish Sugar bill, the Irish Stamp Duties bill, the Irish Additional Force Repeal bill, and several private bills. The commissioners were the lord Chancellor, lord Walsingham, and lord Auckland.—Lord H.Petty, and several other members of the house of commons, brought up a message, stating that the house of commons requested a conference with their lordships, on a subject in which the reputation of the country, and the interests of humanity, justice, and sound policy, were deeply concerned. The house agreed to a conference presently in the painted chamber, of which the messengers from the commons being called in, were informed. A committee was appointed to manage the conference.—The house being informed that the commons waited the conference in
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the painted chamber, the committee appointed to manage it, consisting of the duke of Norfolk, earls of Radnor and Romney, lord Falmouth, the bishop of St. Asaph, lords Holland, Keith, Dundas, Ellenborough and Lauderdale, went forth to the painted chamber. Shortly afterwards they returned; when the duke of Norfolk reported that the commons had communicated to them a certain resolution relative to the Abolition of the Slave Trade.

MUTINY BILL.
The order being read, for going into a committee on the above bill, the house resolved itself into the same accordingly, lord Walsingham in the chair.—After a short previous conversation, of an explanatory nature, between the earls of Westmoreland and Spencer, as to the regular mode of discussing the provision or enactment of the bill, which it appeared was in one of the schedules,
The Earl of Westmorelandrose, and in a speech of considerable length, expressed his objections to the clause alluded to. He contended that it was an invasion of the royal prerogative, inasmuch as it prescribed the exact term for which men should be enlisted to serve in the army, and precluded his majesty from enlisting men upon any other condition. This was an abridgement of the power and an infringement of the prerogative of the crown, by taking from the king that power over the army which had hitherto been constitutionally vested in the crown. A measure too which went to change the whole constitution of the army, was introduced in the shape of a clause in the Mutiny bill, thus leaving that house no choice but between the dangerous nature of the experiment attempted to be tried, and the inconveniencies which would result from the disorganization of the army in consequence of not passing the Mutiny bill. Thus also would his majesty be called upon to sacrifice a material portion of his power and his prerogative, because it would be said that the Mutiny bill must be passed or else the army could not be kept together. Those who on a former occasion advised his majesty not to give his assent to a bill which went to abridge the king's prerogative, but the refusal to sanction which only left things as they were, could not now say that no other consequence would result than leaving things as they were, they might say, your ministers have made a bill different to that which your majesty ordered to be brought in, but a Mutiny bill must be sanctioned or the army cannot exist.
Earl Spencerspoke to order. The noble

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earl had, he said, no right to state, that his majesty had ordered a bill to be brought in.
The Earl of Westmorelandproceeded. The present measure was, he said, of the same character with those before proposed by an administration, in which it was said so much of the talent and ability of the country was concentrated. To judge of their measures ex pede Herculem, it was Hercules With his club, acting the part of a destroyer, and not as a renovator; former measures were done away and destroyed, but where were the substitutes? He professed the highest respect for the noble lord at the head of his majesty's government, for his ability, his integrity, and his anxious desire to serve his country. For the head of the administration he had the highest respect, but he did not like the stern of it; he did not like the principles of the stern; he feared their operation. With respect to the measure which was more immediately the subject of deliberation in the committee, wonderful effects, it had been predicted, would be produced by its operation. It had been said in other places, that the condition of the army would be improved, its strength increased, that bounties would decrease, and desertions be diminished. He did not believe that any such benefits would result from the measure. How was it possible, that under the proposed regulations relative to limited service, the army could be kept up? Taking the whole number of the army at 200,000 men, enlisted for limited service, as proposed, at the end of 7 years, and every year afterwards a seventh part of that number must be discharged, amounting to about 28,000 men; this, added to the waste of men in the course of a year, amounting to about 12,000, would make up the number of 40,000 men to be recruited every year, and how was it possible to raise such a number of men in this country in the course of one year? He was thoroughly convinced that the army could not be kept up in that manner without having recourse to a military conscription, or some compulsory measure of that description. Such a measure as that now proposed would, besides, give rise to a system of continual recruiting, drunkenness, and canvas for the purpose of inducing men whose terms were near expiring to enlist again. He begged pardon for trespassing so long upon the committee and preventing the noble master general of the ordnance (ld Moira) from rising, who he was sure would oppose this measure and would tell their lordships that by the effect of this measure the artillery would be destroyed; who would tell them that men in that corps, from
