Sitting of 21 July 1806

MINUTES.
On the motion of Mr. Creevy,new writs were ordered for the election of a member for Seaford, in the room of sir Richard Sullivan, deceased; for Buckingham, in the room of lord Proby, who had accepted the office of Steward of the Cil ern Hundreds; and for Enniskillen, in the room of Mr. King, who had accepted the Stewardship of the Hundred of Desborough.—Mr. Perceval adverted to a notice, which he had given some time since, of a motion on the subject of thanks to the managers of Impeachments. The vote of thanks before the judgment was given, in the case of lord Melville, struck him as extremely improper. He was still of the same opinion, and he wished by no means to be considered as having abandoned his determination to submit to the house a resolution for preventing the recurrence of such a practice. His only reason for not having already brought forward this resolution was, that he wished it to be unconnected with the consideration of any particular impeachment; and if he had brought it forward so soon after the impeachment of lord Melville, it would appear to be connected with that. He renewed his notice for the next session.—Mr. Sheridan said it would be recollected, that the notice he had on a former day given of a motion relative to the crown lands, with a view to the improvement of the capital, was conditional. On communicating with his majesty's ministers, he found that the noble lord at the he d of the treasury, and another noble lord now absent (lord H. Petty), had turned their attention to the object he had in view, and had a plan which was apparently well calculated to effect it He therefore begged to withdraw his notice, and to give way to persons by whom his wishes could be best accomplished.

BARRACK ABUSES.
Mr. Robsonrose pursuant to notice, to make a motion for papers on this subiect. Since the debate, said the hon. gent. which took place lately upon India affairs, could not bring down ministers to the house, it was in vain to expect their attendance upon the present occasion. Although his majesty's ministers, however, did not think proper to come to their places, he should think it no less his duty to speak plainly of them. He had upon all former occasions submitted plain and simple motions to the consideration of the house, which if they had chosen to agree to, they. would have been by this

