Sitting of 11 June 1806

GRENADA AND ST. VINCENT'S LOAN BILL.
A Bill was brought in, for vesting,

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in certain trustees, the sale of property belonging to the house of M'Dowall and Co. for the re-payment of advances made to them by government; which being read a first time,
Mr. Bakertook a view of the whole of the transaction, observing that, in consequence of the calamities which occurred in the islands of Grenada and St. Vincent's, in 1800, an act of parliament was passed, to enable government to make certain advances to the merchants anti planters of these islands, on sufficient security being given for the re-payment. Of this money, the sum of 240,000 l. had been advanced to the gentlemen in question; and yearly applications since made to parliament, to extend the time of the re-payment. It seemed that this money, instead of being employed in the manner proposed, had been laid out for other purposes in Scotland; and he thought, that the outstanding of the debt to this time was highly criminal, in some quarter or other.
Mr. M'Dowallrequested the permission of the house to explain, that ever since the year 1800, when this loan was made, he had used every possible exertion to repay this debt to government. He had ample funds, not only for paying that, but every other demand upon this firm; but, in all his efforts to dispose of the great property he possessed in Scotland, he was, for some reason or other, constantly thwarted and impeded by the first law officers of the crown in Scotland, under the late government. Even at this moment, he had a property of 180,000 l. floating in Scotland, which, for the reasons already mentioned, he could not avail himself of. He was aware that his own honour and character required a full explanation of the whole of these transactions being made to the house and the country; and, however reluctant he might be, on some accounts, to make such a disclosure, he owed it to himself to afford it in a proper stage of the bill. The foundation of the present bill was, to permit him, by his own consent, to dispose, through the medium of trustees, of that property which would enable him to discharge the debts due to the public and the other creditors to his house.
The Attorney-Generalexplained, that when he came into his present official situation, he found this large debt due to government; and, for the better and more speedy recovery of it, he wished to have the sale of the property vested in
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trustees; which was the whole object of this bill
Mr. R. Dundas Mr. R. Dundas said, he did not mean to oppose the bill, or controvert the greater part of what was said by his hon. friend; but he thought it hard, that the late law officers of Scotland should be arraigned for their conduct, before the whole of the proceedings should be before the house.
Mr. M'Dowallsaid, what he had principally to request was, that the house would suspend its judgment till they should be in complete possession of the whole, from documents which he should, at any time, be prepared to lay before them.
Mr. Johnstonesaid that, notwithstanding this bill for vesting the sale in trustees, he hoped the present securities for the debt would not be released, on account of any difference of opinion between the late and present law officers of the crown in Scotland.
Mr. Francissaid, he objected to the principle of these loans originally; and tile present bill was a proof, that such advances of money to individuals were not within the proper functions of the government.—The bill was then read a first time.

BILL SENT BY MISTAKE TO THE LORDS.
Mr. Hobhousefelt himself under the necessity of calling the attention of the house to a circumstance which might involve some blame to himself; but in which he trusted to the indulgence of the house. A bill (sir J. Gordon's Divorce Bill) had been taken from the table of the house, and carried up to the lords, which had not passed this house; the lords were unwilling to part with the bill, without a message from the house to recall it; a message, therefore, he was under the necessity of moving for. There were precedents of similar mistakes, and similar messages; but he could not call upon the house, without taking some blame to himself for an inadvertency which, he supposed, must have happened to him acting as chairman of the committee of ways and means, He moved, that a message be sent to the lords, desiring that their lordships would send back the said bill.
Mr. Bakerwas not surprised that such mistakes should occur,when the duty of the chairman of the committee of ways and means was performed by so many persons. He wished to know, who was the real chairman?
Mr. Hobhousesaid, it was well known that the chairman (Mr. Alexander) was much absent, in making preparations for

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his departure for a foreign settlement. From friendship to that gentleman, he had generally performed his duty; and whenever he was not present, it was done by some other gentleman, for the convenience of the house. He was content to take the blame of the inadvertency upon himself, as having acted most frequently.—It was then ordered, that a message be sent to the lords, to desire them to return the bill.

DEBTS OF TUE NABOBS OF ARCOT.
Mr. Hobhousemoved the order of the day for the 3d reading of the Nabobs of Arcot's bill.
Mr. Ryderrose to move, by way of amendment, that the words " appointing the commissioners to report to the house the grounds of their decision on every claim that was brought before them," be erased. He contended, that this clause made the house a court of appeal, and would prevent the decisions of the commissioners from being final. Besides, they might, sometimes, find themselves obliged to decide in opposition to the evidence that was laid before them; and when this evidence was submitted to the house, it would not furnish them with the grounds of the commissioners' decision. He conceived the commissioners to be the ultimate resort in this case, since they were a sort of arbitrators between the East-India Co. and the creditors of the nabob.
Lord R. Pettystated the origin of the clause now objected to; which had been proposed as an addition to another which he had introduced, for the purpose of obliging commissioners to report their decisions to the. house from time to time. However, he saw no material objection to the amendment now proposed; but he should wish to hear the opinions of his legal friends on the subject.
Mr. Windhamsupported the clause as it now stood; and observed, that it did not bind the house to investigate the grounds on which the commissioners decided in any instance; but merely went to enable parliament to review their proceedings whenever it might judge proper,
Mr. Percevalconsidered. the motion to be liable to many objections. The commissioners stood exactly in the light of arbitrators between the creditors and the East-India Co., under a decree of parliament. That house might disagree with the judgment of the commissioners, whether the motives for their decision should be right or wrong. The claims for such a sum
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as 5 or 6 millions must be very numerous; and it would be extremely inconvenient for that house to examine the whole of the evidence in all the cases. It might, indeed, be right for them to make such a report as would shew, that they did not sleep upon their duty; but, by calling for the grounds of their decisions, he was afraid the house would make itself a party to them.
Mr. Francissaid, that a bill which was to dispose of 5,600,000 l., so far from being a private one, was of the greatest public interest. For himself, he would take no part in it at all; as he did not think the parliament should be a party to any such agreements. He would oppose it in toto; and would not consent, that the house of commons should give its sanction to claims of which a highly respectable gent., late chairman of the Court of Directors (Mr. Grant), had declared, in his seat, three-fourths to be false demands; and, that it would be extra- ordinary, if even the other fourth should be established.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, the clause alluded to did not proceed from any distrust of the commissioners; but was thought to be one which must be desirable even to themselves. Though the parties were the creditors, and the East-India Co. the debtors; yet it was a public measure; for, if it was of a private nature, why come to parliament at all? He thought, also, that the different debts might be classed, and the grounds of the decision laid before the house, without repeating the whole of the evidence.
Mr. Rosethought, that if the commissioners were, as he believed them to be, fit and competent persons to enquire, the decision must he safer in their hands, than in those of that assembly. He disapproved of the whole of the clause, as the house could not possibly examine, itself, and decide up, on all of the cases; and should not, there fore, give its sanction to the validity of any of the debts.
Mr. Sheridansaid, that every word he had heard, convinced him that this was an unfit commission. It was, in reality, the public money by which the debts were to be liquidated; for how was the public to be paid by the East-India Co., if their revenues were swallowed up by the payment of these debts? Who were the fit persons for deciding on these debts? Were they not commissioners so constituted, as that their decision should be final? Was it not monstrous, that commissioners should be

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appointed, whose decisions should be subject to appeal? This house was the must unlit place for reviewing them; and why not, at once, appoint parliamentary commissioners, whose decisions should be final? "What was known already, with regard to India. debts, in 1784, justified him in making a supposition, that some collusion Might take place between the creditors and the company; by which the public might be defrauded.
Lord Castlereaghwas, also, for leaving the whole in the hands of the commissioners. The house should not give any additional validity to the claims, nor make itself a court of appeal. If it did, the consequence would be, to have the table of the house covered with a mass of useless papers.
Mr. Sheridanagain observed, that if the house directed the commissioners to report the grounds on which they decided, it must be either fur the purpose of revising them, or to gratify an idle curiosity.
Mr. Grantsaid, there could be no uncertainty in the business of the commissioners; who were all men of high character and honour, and were bound to decide upon oath. This agreement was not of a novel nature, as it was conformable to the practice observed in the whole of the East-India government.—After a few more observations, Mr. Ryder consented to withdraw his amendment.
Mr. Johnstonemoved, as an amendment, that none of the commissioners, hereafter to be appointed for investigating these claims, should be members of that house; but, that tins exemption should not extend to those who had been already appointed; which, after some observations, was withdrawn, and the bill read a third time and passed.

TREASURERSHIP OF THE NAVY.
Mr. Whitbreadrose, pursuant to the notice which he had given on a former occasion, not with a view, in the present state of the house, and at this late period of the session, to move for leave to bring in a bill for the better regulation of the treasurership of the navy; but for the purpose of moving, that, early in the next session, the house should take into consideration the act of the 25th of the king, intitled, " An Act for the better regulation of the office of Treasurer of the Navy." Every member who now heard him, he apprehended, had read, with attention, the report made by the committee appointed to examine the journals of the house of lords, relative to
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the late impeachment; and, if they had read it, he trusted that they had taken it into their most serious consideration; as, according to what appeared in those journals, eleven of the judges of England had given it as their opinion, that the law gave no hold to the public on its officers ; that, without violation of the law, such officers might make use of the public money for their own private purposes, if they pleased; and, on proof being had of such application, that the officers were not punishable by information or indictment. If that opinion was called for, and if the majority of the peers, upon the opinions of the judges delivered to the above effect, had pronounced the acquittal in the late impeachment, then it was high time that this should be declared to be law, if it was law; or, that, if it was not law, it should be declared that it should become so in future. He regretted that, at this late period of the session; he could not propose, with propriety, to bring in a bill on that subject; but he hoped, that early next session this would be done. As to the act of the 25th of the king, it did now appear, from the opinions of the eleven judges, that the public had, from the moment it was passed, up to the present time, been under a most gross delusion, with respect to its provisions; and that large sums of public money, (as had lately happened, to the extent of 150,000 l.,) might be drawn from the bank, and deposited in any place whatever, by the treasurer: and that not only he, but one deputed by him, might thus dispose of money, and lodge it in any place, even beyond the controul of the treasurer. He found not only that the assigned balances might be disposed of in this manner; but, also, when another object was in view, and when it appeared that the motive of the treasurer of the navy, or his deputy, was to make use of the public money for their own profit and advantage, we still found, from these decisions, that such practices were not cognizable by law, and that the parties were punishable on information or indictment. He wished that he could, even in this session, have brought forward a bill for the regulation of the office of treasurer of the navy, and the greater security of the public. As that, however, could not conveniently be done, he trusted, that early next session his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Sheridan) would introduce such a bill; or, if he did not, he himself would do it; and he sincerely hoped, that his right hon. friend would succeed better in a mea-

