Sitting of 14 July 1806

MINUTES.
The members appointed to manage the conference with the lords, relative to the application for the examination of lord Teignmouth, consisting of all those in the house at the time, proceeded to the conference. On their return, Mr. Bankes informed the house, that the members appointed to manage the conference on the part of the commons had attended, and had met lord Westmeath on the part of the lords, to whom they had imparted the answer of the house to the lords' message, and had left with him a copy of it.

RESOLUTIONS RELATING TO PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.
Mr. Huskissonrose, pursuant to the notice he had given on a former day, to bring forward his promised resolutions, for the purpose of establishing a plan for simplifying and rendering more definite the annual accounts laid before parliament, of the receipts and issues of the treasury for public purposes within the year. After expatiating upon the want of regularity, clear-
1122
ness, and precision, in the accounts annually laid before the house, in consequence of each not being brought up to one general date, the object of his proposition was, that the accounts should all be made out up to the 5th of January in each succeeding year, not of the receipts and issues for the year, but within the year, and that all surplus, if any then remaining in the treasury, should be carried to the account of the next year; and that all floating debts due for the year, and not then brought forward, should be transferred in like manner to the next years account: while the lords of the treasury should be enabled to issue out of the next years revenue, payment for any bills so furnished after the 5th of January, for purposes ordered for the preceding year. There was also another proposition which he had to submit to the house, which would not only tend still further to simplify the public accounts, but to effect a considerable saving to the public annually, by enabling the lords of the treasury to pay off quarterly a certain portion of outstanding exchequer bills, and thereby saving to the public the interest that must grow thereon by longer outstanding, as is usual, while considerable balances were remaining in the treasury. This proposition was to perpetuate the taxes on malt, land, sugar, and pensions, which at present were voted annually, and estimated each year to produce about 2,750,000 l.; the produce of these, instead of standing on a distinct account, he proposed should be carried to the consolidated fund; and in lieu thereof, he should propose, that three millions a year should be granted out of the consolidated fund to his majesty, for the purposes to which those taxes were appropriated. He apologised to the house for bringing forward these propositions himself, as wanting that weight and consideration which could give them authority; but he had previously submitted them to the noble lord opposite to him (the chancellor of the exchequer), and had the good fortune to meet his approbation; besides, he thought it the duty of every member of that house to suggest to his majesty's ministers, and to parliament, every project which he conceived to be for the public advantage, and of utility to the state. The hon. gent. then moved—1."That an account of the total receipt at the exchequer, whether from ordinary or extraordinary resources, and of the total issues therefrom, be made up to, and closed on, the 5th Jan. in

