Sitting of 12 June 1806

MINUTES.
Mr. Alderman Combsbrought in a bill for altering and amending the London Docks act, so far as related to compensation, which was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time.—Petitions were brought up from the inhabitants of Stoke Newington, the inhabitants of Stratford-le-Bow, and the inhabitants of Christ Church, against the East London Water Works bill, which were severally ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Vansittart brought up the Additional Assessed Tax Duty bill, which was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow.—The Irish Linen Drawback bill went through a committee, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.

ACCOUNTS RELATING TO FOREIGN CORPS.
Mr. Rosemoved for the production of some unaudited accounts in the department of the secretary at war, namely, those of a gentleman named Lukin, a relation of Mr. Windham, and on whom that right hon. gent. while secretary at war, had conferred an employment in the department relating to foreign troops; and also for the unaudited accounts of Mr. Wickham, while attendant on the armies of our allies on the Continent, during the last war. The right hon. gent. in moving for these papers, made some allusions to the oddity of the circumstance, that Mr. Lukin, who was the relation of the right hon. gent. at the head of the war department, should have his accounts audited and settled by the secretary at war, instead of being referred to the auditors of public accounts: and with respect to Mr. Wickham, he observed, that it was pretty extraordinary, that that right hon. gent. who acted as commissary on the Continent during the last war, and whose accounts, to a very large amount, were yet unsettled, should be one of the loudest in cheering the proposition of the noble lord opposite to him, for establishing his new commission of audit, on the day he brought it forward; and as so much pains had been taken by his majesty's present ministers to cast an odium on the conduct of their predecessors, and to charge them with criminal neglect for suffering such an accumulation Of unaudited accounts to grow under their authority, he thought it right the house should see that all this accumulation had not been wholly imputable to those ministers who were now out of office, but that right hon. gentlemen who were so strenuous in impeaching the neglect of others, had themselves incurred no inconsiderable share of the blame, if any was fairly imputable,

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He concluded with moving, "That there be laid before this house, an Account of the Amount of the sums issued in each year to Robert Lukin, esq. as agent to Foreign Corps, between the years 1794 and 1801, under the several heads for which the issues were made, and shewing when the accounts of the receipt and expenditure thereof were delivered to the secretary at war, and when the same were examined in his office; and also, Copies of all Proceedings and Correspondence of the lords commissioners of the treasury, the war office, the commissioners for auditing public accounts, and Mr. Lukin, respecting the department in which the accounts should be audited; shewing likewise the amount of the balance finally appearing upon the said accounts."
Lord H. Pettysaid, that as he did not mean to object to the production of these papers, he would appeal to the candour of the right hon. gent. as the names of two gentlemen were mentioned in these papers, whether it would not be fair that he should assign some reason for moving for them, or at least say, whether he meant to inculpate either of them for any part of their conduct in the transactions to which these papers related?
Mr. Rosesaid, the noble lord had lately stated to the house his intention to bring forward a new commission, in which he had mentioned the name of Mr. Trotter in a very particular manner. Why, therefore, should the noble lord thus call on him to know if he had any intention of inculpating either of the gentlemen mentioned in those papers? but he had no hesitation in saying, he did not mean to inculpate either of them. With respect to Mr. Lukin, there had been a very large sum of money issued to him by the then secretary at war, who was his relation, and he understood that gentleman had conceived a doubt, to whom he should account for that money, and had said he was accountable for it only to the secretary at war. He moved for the papers on public grounds, because he thought they would be found to contain information necessary for the house, and to which, as a member, he had a right. He could assure the noble lord, that if ever he should contemplate a charge against any man, or any member of administration, while he had the honour of a seat in that house, he should bring it forward candidly, manfully, and directly, not insidiously, or by a side-wind.
Mr. Secretary Windhamobserved, that not withstanding the right hon. gents'. specious
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professions of candour and manliness, he had, on several occasions, endeavoured to let loose unwarrantable insinuations; and that, upon this occasion in particular, he had by a side-wind, and under the pretence of moving upon public grounds for public documents, offered an insinuation of the lowest class or description, and such as ought to awaken only the lowest class of feelings. It was true, one of the gentlemen he had so pointedly alluded to was his relation, and he obtained for him the post alledged. In this he did not conceive himself have departed from the constant usage of office; for if men, on coming into office, had relations, friends, or connections, as competent to subordinate employments as perfect strangers could be, he not only thought it admissible, but perfectly right, and in some measure, incumbent upon them, to provide for persons of such description. But did the right hon. gent. presume to say, or would he venture even to avow an insinuation, that he (Mr. W.) had, on this account, acted towards Mr. Lukin, his relation, with any degree of partiality or indulgence, different from what he should have done by any other man? he believed, the right hon. gent. with all his candour and boldness, would not venture such an assertion. He was not responsible for the conduct of Mr. Lukin, or of the other gentleman who had been mentioned, though he was confident, that he might very safely assume such a responsibility, as he was sure their conduct and their accounts, would be found perfectly correct. But it so happened, that the circumstances were not as insinuated by the right hon. gent. that Mr. Lukin's accounts were settled while he was in office; it was a considerable time after. Mr. Lukin's anxiety to have his accounts settled in
the office with which his business was transacted, and where, he was always told, his accounts would be settled, instead of being handed over to the auditors of public accounts, liable to all the delays he would have there to encounter, was but a very natural feeling; and on his (Mr. Windham's) quitting office, Mr. Lukin certainly did solicit him to use his influence to have the settlement of those accounts expedited; but he had declined all interference, and told Mr. Lukin they must take their course in the ordinary way. He had no objection to the production of the papers, but a great one to the manner in which the right hon. gent. had conveyed his insinuation.
Mr. Rose"That there be

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laid before this house, an Account of money issued in each year to Messrs. Thornton and Power, of Hamburgh, or to any other person or persons, which were by them, or any of them, paid over to the right hon. William Wickham, or to some person or persons, to be expended under his authority; shewing the amount of the total sums for each head of service, and by whom the same is to be accounted for."
Mr. Wickham(who, on account of some infirmity in his leg, was permitted to speak sitting) felt it necessary, after the pointed allusion made to himself, to explain his conduct. The official situation in which he was placed during the continental war, was not, as stated by the rt. hon. gent. that of a commissary. He was attached to the army of the archduke as his majesty's plenipotentiary, and was charged with negotiations for subsidizing troops. For the pay of those troops, he was officially acquainted, that a large sum of money was deposited in the Bank of Hamburgh, upon which drafts were to be given monthly for the pay of the troops. In the treaties which he had formed for those subsidiary forces, every thing relating to pay, from the general down to the private, and every thing respecting forage and other contingencies, were minutely stipulated; and he had repeatedly written home to his government, urging the necessity of sending out able commissaries, to be constantly attached to these foreign regiments, and to see that their musters were correct, with powers to draw upon the Hamburgh bank. In answer to which, his instructions were, that the responsibility. of drawing for money would not be vested in any commissary; but that he (Mr. W.) must take the superintendance of such issues; and after receiving the necessary certificates, signed by the commissaries, he must then, under his own hand, empower the commissaries to draw upon the bank at Hnmburgh. This was a duty not of his seeking, but imposed upon him without even asking his assent it formed a very laborious increase to the arduous duties with which he had been already charged. He undertook it however, cheerfully, as he would have done one more arduous, for the public service. But he felt himself placed in a predicament in which no man of honour or feeling in his situation would wish to stand: not as officially accredited, the plenipotentiary of his majesty, in a diplomatic department, but as a check or controul upon the acting commissaries, and with a share of care and
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responsibility superadded to his other avocations. He had long felt the most earnest solicitude to have his accounts audited. He knew many other gentlemen in the same predicament, and some who, after waiting a series of years, had been obliged to go abroad on foreign stations, leaving their accounts still unpassed; and it was from his personal feelings of satisfaction, as well as his public sense of the utility and advantages of the system proposed by the noble chancellor of the exchequer for expediting the auditing of public accounts, that he had been zealous in cheering that system in a manner so peculiarly unpleasing to the right hon. gentleman.
Mr Roseexpressed his assurance, that no man could be more accurate than the right hon. gent. who had rendered very considerable services to his country.
Mr. Secretary Fox,after some animadversions on the candour, manliness, and purity of the right hon. gent. opposite to him, (Mr. Rose) begged to observe, that the expenditures about which he seemed now so solicitous, and the delay of accounting for which had excited so much of his disapprobation, must have been some years officially known to the right hon. gent. If there was any thing improper or illegal in the manner of those expenditures being accounted for, why, he would ask, had not the right hon. gent. in his great anxiety for rectitude, long since moved for their production?—The papers were then ordered.