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sure for the regulation of his own office, than his noble predecessor had done. The great difficulty he should feel, he protested, would be, to find words more strong than those which had .been employed in the act of the 25th. He hoped, however, that his right hon. friend would make the words so strong and clear, the sense so conspicuous and defined, and the enactment so plain and obvious, that it would be impossible that the provisions of his bill could be misconceived, or mistaken. He concluded by moving, " that this house will, early in the next session, take into consideration the act of the 25th Geo. III. ch. 31, relative to the regulation of the office of treasure of the navy." On the suggestion of the speaker, he also moved, that the reprot of the committee appointed to inspect the lords' journals should be entered as read.
Mr. Leicesterrose, not with any intention to object to the motion of the hon .gent.; but, because some things which he said appeared to him so extraordinary that he could not pass them over without observation. He seemed to have supposed that the learned judges had determined that embezzling the public money was no offence cognizable by law. The judges had determined no such thing.—[Here Mr. Whitbread, by permission of the house rose, and read the following extract from the journals of the lords: "Whether it was lawful for the treasurer of the navy, before the passing of the act of 25 Geo. III. c. 31 (and more especially when, by warrant from his majesty, his salary, as such treasurer as aforesaid, was augmented, in full satisfaction for all wages, fees, and other profit and emoluments.) to apply any sum of money imprested to him for navy services to any other use whatsoever, public or private, without express authority. for so doing; and whether such application, by such treasurer, would have been a misdemeanour, or punishable by information or indictment? "The lord chief justice of the court of common pleas delivered the unanimous opinion of the judges upon the said question: "That it was not lawful for the treasurer of the navy, before .the 25 Geo. III. c.31, although after the warrant stated in the question, to apply any sum of money imprested to him for navy service, to other uses, public or private, without express authority for so doing, so as to constitute a misdemeanour punishable by information or indictment;" and gave his reasons,] Mr. Leicester, in continuation,
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observed, that he was perfectly aware of that; but then that was no embezzlement, The opinion only went so far as to say, that a temporary use of the public money, by individuals in office, was not an offence cognizable by law; and every one knew, who was at all acquainted with the course of business for these last thirty years, that this had never been considered as a public offence. Where was the difference between the case of the late lord Holland and such individuals? The hon. gent. had said, that the judges had given it as their opinion, that money might, by law, be drawn from the bank, and deposited elsewhere, for private purposes. They had said no such thing; they had only said, that it was not illegal to draw money from the bank bond fide for naval service.. Whether afterwards the trust should be abused, was a quite .different thing, and one which they considered themselves as having nothing to do with. The gentlemen on the other side, therefore, seemed to have misconceived them, and to blend the liberty of taking out the money, with the emoluments made by Trotter.
Mr. Whitbreadhoped, that he should be indulged with the liberty of saying a few words in reply. He had never mentioned the word " embezzlement " at all. The learned gentleman meant, he supposed, by embezzling, the making use of the public money, and not bringing it forward at the making up of the accounts. He did not say any thing about that; nor had he any such thing in contemplation. What he I meant was, the applying of the public money to private purposes for a time; and this, he and his friends had contended, was an offence punishable at common law. As to the construction of the act of the 25th of the king, if the treasurer, or his deputy, might take out the money from the bank for naval purposes, and afterwards apply it to purposes of private emolument, then, he repeated, that the public had, up to this time, been labouring under a most gross delusion; for it was utterly impossible to suppose, that the legislature had any other intention than, that the money drawn from the bank should be immediately applied to naval purposes, and to no other whatever. He again repeated, that his great difficulty would be, to find words more binding upon the treasurer, not to draw out the money for any other than naval purposes, and not to apply it to any other purpose when drawn. It was, that we blended the liberty allowed, with the use

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made of the money by Trotter. We did no such thing; but it was the learned gent. who blended the taking out of the money with the emoluments made by Trotter. Could his right hon. friend near him, then, allow Mr. Scott to take out the money; to deposit it at Coutts's, and make what use of it he pleased? If such a thing was done, he contended, that it would be, still impossible to permit such a thing to pass without, at least, an attempt to punish it. He was not, at present, enquiring what was the law, in opposition to the judges? but still they were fallible men, and liable to error, even in construing the law. This house and other, might act in opposition to their opinions, as they were not bound by them, unless they appeared well founded; and it was no longer ago than the preceding day, that the house of lords decided in direct opposition to the opinions of the judges, after they had been solemnly called upon to deliver them. As the judges, then, were not infallible, it became the legislature to consider, whether what they had delivered, on this point, was law or not. If it was law, then the law ought to be declared. If it was not law, then it was high time to have a new law, to render the point clear and certain.
Mr. R. Dundasadmitted that, according to the opinions of most persons, some new regulations were necessary, with regard to the law upon this subject. But, that the purpose for which he now rose was, to advert to something which had fallen from the hon. mover. That hon. gent. professed to think, that the house of lords grounded its judgment upon that opinion of the judges to which he appeared to object. But, he could not allow, that that hon. gent. or any other person, was competent to say, upon what the lords were induced to decide in the case alluded to; neither was the hon. gent. correct, in stating that that house should infer, from the admissions of lord Melville, that the noble lord connived at Mr. Trotter's application of the public money to his own profit.
Mr. Sheridanthought that, after the opinion of the judges, it was absolutely necessary that the law, upon this subject, should be satisfactorily settled. But, notwithstanding these opinions, he should take care that, while he remained in his present office, the affairs of it should not be managed, in any respect, contrary to what the law prescribed; and his conception of that law was this, beyond all doubt, that neither pay-master,
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nor any other person, should take naval money from the bank, unless it should be. at the moment wanted for bond fide naval purposes. Indeed, according to the present arrangement, his pay-master had no concern with a single guinea of the public money; and it was somewhat curious, that this was the arrangement which Trotter suggested. Accounts are now opened at the bank in the name of each of the sub-accountants to which money was occasionally transferred by order of the pay-master. Such was his impression as to the nature of this plan, that he had recommended it to his hon. friend, and others, to introduce a bill at once to render it the law in future; but they, not conceiving several other provisions necessary to the safe custody of the public money, thought proper rather to postpone bringing forward any bill until next session. The pay-master, however, had now no connection with any of the public money; and he would hold him inimical, if he should attempt to draw a guinea from the bank for any purpose whatever. Such was the practice which the right hon. gent. declared his intention to maintain, while he had the honour to hold the office of treasurer of the navy, at least, until it was otherwise enacted by law.
Mr. Percevalthrew out, for the consideration of gentlemen who proposed to bring in a bill upon this subject, whether, if the arrangement were enacted, such as the right hon. gent. had just described, the sub-accountants might not be open to the same objections which were applied to the paymaster; that is, whether those sub-accountants might not be open to a similar abuse of the public money.
Mr. Whitbreadthought such a consequence improbable. It was to be recollected, that the sub-accountants, on the trial, refused to withdraw the public money from the bank at the particular instance of Trotter; and by no means in consequence of their own wish, for it appeared that inconveniences resulted to them from the transfer.
Mr. Sheridancould not admit that the case, with regard to the sub-accountants, could ever be subject to the same objections as those which applied to the paymaster. It was obvious, that they could not be so to the same extent. Indeed, he thought it quite practicable so to watch the sub-accountants; so to establish a check between the. bank directors and the navy pay-office, as to detect any drawing of mo-

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ney not necessary for, and immediately applied to, a naval purpose; and, should such a thing appear, on the part of any sub-accountant, he had no hesitation in saying, that he should feel it his duty, on the instant, to dismiss him.
Mr. Fulleradverting to a notice of a motion which he had given, relative to the expenses incurred by lord Melville during his late trial, stated, that in consequence of the declaration of the noble lord's son, that, as no delay had occurred in preparing for the the, or, in its subsequent conduct; no more expense had occurred to the noble lord, than if the trial had taken place in the chamber of parliament, he was induced to wave his intended motion.