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each year, to commence from the 5th Jan. 1808; and that such account be laid before this house within thirty days after the opening of any session of parliament which may take place subsequent to the said 5th day of January, 1808, or of any succeeding year, and within thirty days after such 5th day of January, in case the session should be opened prior to that day.
Lord Henry Pettyacknowledged that the hon. gent. had submitted to him the several resolutions contained in his plan, previously to his proposing them to the house; and they certainly had his approbation, because he conceived that a plan having for its object to make the accounts as clear and as intelligible to the house, and to the country at large, as possible, was extremely desirable; for which, the mode proposed by the hon. gent. seemed to him well calculated; and he should be glad to avail himself of the hon. gent.'s suggestions for carrying it into effect. Seeing no manner of objection at present to the adoption of this resolution, it should certainly have his concurrence.—The resolution was then put and carried.
Mr. Huskissonthen moved—2. "That whatever sum shall remain in the receipt of the exchequer on the said 5th of Jan. 1808, being part of the grants for the service of the year 1807, and also the balances in the hands of the Treasurer of the navy, the paymaster of the forces, and the treasurer of the ordnance, being also part of the said grants, respectively, be considered as a surplus of the grants of the said year, applicable to the service of the year 1808, and so on for each succeeding year." 3. That it should, nevertheless, be in the power of the lords commissioners of the treasury, to direct all such balances, either remaining in the exchequer, or in the hands of the treasurers and paymaster aforesaid, to be used and applied, at any time subsequent to the said 5th of Jan. of the year 1808, or of any succeeding year, in continuance of the services for which they were originally granted, without any further vote of this house." 4. "That an account of all such balances,. as aforesaid, be laid before this house within 30 days after the opening of any session of parliament which may take place subsequent to the 5th of Jan. 1808, or of any succeeding year, and within 30 days after such 5th day of Jan. in case the session should be opened prior to that clay." 5. "That the amount of all such balances, stated in the said account,
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be carried to the credit, and taken in diminution, of ways and means which may be granted for the service of the year in which such account may be laid.—On moving, That it would be a considerable saving to the public, that the annual duty upon malt and sugar should be rendered permanent, and carried to the annual produce of the consolidated fund, if not otherwise appropriated,
Mr. Bakerrose to oppose the proposition, which he considered as a striking innovation, introduced at the close of a session of parliament, without any formality or mature consideration that should have accompanied proposal, which, if he understood the hon. gent. must go to trench very materially upon a constitutional privilege of the house of commons, and materially abridge that wholesome check which it held upon the crown, namely, the privilege of voting or withholding the supplies annually. We had been, he said, heretofore frightened at the apprehensions of a standing army; but now we had got that standing army. That it might be rendered necessary by the circumstances of the times, he would not now dispute. But here was a proposal in which the house was called upon, at a moments warning, to vote those taxes in perpetuity, which hitherto had been voted only annually. To such a proposition he should decidedly say Nay, unless it was much more fully and satisfactorily explained to him.
Lord H. Pettythought that as the motion had been objected to, the best method would be to give more time; and he suggested the propriety of postponing the consideration.
Mr. Roseadmitted, that the hon. gent. had a right to object to it if he thought proper; but he contended, that it was no dangerous innovation, as it only regulated the mode of the accounts, without adding to their amount.
Mr. Yorkeprofessed that he did not well understand these resolutions. He suggested whether it would not be right to move the previous question on them, which would leave them on the journals, to be taken into consideration at a more suitable time? He had a distrust of any measure which would take away the checks now in the hands of that house, of making it necessary to assemble parliament, after a reasonable interval, which necessity would not exist, if the taxes were made permanent.
Mr. Bastardwas also a friend to the house keeping in its own hands all its present checks on the power of the crown. Amongst these was that of voting the taxes annually. He did not apprehend any approaching difference between the crown and the parliament; but as such differences had arisen before, they might possibly arise again; for which reason that house should not part with such checks as remained in its hands at present.
Mr. Huskissonsaid, it would give the crown no power whatever over the public purse, as the supplies must be voted from year to year.
Mr. Percevalobserved, that all the resolutions were in his opinion unexceptionable, but the present. He wished the house to retain its power over the means by which the money was to flow into the exchequer, as well as over the subsequent appropriation of it. To simplify the making up of the public accounts was undoubtedly a desirable object, but it was a very inferior one when compared with the abandonment of any of the privileges of parliament.
Mr. Huskissonfinding the sense of the house was against him, proposed to withdraw the resolution. He then moved—6. That all demands outstanding, under any of the following heads of service, viz. Treasury, Navy, Army, Ordnance, and Barracks,' and which shall remain unsatisfied on the 5th of Jan. aforesaid, be carried to the charge of the ensuing year; but inasmuch as the amount of these demands may be considered as floating debts from year to year, that provision should be made, in the supply of each year, for the discharge of such part of them only, as, upon the estimates to be laid before the house for these several services, may be stated to be an excess of such floating debt at the commencement, over and above the amount at which it may probably remain at the close of such year; and that the amount of such probable excess (if any) be regularly stated in, and form a part of, the several estimates aforesaid." 7. "That an account of all such floating debts be laid annually before this house, in the same manner, and at the same time, as the account required by the 4th of these resolutions." 8. "That the annual surplus, or growing produce of the consolidated fund of Great Britain (forming part of the ordinary annual revenue), and now granted for one year, terminating on the 5th of April next, in case it should be
1126
thought fit, at the expiration of that period, to continue the grant of the same, be further granted from the said 5th of April, 1807, to the 5th of Jan. 1808, and from thenceforth, from year to year, so that the grant of each successive year should terminate on the 5th of Jan. of the year ensuing." 9. "That, in the account annually laid before parliament, intituled,—An account of the disposition of grants for Great Britain,' the amount of each separate vote or grant of this house, as enumerated in the appropriation act, the sum paid upon each such vote, and the sum (if any) remaining to be issued from the exchequer, be specified separately and distinctly; and that this account be made up to, and closed on, the 5th of Jan. in each year, and not carried on to any later period."
Mr. Paullavailed himself of this opportunity to observe, that it was impossible to follow the resolutions as they were read; he suggested the propriety of printing them before they were agreed to, more especially as there was no urgent necessity for their being immediately agreed to by the house.
The Speakerreminded the hon. gent. that by the constant practice of the house, every resolution was printed. No resolution had the force of law. It was merely a recorded opinion, which the house might subsequently change.
Mr. Bakerhoped the hon. gent. did not mean to originate any bills on these resolutions, during the present session.
Mr. Huskissonreplying that he did not, the resolutions were agreed to.