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the experience they gained in the course of 7 years of service, became expert engineers, and were capable of obtaining great emolument in various ways, and who would not therefore stay a moment longer than the expiration of the first term of service. That noble lord would therefore doubtless tell the Committee, that under the operation of such a measure the artillery could not be kept up. What, likewise, would be the effect upon our colonial service? Was he to understand that in the West Indies, after giving 70l. or 80l. for slaves to form black regiments, that those persons, after their terms of service had expired, were to be thrown loose upon society, and under the measure now proposed, his majesty would not have the power to retain them? How, also, would it affect the troops sent out to our colonies? It would be impossible for the commanders to ascertain with any precision the number of men it would be necessary continually to replace; they might send for a number of men instead of those whose terms were near expiring, whilst in the mean time those whose terms of service were longer, might be carried off by disease. The regiments also, whose terms of service were near expiring, would hesitate to go to a distant clime on any emergency. Another objection also arose from the effect which such a measure would have upon the army as already constituted. Men whose services were for life could scarcely see without jealousy others by their side whose terms of service were continually expiring, and who Were thus enabled to return to their families. These objections pressed forcibly on his mind, and operated directly against this measure, which had been rejected after mature deliberation by his right hon. friend deceased (Mr. Pitt), who was then at the head of administration; and he trusted the modern Alexanders would pay some respect to the plans of Philip. He concluded by moving to leave out all the words of the oath which contained the limitation of service.
Earl Spencersaid, he wished to state shortly to their lordships the reasons which induced him to support the proposed plan of limited service. He thought, in reasoning upon this subject, that it was impossible to draw any other conclusion, than that men would be much more readily induced to enlist into the army for 7 or for 10 years, with the prospect of being enabled to return to their families at the expiration of that period, crowned with laurels, and enjoying those benefits which this measure held out to them, than to enlist for life, and of course without

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any such prospect. It was a necessary conclusion drawn from experience and observation of human nature. The relations and friends of those inclined to enlist would besides rather encourage, or at least not throw obstacles in the way of such an inclination as they were disposed to do under the present system, where the man was taken from them for life. The operation of this principle would, he thought, continue to fill the ranks of the army in succession, as the terms of service of others expired, and would induce many of a better class to enlist where there was a certainty of their being enabled to return to the bosom of their families, or resort to other occupations, at the expiration of a certain fixed period. The noble lord had argued as if it would become impossible if the present measure was carried into effect, to have men for a longer period of service; but surely there was in this case no obstacle, the man enlisted for the first term of service might again enlist for the next term, and continue to engage himself for the remainder of his life. The noble lord, in the beginning of his speech, had,argued, that this measure was an invasion of the king's prerogative. It was certainly true that the power of the sword, as it was called, rested with the king; but it unquestionably belonged to parliament to limit that power. There were acts of parliament on the statute book which actually prescribed the exact term for which certain troops therein mentioned should be raised, and beyond which there was no power to retain them. This was the case in two acts, one of the 18th Geo. II. and the other the 29th Geo. II. in the latter of which a certain force was to be raised for 5 years; and it was remarkable that the year in which this was done, 1756, was the first year of the seven-years war, and that the five years consequently expired before the termination of that war, yet no reference was made to that circumstance. Many other acts might be quoted, most of which were in their lordships' recollection, and therefore he would not state them, the object of which was to raise troops for limited service. It had therefore clearly been the practice of parliament to limit, in this respect, the prerogative of the crown, and nothing more was attempted in the principle of this measure than what had been done before by parliament upon various occasions. He was clearly of opinion that this measure would operate to decrease the bounties and diminish desertion. Men would be induced to enlist for a certain and fixed term, and that not a long one, for a much less sum
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than when the enlistment was for life; and as to desertion there would certainly be less temptation to desert when the soldier was sure of returning to his family at the expiration of that period; and when, besides that, in case of desertion, he would lose all the benefits which otherwise would attach, if he conducted himself well during his period of service. As to expence, he did not think there was any objection, as he had no idea that the expence of raising men in the manner proposed could be nearly s great as the mode of raising them at present followed, whilst at the same time there was every reason to believe, that the vacancies occasioned by the expiration of the terms of service would be easily filled up from the operation of those principle in the minds of men which were always operative, and which would meet with a stimulus from the effect of the measure now proposed, As to the noble lord's observation upon his majesty's ministers, he should merely say, that he contributed his humble abilities to the service of his country, in conjunction with those with whom he had the honour to act, and whom, he was confident, were only actuated by an anxious zeal to promote the welfare and happiness of their country.