ROYAL FAMILY ANNUITIES BILL.
Lord HPetty moved the 2d reading or this bill.
Colonel Woodsaid, he felt it his duty to object to it. He then repeated the arguments he had used against it, a few nights ago; and thought this an unnecessary expenditure of the public money. The noble lord, in bringing forward the measure, had stated, as one of his chief reasons for doing so, the great increase which had taken place in all the necessaries of life, since these provisions were originally made. He allowed this to be the case; but these royal personages only felt the pressure in common with others; and that pressure was most severe on the great mass of the people, who were nearly borne down by taxes. He said he verily believed that, if he were to ask M. Talleyrand, the prime minister of Buonaparte, what mode he thought would be best to be pursued, in order to throw this country into the grasp and dominion of his master, he would say, it was to make the people dissatisfied with their government; make them dissatisfied with their taxes, and the people would be ready to throw themselves into the arms of Buonaparte. Those noble dukes held many places and emoluments, besides their original establishments of 12,000 l. a year; and to make this addition to the public burthens, would, he thought, be one of the surest methods of making the people dissatisfied; and that at a moment when he would advise the noble lord to exert his every faculty and ability to make retrenchments, rather than add to the public burthens. He thought this measure ought to have been introduced by the noble lord before a secret or select committee, rather than by this mode; and that committee might have made enquiries, which would
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have enabled them to judge, and to have informed the house, whether this increase was actually necessary. As it now stood, he must object to the bill.
Mr. W. Smithexpressed his confidence, that his noble friend would not need the lecture on economy that had been just read to him. He could not avoid coinciding in some of the opinions of the hon. gent. who had just sat down. He praised highly the conduct of the duke of York, in declining to apply for any additional provision. Were the depreciation of money, and the increased prices of every article of life, alone to be considered, he was willing to admit, that the claim preferred was a just one. But there were other circumstances, which, in his opinion, ought to be attended to. It ought to be recollected, that several of the younger branches of the royal family enjoyed emoluments, independent of their parliamentary provision. It was with a view to ascertain those emoluments, that he had made his motion the other evening ; and really, until the papers, for which he had then moved, were on the table, he did not see how the house could, with propriety, pass the bill before them. It had been well observed by lord Bacon, that in some situations, voluntary poverty was a debt that a man owed to his country. Far was he from wishing, that the illustrious personages in question should he plunged, or allowed to remain, in poverty. He was solicitous, that they should not be deprived of the due appendages of their rank; but it became a question, whether, or not, the measure proposed was calculated to increase the respect that it was so desirable to secure to them?
Mr. Rosethought the increase that was proposed to the allowances of the younger branches of the royal family was very reasonable, and much less than was barely necessary to meet the depreciation of money since those allowances were fixed.
Lord H. Pettythought, that the only question was, whether, when the salaries of every subordinate person in the state had been, within a few years, so much increased, it was wise to exclude, from the benefit of that general augmentation, a class of persons whose splendour and dignity were so intimately connected with those of the nation. Alluding to the duke of York, he described his situation as very different from that of his royal brothers. The income of his royal highness, independent of his emoluments as commander

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in-chief, amounted to 26,000 l. a year.— The bill was then read a 2d time.

VOTE OF THANKS TO THE VOLUNTEERS.
Sir Henry Mildmay rose,in pursuance to a notice, to call the attention of the house to the merits, the services, the zeal, and perseverance, of the volunteers of the united kingdom. He had no hesitation in saying,that it was the full conviction of his mind, that it was to them that the country was indebted for its security when threatened by invasion. Besides the general ardour which gentlemen from every county might bear testimony to, there were some particular instances of their promptitude and alacrity in the course of the last year. On an alarm of invasion on the coasts of Yorkshire, all the volunteers of the neighbouring districts pressed forward, with that ardour and zeal which the country had a right to expect from them. When there was an alarm of invasion in Scotland, the volunteers flocked from the farthest extremity of that country, to what they supposed was the seat of danger; and it was not merely for their spirit, that they deserved to be admired; but such was their discipline and efficiency, that lord Moira declared, that he would lead them with confidence against any enemy that could invade the country. Not only the earl of Moira had testified the efficiency of the volunteers of Scotland; but the inspecting field-officers, (who were men of high character, and could not be supposed to falsify the truth,) generally reported the volunteers as well advanced in discipline, and fit to serve with the troops of the line. They did not consider the volunteers as mere scarecrows, and persons that would spread confusion. He thought there was nothing more praiseworthy in the volunteers, than their determined perseverance. The corps that he commanded, and most of those with which he was acquainted, still mustered strong. He objected, principally, to the abolition of permanent duty, and the reduction of the drill serjeants. He concluded by moving, " That this house doth thankfully acknowledge, and highly approve of the services of the different corps of Yeomanry and Volunteers of the united kingdom; and doth think it necessary to record its decided opinion, that the due encouragement of the zeal and patriotism which the Yeomanry and Volunteers have so eminently displayed, in the maintenance of their establishment and the preservation of their discipline, would contribute, in an essential degree, to the
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defence and internal security of the country."
Mr. Dentseconded the motion. After a general panegyric of the Volunteers, he took, notice of several expressions which were made in contempt and derision of them. He particularly dwelt on what had been advanced by an hon. member (col. Craufurd), respecting the trade of col. Birch; as if, because he made pies and jellies, he was, on that account, to be excluded from the service of his country. After repeating many of the expressions, which had, at different times, been imputed to a right hon, secretary (Mr. Windham), he concluded by stating his opinion, that ministers dared not to move the previous question upon this motion of thanks to the Volunteers; for that, although minorities, in that house, must yield to majorities, yet it was not always to be expected that the public should remain quiet.
Sir R. Milbankesaid, he had the honour of commanding a corps of Volunteers, who were as zealous as any set of men in the world. He entertained the same opinion of the whole body; they were honest, he knew, and, he believed, bold; and, therefore, deserved the thanks of their country. In this vote he concurred with all his heart; but he wished, very much, that the hon. bart. had confined himself to a vote of thanks, as he conceived that his majesty's ministers should have a power of regulating the force of the country in, whatever-way was considered best for its support.
General Phippssaid, he was one of those, who were appointed to inspect the Volunteers; and he had certainly stated, in his report, that many of them were fit to serve. in the line, and better than some of the militia; but there were none of them superior to the regular army. He did not wish, he said, to make any severe remark on the conduct of his majesty's ministers; but he really thought the Volunteers had been dispirited. It was much to be regretted, he thought, that they no longer had the advantage of the inspecting field-officers, and, also, that the drill serjeants had been discontinued, as, without the advantages to be derived from them, he did not think they could be of much service to their country. The hon. general concluded, by declaring that, from his high opinion of the Volunteers, it was impossible he could act otherwise than support the motion.
Mr. Secretary Windhamsaid, the hon. general seemed to labour under a mistake,

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with respect to the drill serjeants; they were not abolished, nor had such an idea ever entered into his mind. His intention was, merely to reduce their pay; still, however, leaving as much as would make it an object for them to continue in the service. By the new regulation, the pay of the drill serjeant would be 7s. a day, for every day they were called out; which was, in his opinion, fully sufficient. The other point, to which his hon. friend had alluded, was, with respect to the opinion given of the state of discipline of the Volunteers. For his part, he always understood it as the opinion of the inspectors, that the greater part of the Volunteers could go through the general manœuvres with as much precision as the regular army; but, even though they could do this, and act with troops of the line, it was not pretended they were so good as troops of the line. There was something, therefore, beyond the mere military manœuvres, in which they were deficient. Was this courage? Certainly not; the volunteers were as brave men as the men who composed the line; and men who were not volunteers, as brave as men who were; but, as a body, they had not all the qualifications of the regular army. The regiments of the line, even though filled with recruits, had the advantage of experienced serjeants and corporals; each regiment had a name, which it was necessary to support, and which never died with the individuals who, perhaps, acquired it; they were also inured to pay severe obedience to their officers; which the volunteers were not; and, for all these reasons, it was impossible that they could be as desirable a force as the regular army. With respect to the resolution proposed, it was, first, necessary to see whether the reasons given, to induce the house to vote it, were sufficient; and, for his part, he did not think they were; as, in the first place, the hon. gent. had not set out on facts; for, after stating that his majesty's ministers were about to get rid of them, he advised the house, at least, to give them a bene decessit before they went. This was the mis-statement he complained of; for, it was not now, nor was it ever, his intention, to get rid of the volunteers. It could not be expected, that the system should be kept up in the manner it was begun, as the private subscriptions, which were double the 5 millions advanced by government, never would be repeated ; and he, therefore, thought it should be considered, that
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any reduction made in the expense, did not tend to destroy, but to support, the system. The right hon. gent. then adverted to what had been said, with respect to the permanent duty; but, he conceived, the expense was so great, as to warrant his taking it away; and with regard to the system of training, he thought, that would evidently tend to increase the volunteers. He again contended, that the reasonings of the hon. gent. were incorrect: certain it was, that he thankfully acknowledged, and highly approved of, the conduct of the navy and army, for the last year; but he had not any idea of moving a vote of thanks to them, as there was no instance which pointed out the necessity; therefore, he did not think thanks should be voted to the volunteers, as there was no particular reason for it; that stated, of their being dispirited, not being well founded. It would not, however, be proper, he thought, to put a negative on the resolution, as some parts of it were true; but, as other parts of it were untrue, and unsupported, he thought, the best mode of disposing of it was, by the previous question; which he should support, if any hon. gent. should think proper to move it.
Mr. Fullerthought the right hon. gent. had been, in error, with respect to the volunteers; and it would be more consistent with his manliness, to avow it. If the right hon, gent. could be brought to recant his errors, and make the volunteers the backbone of his system, he might raise such a military force as no enemy could overcome, and lease the army completely disposable. As to the resolution, he thought the house ought to agree to it, as it would make up the breach between the right hon. gent. and the volunteers, and record the opinion of the house, that the volunteers had deserved well of their country.
Lord Ossulstonstated some arguments against the resolution, in the shape and manner in which it had been brought forward, and concluded by moving the previous question upon it.
Mr. Bankessaid, it was argued that this vote of thanks should not be given, because there was no change made with respect to the volunteers. A great change had been made in the army and navy; as, in consequence of the high opinion the country entertained of them, their pay had been augmented. Now, With regard to the volunteers, the direct contrary course had been taken; and he, therefore, thought it was