FINANCIAL PROPOSITIONS.
Mr. Johnstonefinding that the resolutions of the hon. gent. did not go so far as he had expected, said, he would submit to the house certain Financial Propositions relative to the national debt, &c. similar to those which he had been in the habit of submitting for the last two years. He did this without notice, because it was his intention, immediately after the reading of the first resolution, to move that the debate on it should be adjourned to a future day. The first resolution was then read, and the debate was adjourned to Friday. The following is a copy of the said Propositions:

That the total amount of the Public Funded Debt of Great Britain was, on the 1st Feb. 1803, 567,008,978 l..;—of which 67,255,915 l. had been purchased by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, and 19,180,587 l.. had been transferred to them on account of land tax

1127
redeemed; leaving a funded debt unredeemed of 480,572,476 l.;—And, that the amount of annuities charged on Great Britain (after deducting what have fallen in) was, on the 1st Feb. in short annuities and for lives 539,979 l: and in long annuities 1,015,410 l.

That the total amount of Public Funded Debt created in G. Britain for account of Ireland was, on the 1st Feb. 1803, 22,348,000 l.;—of which there had been purchased by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt 1,123,415 l.; leaving a funded debt unredeemed of 21,224,585 l., together with long annuities to the amount of 9,791 l.

That the total amount of Public Funded Debt created in G. Britain for account of the emperor of Germany was, on the 1st Feb. 1803, 7,502,633 l.;—of which 375,137 l. had been purchased by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt; leaving a funded debt unredeemed of 7,127,496 l. together with annuities to the amount of 230,000 l. which will expire in 1819.

That the amount of the Outstanding Demands unprovided for on the 5th Jan. 1803, exclusive of Unfunded Debt, and of the anticipation of certain duties annually voted, was 592,630 l.: That the deficiency of Ways and Means for the year 1802 was 171,431 l.:—making the amount of demands unprovided for on the 5th Jan. 1803, 764,061 l.

That the unfunded debt, in exchequer bills unprovided for, or charged upon funds which proved insufficient, was, on the 5th Jan. 1803, 9,827,400 l., including 3,000,000 l. in the bank, which bear no interest, in consideration of the renewal of the charter.—That the Unfunded Debt in navy bills was, on the 5th Jan. 1803, 3,105,648 l.

That the total amount of the Public Funded Debt of G. Britain was, on the 1st of Feb. 1806, 640,752,103 l.;—of which 101,145,802 l. had been purchased by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, and 22,325,740 l. had been transferred to them on account of land tax redeemed, leaving a funded debt unredeemed of 517,280,561 l. And that the amount of annuities charged on G. Britain (after deducting what have fallen in) was, on the 1st of Feb. in short annuities and for lives 485,167 l., and in long annuities 1,047,494 l. And that a farther debt amounting to 29,880,000 l. capital stock, has been created
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by the sums borrowed in the present session of parliament, out of which 979,256 l. 5 per cent. annuities, created in 1797, have been paid off.