CHELSEA HOSPITAL BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of the bill,
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he felt such strong objections to the measure, that he hoped the house would indulge him by allowing him to state his opinion in this late stage, as shortly as possible. The noble lord then inveighed against the bill, as a measure originally objectionable from the number of utterly inadmissable clauses with which it as charged; but, as now reduced to a skeleton by the expunging of those clauses, it contained no one feature of any fundamental principle, for improving the situation of the soldier, which was not before in the power of his majesty. So far, then, it was a mere caput mortuum; but in every thing else it was worse than nothing; for it would not only trench upon the prerogative of the crown, like the other military bills of the right hon. gent. by taking away from the discretion of his majesty those regulations which should come from the crown

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as boons and favours of the sovereign to encourage good conduct in the soldier, but by giving that soldier a definitive, positive, and legal claim to those boons and favours, stipulated at his inlistment, it would encourage indiscipline, and a spirit of independence of the approbation of his superiors, at all times the very soul of discipline, and in this respect it would prove also a hotbed for the produce of law-suits. No such attempt to tamper with the army of the country had ever been made since the time of the Long Parliament previous to the Revolution of 1641. The bill, too, as it stood, held out a fallacious enactment to the recruit. Another objection was, that there had been no estimate whatever laid before the house, as to the probable expence, nor any explanation given by the right hon. gent. as to his own view of the subject, or in what manner he proposed to carry the bill into effect. Thus, the house was called upon to vote in the dark, and to hold itself up to the ridicule of the country, along with the authors of the measure, and to involve in their disgrace and contempt those members, as parties to the measure, who bad strenuously opposed it. The right hon. gent. who, for three years past, had made the alledged imperfections and absurdities of the existing military system the constant theme of his animadversion, and who, it might have been reasonably supposed, would be prepared with a faultless system of his own, to offer the moment he had an opportunity; yet now, after a delay of three or four months deliberation and invention; after having caused his colleague the secretary at war, to bring forward no less than four successive mutiny bills, upon as many different estimates, to give further time for the grand measure, after all came forward with a system so complicated, so unintelligible, so unsatisfactory even to himself, so impracticable, and so subversive of that old established and long-tried system, by which the military glory of this realm had been maintained, as to excite universal disapprobation out of doors and that of a great portion of the best informed members within those walls. But, the noble lord said, he did not mean to give the right hon. gent. who brought forward this bill, an exclusive monopoly for that systematic absurdity, to the participation of which his colleagues had established so many obvious and unquestionable claims: the same system of slovenly cobbling and bungling marked all their measures of financial and
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commercial arrangement. Here the noble lord adverted to the Pig-Iron tax, and Private Brewery tax, the first obstinately maintained and then abandoned; to the recurrence to old systems of taxation, instead of any thing new being provided; to the obnoxious modification in the Property tax; the American Intercourse, and the Slave Trade Prohibition bills. The oldest members of that house had not known business so unsatisfactorily transacted as during the last three months (hear! hear! from the opposition bench), and that by a set of men who had made themselves singularly conspicuous for their censure of the measures of their predecessors.—The noble lord was proceeding to expatiate on those several measures, when he was called to order by
Mr. Hawthorne,who said that such observations were totally irrelevant to the bill before the house.
Lord Castlereaghresumed, however, his observations, and was again called to order by,
Sir W. Young,who observed, that if the noble lord was to be indulged in this field of allusions to former measures and debates, and in the repetition of arguments urged a hundred times before, and served up in almost every discussion that had occurred within the last two monts, a precedent would be created which would really render it imposible to go on with the public business. The noble lord might as properly expect to be allowed to read, as part of his speech, a volume or two of the Parliamentary History of the country. He put it to the noble lord's discretion, whether some consideration was not due to the time and patience of the house? or whether the attendance of members was to be protracted in this manner, night after night, to unseasonable hours, in the unnecessary, and he might almost say, captious repetition of such discussions? If the hon. baronet was unsuccessful in the appeal to the discretion of the noble lord, he would appeal to the authority of the Chair.—(Hear! hear! hear! from the ministerial side of the house.)
Lord Castlereaghrose again, and concluded by observing, that if he was disposed to trespass upon the attention of the house, by uttering all he felt, and exposing all the inconsistencies and absurdities that challenged observation in the conduct of his majesty's ministers, the hon. baronet might indeed have cause to complain of the length of his speech, which might last for some days; he would, however, relieve the

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hon. baronet, by abstaining at present from adding more, than that our history presented no period similar to that since the appointment of the present ministers, so marked by procrastination, inconsistency, and bungling on their parts, and in which so little real business had been done. For his own part, he should feel it a disgrace to be a member of any administration marked by such conduct.
Mr. Secretary Windhamobserved, that the noble lord had made a speech which it was extremely difficult to answer, not on account of the logical precision and clearness of the noble lord's positions, or the convincing force of his arguments, for of those properties in the noble lord's eloquence he really had no perception; but it was very possible to make a speech composed of heterogeneous materials, like that of the noble lord, and so inconsistent and contradictory in itself, as to be extremely difficult to be answered in a regular way. The noble lord's speech on this occasion, and which would do just as well for any other, exhibited a melange of all those topics of assertions and arguments, which had been used by himself and his friends so repeatedly of late, and so repeatedly and completely refuted, that he did not mean to follow the noble lord round the sort of grand tour he had made, feeling, as he did, some consideration for the patience of the house. The noble lord had talked much of the military plans he had introduced, and had talked of this bill having been preceded by four mutiny bills; and he had adverted to this assertion nearly as often as four times four, like the story of the four pilgrims, or, as if there were some peculiar virtue or conjuration in four, like the mystic number of Pythagoras. But he begged to remind the noble lord, that there were but two mutiny bills for that period, brought forward upon grounds with which the house seemed very well pleased; and he begged to ask the noble lord what injury had accrued to the country, or inconvenience to the public service, from the manner of passing those bills? The present bill was said, at one time, to do the most alarming mischief, and the next moment it was a mere skeleton, a caput mortuum, and did nothing, or worse than nothing: at one time it was totally inefficient, and again it was most mischievously efficient. It was at first utterly inadmissible, on account of certain obnoxious clauses, and now it seems it was rendered much worse by the expunging of those clauses,
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Now really, with all due deference to the profound logic and consistent precision of the noble lord, these were properties which could not by possibility exist in the same measure. The bill, in a committee, had certainly undergone considerable alterations. It had been reduced in point of volume and extent; but it was thereby rendered more compact and precise, and therefore more simple in its operation: but, perhaps, the noble lord thought this an imperfection, and judged of it, not by its strength and clearness, but its bulk, as ignorant people do sometimes of a medicine, conceiving that a pill can have no virtue, because, instead of being like a musquet ball, it is no bigger than a pin's head. But the value of a thing did not alway consist in its bulk, and it was by no means impossible to render either a speech or a bill better by abridgment, as the present bill and the last speech would evince. The bill in fact, in its present shape, did every thing which it ought to do; it established and declared a principle, and left the application of that principle, where it ought to be left, in the hands of his majesty. It did by legislation all that legislation ought to do, and left to regulation what properly belonged to it; and as to the performance towards the soldier of every thing the bill promised, it stood upon the same ground as the pay of the army, the provisions of the mutiny bill, and the present allowances of Chelsea hospital, namely, the faith of parliament, which was not the less honourable or the less punctually kept because its votes were only annual. The noble lord complained that the bill was unintelligible as to its objects; but he had made a very long speech to prove the contrary, at least so far as respected himself; and he believed the noble lord was the only person in the house who could plead weakness of intellect on the subject. Another charge was, that he had not made a speech to explain his own view of the subject, or the mode by which he meant to carry the bill into effect, But he should conceive, if that were really necessary, the charge of unintelligibility would be justly incurred. The bill had gone through its regular stages: every regular opportunity for discussion had been afforded, and if the noble lord was still unenlightened upon the subject, he must refer him to the bill, which would speak for itself.
Mr. Percevalafter some preliminary observations, said, that whether this all wise, this all perfect administration ought to form