Lord Boringdomargued against the clause, on the ground of its being unnecessary, and not called for by the state of the army. At any rate, he thought that the measure ought rather to have originated as a boon from his majesty, in which case it might have been first tried upon a small scale, than to be at once extended to the whole constitution of the army. The measure also appeared to him defective, inasmuch as there was no provision made for those who, by being disbanded at the conclusion of a war, were precluded from serving the whole of their term of service; and he thought it was a little too much to say that they were to pass this measure, and leave it to ministers to bring other measures forward afterwards to correct its defects.
The Earl of Carnarvondeprecated the doctrine which had been attempted to be set up, of the power of the sword vesting in the crown without the controul of parliament. The command of the army undoubtedly vested in the crown, but the limitation of the military force of the kingdom unquestionably remained with parliament. He considered the present measure as tending materially to improve the condition of the army, and not liable to any of those objections which had been raised against it.
The Duke of Montroseopposed the clause,

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as limiting the exercise of the royal prerogative. He conceived that it would operate as a bounty to induce men to leave the regiment to which they belonged, at the expiration of their term of service, since by doing so, they might be entitled to as large a bounty as they had at first received, by entering into another regiment. He contended, that, in the present state of society, a better description of men would not, in consequence of limited service, be induced to enter the army.
The Duke of Gloucesterwarmly supported the measure. Many officers of eminence and reputation with whom he had conversed, in those counties in which he had travelled, had given their opinions decidedly in favour of limited service, which they considered as productive of the most beneficial consequences to an army. He was also decidedly of the same opinion, and he considered such a mode of enlistment as peculiarly congenial to this country, where freedom was the birthright of its inhabitants, where the love of freedom animated them in all their contests and inspirited all their exertions. Nothing was more clearly convincing to his mind than that enlistment for a fixed term of years, as proposed in the present measure, would operate as a strong inducement to many who would not otherwise venture to enlist; and when they returned to their homes and related the battles in which they had been engaged, the glories which had been achieved, the laurels they had won, and the benefits they had received, it would be a still stronger inducement for their younger relatives to enter into a service where they had the same prospects of honour and reward, and returning in the same manner to their families. If only ten men in a regiment returned in this way to their families, the benefit to the army produced by this means would be incalculable.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, that the plans hitherto tried had failed effectually to recruit the army. It was therefore necessary to resort to some new means of effecting that desirable object, and upon this principle he supported the present measure, which seemed to promise the accomplishment of a purpose so much wished for.
Earl Camdenopposed the measure, and warmly supported the amendment.
The Earl of Limerickcontended, that our colonial service was peculiarly incompatible with limited service, since before the soldier became seasoned to the climate, he might become entitled to his discharge; and thus our colonies might be perpetually
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supplied with raw soldiers, to whom the climate was peculiarly fatal. From his own experience he had found, that were a higher description of persons to enter the army, it would not contribute to its subordination and discipline. He had found, that those who could read and write were often the most troublesome, and most inclined to faction. Besides, it was not to be supposed that those who had enjoyed the comforts of life would readily submit, without murmuring and discontent, to those privations to which the soldier must necessarily be exposed.
Lord kingobserved, that it was not wished to introduce a higher class of men into the army, but only the more considerate and reflecting of that class, who now entered it as soldiers. This would add both to the numbers and discipline of the army.