1109
necessary that the country should declare, that they entertained a high opinion of them. The hon. gent. then expressed a degree of sorrow, that certain words had been dropped by the right hon. gent.; and he really thought that, by his words, and not his acts, he had injured the spirit of the volunteers; with respect to the latter, he had generally supported him in them; but the former, he said, had been spread all over the country; and it, therefore, became parliament to declare, that the. services of the volunteers were acceptable, and a continuance of them was hoped for. He then entered into a detail of the advantages which would be derived from the new system of training; which he thought preferable to the volunteers, but which would be subsidiary to them. He would ask his hon. friends below him,. with what view they brought forward this resolution? Was it with a view of embarrassing those who had the conduct of the nation entrusted to them? He also called on the right hon. gent. opposite him, to join him in excluding, from the resolution, whatever would cast a reflection on the majority of the house, by calumniating the measures which had been adopted by them and then pass the vote of thanks to the volunteers. The hon. gent. concluded by hoping, that the motion for the previous question would be withdrawn; and that his hon. friends would allow some words to be struck out of the resolution which, to him, appeared .exceptionable.
Sir R. Williamssaid, he could not conceive a milder, or more proper motion than this, which had, for its object, to thank those who had merited well of their country, and he gave it his hearty concurrence.
Mr. Wilberforcethought, that the only way in which any return could be made to -the volunteers was, by such a mark of parliamentary approbation. If any particular expressions were exceptionable he should wish, that the hon. mover would accede to some alteration, but none which would diminish the force of any language indicative of the favourable sentiments that house entertained of the conduct of the volunteers.
General Tarletoncontemplated the volunteers with respect: 25,000 were ready to defend the metropolis of the empire; and, he thought, with no troops, whether of the militia or the regulars, would the capital be in a better state of security, than
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when defended by her own citizens. Three thousand volunteers were attached to the district he commanded; on a sudden, without previous notice, he ordered them from Bristol to Bath, and from Bath to Bristol; every obstruction was given them purposely; near Bath, they were four hours on the ground; and when they had performed this journey, of 32 miles, in one day, not a man was missing on their return. A more narrow inspection would shew, the volunteers deserved the character they had acquired. The hon. general entered into a florid description of the state of the army, militia, and volunteers; expressing, at the same time, his intention to support the motion; and his concern, that such a period was chosen for change and innovation. He concluded with reciting the dying exclamation of the late minister, "O, my country!" which he attributed to his concern, that the government should fall into the hands into which it had devolved.
Mr. Sheridan roseand said: Sir; although I could not have remained wholly silent during this debate; yet I wished to have heard the sentiments of others, before I delivered my opinion; but what has fallen from two hon. gentlemen, who have recently spoken, has induced me to abandon my original design, and to avail myself of this opportunity to solicit the attention of the house. I am desirous to abstain from all party allusions; and never wish to censure those who, from early attachment, and long habit, feel a peculiar ardour of affection for the late right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt); but, whether the hon. general belongs to that number, I will not pretend to determine. I think that gallant officer was not perfectly correct, when he ascribed the impassioned exclamation of the late minister to his regret that the affairs of the empire should be consigned to the present servants of the crown: that eminent person, no doubt, fully expected that his own companions in office would remain in power, and, under this painful reflection, his anxiety for his country is fully explained; for what would have become of it in such hands, is sufficiently obvious. As to the measures that have been brought forward for the defence of the country, I have absented myself from the house whilst they have been under discussion, because of my opinion upon them. They were not the measures of my right hon. friend, but of the whole of his majesty's cabinet; and when founded on authorities which I so

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highly respect, I did not think it becoming of me to oppose them. I have not yet expressed my views of this military subject; but it may easily be expected of me declare, that the defence of the kingdom ought not to be entrusted, exclusively, to a regular army; and history has instructed us, that there never was a but country which preserved its liberties, that, exposed itself to this danger; nor, sir,I fairly say, would I, on any occasion, give my vote to deduct one man from the great constitutional force—the militia. Acting under the influence of similar principles, I have always resisted the compulsory bills, stating it to be the undoubted prerogative of his majesty, to select any individuals from the great body of the community, to place them in the ranks of the regular army, and to send them to any part of the kingdom. It is true, the judges, and some public offic, were excepted; but the whole of such a bill should become a dead letter. It is not necessary that I should now state my opinion on that subject ; but I wish distinctly to be understood, that, with regard to the volunteers, I never shall vary my sentiments. I did, before, move the thanks of the house to that meritorious body ;and, in so doing, I gave them a pledge of the spirit in which I would support their interests, character, and dignity. If, sir, they deserved this mark of public feeling, merely for the promptitude with which they stepped forward for the defence of the state, how much higher are their claims to merit, when they have done that service which they, then, only intimated a disposi- tion to perform! With respect to the drill serjeants, and some other minor matters of regulation, it may be eligible to leave these in the hands to which such subjects are officially committed. But I think, that the reports of the military inspectors have been treated with a degree of levity which is neither candid nor decent. Are we to say, that the general officers are chargeable with misrepresentation, in order to deceive government, to lull ministers into a consciousness of security which is fallacious; or are we to presume, that as honourable men, as gentlemen and officers, they do render the accounts now upon your not aware, how those who concurred in. table ? If these be accurate, ought the volunteers to be undervalued? Sir, it is a fact most notorious, that nothing made so strong an impression on the French government, during their hostile designs upon this country, as the energy manifested by
1112
the volunteers: the effect was equally felt by Buonaparte and his minister Talleyrand; they saw, with mortification, that the nation would be indebted, for its independence, to its own valour. The people of England did not prostrate themselves, and petition the sovereign, O king! hire us an army, and we shall be protected ;" but they took the weapon into their own hands, to wield it in their own cause. I fairly say, that as the motion is now worded, I cannot vote for it. I shall, therefore, before I sit down, submit to the house a middle proposition, not liable to the same objections with the original proposition. What were the motives of the hon. gentlemen, in the form in which they have shaped this motion, I will not prejudge; but they may very correctly he ascertained, by the spirit in which they receive the variation I shall suggest. The passage to which I object is retrospective; the language is, "it is necessary to declare." Why is it " necessary," unless something has been done indicative of a different temper to that which the motion is intended to exhibit? It is admitted, on all sides, that if my right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) have intimated any thing at all injurious to the volunteers, it is confined to mere expressions. In his acts, it is admitted on all sides, that he has done nothing which can, justly, be deemed prejudicial to them. But, has no dexterity been employed to pervert his meaning ? Sir, I will frankly confess that, formerly, I have had differences with my right hon. friend on this subject. He, perhaps, in the heat of debate, and in the ebullition of wit, used stronger terms than his deliberate judgment would have employed; and, possibly, having altered his situation, he is not disposed to shew, that this change has governed his opinions. The motion I should wish now to substitute, would be similar to another to which I have already referred: " That the thanks of this house be given to the several corps of yeomanry .and volunteers, for the promptitude and zeal with which they have stood forward for the defence of the country in the moment of public danger." This motion was acceded to, without a dissentient voice; and I am not aware, how those who concurred in. that proposition can, consistently, resist that which I shall presently recommend. It has been said that rumours are abroad, that the government designs to discourage the volunteers. These vague reports are, however, met by a distinct avowal, by my

1113
right hon. friend, that the measure to which he has resorted will increase, and Cannot diminish,their numbers. Whether the training bill is calculated to have this beneficial effect, it is not my present business to enquire. But, be they just, or incorrect, rumours have prevailed, and an idea has gone forth, that administration is unfriendly to the volunteer system; and no more successful means can be employed, to prevent any misconstruction with regard to the intentions of ministers and parliament, than a vote of thanks, couched in terms expressive of the sense entertained of the important services of the volunteers. Again, they say, why do you not thank the navy and army, as well as the volunteers? Sir, the army and navy cannot be insensible of the estimation in which they are held by this house, and by the country in general and they are sufficiently and properly convinced of their own importance: they know we cannot dispense with the protection they afford. The volunteers are not so firmly persuaded, that they receive the applause they deserve, and, perhaps, they feel too diffident an opinion of their own utility. Besides, the army and navy cannot disband themselves at pleasure; the volunteers may from some real or supposed provocation and this is the serious evil I am most so licitous to avoid by the vote I have proposed, all misunderstanding will be prevented. From these considerations, I am very desirous that the hon. member should withdraw his motion. I think he must see that the effect of it, in its present shape, mus be, to attach a stigma on ministers; and what is yet more objectionable, on the house itself, for the legislative regulations it ha already adopted, applicable to the military system. If the intention be purely, simply and honestly, to impart to the volunteers a conviction of the favourable sentiment of this house towards them, let them present the motion in a point of view, wind will induce this side of the house to concur with them; if, under this ostensible design they have other concealed motives, it will be in vain to expect this uniformity. I shall conclude, sir, with moving, ''That this house doth thankfully acknowledge, are highly approve, the services of the different corps of yeomanry and volunteers." Whatever may be the result of the proceeding of this night, I. will confidently at Bert that, in any former period in the history of this country, there never was a body of men who deserved more the gratitude of
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the nation, who merited more highly its love, respect, and veneration ; and, nothing can be more becoming the house of. commons than, by a solemn act, to record this effusion of public sentiment.
Mr. Percevalobjected to the form recommended by the right hon. gent., because the motion, as he worded it, was not prospective. He said, he wished to preserve the volunteers undiminished, and yet. there wars no reference to the rumours by which it was apprehended their numbers would be reduced. The right hon gent. ventured to declare, that he disapproved of the measures of ministers on tins subject, and yet it was well known that he had not opposed them in the whole progress of the business. If he could thus compromise his public duty, he should not be surprised, if, on that side the house, his motion was listened to with some jealousy, as calculated to screen his friends, without conducing to any beneficial purpose. In supporting the motion of his hon. friend, he had no particular attachment to the phraseology of that motion, nor any objection to an amendment in any other form of words which the right hon. gent. might think fit to propose, provided they expressed the spirit of the original motion, and had a view to declare the wish of the house, not only to thank the volunteers for their past services, but that those important services might be continued in future. The right hon. gent. however, should rather have called for the concurrence of his friends around him in the amendment he wished to propose, than to the opposite side of the house, who proposed the very motion which the hon. gent. had approved, upon every other ground, except that it was now necessary to express thanks to the volunteers. The right hon. gent. had been pleased to say, that his right hon. friend had never used any expression intentionally injurious or degrading to the volunteers, but that his words had been misrepresented or exaggerated, with a view to prejudice him in the public opinion. He himself, however, recollected that right hon. gent.'s expression, when a former vote of thanks was proposed to the volunteers; and when he warned the house against premature approbation to that body, whom they had not yet seen acting in a tune of general election or general scarcity : and he should be glad to know if such language was not calculated to create a degrading diffidence in their loyalty, and to excite their disgust.