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an exception, whether the house could safely confide in them to the extent demanded, was a question upon which, perhaps, there might be some difference of opinion upon the different sides of the house; but after the experience we have had of the inaccuracy, in all detail, the imprudence, and the peculiar indiscretion of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), who presided as it should seem, with such uncontrouled sway, over this branch of the national service; whether the house should vote away thus blindfold the money of the people, reposing implicit confidence that it would be discreetly applied, was a question on which, he believed, there could be no difference of opinion on either side of the house. Yet that was what the house would be called upon to do; for he defied any man to say when he voted for the passing of this bill, whether the pension to the discharged soldier was to be one shilling a day, or two, or five, or ten. That all was to depend upon the orders hereafter to be made by his majesty, which orders the prudence of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) would have to frame. And the disgraceful state in which the house, as the guardian of the public purse, was placed by this proceeding, was the more remarkable when it was recollected what had been said by the right. hon. secretary for the war department. For it had been admitted by him, that the house could not possibly discuss or consider the alteration which had been adopted in the mutiny bill without having under consideration at the same time these Chelsea regulations. For this purpose, the two bills were to be in the house together, their progress through the house was to be concurrent, and they were to be taken into consideration,as far as the forms of the house would admit, at the same time. To enable the house to do this, he said, the bill now under consideration was originally introduced with the several clauses, affecting to detail several of the regulations which were to be adopted; they were clauses, which, till the blanks were filled up in them, it was impossible to understand; and the only mode which the house had had of guessing even at what the effect of them would be, was by such recollection as might remain of the right hon. gent's speech (Mr. Windham's) ten or twelve weeks before. But when this bill went into the committee the house, he said, had some hopes that these blanks would be filled up, and that it would come out of the committee in a state in which it could be understood. But no;
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the very reverse of these expectations took place; the committee instead of filling up the blanks in the clauses, struck out the clauses: instead of filling up the blanks, made in this respect one great blank: one great blank, una litura, was the amendment. And here again, he said, the right hon. gent. had misconceived his noble friend (Lord Castlereagh); for imagining that the noble lord had objected to this course of proceeding, as taking the house by surprize, he had reminded the house that there could be no ground for that charge, because the bill had been recommitted. But his noble friend, he said, had not adverted to this circumstance with a view to charge any want of candour on the proceeding. He had mentioned it only to account for his having delayed, till so late a stage of the bill as the third reading, to make any observations upon it. In the stages prior to the committee, the noble lord had shewn that it was impossible to make any, because, till the blanks were filled up, there was no understanding the clauses; when the clauses were struck out, there was no possibility of doing it on the recommitment; unless it could be supposed that it was the duty of the noble lord on the recommitment, to try what he could do at framing clauses to execute the right hon. gent.'s seemed to have despaired of being able to do himself, and therefore had struck the clauses out altogether. When therefore these clauses were struck out, the objections to the bill assumed a new shape; a formidable objection to its principle arose, that, namely, which he had already adverted to, and which had upon the recommitment been pointed out to the right hon. gent. by an hon. friend of his near him (Mr. Huskisson). For that gentleman, he said, did upon that occasion point out the objection which then existed for the first time; namely, that of enabling the king to make any orders, and incur any expences by those orders, which he might please; and pledging parliament before hand to undertake to ratify those orders, and bear their expence. And he said it was just worthy of remark, that this objection, which was so urged by his hon. friend, (Mr. Huskisson) had at the time been treated by the right hon. gent., as every thing which came from the side of the house where he stood was uniformly treated, as the mere objection of party, which had nothing in it, and bespoke only a determined spirit to oppose every thing.

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But when the bill was reported, at three o'clock in the morning, after the house had been tired by a long debate, the notable amendment was introduced, which the house was then considering; and when the bill came yesterday to be read a third time, the side of the house on which he was standing was for the first time acquainted with its existence. At that time the house was extremely thin, and it was proposed to the right hon. gent. to postpone the discussion till the day when he was then speaking: but the right hon. gent. would not consent to it, and then the hon. general who had been alluded to (general Tarleton) feeling no doubt that such a bill should not, at the only occasion in which it was to receive any discussion, be discussed to empty benches, did move that the house should be counted, and it was found that there were not 40 members, and therefore the adjournment, which the right hon. gent. did not choose to consent to, was obtained, by shewing that the house was not in a condition to go on with the debate.—The hon. and learned gent. then observed upon the ridicule which the right hon. gent. had cast upon the objection made to the reducing the bill in its size, as if necessarily that would reduce its power and effect; but he contended that nothing had fallen from the noble lord which at all justified that ridicule. The noble lord was well aware that this comprehensive mode of legislating, that is the mode of legislating by giving the power to the king to make the regulations, instead of making them in the act itself, might certainly be much more effectual than the other. And it was one, he said, which the right hon. gent. if the house by permitting it encouraged him, might perhaps be particularly disposed to adopt; because by that means he would avoid all detail of provision and regulation, which as he certainly did not peculiarly shine in it, he might possibly be very well inclined to get rid of. And upon the same principle the whole business of the session might be comprised in one short, compact, tight little act, very mighty in operation though very small in size, he meant an act to enable his majesty, by order in council, to make any laws he pleased. Certainly, he said, he was ready to admit that the right hon. gent.'s constitutional principles would never let him carry his love of short acts of parliament, and his hatred of detail, to such an extent. And he would admit further, that as the act was now last amended, it in no degree
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whatever partook of the objectionable quality which would attach to so comprehensive an act as that which he had last alluded to. For, he said, he would undertake to demonstrate, by a short examination of the clause as now amended, that so far from its conferring too great powers on the crown, it absolutely conferred none at all. One had heard, he said, of persons who were famous for doing magno conatu nihil; of making great exertions, and those exertions ending in nothing—and the house had then before it an illustrious instance of it. The right hon. gent. had here called all the powers of legislation into action, and had gone through all its forms, and at last ushered it forth as a work of as consummate skill as it was of elaborate labour; it was, however, actually nothing, superbum et magnificentissimum nihil. But, he said, the right hon. gent. had observed, that though the noble lord had objected to this measure as not effecting any object which the noble lord approved, or as not effecting it in the manner which he thought right, yet the right hon. gent. observed it effected his own object, and that he had all along been pursuing his own ideas; he added, he bad no doubt that it was so; but that it certainly appeared from what he had already said, that the ideas of the right hon. gent. had led him a very long and a very varied chase. The first idea was to bring in a bill which should contain the detail of regulations, and this the right hon. gent. pursued till he got into the committee, and there he ran down that idea; then a new idea started, namely, that of giving an uncontrouled power to the crown to regulate, as it might be advised; and this idea he pursued through the first committee, and could not be diverted from the pursuit of it on the recommitment. But this idea shared the fate of the former upon the report, and there it was fairly ran down and brought to its end. The third idea that then started, was the idea which the right hon. gent. was then pursuing, namely, that of giving the power to the crown to order, and leaving it to parliament afterwards to say whether the order shall prevail. And if the right hon. gent. would persevere in pursuing this last idea, he was persuaded he could prove that it would lead his clause, his bill, his measure, and himself, into one common pit of inefficiency, where all would be lost together: and this, he said, he would undertake to prove by an examination of the clause. But before he did that, he said, he