The Earl of Buckinghamshiresupported the bill in its present shape, which, in fact, he thought no more militated against the royal prerogative, than any of the Mutiny bills their lordships were in the habit of passing yearly.
Lord Hardwickeopposed it, and noticed the slight effects produced by limited service during the American war, as a proof that little was to be expected from this new system.
Lord Rosslynthought, that the only way of rendering unnecessary the present high bounties, and of removing the odium under which the military life so generally laboured, was by ameliorating the condition of the soldier, and this the present clause was eminently calculated to promote. High bounties were one great cause of the desertions which had so much prevailed of late, and if the cause were removed, which could only be done by some measure similar to the present, the effect would cease of course. At present, nothing but the event of his being disabled, could give the soldier the hope of retirement; and it was not to be expected, that considerate men, or indeed any but the thoughtless, or those driven by necessity, would prefer being tied up for life, to limited service. As to canvassing between the officer and soldier, he was confident, that British officers would never degrade themselves by permitting any relaxation of discipline, to induce their men to continue in the service. They were convinced, that the attachment of the soldier could only be gained by fair and liberal conduct, and by the strict and impartial exercise of discipline.
Lord Hawkesburydeclared, that notwith-

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standing all he had heard from the noble earl who had spoken last, and the other noble lords who preceded him, (and the opinions of some of them he knew were entitled to considerable weight) notwithstanding all the arguments which he had heard so ably advanced, in support of the system which was to be founded on a clause in the bill now before their lordships, he had not heard reasons stated, which were capable of effacing from his mind the impression which it had previously received, namely, that this was, in its very essence, a most dangerous, and might possibly be in its consequences, an almost ruinous system. Artillery, cavalry, and infantry, foreigners and native subjects, white men and blacks were all to be disbanded at the expiration of the term of seven years. He was well aware that it was utterly impossible that any thing like a general discharge could take place at any given time; but then it was within the line of probability that great numbers would have completed their term of service nearly at the same time, and must necessarily be discharged just at the eve of the breaking out of a war. This would be such a case as would most seriously affect the interest (though he would always place the utmost confidence in the loyalty and bravery) of the nation, yet it was possible that the occurrence of such an event might endanger the safety of the country. It was wise and politic for statesmen to be guarded at all times against even a distant possibility of such danger, and he conceived it to be unwise and impolitic in ministers to make such an innovation on our military system as this was, during a period of war. The manner he thought peculiarly liable to censure, as by the system being introduced in the form of a clause in the Mutiny bill, which was within ten days of expiring, their lordships must either agree to this plan, or subject themselves to the painful feeling that they had left the state without a mutiny bill at a period of war.
Lord Hollandobserved, that after the able and elegant speech which had been made in favour of the measure by the illustrious person whom he had in his eye (the duke of Gloucester), a speech which must have made an indelible impression on the minds of all who heard it, he was surprised that the noble lords on the other side should have persisted in their objections. He then adverted to the necessity of increasing our army, in opposition to a noble lord who had said that our disposable force was already great enough. In order to attain this ob-
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ject, we must now have recourse to a measure simple in itself, but likely to be most powerful in its effects, after all the nostrums which had been tried and had failed. This country ought to have more than its money to depend upon in order to secure it from danger, and to maintain its respectability. The effects of subsidies had already been seen. It had been said that this country was now in the zenith of its glory. It might be so, perhaps, for it was one of the effects of a burning sun to have no shadow, and certainly our sun had lately left no shadow of glory to those upon whom it had lately shone. A noble lord had compared our volunteers, for whom he certainly had the greatest respect, to the Macedonian's phalanx. The comparison was not a happy one, but we had undoubtedly lately followed the system of Philip, and depended more on our gold than on the force of our arms. There was this difference, however, that his gold led to victory, ours to defeat. He denied that this was any infringement of the prerogative, which no one could be more anxious to defend than he would be, because he thought that its security was necessary for the safety of the liberties of the people. It had been said by some noble lords, that the present ministers had got into the Elysium, for which they had long been anxious, and that they could not conduct themselves with moderation. The noble lords on the other side were in the seats of sorrow and suffering; but they were not, it appeared, without some consolation, for one of them had hinted a sort of hope that ministers might do something which would restore him to his fields again. When his friends therefore should be disposed to solicit his favour, he might, perhaps, console them as Falstaff did justice Shallow, when in great anxiety about his thousand pounds—"Trust me, Master Shallow, I shall be sent for anon." But as those who were in Elysium were said to be employed in the same pursuits which engaged their attention while alive, so ministers followed the same course which they had recommended when their recommendation had not such a good chance of being attended to. He defended the measure on the grounds of its humanity, as it would almost remove the temptation to desertion, and the punishments consequent upon it. It would improve the character of the army, and spread a great number of veterans over the country, who would be of the greatest service in case of its being the seat of war. It was not a mere speculative theory, for the thing had been

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tried and found effectual in other countries. As to the colonial service, he mentioned that in the Spanish army, those only who enlisted for a limited period were sent to the colonies. He concluded by expressing his conviction that this measure would produce the most essential advantages.