That the total amount of the Public Funded Debt, created in G. Britain for account of Ireland, was, on the 1st Feb. 1806, 38,398,000 l.; of which there had been purchased by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, 2,913,948 l., leaving a funded debt of 35,484,052 l., together with long annuities to the amount of 91,208 l. And that a further debt, amounting to 3,320,000 l. capital stock, has been created by sums borrowed in the present session in G. Britain On account of Ireland.

That the total amount of Public Funded Debt created in G. Britain for account of the emperor of Germany, was, on the 1st Feb. 1806, 7,502,633 l.;—of which 642,249 l. had been purchased by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, leaving a funded debt of 6,860,384 l., together with annuities to the amount of 230,000 l., which will expire in 1819.

That the amount of Outstanding Demands unprovided for on the 5th Jan. 1806, exclusive of unfunded debt, and of the anticipation of certain duties annually voted, was 1,923,890 l.: That the deficiency of Ways and Means for the year 1804, was 1,707,589 l.; making the amount of demands unprovided for on the 5th Jan. 1806, 3,631,479 l.;—the whole of which has been paid off or provided for in the present session.

That on the 5th Jan. 1806, there were 341,000 l. in exchequer bills charged upon the aids of 1805, to the discharge of which the aids of 1805 were insufficient; 12,000,000 l. charged on the aids of 1806; and 3,000,000 l. payable in 1806, which are with the bank, and bore no interest in consideration of the renewal of the charter; making a total of exchequer bills unprovided for, of 15,341,000 l.;—of which suns 341,000 l. has been paid off in the present session. That the Unfunded Debt in navy bills was, on the 5th of January, 1806, 5,911,588 l.

That the variations in the state of the Public Debt between 5th Jan. 1803, and 5th Jan. 1807, being 4 years of war, may be estimated as follow:

The Public Funded Debt of G. Britain unredeemed, which on the 1st of February, 1803, was 480,572,476 l. will amount to

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533,584,305 l. after deducting 12,600,000 l.. for the operation of the sinking fund and the redemption of laud tax during the current year, being an increase of capital stock of

£ 53,011,829

The Public Funded Debt created in G. Britain for account of Ireland unredeemed, which on the 1st Feb.1803, was 21,224,585 l., will amount to 37,990,252 l., after deducting 813,800 l. for the operation of the sinking fund dating the current year; being an increase of capital stock of

16,765,667

The Long Annuities of G. Britain which on the 1st Feb. 1803, were 1,015,410 l., will amount to 1,047,494 l.; being an increase of annual charge of

32,048

The Long Annuities created in G. Britain for account of Ireland, which on the 1st Feb. 1803, were 9,791 l., will amount to 91,207 l.; being an increase of annual charge of

81,416

The Unfunded Debt in exchequer bills, which on the 1st of Feb. 1803, was 9,827,400 l. will amount to 15,000,000 l.; being an increase of

5,172,600

The Unfunded Debt in navy bills, which on the 1st of Feb. 1803, was 3,105,648 l., will amount to 6,511,588 l.; being an increase of

3,405,940

The Funded Debt created in G. Britain fur account of the emperor of Germany unredeemed, which on the 1st of Feb, 1803, was 7,127,496 l., will be reduced to 6,770,384 l., after deducting 90,000 l.. for the operation of the sinking fund during the current year; being a diminution of capital stock of

357,112

The Short Annuities of G. Britain, which on the 1st Feb. 1803, were 539,979 l., will be reduced to 477,391 l.; being a diminution of annual charge of

62,588

The sum applicable to the redemption of debt, which on the 1st Feb. 1803 was, for the debt of G. Britain, 5,834,986 l.; for debt created in G. Britain for account of Ireland, 258,434 l. for debt created in G. Britain for account of the emperor of

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Germany, 47,947 l.; making a total of 6,141,367 l.;—will amount to 8,273,049 l. for the debt of G. Britain; 537,151 l. for the debt created in G. Britain for account of Ireland; 58,660 l. for the debt created in G. Britain for account of the emperor of Germany; making a total of 8,868,860 l.; being an increase of

2,727,493

That the annual charge on account of the Public Funded Debt of G. Britain, after deducting the charges of management on loans redeemed by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, and the interest and charges of management on stock transferred for the redemption of the land tax, was on the 1st of February, 1803, 23,510,967 l., and on the 1st of Feb. 1806, 26,330,988 l.:—and that a further charge has been incurred on account of the sum borrowed in the present session, amounting to 1,136,000 l.