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could not forbear expressing his regret and disappointment at not finding in this bill, that clause which was in the rt. hon. gent.'s first bill, (the repeal of the army of reserve act) namely, the clause enacting parliament to amend, alter, or repeal the act during the present session. The right hon. gent. when he first engaged himself in the art of legislation, dared not trust his act a whole session, he wisely provided for the possibility of amendment in the course of it. But now use has made him skilful and bold; and he ventures on a stronger wing to take a greater flight. He said he could not but think that the right hon. gent. over-rated his strength, and that he was too ventursome; and indeed he had hoped, by the recollection of the first bill, he would have been confirmed in the necessity of such caution, rather than indeed to despise it; for through it were only an act to repeal another, yet he had himself pointed out to the right hon. gent. on the third reading, so great and clear a defect in it, that the right hon gent. had been prevailed upon to adjourn the third reading to the next day, in order that he might have an opportunity of preparing a rider to be added to the bill, to correct that imperfection—and but for that correction, the bill would have passed, and actually deprived the families of all those men who had inlisted from the army of reserve, perhaps not less than from 30 to 40,000 men, of those allowances for their families, which the faith of parliament had pledged to them when they first enlisted; and he said, he could not but, therefore take the liberty of recommending to the right hon. gent. to make it an invariable rule, never to attempt to bring in an act of parliament without guarding himself with the power of doing that which in all probability would be necessary, namely, that of either amending or repealing it in the same session. To come then to the clause in question, he said, that it enacted that the discharged soldier "should become legally entitled to receive such pension, allowance, or relief, as shall have been fixed in any orders or regulations made by his majesty in relation to his cause of discharge, and in force at the time of his enlistment, and for the payment whereof money shall have been voted by parliament." And the last words he said, were those which were introduced on the last amendment. Now, he said, he must beg to ask the right hon. gent. what he meant by those words? The right hon. gent. had just said to his noble friend, as a
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excuse for not answering a speech of such strong and clear argument, that he did not like to attempt it; that his reason for not answering it was, that he really did not understand it—"that true, no meaning puzzled more than wit." Now, he said, he could not tell whether it was the total absence of meaning in this amendment, or the excess and abundance of its good sense and wit, that disabled him from understanding it, for he certainly must confess that he was completely puzzled by it. Did it mean that, to give the soldier the vested right to his pension, the money shall have been voted for the payment of it at the time when he enlisted, or that it will be enough if the money shall have been voted subsequent to his enlistment, but at the time of his discharge? He said, he perceived that the rt. hon. gent. was looking at the words; he really believed that they would not help him to his meaning, but he thought it rather odd, though he might have difficulty in telling him what the true construction of the amendment was as it was worded, that he could not tell him what his own meaning had been, and what he had intended to convey; he said he was aware he was not entitled, in strict parliamentary form, to put a question to the right hon. gent in the midst of his speech, but he really wished that he would indulge him with one. Because, if he would but tell him which it was he meant, he would content himself with shewing the absurdity and inapplicability of that meaning to the right hon. gent.'s object; but if he would not tell him, he should be under the necessity of troubling the rt. hon. gent. and the house with hearing the absurdity and inapplicability of both meanings. From the hon. gent.'s refusing to answer, as he perceived he intended to do, he however drew this consolation, that it was not his own peculiar stupidity and dulness which prevented him from understanding it, that he was not the only gentleman that was puzzled with it; and, indeed, there was no longer any wonder that the words failed to convey any precise meaning, for that there never had been any precise meaning to be conveyed, and that the right hon. gent. was as much at a loss to tell him what his own meaning was, as he was at a loss to find it out from his words. Being compelled therefore to examine the effect of the amendment, supposing it to have either of the two meanings; he would, he said, first take it upon the supposition that the money must have been voted by parliament for the execution of the king's order,

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previous to the soldier's enlistment, in order to give him his title to the pension under it. Then it would be obvious, first, that if the soldier enlisted under an order for the execution of which no money had at that time been voted, the soldier, though induced to enlist under the beneficial terms which the order held out to him, so far from having any title to allowance which he could enforce at law, he would, under this act, have no title at all; and. it would have been his folly to have trusted to the order before it had that ratification, and instead of being more secure, he would be actually deluded by it. But then it might be said that would only operate during the interval till the money should be voted; true, he said; but then he asked what was the use of this act of parliament, for without this act of parliament the king undoubtedly might issue an order, and not attempting to act upon it till he submitted it to parliament, if parliament adopted it, it would then be binding; but evidently, both in one case and the other, the binding effect of it would be equally derived from the subsequent ratification of parliament, and this act therefore would do nothing, In the next place, to consider it on the supposition that the subsequent vote of parliament should have a retrospective operation, and give validity to the king's prior order, so as to cover the intermediate enlistment of any soldier, and which, he said, he certainly should have thought must have been the right hon. gent.'s meaning, if he had not seemed to have so much difficulty in telling him so; upon that supposition, he said, it was obvious that the last observation applies equally to an order so depending as to its validity, upon the subsequent ratification of parliament; with this increased objection, that in the mean time the soldier who was enlisted would be so far from being better secured in his title to his future pension, that if he had rested solely on the king's engagement without any act of parliament, that he would be less secure; if he had trusted to the king's promise contained in his order, he would have trusted to that which in no experience had ever been known to fail the soldier. But if he enlists under an order, winch professing not to be valid till it is subsequently ratified, he will have no right to complain if parliament does not ratify it; and this he contended was unanswerably clear, unless the right hon. gent. would contend that parliament would in such case be bound to ratify the order; and if that was so, he desired to
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ask in what respect the power and controul of parliament was reserved by this amendment? But he said, he had argued this hitherto, as if the amendment meant that the order was to be ratified at least in the next session of parliament; but if that were so, nothing could be so unhappily chosen as the words of it—for he observed that the words were "that he should be entitled to a pension, for the payment whereof money should have been voted, &c." Now the pension was not to be due in any case till 14 years after enlistment, and in many not till 21 year. Was it intended then seriously that the house of commons should next year vote money for the payment of a pension which would not be due till 14 or 21 years hence? it could not be so meant. The house of commons would, according to its usual course, not vote money for the payment of a pension till it was due; and consequently would not vote it till the 14 or the 21 years were elapsed; and during the whole period of the solder's service it would depend upon the future vote of the house of commons, whether he should or should not have the pension; and this was the vested right that the right honourable gentleman provided, in order to bring recruits in abundance to the army. But then he desired again to know what was meant by "voted by parliament?" Did it mean the vote of the house of commons; or the grant of the whole legislature? if it meant the vote of the house of commons, he said it certainly did not express its meaning, because the house of commons was not parliament. If it meant the whole legislature, then the whole legislature never vote money, but granted it, or appropriated it, and though he said the right honourable secretary for foreign affairs seemed to laugh at this observation, as a mere verbal criticism, yet he owned, he did not think that such incorrectness of language was at all that which was proper for parliament to use: but, he said, the slovenly appearance which it exibited, in common with every other act of the present administration; for if it only affected them he should not care, for their character for accuracy, or any other merit, he did not affect any anxiety; but he did, he said, feel for the character of parliament, and he pointed out his objection, which his learned friend (the Attorney General) might remove by a mere stroke or two of his pen, before the third reading of the bill, in order that the character of that house should not be involved in the disgrace of that slovenly inac-