The Earl of Moira,in allusion to what had fallen from a noble earl (Westmoreland) early in the debate, begged to express his thanks to the noble earl for the speech he had been so good as to make for him, as expressive of the terrors he was supposed to feel for the ruin of the artillery corps from this measure. He really did not recollect that he had ever entertained any such sentiments, and he trusted noble lords would do him the justice to believe the language was not his. He really had no such terrors; and so far was he from having cause to feel such apprehensions, that he was convinced nothing would be a greater punishment to an artillery-man, than to dismiss him from the service, and deprive him of the many advantageous prospects of preferment in his view. The boys now inlisted for the artillery service, were turned over to the battalions as they attained proper size, and were of course enlisted for life. The term of 12 years limitation could only operate on those who enlisted hereafter, and could have no effect for 12 years to come; and with respect to the general term of limited enlistment, he would read a letter to their lordships from experienced and practical, not from speculative authority, from a general officer now in our service, but formerly, and for 20 years, in the service of the nation in Europe most analogous to our own, namely, that of Holland. This letter stated, that during 20 years of that officer's service, there were 72 battalions of the Dutch army, serving both at home and in their distant colonies, in which it was the uniform practice to enlist the men for limited periods of 3, 6, and 9 years, without any other stipulations than that their discharges should only be demanded in the month of October, or at the end of a campaign, consequently during a war; and that no inconvenience whatever had arisen from the usage. He then adverted to the wonderful effects which the seats on the opposite side seemed to have had on some of the noble lords, when they produced sentiments and feelings so unusual. As to the point of the prerogative, that had been so clearly treated by the illustrious person near him (the duke of Gloucester), that it was scarcely necessary to say thing further
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about it. He expressed his satisfaction at having heard from a person of his high rank, a speech which displayed such a truly British spirit; a spirit which he hoped this measure would spread over the country. A noble lord had rather indiscreetly hinted that a certain personage ought to have those about him who would be anxious to preserve the prerogative unimpaired—he said, rather indiscreetly, because the hint almost entirely destroyed the merit which he might have otherwise claimed for his zeal for the prerogative. As to the military opinions of officers, he thought that it would not have been proper to have produced them, for it would be natural for other officers to ask, Who were the favoured few who were thus consulted and whose opinions were to regulate the army? But in measures of this sort, officers ought not to be taught that their opinions were to guide the conduct of government or that of parliament. The distinctive character of soldiers ought always to be preserved. They ought always to be taught to keep in mind that they were the instruments to execute, and not the springs to set in motion. If you invited them often to that house, you would find that they would at last come without being invited. They would first come by petition and then by remonstrance. He concluded by stating the necessity of having a larger regular army than we had ever had before, and by expressing his conviction that in order to secure this desirable object the present plan was the only one which offered even a chance of success.