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time in possession of the means of saving several hundreds of thousands of pounds of the public money. From the unaccountable conduct of the present ministers,his motions had hitherto been rejected, although he had been told by the secretary at war the other day, that if he had divided the house upon his third motion upon this subject, it would have been agreed to. Was this all the support which ministers thought it their duty to afford to the discovery and detection of abuses? He should still assert, that the motions which he had brought forward the other day were such as would have termed a key to discover all those abuses which he was convinced existed in the barrack department. The right hon. secretary at war had indeed placed him in a very unpleasant predicament on Friday last. He had previously been told that he ought to wait till the report of the Commissioners was presented. Although he was generally very punctual in his attendance in the house, yet it so happened that on Friday last it was 20 minutes past 4 when he entered, and on his way he met the clerk coming out with the report which had been presented and ordered to be printed. He had followed him up stairs in order to inspect it, but returned in consequence of learning that the secretary at war intended to move for and present some papers. Finding a deliberate perusal of the report absolutely necessary for his purpose, he applied to the house to have the printing postponed to some future period; this, however, could not be complied with, so that he was now placed in such a situation that he could not be able to lay that plan upon the table which he originally wished, and which he had pledged himself to do. He should still however assert, that with the produce arising from a saving upon the canteens and manure, he would engage to pay the whole expence of all the temporary barracks in England. He should now call upon the chancellor of the exchequer and the secretary at war to assign to him some reason why they did not consent to all his former motions, and support him to their utmost in his endeavours to provoke inquiry. He should warn these gentlemen, that if in the space of 6 months hence matters remained as they now were, a great share of responsibility would fall upon them for their unpardonable neglect. The secretary at war had, upon the day alluded to, presented some papers, stating the rents of canteens,&c. but these did not answer his (Mr. Robson's) purpose. He therein found only a
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bare statement of the sum received by the late Barrack Master General, but he neither found the particulars of expenditure, the period when payments were made, nor the time comprehended in the whole of such statement. He considered it therefore, as no account at all. Was it merely for the purpose of appearing consistent in their votes, that the house had granted such a document? The right hon. secretary must surely perceive that he had been only moving for a thing in an imperfect state, which had been formerly moved for in a perfect one. In short, this paper by no means came near what he wished the house to be possessed of. What he wanted was a distinct and accurate statement of the canteens employed, and the produce of manure in each county. It should be a monthly statement, or such as every Barrack Master was bound to send weekly. For this purpose he begged leave to renew the motion he had formerly submitted to the consideration of the house upon this subject, which had been formerly rejected.—After some little debate as to the point of order, the motion Was made in nearly the following terms. "That there be laid before this house, an account of money received, on the part of government, for dung, ashes, dust, straw, Sweepings, or other things being articles of manure; the name or names of the persons to whom sold; the sum or sums received; the name or names of the persons through whose hands the said sums have been received, on the part of the public; the time when such sale ceased; if so, stating the cause of cessation; the number of non-commissioned officers and men, and the number of horses generally quartered or lodged at each station respectively," &c.
The Secretary at Warsaid, he did not object to the motion, nor had he objected to any motion tile hon. gent. had brought forward. At the same time, he thought it necessary to say, that the making out these accounts would be attended with great inconvenience, and a very heavy expence; for many additional clerks must be employed for the purpose; and it was for the house to consider whether they would authorise such an expence, after the hon. gent. had talked of throwing up the business, and it was not certain whether he was sincere in his intention to proceed with the inquiry. If his noble friend near him (lord H. Petty) had not taken the course had done, he should himself have objected to the motions altogether, but now he certainly should not.
Mr. Robsonsaid, he was aware that granting motions for papers was attended with some expence, but all he had hitherto moved for, were comprised in two sheets and a half, and therefore he could not be much reproached on that head at present. He assured the house, and the right hon. secretary, he was sincere in his intention to proceed into the inquiry, and would be ready to begin to-morrow, for the more he looked into it, the more he saw it was an absolute refinement on peculation, and could not be stopped too speedily; and he wished only that he had one of those peculators before an honest jury. The report of the military board he looked upon as a hash, seasoned up with the account of the one per cent. charged by General Delancey, by way of shewing they had noticed something at the outset; but they had begun at the wrong end. Instead of going back 13 years, so far as the year 1793, they should have begun with the present abuses. It they had begun right, a report would now have been before the house, by which half a million might have been saved; and he was determined, the system of plunder which had been so long carried on, should not continue. Every hour that was lost, was an injustice, and an injury to the public. He warned the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whom he now saw in his place, against neglecting to go into an immediate and bon fide inquiry, observing, that if he did so, he would have to answer to him in the next session for loss of half a million of the public money. He had heard much of the talents of this broad bottomed administration. He wished to God he could persuade them to give up some of their enormous pensions and sinecure places, and thus bring their talents of gold and their talents of silver into the service of the public. Let them do this, and then he would allow them to talk of their sincerity. If ministers neglected enquiry, he would tell them, they had not a leg to stand on. They might, perhaps, go on for a year or two, but it was impossible they should last longer. If economy was not the order of the day, how long did ministers think that the country could go on? Would not extravagance force the people to accept an insecure peace, which they did not wish for at present? What the public wanted was economy, and a strict inquiry into the public expenditure; and covered as they were with taxes, how was it possible for them to have an opinion of that administration that did not follow up inquiry?
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Admiral Markham had declared that two thirds of the money granted by parliament would pay all the expences of the navy, and yet as much as ever was taken this year. This was absolutely a laughing at the people. How long, he would ask, were these things to last?
Mr. Robsonnext moved: "That there be laid before the house, a return of the sales which have taken place at the several, temporary barracks or buildings, rented or hired by government, and used as barracks, or as barrack storehouses, in the whole of G. Britain. That the said return do embrace all such sales of the description aforesaid, that have been made between the 1st of Jan. 1793, and the 24th June, 1806; and that it be exhibited in nine columns in the order, and with the titles following. Viz—. The name of the parish (or station) and the county where each sale respectively was made; the said names of the parishes (or stations) following each other in due alphabetical order. 2. The date of the sale. 3. The name of the auctioneer, or person by whom the sale was made, and if the sale was a private one, stating that circumstance. 4. The names of the purchasers, if less than six in number. 5. A general description of the things sold. 6. The name of the barrack master, or other person, under whose immediate direction and superintendance the sale took place. 7. The gross amount of the sale, as credited to government. 8. The total amount of all sums expended by government in fitting up each building respectively. 9. The number of men or horses usually quartered in each building respectively."
Mr. Secretary Windhamobserved, that ministers were placed in a disagreeable situation by the hon. gent.'s motions, since he seemed to consider persons who might on any account object to them as wishing to protect abuses and peculations. But it must be from the most gratuitous love of abuse, if ministers could object to the discovery of abuses which took place under their predecessors. In this observation, however, he could not include himself, for the present motion had some reference to him in an antecedent state. Here he. could not but remark the inconsistency of the hon. gent. He had complained that all the work of the commissioners of enquiry had beep retrospective, and had considered that as a most absurd way of proceeding,. while he wanted to provide against present