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curacy which so justly belonged to the administration itself. They will judge, indeed, he said, whether they will think it worth while to make any alteration in this respect; possibly, as they must feel the whole act totally inefficacious, and merely waste paper, they would rather it should pass with this additional blemish upon it, than by submitting to adopt any alteration suggested by him, give another acknowledgment under their own hands, as it were, of the imperfection of their own unassisted ertions. But this was to give the soldier, he said, a legal vested right. Therefore the inaccuracy in the expression was not a mere clerical or critical error; for as no action could be brought till the money was not only voted, but was raised, and was got into the hands of some public officer, and was appropriated in his hands to the payment of the soldier's pension; the words should not only be corrected, but the whole provision must be extended, otherwise, as it stands, if the soldier is to have any legal mode of enforcing his demand at all, it must be by his petition of right alone. And then, he said, the upshot of the whole of this notable expedient to make the soldier so sure and certain of his future allowance was this, the king may make an order, under which if a soldier enlists he will have a legal right to his future pension, provided parliament, 14 or 21 years after, shall think proper to ratify the order by granting money for the payment of that pension; and that right shall be so clearly and securely vested in the soldier, that he shall be able to enforce it by a legal suit, namely, a petition of right. Now that there can be no greater complication of absurdity in one little clause of one act of pa il. he said, he would not affirm, because the right hon. gent. has other bills yet to bring in; and as he has great powers in this style of legislation, perhaps he may yet exceed what he has already done. But he trusted that he had made good his undertaking to the house, by shewing that the clause was totally inefficacious and absurd, and that it amounts to no more than this, that they undertake to ratify an order which the king may make, provided always that they like to do so when they see it. This is the new power given by this act to the crown. this is the great effect of this mighty act.—If he had been to be asked, he said, before the right hon. gent. last come into office, what act in a statesman or public man that the right honourable gentleman would have considered as the
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most weak, and indicating a mind least capable of any wide range of useful thought, he should have answered, without any hesitation, the passing of an act of parliament for the sake of passing it, where no useful and important effect was to be produced by it. And yet, he said, this very thing it was, that the necessities of the right hon. gent. had driven him to do. For having been driven by the weight of the objection to it, to amend into nothing, the clause in the shape in which it was to have given the full power of legislating over the public purse on this subject to the king; having been obliged to abandon the operative part of his bill, he still adheres to the bill itself. And why? for this reason. To those who do not examine the matter closely, and who are contented with consulting only the titles of acts of parliament, the right hon. gent. will appear to have been doing something for Chelsea, and something towards making better provision for soldiers. And though he cannot avoid the fact of he will, said, in some degree disguise the appearance of it, he will have an act of parliament in short to shew for his pains. Indeed, he said, it is in precise conformity with the other acts of the present administration, where little or no performance followed upon great promises. It is a precise counterpart to the operation of the chancellor of the exchequer with respect to the sugar tax. That tax made part of the ways and means of his budget, and was taken to produce 300,000l.; the remonstrances, however, against the injustice of this tax, as it was originally intended, were so strong and just, that the chancellor of the exchequer very properly gave way to them, and admitted such modifications of it, as necessarily annihilated all prospect or possibility of its producing any thing;—but still he would not give up his act; and therefore this compromise was come to between him and those who would have opposed it—they consented not to oppose the act, provided he would consent that it should produce nothing—and so it passed; and so it will remain, he said, an ornament to the statute book; and a happy instance, if not of productive, yet, he trusted, of harmless financial legislation. But indeed, he said, it was not only in single measures that this quality of the present administration was to be found; if he was to ascribe to it any one marked characteristic, more appropriate to it than another, he should say it was an administration of most splen-

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did pretence, and most inadequate and contemptible performance—of performance not only unequal to its promises, but in most instances in direct contrast with them. This character, he said, was to be traced from the first original formation, and concoction of the heterogeneous mass, through all their measures down to the present bill. What, he said, was the profession with respect to the formation of their government: it was to be formed, he said, on a broad basis, to unite all the wisdom, all the virtue, of every division of parties: and how was this performed? The comprehension of all parties was illustrated by the total exclusion and proscription of every man who had happened to preserve his friendship, his political friendship and connexion, at least, with Mr. Pitt till his death. It might be contended, indeed, he said, that there remained no persons of abilities in that party, after the death of that great man, who were to be compared with the transceudant talents which adorned the opposite bench. But if that were so, still he could not but think that there were some amongst them, who from the habits of office at least, had acquired some useful knowledge, some experience, some facilities in the detail of business, which he doubted not, if the present administration had condescended to think worth the attention of their superior wisdom, might have rescued them from the repeated disgraces to which their inability to do business, their total incompetency for all matters of detail, had daily, and was daily exposing them. He expected, he said, from the cheers of "hear!him," from the opposite side of the house, that it was wished to ascribe this observation to some disappointment on his part, at not being honoured with a situation amongst this splendid assemblage of talents and of virtues. He was confident, however, that no man who heard him would so ascribe it. He did not, indeed, recollect ever to have professed in that house, what an hon. gent. (Mr. Whitbread) had, as he understood, when he happened not to be present the other night, stated him to have professed—namely, that he would never form a part of such an administration: but undoubtedly, all that he had ever said on the loss of character, the disgrace, and the public mischief which he conceived to attach to the coalition of public men, with known differences on the great and leading principles of the existing politics of the day, that hon. gent. had only done justice to him, in
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collecting from what he had so said, the sentiment which he stated him to have professed. It would indeed, he thought, have been presumption in him to have professed it: it would have implied an opinion in his own mind, that there was something in him which might have made it an object with the present ministers to have had him amongst them. But there were many certainly among Mr. Pitt's friends, to whom this did not apply, and whose exclusion and dismissal from office could hardly be ascribed to any thing but the principle of proscription on which the administration was formed. He next observed, that the first thing, from all the professions of the right hon. gent. opposite to him (Mr. Fox), whether in this house, or out of it, which might have beat expected to be found to mark the formation of any administration to which he was to belong, was a great regard to the true principles of liberty, the principles on which it was established, and by which it was to be secured. The way, however, in which those professions were acted upon was by violating, in the formation of their cabinet, one of the very first and most acknowledged principles of liberty and a free constitution, by uniting the judicial and executive power in one person; he alluded to the appointment of his noble and learned friend lord Ellenborough, the chief justice of England to a seat in the cabinet; and however the right hon. secretary of state (Mr. Fox) had on a former night referred with triumph to the event of the discussions on that subject, he begged to assure him, that he was much mistaken, if he supposed that the impressions made upon the public mind, the disadvantageous, professions to the character of the sincerity of his attachments to the real principles of liberty, had not been slight in point of effect; and would not be transitory in point of duration. The next thing, he said, which might have been expected, from all their former declamations against supposed abuse of power was this, that if they came into the possession of it, nothing would be so strongly marked, as the temperate moderation with which they would use it: the happy illustration of this temperance and moderation, he said, was to be found in their late conduct to the directors of the East India company;—an act, which if report did not strongly caluminate them, could hardly be equalled by any former instance of the most immoderate exercise of power, or the most eager grasp at patronage. The next