Lord Mulgraveexpressed his astonishment at the opinion expressed by the noble lord, who was himself a soldier, and of justly high character, as to what might be the consequence to, or the disposition excited in the minds of military men, by being called to give their evidence at their lordships' bar; and he totally denied the justice of the inference. With respect to the bill, he was a friend to its principle, but feared it would be inefficacious, and ought only to be tried partially as an, experiment.
Lord Grenvillerose with the sincerest satisfaction to recommend most earnestly to their lordships the adoption of a measure of which, for many years past, he had entertained the most perfect conviction, that it was the only measure likely to become permanently efficacious in keeping up the necessary force of the country, under the unfortunate necessity that of late years had been imposed upon the countries of Europe, of keeping up large armies; and as most

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congenial to the spirit and feelings of Englishmen. It had been asked early in the debate, what statesman with a statesman's mind, had ever proposed to any country such a measure for adoption? He would declare the statesman on whose authority he would offer the measure. It was that consummate statesman (Mr. Pitt) whose irreparable loss the country so recently had to deplore. It was from him that he had learned the principle. It was one which he knew occupied his great mind, and was decisive in his opinion for very many years. There was not a single argument that had been offered against the bill in the course of this debate, that had not been urged by himself against the principle to that great statesman, in repeated discussions between them on this subject, and that was not ably and convincingly answered by his right hon. and lamented friend. He had considered, with the most mature deliberation, the subject over and over again, and the more he considered it, the more thoroughly was he convinced of its propriety. As to the measure being an invasion of the royal prerogative, he was astonished to hear it asserted, particularly by those who had had so much share in the military measures of the last four years. Could it be pretended that any army which was to be maintained in this country could be maintained independently of parliamentary sanction and controul? The king incontestibly and by the first principles of the constitution possessed the command of every species of military force; but that force was subject to the regulations of pay, controul, &c. which parliament directed. Nay, after we had seen that the very regulations as to limited service had been adopted as to what constituted peculiarly our home defence, would it be pretended that it was unconstitutional that the regular army, that which might be employed abroad, should be enlisted on terms which had been sanctioned in the other? It was in vain therefore to say, that this was an invasion of the royal prerogative, and hostile to the constitution. Indeed, after the able and convincing speech of an illustrious person (the duke of Gloucester) that night, it was clear what were the sentiments entertained by every branch of the family on the throne on this point. Never since that illustrious house sat on the throne had any pretention been countenanced of an army not subject to parliamentary controul.—His lordship then entered into a consideration of several of the objections, particularly as
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to the expence of the plan. He argued that it might be assumed as a doctrine, that of the persons surviving at the different periods when their service expired, one half would re-enlist. Of 120,000 men at the average casualty of one in twelve, 10,000 men a year were necessary; which would be 200,000l. calculating that one half re-enlisted, there would only be 16,000 wanted a year, and that not till the expiration of 15 years, and the additional part of the expence could not occur in full extent till after 30, so that the whole benefit was obtained before the expence of recruiting commenced. Thus, instead of two or three millions, the expence of recruiting would not be above 200,000l. at first, or afterwards 300,000l. at 20l. a man. As to the expence of future provision, it was grossly exaggerated, and if there was any addition of expence, it was a fair remuneration to the veteran, which, in consideration of the expence of living, &c. would, independently of this measure, have been fairly due. In a constitutional view too, the measure was highly advantageous as giving the soldier new motives of attachment to the civil liberties of the country, to which he would always look with a consciousness that they were his. The peculiar advantage of this measure, too, was, that it was clear, short, and intelligible. The people of this country could not mistake it. It would teach them, by a sort of knowledge, that a soldier was not placed for life in a situation different from the rest of the community, but that after having served his country, he was at liberty to re-enter the civil state if he pleased. The measure required no lawyer to explain it; it demanded no recruiting officer to catechise parish officers. It called upon no secretary of state to read voluminous lectures on acts of parliament; but would impress itself on the feelings of the people at large, and while it increased the numbers of the army, would preserve and increase its constitutional spirit. His lordship concluded by expressing his strongest approbation of the measure as simple, constitutional and efficient.—The Committee then divided on the clause: For it 91: Against it 34. Majority 57.—The house was then resumed, the report received and agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Monday.