1115
With respect to their discipline, which b was an object of so much Importance still farther to improve, what had the right hon. gent. done upon that head, to evince his wish of continuing and encouraging the volunteers? Why, he had brought in a bill. in which he had abolished their permanent duty, the best source of their discipline taken away their inspecting officers, and effect deprived them of their drill-serjeants, by reducing their pay from is. 6d. to 6d, per day, for which sum it was not to be supposed the services of these serjeant could be continued: but in fact, in this instance, a great injury and injustice war offered to these serjeants, who had entered under a compact of permanent pay, and subject to all the severities of martial law: that compact was suddenly broken, while they were still liable to martial law. The hon. and learned gent. concluded by supporting the original motion, although he was desirous of agreeing with any amend. meat proposed from the other side of the house, that should be adapted so as to effect unanimity.
Mr. Sheridanrose to explain; and complained that he had been misrepresented and very unfairly treated by the hon. and learned gent., who had thought proper to charge him with having neglected his duty, in not attending that house during the discussions which had taken place upon the various parts of his right hon. friend's military plan, to join with those who opposed them; and with compromising that duty, now, by moving an amendment of a suspicious nature. He begged to remind the house, that he had fairly avowed his reasons for absenting himself from the discussions which took place upon the several plans of his right hon. friend; and would tell the hon. and learned gent. that he was not to be schooled by him, as to what times he should think proper to attend, or to be absent from that house. he had fairly acknowledged that he was at variance with the opinions of his right hon. friend upon the whole of his military arrangements, but he begged at the same time to observe, that he did not consider those plans merely as belonging to his right hon. friend, but as adopted by the whole of his majesty's cabinet; and whatever might be the expectation of the hon. and learned gent., that he should come down to the house, and join him and his coadjutors, in opposition to his own friends and colleagues, he had only to say, that though he should ever maintain
1116
the right and independence of his own opinions, he would not have the arrogance to come down to the house and oppose those opinions against the whole cabinet of those ministers with whom, upon most other topics, he coincided; and he was sure that that cabinet would never look to him for the subserviency of sacrificing that independence of opinion to any consideration of office; at least if ever they should so expect, they would be disappointed.
Lord Howicksaid, that though his original intention was to support the previous question, yet, in consequence of the speech of his right hon. friend, he was in some suspense whether he should not change his first opinion, and vote for the amendment he suggested, with a view, if possible, to conciliate the unanimity of the house, so desirable on the present occasion but, from the temper and disposition displayed in the speech of the hon. and learned gent. and the determination evinced by him, notwithstanding his specious professions, to resist all amendments of a conciliatory nature, and to persist in the original motion, he was now decided in his first opinion for the previous question; not from any opinion whatever that the volunteers were not entitled to the highest approbation and gratitude of parliament, and of their country, but that no occasion whatever had occurred since the thanks of parliament were last voted to them, to render any renewal of that vote at present necessary; and if any member was to propose a similar vote of thanks to the army or the navy, (the merits and importance of whose services could not be denied) without the concurrence of some particular occasion, he should conceive it a violation of his duty not to oppose such a motion by the previous question. He hoped, however, that his right hon. friend, who proposed to mediate in the present case by a conciliatory motion, for the purpose of obtaining unanimity, would take a lesson for the future from the speech of the learned gent. that would teach him how little was to be expected from conciliation or compromise in that quarter. He vindicated the conduct of his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) relative to the volunteers, as well as his plans for the new modification of the services of this body; but did not mean to follow the example of gentlemen on the opposite side of the house, by going into a general debate upon all the other military topics which had been so repeatedly, and he had almost

1117
said vexatiously, discussed in the course of the session. He would just advert, however, to the speech of an hon, general (Tarleton), who had made such a brilliant display of military knowledge, and his surprising detail of the memorable march of eight handed men from Bath to Bristol, and the astonishing spirit they had displayed under his command, considering the difficulties they had to encounter in the dangers of Bristol market, and the conduct of their baggage through defiles of booths, waggons, and carts, their labours in the manœuvres of the day, and the course of their long march, unbroken by fatigue, and undiminished in their numbers. He was willing to acknowledge the prowess and skill displayed by the hon. general in the feats of that signal day, and he believed it had no parallel in the military annals of this country, save in that of the celebrated march from Breutford to Hounslow, and from Hounslow to Finchley, under the famous Major Sturgeon, when, " with drums beating in the front, and dogs barking in the rear, the gallant commander marched with his troops in the closest order, until an unlucky drove of oxen from Smithfield threw his whole corps into confusion"—[a laugh]. His lordship concluded by again professing the highest respect for the volunteers, the most grateful sense of their services to their country, a sense which must be retained by that country and parliament to the remotest posterity ; but as no new occasion called fora repetition of the thanks formerly voted to them, as the whole value of that honour chiefly consisted in its unfrequency, as it would be a departure from the dignity of the house to vote their thanks or every trivial occasion, he should vote for the previous question. But if the happy hour of peace was come, when the services of those corps would cease to be necessary, no man would be more prompt than himself to propose, second, or support a vote of thanks to them.
Mr. Canningsupported the original motion, and agreed with his hon. friend (Mr, Perceval) in objecting to the motion proposed by Mr. Sheridan, because it we merely retrospective, and had no view to future services; it was not a preface but postscript, not an exhortation but an epitaph. He went over much of the ground upon which the previous question had beer previously opposed, and contended, the coming from the quarter it did, and supported by the same right hon. gent, whose
1118
sentiments, frequently expressed in that house, were known to be inimical to the volunteers, he must consider it as coming indirectly from him; for though it was the voice of Jacob, still the stroke came front the hand of Esau, and it would be utterly impossible for the most hostile government, determined to express the most hostile opinion to the continuance of the volunteer system, to do so in more direct and unequivocal terms than by a previous question, on an occasion like this. It was impossible to construe it in any other way; and he thanked his majesty's ministers for thus candidly expressing their sentiments, and setting all doubt at rest, as to their intentions respecting the continuance of the volunteers.
Mr. Secretary Windhamreplied, and positively denied any such wish or intention as the discontinuance of the volunteers; his wishes and intentions were the direct contrary way; notwithstanding the artful attempts of his opponents to affix such designs on him. In answer to what had been said relative to drill-serjeants, he observed, that the very clause which reduced their pay, gave them the option of retiring if they chose.
Mr. Whitbreadadverted to a tight hon. gent.'s (Mr. Canning) observation, that we ought to thank the volunteers now, because we had further need of their services, but that the reason of other military bodies not having received the thanks of parliament last war was because we had done with them. This was a sort of gratitude which he hoped he (Mr. W.) should never be induced to hold out to those who, in the most spirited and most patriotic manner, stood forward in defence of their country. The right hon. gent. had made some allusion to an epitaph, but the house would perceive that it was when a man was dead that we generally thought the fittest time to write epitaphs and praise him. He would be most willing to return thanks to the volunteers if there was an end of their services.
Lord Castlereaghsaid a few words in support of the original motion; and upon a division, the numbers were :—For the previous question, 75; for the original, motion, 41; majority against the original motion, 34.—The original motion was then withdrawn.
Mr. Sheridanthen observed, that suspicion and jealousy had, from whatever causes whether from misconception or misrepresentation, of late appeared among the vo-

1119
lunteers, with regard to the measures and intentions of government. In order to remove this suspicion, he would beg leave to propose the following resolution, which was nearly similar to what he had before moved, namely,—"That this house continues to retain its cordial sense of the zealous exertions of the several corps of yeomanry and volunteers of the United Kingdom, associated for the defence of their country, and doth highly approve the perseverance and patriotism they so eminently display in continuing to be associated for that object."—The motion was seconded by Mr. Vansittart.
Lord Howickthen said, that, however painful it might be to his feelings, thinking so highly as he did of the zeal and patriotism of the volunteers, yet when he considered the nature of the debate that had taken place that night, and the diversity of opinions that had been manifested, he felt himself called upon to move the previous question.
Mr. Canningobserved, that though the present motion fell short of what he had wished; yet having failed in his first object, this motion should have his cordial support.
Mr. Hiley Addingtonsaid, that no man was a warmer friend to the volunteers than he was; but he could not see any present call for such a measure. It was a possible event that peace was at no great distance, when it would be much better to pass a vote of thanks to the volunteers when their services were finished, then it would be to anticipate such a vote at present.
Lord H. Pettysupported the amendment, and concluded with observing, that he trusted that a time would come, when a motion for thanks would be proposed that was not dictated by party motives, or the fancy of individuals.
Mr. Percevalexpressed his astonishment that the noble lord should ascribe a motion to party motives, that was proposed by a distinguished member of the administration to which he belonged, and that had been seconded by an honourable secretary. He would therefore leave it to these gentlemen to determine which were influenced by party motives. Those gentlemen who had formerly supported a vote of thanks, were equally bound to do so now.
Mr. Vansittartsaid, that, having formerly concurred in a vote of this nature, he felt it impossible to refuse concurring with it now. A division then took place, and there
1120
appeared—For the previous question, 69; against it, 39; majority, 30.—The house then adjourned at four o'clock on Saturday morning.

MINUTES.
Sir T. Metcalfeobtained leave to bring in a bill for incorporating the Globe Insurance Company.—Mr. Alderman Combe obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend so much of an act for the improvement of the port of London, as related to the compensations to be granted in certain cases.—A message from the Lords announced that their lordships had resolved to proceed farther on the trial of lord Melville the next day, at ten of the o'clock, in Westminster-hall; and that they had agreed to the Irish stamp-duty bill. The Speaker mentioned, that, in consequence of this message; he would take the
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chair the next morning at 10, and that the names of the managers and members would be called over at half past ten as usual.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee on the General Assessed Tax act. The resolution relative to the exemptions were read and agreed to, and those who were appointed to bring in the Assessed Tax bill were ordered to make provision accordingly.