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point on which all their professions raised the greatest expectations, was that of regard to the true principles of economy. Of this, he said, the measure now before them was the happiest instance; for not only was a great expence incurred by it, but a great expence was incurred for the sake of trying a military experiment of the right hon. gent. which, on the loose estimate that we had had of it from themselves, was immediately to cost 330,000l. per ann.; but it was an experiment which had been shewn over and over again, he said, by an hon. general (sir James Pulteney), and by others, might have been tried with equal effect, if it should succeed, and with infinitely less danger, if it failed, actually for nothing by the manner in which the house was plunged into great part of this expence, without the least attempt on the part of government to help them to form an idea of its extent. And here, he remarked, that the indifference to the true principles of economy was, perhaps, more apparent in the manner of plunging the house into this expence than even in the extent of the expence itself. For great expences the necessities of the country might undoubtedly, and did in many respects require; but no necessities of the country call require that the house of commons should be called upon by ministers to engage for the discharge of great expence, without those ministers condescending to endeavour, in complaince with the strong calls made upon them within this house, to let the house know what they thought, on the best estimate, or the best conjecture at least which they could form, of the amount of that expence. But this was not all; their regard for the public money was further apparent from the grant of a great pension, as he understood, to a convicted Irish judge, to purchase the resignation of his judicial office, which he should be considered as having forfeited by offence which he had committed. That judge had been prosecuted, he said, by himself, when attorney-general, and had been convicted of one of the grossest libels against the Irish government that could be published; a libel outrageous and intolerable, if published by any man, but how aggravated, when considered as the act of a judge! but perhaps an offence against a former government, was merit in the eyes of this; if he understood right, (and his learned friend the Attorney-general would contradict him if he was wrong) this convicted
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judge was not to be brought up for punishment,but was to be rewarded with a considerable pension. Other extravagant arrangements, he had understood, were likewise to take place; other resignations to be purchased upon terms equally in violation of every decent regard to economy; but as they were not yet finally closed, he should press them no further. Another instance of regard to economy, he said, was displayed in a measure, part of which was to be under the consideration of the house the next day; he meant the appointment of new commissioners for auditing the public accounts—their numbers were all at once to be encreased from eleven, the number now employed, including three new ones appointed by Mr. Pitt at the end of last year, to no less than nineteen; and he was convinced, he said, it would be seen, that this measure, to the extent to which it was proposed to be carried, was unnecessarily extravagant and expensive in the extreme: and he
could not, he said, pass by this article of economy without observing, that it was not enough to say, such and such an application of the public money was no improper expence, was congenial to our feelings of generosity, and consistent with the character of a great and oppulent nation; but, considering the necessary calls upon the public purse, no new ones should be admitted without proof not only of their propriety, but their necessity. For how, he said, did the house stand at this moment, with respect to the ways and means of the year? The 300,000l. from the sugar tax had failed, the 500,000l. which was first to be had on iron, and then upon private breweries, and now at last was to be fixed on the assessed taxes, was to be reduced 200,000l. by abatements and allowances, there remains then a deficiency at this day in the ways and means which the noble lord proposed to raise, as necessary for the year, of no less than 500,000l.: and when he represented those ways and means to be necessary, we had not then had opened to us the blessings of the right hon. gent.'s military plan. The additional money voted for the increased pay for the navy, the increased expence arising from these military plans, had occurred since; so that he did not think he was going beyond the truth, when he said that there was near one million of fresh ways and means now wanted by the noble lord, to make as ample a provision for the expences of the year as he intended to do when he opened his financial statement. One other in-

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stance of disappointing the expectations which might have been raised, he said he would mention, and that applied more particularly to the right hon. secretary for the war department (Mr. Windham). When he came into office, he said, it might at least have been expected that there would have been no useless legislation, no tinkering of acts of parliament, no marks of the laborious effects of a blind Cyclops, in the framing of them; as the disappointment of this hope he should content himself with referring to the miserable bill before them. These topics, he said, might be much enlarger upon, many similar ones might be mentioned and others seemed to be opening upon them in the remaining business of the session; and he should indeed be happy to see, when the session was closed, a correct collection of these and similar instances, in which the inconsistency of the conduct of the administration with its professions might be seen it might be stiled a Florilegium on the beauties of the present administration. He trusted, however, that from what he had mentioned; from shewing how the promise of a comprehensive principle in forming their administration was illustrated by the exclusive and prescriptive one on which it was formed; how their love of liberty, by uniting the judicial and the executive character in one; their moderation in the use of power, by their conduct to the East India Company; their economy, by the new and unnecessary military expenditure their pensions to convicted and retiring judges; the unnecessary extent of their intended increase of commissioners for auditing the public accounts; and their abstinence from all useless and clumsy legislation; by the slovenliness and uselessnes of this and others of their acts of parliament—he said he trusted from all this, he should appear to have done no more than justice to the administration, when he had styled them a government of most splendid pretence, and most inadequate and contemptible performance. Yet this, he said, was that all-wise administration which they had been promised; this was the administration, uniting all the talents and all the virtues of all parties, which was to shame all former administrations by contrasting its wisdom with their folly, its competency and energy with their inefficiency and weakness, its purity with their corruption, its economy with their profusion, its love of liberty and moderation of power with their unconstitutional and arbitrary abuse of it. This, he said, was the proof of those benefits from an
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united and comprehensive administration, which so many well-meaning, but shortsighted men thought they could anticipate; it was for this that the consistency and character of public men was sacrificed and abandoned; it was for this the public was to look for a compensation for that distrust of the sincerity of the professions and principles of all public men, which such unprincipled coalitions necessarily produced. There was one advantage indeed, he said, that was derived from this broad-bottomed administration; they were not as yet sunk by the load and weight of the accumulated errors and absurdities of which they had been convicted, "a weight to sink a navy," a weight which must long ere this have sunk any administration which did not derive an uncommon buoyancy from its broad-bottomed formation. He said he had been led regularly, nay, necessarily, into the consideration of the general character of the administration on the discussion of this particular measure; because this measure proposed to give to his majesty powers over the public purse, which could not be justified except upon the peculiar confidence which might be safely reposed in his present advisers. From this examination he trusted the house would see, that whatever their claims or pretentions might be to that confidence, they had no title to any at all. He said he should conclude with only one observation, which was to guard his argument, from the charge of inconsistency, which had already been applied to that of his noble friend: don't let it be said, he added, that he contended in one sentence that this act of parliament would give the king extravagant power, and in the next that it gave him nothing; for he contended no such thing. What he contended was this: that if the act did any thing, that if the act could effectuate in any degree what it was intended to do, it did give such powers as that house ought not to consent to grant: but that if it did not give such powers (which he contended was the case), then it did nothing, was unnecessary, and ought to be rejected for its futility.
Mr. Secretary Foxon the part of his majesty's ministers, positively disclaimed any such sentiment, as expressed by any of them, in or out of that house, that they combined all the talents, all the virtue, and all the influence of the country. It certainly was their wish to combine as much of those properties as circumstances could admit, and it was not their fault, that some right hon. gentlemen, friends of the late admi-