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and future abuses. He had also dwelt on the expence of the Barrack Department; and yet, notwithstanding all this, he now proposed to go into a detail of all that had happened for the last 13 years, which must necessarily be attended with great expence, and would require the employment of additional clerks. Now, the proper question was, would the motion, if agreed to, produce any thing adequate to the expence and inconvenience it would occasion? All the items of an auctioneer's paper, pots, pans, kettles, trenchers, and wooden bowls, Were to be made up and laid before. the house, and many other things of which it was probable no record or vestige now remained. The hon. gent. brought forth his motions as a sort of nostrum or recipe, which was to cure existing abuses all at once: and, indeed, if he could produce some little scheme of accounts of that kind, he would do great service to the country. He had taken a very wide compass, and laid a broad basis; but his objections to his motions arose from their probable inefficiency, and he would not be terrified from opposing the present, by the reproach of a wish to screen peculators. But he believed it would be a warning to the house to be cautious in assenting, not to,judicious and necessary motions, hut to such as. would be tedious, troublesome, and expensive, without producing any adequate advantage.
Mr. T. Jonessaid, he had no wish to give any opposition or annoyance to his majesty's ministers. He had every wish to respect their talents, to give them credit for the best intentions, and to be convinced it was by no means their wish knowingly to countenance or to screen wanton extravagance or peculation : but really and truly, the system of peculation of late years, in the department alluded to by his hon. friend (Mr. Robson) was so glaring, so horrid, and abominable, that he must say his hon. friend was justified in pressing his motion, with a view to establish some effectual and permanent check upon this glaring system of flagitious peculation. His majesty's present ministers had succeeded to power with the wishes and the warm approbation of the people, and certainly had shewn every disposition to follow up enquiry into public abuses, and to render the public force formidable for the defence of the country against a ferocious enemy: but he could assure those ministers, with every deference for their talents, that, without economy in the expenditure of the public money, with-
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out the most rigorous vigilance in the disbursement of every pound for the public service, it would be in vain that they possessed. talents; it would be in vain that they rendered formidable their armies or their fleets, with a view to our permanent safety. Economy in public, and in private life, under the peculiar circumstances to which this country was now reduced, he considered as the cardinal virtue upon which turned all our hopes of ultimately surmounting the dangers and embarrasments in which we were involved: it was to our want of this, that our ferocious enemy looked with eager hopes of his ultimate success in subduing us, more than to any opinion of our want of a formidable force, and a military spirit of resistance. But, from the nature of some expenditures of late, it would seem as if his majesty's ministers had believed that a guinea was really worth more than twenty-one shillings: however, he could assure them, nothing but the most strict economy and vigilance of the public expenditure would do. He thought it odd, that when a proposition was made with a view to investigate defalcations and peculations in another department, which was a perfect mine of peculation, it should be resisted on the ground that it would cause an extra expence in clerks, pens, ink, and paper. The objection to the expence of these accounts, he thought came with a bad grace from the ministers so soon after the Auditors bill which entailed great expences on the public, for little more than nominal appointments. He wished to see the system of economy general. It was equally advantageous in public as in private concerns. Give us, said he, but economy, and a fig for Buonaparte!
Sir William Elford,with every respect for the hon. member, observed, that if he had been the first to discover the peculation of which he now complained, and had come down to the house and founded upon his discovery a motion of enquiry, undoubtedly he would have deserved much popularity for his exertion. But, as this was not the case, as the house had already taken up the subject under the general head of military expenditures, and as the commissioners appointed by the house had been actually for a year past occupied in the investigation, the hon. gent. in every endeavour to add to his own popularity on this head, sought to detract from the merit of the commissioners, and of the house, by whom they were instituted, as well as very