WEST INDIA ACCOUNTS BILL.
Lord Henry Pettymoved for the order of the day for the house resolving itself into a committee on the West India Accounts bill.
Mr. Rosewished, that, considering the state of ignorance in which the house was on this subject, the noble lord would allow at least 24 hours to examine into it. With a view to induce him to do this, he entered at some length into what had been done before, for correcting the West India abuses, and into the merits of this bill. He stated, that in 1797 he himself had corresponded with the West India commissioners of the customs, respecting the abuses committed in the West Indies, and that the consequence was, that the commissary-general was superseded; that the commissioners were ordered to make inquiries into the abuses, and to report to the treasury; that the auditors had been applied to, in order to learn whether any increase of their establishment would enable them to bring up these accounts; that the auditors had answered, that this business would require 16 additional clerks, and four additional inspectors, and that these must go through a gradual course of instruction; that the treasury had taken this answer into consideration the day on which it was given in, and the consequence of all had been, the act which by the present bill was intended to be repealed. The noble lord, he said, had come down to the house, out of breath, mentioned that monstrous abuses had been discovered, and given notice that he would, in a short time, state to the house what would astonish them, but that he would do something that would quiet their apprehensions, and the consequence was this bill. Now, a bolder attempt, merely to gain patronage, without the smallest prospect of advantage to the public, never was exhibited in this world. One great object of the noble lord appeared to be to discredit the late administration, and to praise himself. Commissioners had already been appointed for the professed object of this bills and the bill did, in fact, nothing more

609
than had been done by the former one. In order to prove this, he commented on the different clauses of the present bill. It appointed 19 commissioners, including those which had been before appointed, out of which nine were new appointments, with an expence, he supposed, of 1500l. a year. It placed the power of appointing these commissioners in the treasury a thine had never been done in any act since the Revolution. Excepting these additional commissioners, the additional expence, and the unprecedented patronage for the treasury, the bill did nothing more than the former bill. The whole professed object might be answered without any additional expence, and therefore the bill appeared to be nothing else than a piece of management to fix the character of negligence and inattention on the late government, and to increase the popularity and patronage of the present. He hoped, therefore, that a delay of 24 hours would be granted.
Lord Henry Pettythought it remarkable, that after the right hon. gent had stated the ignorance of the house on this subject, he had gone into a full discussion on the point, and availed himself of that ignorance in order to favour his own views. He had no objection to the delay, but he would prove that the object was not to procure patronage from the treasury, although tins was a strange objection from the right hon. gent. He would prove that a more useful measure, both generally and in detail, had never been submitted to the house on this subject. As to the statement respecting his conduct in proposing the measure, he did not think it worth his while to give any detailed answer. He could only assure the house that he had not been out of breath, and that he had given no such notice of something to astonish the house, as the right hon. gent. had stated, and for the truth of this he appealed to the recollection of the house. As to the apointment of the commissioners, the right hon. gent. had Stated that an additional nine had been permanently appointed, whereas the appointment was only temporary, and particularly applicable to the circumstances of the case, as the accounts were, from neglect, in such a situation, that nothing but such a measure as this could bring them into the condition in which they ought to be. He concluded by moving that the house should the next day go into the committee.
Mr. Roseasked When the noble lord in-
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tended to bring forward his general plan for auditing the public accounts, as he would then prove to the house that there was no foundation for the charges of negligence that had been brought against the late administration?
Lord H. Pettysaid, he booed in a very few days he should be able to bring forward the bill to which the right hon. gent. alluded.
Mr. Rosegave notice, that he would tomorrow move for certain accounts, which would he necessary to throw a light on this subject.

AFFAIRS OF INDIA.
Mr. Paullmoved that the order of the house of the 22d of April last, relative to Indian papers, should be obeyed forthwith. This was a greed to. He then moved that the correspondence of the governor-general and his secretary, with major Ouseley, aid-de-camp to the nabob vizier, during the year 1802, should be laid before the house.
Sir A. Wellesleyhad no objection, on the part of the marquis Wellesley, but, as it involved the character of Mr. Treeves, a gentleman who was absent, he submitted whether it would not be better to give a notice at present, and leave the board of controul to consider whether the correspondence ought to be produced.
Mr. Paullsaid that he did not move for these papers with any view to the character of the gentleman alluded to; but they were very important with respect to the Oude charge, as they Would prove that major Ouseley had been threatened with disgraceful expulsion, except he made some communication which had been required of him.
Mr. Wellesley Poletrusted that the house would observe, that there was no objection to the production of this correspondence, on the part of the friends of marquis Wellesley. They only meant to enter their protest against any attack on the character of an individual who had no opportunity of defending himself.
Mr. Creeveythought the hon. gent. should have given notice of such a motion as the present.
Mr. Paullsaid, that after the charge had been so long on the table, he did lot think he was or ought to be confined strictly to the rules respecting notices. It was very different from the first opening of a business of this kind. The papers were highly essential to the elucidation of the charge, and he thought he had a right to move for

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them immediately: he had, however, no objection that what had passed should stand as a notice for to-morrow.

CHELSEA HOSPITAL BILL.
Mr. Secretary Windhammoved the third reading of the Chelsea Hospital bill.
Mr. Huskissonobserved, that his objections to this measure had received strength from a more mature consideration of them. He still maintained that parliament ought not to bind itself to pay any money without an estimate, and he also thought that the plan was derogatory to the crown, as the object might have been attained by its power without this application to parliament. He then objected to the plan of limited service, which, in his opinion, would put it out of the power of parliament to disband any part of the army without continuing their pay, and might spread a number of veterans over the country, which, like those of Sylla, Marius, and Octavius Cæsar, might be dangerous to the liberties of the country.—Mr. Windham was rising, when
General Tarletonsaid, that such an important measure ought not to be discussed in so thin a house, and moved the standing order, that the house be counted. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw; but there being 40 members present, the discussion was continued.
Mr. Secretary Windhamentered into a general history of the debates that had taken place on the subject of his military system, and observed that the arguments which were at one time advanced by the hon. gent. opposite, were so completely at variance with those adopted by the same hon. gent. at another, that the one set of arguments might very fairly serve fear an answer to the other. However he should endeavour to satisfy the hon. gent. as to each distinct point of objection, without any consideration of it in a relative view with respect to the objections which were at other times started. The argument as to what was called the invasion of the right of parliament seemed now to be principally dwelt upon. But he would beg gentlemen to consider for a moment, first, what was the nature of the confidence generally placed in the crown; then, what sort of confidence that was which was acted on with respect to the army in particular at other times. By, comparison, these gentlemen Would see how far the principle of the present bill was at variance with, or agreeable to, those general principles which have been uniformly acted on by parliament. In all
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treaties, but most particularly in commercial treaties, was there not a degree of confidence reposed in the crown? But, more especially, did we see the existence of that confidence in any transaction relative to the army? Was not the soldier first engaged by the crown, and was not that engagement afterwards sanctioned by parliament? Were not the terms now agreed on for life, and yet did not parliament annually deliberate whether they should approve of that engagement or not? And there could be no doubt that parliament had the power of refusing to grant the pay to the soldier, or where was the use of an annual mutiny bill? In the interim the soldier had to rely on parliament for his pay; the same principle would still be to he acted on. Then, as to the argument, that by the periodical discharge of men, the country would be overloaded with these dangerous set of veterans, at a time when every statesman acknowledged the necessity of adding to the military strength of the nation, would any man seriously declare that it would be wrong to have such a corps-de-reserve to call upon in case of any sudden emergency? Were not the volunteers a military body; nay, were they not military with arms in their hands? and yet, danger was said to be apprehended from these unarmed men who shall have obtained their discharge front the army, and return to the avocations of civil life! Where, he would ask, was the consistency in these modes of reasoning? It was said, however, that we could not disband a regiment in time of peace because the terms had been agreed on, and that, it we discharged a soldier, we should rob him of the benefit to which he would have otherwise been entitled at the expiration of his seven years, and so forth. Gentlemen need only to look at the specific term of the oath, where it is expressly stated that a man engages to serve so long "in case the king shall have occasion for his services." Then, surely, there could not be any breach of contract, nor can we be said to have acted ungenerously by a man when we shall have told him that the king has no longer any occasion for his services; when at the same time the man knows that he has sworn to continue in the service with that precise condition that the king shall so long have occasion for his services. If this was wrong, he would ask again, what would become of the annual mutiny bill? Instead of these circumstances being objectionable, he should think it a considerable advantage to have such men

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to recruit from, at the commencement of a war, or any other emergency. If it was true that such men were dangerous amongst us, then we must be considered as a most unwarlike people, who have nothing in ourselves for defence, but must entirely depend upon a standing army.
Mr. Huskissonexplained his objection to be, that after this bill, men would be receiving the pay of soldiers, without being really such.
Sir J. Pulteneythought it strange that a measure of so much importance should be debated and pressed forward in so thin an attendance.
Lord Castlereaghsaid, he had a number of objections to offer, which he wished to submit at considerable length, but he thought it improper to be under time necessity of doing so, when there were not members present sufficient to constitute a house.
Mr. Windhamreplied, that he came down to the house in full confidence that no opposition would be made in this last stage of a bill, which had been so fully discussed before, and he was convinced it was under the same impression so many gentlemen left the house.
General Tarletonthen moved, that the house should be counted; upon which the gallery was cleared, and there being no more than 35 members present, the house accordingly adjourned.

Minutes.
Their lordships proceeded further in the Appeal "Seymour v. the earl of Euston and lord Henry Seymour." Mr. Perceval was heard on the part of the respondents, after which the further consideration of the appeal was postponed till Friday.—The Earl of Elgin took the oaths and his seat.—Earl Stanhope rose to address the house with respect to the form of proceeding the next day in Westminster Hall. Upon which strangers were excluded, and the discussion continued for near two hours.—Lord Eldon presented a petition from W. Watson, esq. the serjeant at arms, stating the inadequacy of the emoluments attached to the office, which were unequal to the expenditure necessary in executing its duties; and praying for such relief as the house should think fit. His lordship supported the object of the petition, and was seconded by Earl Spencer. The petition was ordered to be referred to a committee on Monday.—An undefended appeal having been heard and decided upon, Lord Eldon took the oportunity of giving notice, that he should, next session, bring forward some measure respecting costs in appeals, as at present the house could not award more than 200l, although the expences might actually amount to 7 or 800l. It then became an object with some persons to appeal to that house, merely for the purpose of gaining time, in cases where the interest of the money in the mean time, before the appeal could be. heard, rendered the costs to be ultimately paid a matter of little consequence. The, Lord Chancellor said, it was a great abuse, and ought to be remedied.