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nistration, were not connected with them. The hon. and learned gent. had complained of versatility in his majesty's ministers because they had agreed to abandon some measures, and to modify others according to what they conceived to be the sense of parliament and of the country; but he could not conceive that to he reprehensible in the conduct of ministers, or a conduct which should render them undeserving of the confidence of parliament or the country. If he were to look out for a set of ministers who, from their proud pertinacity and unaccommodating perseverance in any measure, however obnoxious to parliament or the people and disregard of the public confidence, would be the least likely to conciliate that confidence he had nothing more to do than to glance a the beaches opposite to him. The learned gent. as well as the noble lord. had congratulated himself that he was not included in the present disgraceful administration; perhaps his exclusion was not so much subject of regret on their parts as he seemed inclined to imagine. But probably, if ministers had the singular good fortune of his aid on this occasion, they might have had the advantage of those eminent legislative talents which he had displayed in the formation of his memorable volunteer bill, and the lucid constructions and counter-constructions he had afterwards felt it necessary to give to those consummate specimens of accuracy, consistency, and clearness. However, if the learned gent. and his colleagues possessed such talents as they were inclined to give themselves credit for, why did they abandon their places, and confess that their abilities for carrying on the affairs of the nation had expired on the death of a late right hon. gent? Why did they abandon their posts in despondency and dismay, upon the death of that leader of whom they were so prompt to acknowledge themselves the mere tools? At least they might have tried a little longer their talents to conduct the public business, though it was probable the experiment would have been more short-lived and inefficient than the learned gent. was inclined to think this bill would be. With respect to the India Company, the learned gent's. conclusions were founded in the grossest misrepresentation and misconception. And with respect to the learned judge in Ireland (judge Johnson) to whom the hon. gent. had alluded, whenever he thought proper to institute an enquiry on that or any subject of fair discussion, touching the conduct of his
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majesty's ministers, he would find them ready to meet the investigation. But, unfortunately there were some subjects upon which the acrimony of some hon. gentlemen outran their discretion, and every regard and feeling of decorum. Did the hon. and learned gent. recollect nothing about the judicial appointment and the grants of pensions, which took place in Ireland under the administration of which he formed a part? Would he condescend to ask the noble lord next to him (Castlereagh) a question on that point? Would his noble friend answer for him how judge Johnson came to be a judge? Would the noble lord condescend to say, whether there was or was not any judge in Ireland who enjoyed his seat, or any other man who enjoyed his pension or his place, as the price of his vote upon the union? Would the noble lord answer this question? Did his rt. hon. deceased friend wish to institute any enquiry upon this subject? Perhaps it would be more creditable to the hon. and learned gent.'s discretion to consult a little the ease of his friends, feelings, before he ventured to put questions likely to terminate but little to their peace of mind. With respect to the bill, Mr. Fox said, that administration might not perhaps, be very long lived; but he hoped that gentlemen would give them till next session to exist. It was intended that his majesty should be soon advised to follow up this measure with the declaration of what was his royal wish; and if the bill should pass the lords in its present form next session, an application would be made to parliament for its sanction to the completion of the system.
Mr. Canningsaid, that though he had no right to complain that the right hon. secretary had followed his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Perceval) into the more general topics of his speech; yet of his total neglect and omission of those parts which more immediately affected the bill before the house, he thought he and the house had a right to complain; for, surely, it was high time that some one at least of his maiesty's ministers should now at length upon this last opportunity, afford some light as to their own sense and meaning in the measure under discussion; and if they could not (which they probably could not) contend that it was framed to answer any useful purpose, should at least condescend to explain what purpose they. themselves bad in view. All his however the right hon. secretary had thought himself at liberty to pass over, and to leave the question altogether in the same

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obscurity in which it had been left by its original mover (Mr. Windham). The right hon. secretary attempted to justify his unwillingness to enter into the .discussion, by reproaching gentlemen on this side of the house for not having urged their objections at an earlier stage of the bill, either entirely forgetting, or wilfully overlooking the circumstance, that at any other earlier stage it was utterly impossible to discuss it with any prospect of utility; for never till the present stage was the bill in a shape at all intelligible. It was brought in, as the house would remember, as a companion to the mutiny act, and a sort of commentary on a new clause in that act, by which the whole constitution of the army was changed. This change the house had been always told to consider not by itself, but as coupled with the provisions and regulations of the Chelsea bill. The provisions and regulations were then in blank only; but there was at least the promise Which the blanks to be filled up afforded, that something was to be provided, that something was to be enacted by way of regulation, of which parliament was to have cognizance, and upon which it was freely to exercise its judgment. Of course there was no possibility of exercising that judgment till the precise nature of these provisions was known: and this could only be learnt in the committee, where the blanks were to become speaking and substantive clauses. To the committee, therefore, the bill went, without any opposition; pro forma, as the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) assured them, that is as he understood it, in order to be made perfect and intelligible in its then existing shape. But in the committee, the amendments, so far from being formal, turned out to be no less than a total alteration of the whole bill—an alteration so total and radical, that upon comparing the bill as it came out of the committee with that which was referred there, it was hardly possible to trace a resemblance between them! He really had thought when this new bill was put into his hands, that the person who gave it him must have made some gross mistake; and as he understood that there was a committee sitting up stairs upon a bill for regulating the Chelsea waterworks bill, that by the error of the name Chelsea, the water-works must have been imposed upon the right hon. gentleman instead of his own, and that all his own clauses might be now in the hands of the water works committee. The right hon. gent. however, seemed contented to adopt the present bill; so there could be no such
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mistake about it. He was then reduced to the necessity of believing that the right honourable gentleman had, by the use of his own reflection, become so convinced of the absurdity of his bill, as originally brought in, that finding no opposition made from this side of the house, he had gone into the committee and opposed it there himself, and shewing the folly of all his own provisions, had been able to persuade the committee to strike them out. But this was a little hard upon the house. They were induced to vote the clause in the mutiny act, under a promise that the Chelsea bill should contain the specific regulations by which the principle of that clause should operate. So long as the Mutiny bill was under discussion, the phantom of a bill full of regulations was danced before their eyes, and they were led on by the expectation of seeing it assume a perfect and substantive existence. But no sooner is the mutiny act passed, than this delusion is withdrawn; and instead of specific regulations or provisions, the house is presented with a bill, which is in fact one great blank, or what is worse still, one undiscriminating enactment of unbounded confidence in his majesty's ministers. And in the mean time, by this mode of proceeding, discussion is made impossible, until the house have arrived at this last stage; and in this stage all explanation is denied. The bill, he has said, contained but one enactment; and even of that enactment the meaning was so equivocal, that while ministers denied that which his learned friend (Mr. Perceval) affixed to it, they refused to give any construction of their own. This was the point to which he hoped and trusted the right honourable gentleman who spoke last would have addressed himself. He trusted that he would have thought it decent and respectful to the house, to remove an ambiguity so perplexing and inconvenient; aad if he could not satisfy the house that either of the alternatives in which the words might be understood, were such as the house ought to sanction, that he would at least have told them which of the two of his majesty's ministers had in their contemplation. The bill promised on the part of the house of commons that they will make good the expence of whatever regulations his majesty may think proper to establish. Taken by itself, it was obvious that this engagement went to pledge the house of commons to an unlimited extent, and to put the public purse wholly at the disposal of his majesty's ministers. But to cure this construction, a notable expedient was re-