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considerably and unnecessarily to increase that expenditure of public money for which he professed so much of vigilant concern.
Mr. Robsoncontended, that the same abuses were still going on in the same manner as before, and as it seemed the commissioners could not conclude their inquiries for three or four years, he would ask, was he, as a member of parliament, to sit still all that time, and not attempt to check them? There should be in the Barrack Office, a regular account of the sale of all the articles, the names of the items and the amount of what they respectively sold for; and it did not appear that commissioners had called for it. There was a clause in the act, that the. commissioners need not, unless they saw reason for it, inquire into any former abuses which did not still subsist, and thus the abuses escaped under this masking, clause. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) had talked to him of nostrums; all the nostrums he wanted, was to probe peculation to the quick, and to apply to it such a remedy as should cure it for the future. All he wished for was inquiry; but he found by the papers already presented, that the repetition of dittos, in. many places were substituted for descriptions, as if there was a scarcity of pens, ink, and paper, in the office.
Lord H. Pettysaid, he had hitherto been extremely unwilling to resist any of the motions made by the hon. gent. for the papers he required on this subject, or to withhold any information which the hon, gent. or the house think necessary; but really the document for which he now moved was of a nature so very complicated and impracticable, on a range of 13 years, as well as utterly useless towards the professed and leading object of the hon. gent. that he was inclined to oppose this motion, seeing it to be of no practical use. If the hon. gent. had any objection to the mode of inquiry by commissioners, already adopted by the house, and before whom the subject of Barracks was laid, as well as all other branches of the military expenditure, he ought to have come down to the house, and moved for a repeal of the bill under which those commissioners were appointed, in order to substitute any other plan of inquiry he should think more eligible. For his own part, he should in future e more averse to the granting of such general and expensive motions.
Mr. T. Jonessaid, that he had had the honour of seconding the motion of his hon.
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friend (Mr. Robson) relative to the 19l. 10s: bill unpaid by government. That motion, which was then refused by ministers, had done great good: it had given rise to the commission of naval enquiry, and this motion which he now had the honour of seconding, and which too was by ministers, he would venture to say, would also be attended with great benefit to the public.—The question was then put and the motion agreed to.

MILITIA OFFICERS' BILL.
On the third reading of the Militia Officer's Pay bill,
The Earl of Radnorprotested against it as a bill that offered an insult and injury to the Militia, whilst it was at the same time a breach of faith towards that valuable body of men, it having been clearly declared by parliament that the pay of the Militia officers should be equal to that of the officers of the line. He lamented that every party who came into power seemed inclined to give a blow to the Militia. The engagements that had been entered into with the Militia had now nearly all been broken; the men had been taken out of the regiments to serve in the line; officers had been appointed without the requisite landed qualifications; now the pay of the officers was to be rendered less than that of the line, and he supposed their rank would next be affected. He wished to speak against this measure in the strongest terms which his liberty of speech in parliament would allow; and viewing it in the light he did, he felt it his duty to move, that the bill be read a second time this day three months.
The Earl of Westmorelandalso thought the bill a breach of faith towards the Militia, and was at a loss to conceive on what grounds it could be supported. On a former occasion, when discussing one of the military measures of his majesty's ministers, it had been said, do not take a measure singly, but look at the whole plan, and with this license he would take the liberty of adverting to a bill for regulating the rank of volunteer officers, which either through his mistake, or the mistake of others, had passed through the house without his having an opportunity of making any remark on it;— a bill which he conceived calculated to give offence to the volunteers, without any benefit being likely to be derived from it.
Lord Grenvilledeclared himself a warm friend to the Militia, which he considered a very valuable part of our military force, not only as affording a force for the defence of the country in the hour of danger, but also as giving an opportunity to gentle-