MILITARY OPINIONS RELATING TO THE ARMY,
Lord Hawkesburyadverted to the opinions which had been given by several general officers on the subject of enlisting for a term of years, and which, he said, had been called for in consequence of an opinion entertained by members of the late and preceding administrations that such an alteration in the mode of enlistment would be productive of benefit to the army. In consequence, however, of. the tenor of the opinions which were given to his royal highness the Commander in Chief on being then called for, the idea of proposing enlistment for a term, of years was abandoned. The present administration had, without any additional grounds whereon to found an

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opinion, adopted a contrary sentiment, and he was anxious that the house should be in possession of those opinions of military officers to which he alluded, in order that noble lords might clearly see the grounds on which the late administration had formed a deliberate opinion entirely inimical to enlisting for a term of years, and those on which the bill before the house must rest He saw no good ground of objection to the production of these papers; but if there was any to laying them before the house in detail, he believed there was an. abstract of the opinions and statements contained in them in the office of his royal highness the Commander hi Chief, which might be considered an official paper, and which would answer the desired purpose. His lordship concluded by moving for an humble address to his Majesty, praying that copies of the opinions alluded to might be laid before the house.
The Earl of Moiraconsidered the production of the opinions alluded to as unnecessary and improper. He had, amongst other officers, been called upon for his opinion, in a letter from his royal highness the Commander in Chief, which was marked 'confidential,' and to which he gave an answer, containing his opinion upon the subject, but which he had not the most distant supposition was ever to be laid before parliament. The same idea might probably influence most of the officers who gave their opinions; and who, not conceiving that their sentiments, thus confidentially given, were ever to be made public, might give their opinions in a diffuse and prolix style, or in a manner very different to that which they would have done, had they conceived that their letters were to be laid before parliament; he thought, therefore, it would be indelicate to drag forward opinions, thus privately and confidentially given, before a public assembly, and where the far greater part of the officers who had pronounced such opinions would have no opportunity of explaining their sentiments. Most of these opinions also were those of military men, and not of statesmen; they related to the effect on the interior discipline of regiments, which the measure proposed in the bill before the house might produce, rather than to those enlarged views upon the subject which must necessarily be entertained in that house. He could not, therefore, perceive any good that could be produced, by agreeing to the motion of the noble lord, whilst, at the same time, be deprecated any
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attempt to influence their lordships' minds by the opinions of others; above all, he protested against the idea started by the noble lord, of laying upon the table a paper from the Commander in Chief, in order to influence their lordships' opinions. However high the respect he entertained for that illustrious personage, he must protest against any motion of that description.
The Duke of Montrosecontended, that the papers moved for by his noble friend ought to be produced, in order that many noble lords who had not had an opportunity of considering the question in the manner in which it had come before the late ministers, might see distinctly the grounds on which they had acted, in abandoning that measure, which was now brought forward by his majesty's present ministers. He thought also that the opinions of the officers who had been called upon, having been given in the manner in which they were to the Commander in Chief, might fairly be laid before parliament without the slightest indelicacy towards these officers.
The Earl of Suffolkspoke shortly against the motion, and expressed his opinion, that as other means had failed, it was proper to try the experiment of recruiting the army by means of enlisting for a term of years.
Lord Mulgravethought a different interpretation ought to be put upon the word "confidential" to that given by the noble earl (Moira). From the letters being marked 'confidential,' he should have conceived that it was only intended that the officers receiving them were not to mention the subject to others, or make it a matter of general conversation, but not that they were to call upon the Commander in Chief to keep their opinions secret after they had delivered them. He, as one of the officers called upon, had given air opinion favourable to enlistment for a term of years, but, at the same time, an opinion to which the measure now before the house had scarcely any similarity. He was of opinion that the reason given by the noble earl why the papers ought not to be produced was the very reason why they ought, namely, that in general they were only the opinions of military officers, and not those of statesmen. The house was too enlightened to require opinions from others as to general measures of legislation; but on a subject like the present they wanted military information, and that would be afforded by the production of these papers.
Lord Grenvilleconceived that the ques-

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tion had been much mistated by the noble lords who spoke of those military opinions as information which ought to be laid before the house. As to information, generally speaking, it meant a communication of evidence and of fact, and not merely the opinions of other men. It would be an unprecedented thing for the house to acquire argumentative opinions of those who where not members, in order to influence their determination. It was the duty of his majesty's ministers to collect all the information they could derive from every source, before they brought forward the measures they were to propose; and when those measures were brought forward, it was their duty to support them by their own arguments, and not by the authority of other persons, or the influence of the names of men who where not members. If such a course could be permitted on the present occasion, a similar practice might prevail on almost every other occasion, and the house would have nothing else to do but to listen to the argumentative opinions of other people. He conceived also, that it must be most disagreeable to the military officers themselves, to have a written opinion of theirs argued in a deliberative assembly, where they had no opportunity of explaining the principles upon which it was founded; and he thought the general officers, who had given those opinions, were too well acquainted with the constitution of the country, to suppose that their opinions had been demanded for the purpose of giving to parliament their ideas about the internal and political state of the country at the present crisis.—The motion was put and negatived.

Preamble
[TRAINING BILL.) Earl Spencermoved the order of the day for the house resolving itself into a committee on the Training bill. His lordship observed, that this bill was one to which he could scarcely anticipate any objection. It was founded on the exercise of his majesty's undoubted prerogative, a prerogative which had never been disputed, that of calling out all those who were able to bear arms for the defence of the country against an invading army. The only question that could arise was as to the means of exercising that prerogative. Under the present circumstances of the country, and looking as we must do to the enormously increased power of France, it was evident that it was absolutely necessary that a large efficient force should be kept up ready for the exigency of the moment. The object of the present bill was to train to the use of arms 200,000 men, who might, in case of necessity, come in aid of the other force of the country. It was not to be said that because we had already a large force, that therefore it was unnecessary to resort to other measures; it should be remembered that, on our vast extent of coast, it was impossible strictly to guard every point; it was therefore the more necessary that there should be an efficient force ready to bear down upon any point where their services might be most wanted. Provision was made in this bill, that it should interfere as little as possible with the varied pursuits of the people, or break in much upon their convenience; and, at the same time, an option was given to those who might not wish, for various reasons, to be trained with the persons on whom this bill would generally operate, or who could not go out to be trained without great injury to their business, to pay instead a pecuniary fine. It was also provided, that the number to be called out should be balloted for, which was thought, and justly in his opinion, the fairest mode of choosing the persons to be trained, thereby avoiding all partiality. He was convinced that, when the bill was thoroughly understood in the country, the voluntary zeal and ardour of the people would render it unnecessary to carry the compulsory provisions into execution. The bill might not be immediately operative, but he looked forward to the most beneficial permanent effects from such a system. It

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was not merely at the exigency of the moment that he looked to the bill for aid to the country, but he considered it as a means of inspiring a military character into a large mass of the population of the country, and thus, in the midst of our commerce and our wealth, giving us also military strength, and enabling us to enter, fully prepared, into any future war, with the means of sending out of the country a large disposable force. He concluded by Moving, that the house should resolve itself into a committee on the bill.
Lord Melvillesaid, it was not his wish to oppose any measure which his majesty's ministers considered necessary for the defence of the country, but he must beg leave to express his doubts as to the propriety or utility of the present bill. In considering this measure, he naturally looked to the present state of the military force of the country; and when he found that we had at present a volunteer force of from 3 to 400,000 men, in addition to the regular army and militia, he was induced to ask, where was the necessity of this measure? We had already a large force of a much superior description to any that this bill could give; a force which had arisen out of the voluntary spirit, the zeal and the ardour of the country; a force, in contemplating which, every man might sleep sound in his bed, and consider the country secure. Why then resort to compulsory means, when we had already a sufficient force, and when the country was already secure? To resort now to such a bill as the present, would tend to dishearten and discourage that voluntary force, to whom the country were so much indebted, by telling them that they were of little use; that, notwithstanding all their zeal and ardour, it was still necessary to resort to compulsory means to ensure the security of the country. He did not mean to insinuate that noble lords on the other side had any wish or intention to discourage the volunteers; but declarations had been made, which had gone forth to the country, and which certainly tended to damp the ardour and the spirit of those who had so loyally and so patriotically stepped forward in the hour of danger, to take up arms in defence of the country. How was such a force as the present to be properly disciplined? How was it to be officered? No means were pointed out by which such a force was to be rendered really efficient. A great expence would be incurred in carry-
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ing the provisions of the bill into execution; an expence for which he had not the least doubt that 400,000 volunteers might be provided, properly armed, accoutred, clothed, and officered; a force which, it was needless to say, would be of a much superior description to that which would arise out of the present bill. There was, besides, another objection to the present measure, arising out of a bill of a similar nature, brought forward at the commencement of the war; in which it was provided, that if a number of volunteers came forward, equal to six times the number of the militia, the compulsory provision of training should not he resorted to. Considerably more than that number of volunteers did come forward, and now, notwithstanding that, a new bill was brought in, to carry into execution a compulsory mode of training, and thus to substitute a force which was not known, nor ever had existed in the country, for one which had been already tried and found efficient. He was thoroughly convinced that nothing had tended in a greater degree to silence the boastings of the enemy, and shew him the futility of his schemes against this country, than that zeal and patriotism which had been so eminently evinced by the volunteers; and he appealed upon this subject to a noble lord (Moira) on the other side of the house, who, when commanding in Scotland, spoke in the highest terms of the quality and efficiency of that description of force. If, then, as he contended, the volunteers were an efficient force, where was the necessity of resorting to a measure for training a large portion of the population of the country to arms? The volunteers were, in fact, the trained population of the country, and trained in a manner greatly superior to the training which would be carried into effect under this bill. He agreed in the policy of training young men to arms, and making it a part of their education; but he thought it would be much better to give up the present bill, which could not, at any rate, be carried into effect for some time to come, and next session a bill might be brought in with provisions more adequate to the intended object.
The Earl of Moirasaid, the viscount agreed in the necessity of having a, large efficient force under the present circumstances of the country; the only difference of opinion between them was as to the quality of that force. He had been appealed to by the noble viscount with respect to what