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sorted to. A proviso was added to the promise to this effect, "if parliament shall have sanctioned the same." How was this? If it was an effectual guard, it totally destroyed the efficacy of the engagement; for to promise to pay, if at the time when payment is demanded you shall think fit to pay, but not else, was equivalent to no promise at all. What was the object of any such previous engagement? The right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) ad said—"Security to the soldier."—Well then; what was the nature of that security? If the engagement on the part of parliament clear and unconditional, certainly the security was ample and unquestionable. Parliament engaged to make good whatever the executive government might promise. Certainly this was ample security to give to the soldier—but was it such as it was becoming to ask of parliament! On the other hand, if the engagement was not unconditional, if by the proviso annexed to it, it was intended that the house of commons should retain a full and free discussion to be exercised hereafter, whenever the particulars of the expence incurred came before them, then where was the additional security to the soldier! By how much more was he secure of the regulations in his favour being made good, by a pledge so vague and unmeaning as this, that parliament would make them good, if they should so think fit! In which of these two senses then he asked, did his majesty's ministers mean to have their bill understood? Was it an unconditional pledge, fettering the future discretion of the house of commons, or was it a conditional promise, liable to be fulfilled or not, according to future circumstances, and instead therefore of being a security, a mere trick and delusion upon the soldier? Neither of these senses were distinctly expressed by the bill, as it now stood; either of them might with equal fairness be attributed to it. Was it too much to require of his majesty's present ministers, or any one of those who stood at the head of the government, that they should have the goodness and condescension, not to argue against such feeble and unworthy opponents, and to prove their own intentions to be right—that would be too much to expect from them—but merely to let the house of commons know what it was that they commanded them to enact—in what sense their bill was to be understood—in what sense, if in any, they, in their great wisdom, understood it themselves?—
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But instead of giving us that reasonable satisfaction, the right hon. gent. rebuked those who required it at their hands, and charged them with the grossest inconsistency and contradiction in their arguments; "because, say they, your first objection to this plan was that it invaded the prerogative of the crown; and now you are all alive for the privileges of the house of commons!" Supposing this were so, where was the contradiction and inconsistency? Was it a recommendation to any plan that it commits two faults instead of one? Was it an atonement and mitigation? Was it not rather an aggravation of its faultiness, that having set out with invading the natural province of the crown, it concludes With assigning over to the crown what is the natural province of the house of commons? Was it inconsistent in those who detected and exposed the first of these faults, to apply themselves with equal readiness to the conviction of the other, when brought under their view? It had been complained of, and with great truth, (and the complaint had been supported by argument, which, if ill founded, ought to have been refuted, but which remained uncontradicted to this hour) that by taking into the hands of the house the detailed regulation of the military economy of the army, you invaded the province of the crown, and that to the extinction of which the crown alone was competent. It was now complained of with equal justice, that in executing that part of your system, to which the house of commons was competent, and which it was its peculiar right and duty to administer the pecuniary part, you, by the bill now before the house, wholly exclude the house of commons from any cognizance of the matter, and delegate the power of the purse, with an uncontrouled discretion to the crown. The crown was to make the distribution, to settle the amount, and the house of commons had nothing to do but to find the means of meeting the expence. But no, said the right hon. gent., the time will come when the house of commons will have the whole subject before them, when the regulations themselves will be before them. Then, why not wait till then, before they pass any bill upon the subject? O! but it was necessary to have something to hold out to the soldier; some pledge on the part of parliament. So it was a pledge, then! and if a pledge that must be fulfilled, what became of the discretion of the house of commons? The dilemma was inextricable, and the right hon. gent. had not even made one effort to es-

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cape from it. But, after all, why were not the regulations ready to be laid before parliament now? Was it possible that the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) who certainly had given his undivided attention to this plan; for nothing el e of any sort or kind he bad done, or appeared to think he had to do; was it possible that after so many years consideration out of office, so much mature reflection in office before he brought forward his plan at all, that after that plan had now been two months announced to the house as perfected in all its parts, he was not now ready to bring forward the regulations, which after all were the vital part of his whole system? It could not be. He had them ready: for he had framed the bill originally with clauses to detail them; and precious clauses they were; particularly those which were to give his majesty, in compensation to be sure for those parts of his royal prerogative which were taken away from him, a prerogative which he never dreamt of exercising, an unlimited power over the almanack. Days were to be weeks; weeks, months; and months, years, at his command; two years were to be one and one year was to be two. Such clauses there were; but what was become of them? Has the rt. hon. gent. altered his own mind about them in the short time that has elapsed since he brought them in? And was he prepared to urge that whimsical variety and instability of judgment, that perpetual fluctuation of counsel, as a ground for the house of commons giving unbounded credit and confidence to what he might produce hereafter? The whole of the argument, if argument it might be called of the right hon. gent. resolved itself simply into a claim of confidence on the part of administration. The house were to vote this bill, they were to take the pledge contained in it, in perfect confidence that the ministers would exact nothing from them in consequence of that pledge, but what the house must approve, when it should come to be submitted to their consideration. And the right hon. gent. who spoke last seemed to take it very ill that this confidence was withheld, and the propriety of giving it questioned, by persons who, as he said, at the outset of the present government had professed a desire to support them. For my own part, said the right hon. gent., I have no pledge or promise of that sort to account for: I have nothing to retract, or qualify, or explain. I never offered any general professions of support. I never thought myself called upon to do so. I have given my
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opinion freely, as a member of parliament, on the measures of the government, as they have been brought forward: and sorry have I been to find, that scarcely one of the measures which have originated with them has been such as I did not feel myself bound to oppose. And I quite concur in the opinion expressed by my noble and learned friends (lord Castlereagh and Mr. Perceval) as to the general character both of the system of the present ministers, and of the manner in which it has been carried into effect, and in which public business has been conducted in this house, since this great administration came into office—that nothing can form a more ludicrous contrast than their promises and their performance. Of one noble person indeed, in the other house of parliament (lord Grenville), who forms apart of the administration, I have once before had occasion to speak. Perhaps it is to that occasion the right hon. gent. alluded. I did once say (it was early in the session, and before the measures and system of the government had been developed) that I was desirous of placing confidence in an administration of which he was the head. My personal confidence, my personal esteem and regard for that noble person, continue unimpaired: but to talk of him now at the head of the government; after all that we have heard, all that we have seen, to consider him as the presiding and directing mind, is impossible. I am sorry for it: But I admit no claim for confidence arising from an expression which was applied to an individual, and which was founded on an error as to his weight and situation in the government. In his colleagues I neither have, nor ever professed to have, the confidence which they now demand; and by my vote of this night I shall certainly refuse to give it to them.
The Attorney Generalspoke in support of the bill, and said it was one that ought to be considered, not as distinct from, but pari passu with the mutiny bill; and that the provisions of both stood equally pledged upon the faith of parliament and the discretion of his majesty.
Mr. Roseconsidered this the only explanation given as yet. He complained of the enormous and unnecessary expence in which this measure would involve the country, and concluded by expressing his conviction that a noble lord, whom he had hitherto been taught to consider as the head of his majesty's councils (lord Grenville) had no hand whatever in concerting these

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measures. He had always heard that noble lord alluded to by his majesty's present ministers of this house, as at the head of his majesty's present government; but he now found there really was no ostensible minister in that department but the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox). For the noble lord (Grenville) and his consummate talents and high character, his own esteem never sustained the smallest abatement; but as to his colleagues, he was quite sure that the whole history of parliament never presented such a period of ministerial imbecillity, inefficiency, and confusion, as since his majesty's present administration was formed.
Lord Templerose with much warmth, and expressed his utter indifference as to what opinion the right honourable gentleman or his friends might form of the talents of himself, or those with whom he had the honour to act; but he could now assure that right hon. gent. that he spoke the language and sentiments of his noble relation (lord Grenville), when he stated that he thanked no man for compliments paid to him at the expence of his colleagues.—After a few words from Dr. Laurence, in support of the bill, the house divided, Ayes 65; Noes 30; Majority for the bill 35. The bill was then read a third time, passed, and ordered to the Lords. Adjourned.

MINUTES.
Their lordships proceeded in the usual form to Westminster-hall, previous to which lord Hood of Catherington was introduced, and took the oaths and his seat.—They returned about four, when the house came to a resolution, "That this house, having taken into consideration the articles of impeachment against Henry lord viscount Melville, do acquit the said Henry lord viscount Melville thereof, and he is hereby acquitted of all the high crimes and misdemeanours on the articles of charge exhibited against him by the commons, and of all matters and things therein contained, and this house do hereby dismiss the said impeachment."—An order, usual on such occasions, was made relative to the publication of the trial, and after transacting some private business the house adjourned.