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men of landed property, not chusing to enter into the regular military profession, of evincing their zeal and spirit, and of obtaining that degree of military knowledge which would render them essentially useful in a crisis of public danger. There was not the slightest intention on the part of his majesty's ministers to give a blow or offer any insult to the militia; nor could he conceive how this bill could be so construed. He denied that there was any breach of faith: all that had formerly been declared by parliament was, that the officers of the militia should receive the same pay as the officers of the line, that is to say, the pay which the latter then received; but it never could be contended, that from thence a principle was to arise, that the pay of the officers of the line was never to be augmented without, at the same time, augmenting, to an equal amount, the pay of the officers of the militia. It should be recollected that the officers of the line made the military profession the business of their lives, and were liable to many duties of service to which militia officers were not; the latter besides, might pursue other avocations, at the same time continuing the exercise of their duties as military officers. He could not, therefore, conceive in what way the bill could operate as a hardship upon the latter.
Lord Eldonobjected that the bill was inconsistent with itself, inasmuch as it merely professed in its title to be a bill for regulating the pay of militia officers in England and Scotland, whilst in the body of the bill there were enactments applying to the yeomanry and volunteers of Ireland.
The Earl of Moiraobserved, that a trifling amendment would obviate the inconsistency of Which the noble and learned lord, complained. He professed himself a warm friend to the militia, and, coinciding completely with the arguments urged by his noble friend (lord Grenville), he could not conceive in what way the bill could be considered as offering any insult to that valuable part of our military force. He thought the lamentation of the noble earl (Westmorland), that he had missed an opportunity of debating the bill for regulating the rank of volunteer officers, was needless, as every part of the plans of ministers as embodied in the different measures brought up to that house had been most amply discussed by noble lords on the other side, who had scarcely omitted any opportunity of attacking them. With respect to that
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bill, however, he would observe, that not only no offence was intended to the volunteers, but he was convinced that no offence could be taken by the volunteer officers, as they must feel that, from want of experience in actual service, they were not competent to take the command of field officers of the line and of large bodies of troops in the event of their being actually called out for the defence of the country.
Earl Fitzwilliamlikewise defended the bill, on grounds similar to those urged by lord Grenville and the earl of Moira.
The Earl of Hardwickeobjected to the bill, on the ground of the increase of pay not being extended to captains in militia, many of whom, he said, from having been appointed without the qualification previously required, stood as much in need of an increase as any of the others to whom it had been extended.
Earl Spencerthought, if the not extending the increase to captains had the effect of bringing back the militia in that respect, to its former principle, that of only having captains possessed of the landed qualification before required, it would produce a good effect. He defended the bill on the grounds before urged, and as to the rank of volunteer officers, he, as a volunteer field officer himself, considered that bill as a boon, and he had no doubt it would be generally considered by volunteer officers as a favour, as, with all that zeal and spirit which they would doubtless evince in the hour of danger, they could not, from want of experience, feel themselves adequate to the command of large bodies of troops.
The Duke of Rutlandexpressed his entire disapprobation of the bill, which he conceived to be subversive of the constitution of the militia.
The Lord Chancellorcontended that the former declaration of the legislature, that the pay of the militia officers should. be the same as that of the line, could only apply to the then pay of the regular army, and not to any future augmentation. Those noble lords who conceived that this augmentation ought to be extended equally to the militia, might use that as an argument against the bill, but it never could be maintained that the not extending to that force an increase of pay, granted under special circumstances to the regular army, was subversive of the constitution of the militia.
Earl Camdenopposed the. bill. He thought the measures brought forward by ministers were not exactly in unison with

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their professions of regard for the militia and volunteers.—The house then divided on the question, that the word "How".stand part of the motion. For reading the bill a third time. Contents 13; Not contents 8.—Majority 5. On our readmission, we found the Earl of Westmoreland on his legs, speaking on the question for reading the same Bill a third time. His lordship expressed his disapprobation generally of the measures which had been brought forward Joy ministers, and considered his own honour and character, as well as that of those with whom he recently acted, involved in his opposition to them.—The bill was then read a third time and passed.

PUBLIC HARBOURS BILL.
On the question for going into a committee on the Public Harbours bill.
The Earl of Limerickcomplained that a bill of this importance had been brought forward at so late a period of the session. It. appeared to him likely to be mischievous in its operation, as it tended to prevent persons having property on the banks of navigable rivers, as far as the tide flowed, from making the least improvement on their estates without giving notice to the secretary of the Admiralty. The penalty for not giving this notice was 200l. and many persons might thus be entrapped without being at all aware of the nature of the law. He thought it would in many cases be useless as to the interests of the pubiic, and' instanced the river Shannon, in Ireland, where the tide flowed a mile higher than vessels of any burden could come up, yet this bill would equally operate in that part of the river where it could not be of the least use.
Lord Grenvillesaid the bill had been brought forward as soon as the grievance to which it applied was known; and it was a measure which he contended was highly necessary in order to preserve our public harbours and navigable rivers from obstructions. It was merely required of the Person making any embankment or other work in the situations mentioned, to send notice to the secretary of the Admiralty, which could be but a very trivial hardship. Many other rivers might be in the situation of the Shannon, where the tide flowed higher than vessels of any burden could navigate, but it was, notwithstanding, important to prevent obstructions in those parts of such rivers, in order to prevent the navigable parts of those rivers from being ultimately injured.—The bill then passed through the committee, and was reported.