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was formerly uttered by him, as to the efficiency of the volunteer force of Scotland, and to that opinion he still adhered. At the time he commanded in Scotland, he not only undertook the defence of that country, but also of the northern parts of England; and had so high an opinion of the volunteer force, that he would have led them on with the utmost confidence against an invading enemy. It was in that confidence in the volunteers that he parted with the regular troops under his command, who were thereby rendered disposable for the service of the country in other quarters. This was not an overweening confidence, but a confidence founded upon an experience of the efficiency of the volunteer force, a confidence which he still maintained; nor would he hesitate to lead on such a force against any veteran army of France which could effect a landing here. The noble viscount had contended that our present force was sufficient for our defence: this argument might be good, if we could know at what point an enemy might attempt to effect a landing, or that he would only make the attempt at one point; but with our vast extent of coast, this was absolutely impossible, and therefore it became necessary to have a large efficient force in the country, ready for the exigency of the moment. He admitted, that the volunteers were of a much superior description of force to the force which could be procured under the present bill; but it was hot intended, as the noble viscount had said, to substitute this force for the volunteers, but to bring it in aid of them. The noble viscount had talked of expressions which had been used, tending to discourage and dishearten the volunteers; but he disclaimed any such intention in any of his colleagues in office, and maintained that what had been alluded to had been invidiously represented. Our present force, it was said, was sufficient for the defence of the country; but were they to look only to the defence of our coast, without considering the modes adopted by the enemy, of attacking the resources of our commerce and our prosperity in other quarters? No: he looked forward to a period when, if the war continued, we might, by means of our volunteer force, and the force raised under this bill at home, be enabled to send every battalion of regular troops out of the country, to combat the enemy in those quarters where they were attacking our resources and our interests. Were an enemy
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them to land in this country, he would lead on a volunteer army against them with the utmost confidence. It would be wise policy, in such a situation, not to risk a battle without absolute necessity; but, in the mean time, the peasantry trained under this bill might be most advantageously employed in firing from behind hedges and banks upon the columns of the enemy; who, unable to send out detachments, and perpetually harassed by this mode of attack, would ultimately be overwhelmed and completely defeated. He could not conceive by what mode of calculation the noble viscount had discovered that 200,000 volunteers could be raised for the same expence as would be incurred under the present bill. How those 200,000 volunteers were to be raised, it was beyond his comprehension to discover. As to the objection, that there was no provision for officering the men trained under this bill, it was not intended to officer them until the exigency of the moment might require it, but merely to train them to the use of arms, that, in the case of emergency, they night be employed with effect against an enemy, and in aid of the volunteers. He considered the bill to be well calculated for the purposes which he had mentioned, and its provisions to be well adapted to secure the objects intended to be effected.
The Earl of Westmorelandcontended, that the bill imposed a heavy burthen upon the country, without the probability of deriving from it any adequate advantage, There were, he believed, 15,000 parishes; and how were the men in these different parishes to be trained? how many serjeants and constables must there be? how many drums and fifes? what was to be done with the arms? were the serjeants to travel in post-chaises or balloons? There appeared to him to be no adequate provision for car, Lying the object of the bill into effect, The bill, besides, threw a slur upon the volunteers, by declaring that their services were inadequate. It had been said, that opinions given respecting the volunteers had been misrepresented; but was it meant to be stated, that all the newspapers, and all the short-hand writers, had been bribed to circulate a misrepresentation through the country? Were not other measures, not favourable to the volunteers, suggested by his majesty's servants, through the mouth of his majesty?
Lord Grenvillespoke to order. The noble lord was, he conceived, irregular,

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in discussing opinions uttered in another place, and Certainly in mentioning his majesty in the way he had just done.
The Earl of Westmorelandsaid, if the expression he had used was improper, he would say, measures that had been announced by his majesty through the mouths of his servants.
Lord Grenvilleagain spoke to order, declaring it disorderly for any noble person to say, that his majesty spoke through the mouth of any member of parliament.
The Earl of Westmorelandapologised for having used the name of his majesty in any way that was conceived improper; but contended that, in discussing the opinions used in another place, he had only done what had been done before, in the course of the debate. His lordship resumed his arguments against the bill, which, he contended, was not calculated to produce any advantage to the country.
Lord Sidmouthdefended the bill, which, he contended, was not near so rigorous in its provisions, as the bill of a similar description, brought forward when the noble lord (Westmoreland) and himself were in administration. The object of the bill was, to raise a force which might be rendered essentially useful, either by being incorporated with the regulars or the militia, or, in other modes, in the event of an attempt on the part of the enemy. It had been truly said, by a great and eminent character, that we might have, in this country, what an enemy could not bring with him—an armed people, whom no enemy could conquer. It was in this view that the bill was essentially important, as contributing materially to that great object. It had been insinuated by the noble viscount (Melville), that this measure was a breach of faith with the people, in as much as, by the last training bill, compulsory measures were not to be adopted, if the volunteers, to a certain extent, came forward. That bill, however, only authorised his majesty to suspend, in that event, the operation of the compulsory clauses; but did not, nor could, affect his majesty's prerogative to call out the people whenever necessary. The present measure was rendered necessary, in order to raise a force sufficient for the purposes for which it was wanted, and which would come in aid of the volunteers.
Lord Eldondeclared, that no man more highly approved than he had done, and that none could, at this moment, be more firmly convinced than he was, of the propriety and
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merits of the military measures brought forward by the noble viscount who spoke last. The measures of the ministry who succeeded the noble viscount, at the head of whom was that great man whose loss was now so justly deplored, he was also convinced, were the best which could be resorted to, in the situation in which the country was placed. These measures had also been approved of by the noble viscount; and he (lord Eldon) was only afraid, the noble viscount was not entirely aware of the nature of the present measures, introduced by those with whom he now acted, who had so loudly decried the measures of the noble viscount, and of his successor, as being totally weak and inefficient. The opinions of the present government, as to the volunteer force of the country, it was not his wish to judge of from any representations which had taken place out of the house. He must therefore collect it from what he should hear their lordships say in their places that night. He must, however, declare, that, in his opinion, to them this country was not indebted, alone, for safety from a foreign foe; but that, from their being collected together at the period when they were first embodied, was owing the existence, at this moment, of the constitution. The present bill, or any other which could have any tendency to degrade them, or to render their services less beneficial, he could never approve of. He alluded to the promises of ministers, to bring forward a complete military system; not a piece here and a piece there; but contended that, in this, they had completely broken their word; and that, after an interval of some months, first one part of their system, and now, at the distance of another month, another part of their system, had been introduced.
Lord Grenville,after the able statements, in support of the measure, made by his noble friends near him, should not have thought it necessary to say a word on the subject, had it not been for the observations of the learned lord who spoke last. For the right hon. gent., now no more, to whom the noble and learned lord had alluded, no person could feel more strongly than he did. He had been his dearest friend; and when he had differed from him, it was with sincere regret; but, at the same time, he could not sacrifice to him his judgment, and every idea of propriety. With respect to the opinions of his majesty's ministers as to the volunteers, every individual member of administration in this

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house knew, that there was but one opinion among them. This opinion, he desired, might be collected, not from their words, but from their conduct. Had they not been among the first, not merely to countenance and encourage, but, themselves, to take a part in that service; and could it be supposed, that they wished to do any thing which should go to degrade and insult themselves and their comrades and companions in arms? For the government collectively too, he could declare that, so far from degrading, it was their wish to honour and protect the volunteers; to protect them were particularly against that foul insinuation which had been thrown out against them, that they had so little patriotism; as to be deterred, by misrepresentations and misconceptions, from performing their duty to their country. If, however, by saving the country, the noble and learned lord meant, that there was any dread that, but for their existence, our country was, at present, in danger, from its internal enemies, he could by no means follow him that length. He was convinced, it there were; among ourselves, any enemies to the constitution of this country, the occurrence: of the three last years must have been more than sufficient to bring them back into the path of loyalty. His lordship then proceeded to shew, that the present was not separate measure; but a part of the general military system, which the present government had resolved to adopt, and which the noble and learned lord could hardly have expected to see comprehended in one bill First, they had got rid of one measure which was universally acknowledged to be burthen some and unjust in itself; which had been unproductive, and, at the same time operated as a drawback on the ordinary recruiting. They then proceeded to introduce a limited endurance of service, with the double view of increasing the number and of introducing into the army a new order, superior in zeal and energy, as superior in knowledge. The volunteer force still existed; and now the present bill was brought in for the purpose of forming a force in addition to it, by which, in time, the whole country should be instructed in the use of arms. He informed the noble earl (West moreland), that it was the intention of the, present government to disperse 200,000 stand of arms among the people of this country; so far were they afraid of this that they even intended to instruct, then how to use them. Neither should they
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think it necessary to have them deposited in some castle or fortress; but should think, that in enabling every man to become habituated to the use of arms, and the people thus to become an armed people, while they in no wise endangered the peace of the country at home, they rendered it invulnerable against every foreign attack.
Lord Hawkesburyentered into an investigation of the different measures alluded to by the noble lord; and particularly of the great advantages of voluntary services, which, he was convinced, would be greatly affected by the present measure; a measure which, in his opinion, would be equally expensive, and by no means so efficient as the voluntary force, He should not, however, press the matter to a question.
The Earl of Rosslyn shewedthat the volunteer service could not at all be affected by the present measure; which was not a substitute for, but an addition to, the volunteer system. He took a view of the different immunities, such as exemption from ballot for the militia, army of reserve,&c., which had been formerly held out to them; and maintained that, instead of being degraded, as it had been termed by this bill, it also went to encourage the entering into the volunteer corps, by exempting all such from the provisions of the bill. He asked, too, if it could be contended, that the same number of volunteers would continue having nothing but the August establishment, while the contributions were discontinued ? He adverted to what had fallen from the learned lord (Eldon) as to the volunteers being the saviours of the constitution; and trusted it could not even be insinuated, that such an idea was at all well founded, in the present state of the country.
Lord Eldonin explanation, declared, that he had never either insinuated or. dreamt of such a thing. He had simply alluded to the volunteers at the time of their formation; and had attributed to them, he was convinced, correctly, that this country had escaped those destructive and desolating principles, by which the liberties of the rest of Europe had been overturned. —The question was then put, the house went into a committee, and the bill was reported.