That the sum annually applicable to the reduction of the national debt of G. Britain, in pursuance of the several acts relating thereto, was, for the year 1803, 6,311,626 l.; being about 1–77th part of the unredeemed debt existing in 1803; and may, for the year 1806, be estimated at 8,273,049 l., being about 1–66th part of the unredeemed debt existing in 1806.

That the total net produce of the permanent taxes in the year ending Jan. 5, 1803, amounted to 28,246,681 l. including 715,323 l. paid for bounties on corn and rice imported in the year 1802; and, Jan. 5, 1806, the total net produce of permanent taxes amounted to 31,795,110 l.

That the net produce of the war taxes was, in the year ending 5th April, 1804;

£.

Customs and Excise

3,377,442

Property Tax

363,877

3,741,319

5th April, 1805, Customs and Excise

7,868,078

Property Tax

3,919,108

11,781,186

5th April, 1806, Customs and Excise

8,496,550

Property Tax

4,481,958

12,978,508

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That the official value of all imports into G. Britain, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1803, was 31,442,318 l.; and on an average of 6 years, ending the 5th Jan. 1803, was 28,419,626 l.

That the official value of all imports into G. Britain, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, supposing the imports from the East Indies (of which no account has yet been made up) to be the same as in the preceding year, was 29,488,072 l. and on an average of 6 years, ending the 5th of January, 1806, was 30,248,417 l.

That the official value of British manufactures, exported from G. Britain in the year ending the 5th of January, 1803, was 26,993,129 l.; and on an average of 6 years, ending the 5th of January, 1803, was 22,942,800 l.

That the official value of British manufactures exported from G. Britain in the year ending the 5th of January, 1806, was 25,003,308 l.; and on an average of 6 years, ending the 5th of January, 1806, was 24,698,058 l.
And that the real value of British manufactures, exported in the year ending the 5th of January, 1803, may be estimated at 48,500,683 l.: and in the year ending the 5th of January, 1806, at 41,068,942 l.

That the official value of foreign merchandize exported from G. Britain in the year ending 5th Jan. 1803, after deducting the excess arising from the valuation of coffee, was 14,418,837 l., and on an average of 6 years, ending 5th Jan. 1803, was 11,651,333 l.

That the official value of foreign merchandize exported from G. Britain in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, after deducting the excess arising from the valuation of coffee, was 9,950,508 l., and on an average of 6 years, ending 5th Jan. 1806, was 11,685,711 l.

That in the year ending 5th Jan. 1803, the number of British vessels entered inwards in G. Britain. was 13,622; their tonnage 1,793,333: and the number of men employed in them 108,669:—That the number of British vessels cleared outward was 13,012; their tonnage 1,625,966; and the number of men employed in them 102,427.

That in the year ending 5th Jan. 1803, the number of Foreign vessels entered inwards in G. Britain, was .3,733; their tonnage 480,241; and the number of men employed in them 27,737:—And that the number of Foreign vessels cleared outwards
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was 3,352; their tonnage 461,823; and the number of men employed in them 26,749.
That in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, the number of British ships entered inwards in G. Britain, was 11,409; their tonnage 1,494,075; and the number of men employed to navigate them 87,148:—That the number of British ships cleared outwards, was 11,603; their tonnage 1,494,968; and the number of men employed to navigate them 94,388.
That in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, the number of Foreign ships entered inwards in G. Britain, was 4,515; their tonnage 691,703; and the number of men employed in them 34,719;—That the number of Foreign ships cleared outwards, was 3,930; their tonnage 605,641; and the number of men employed in them 30,910.

That the number of British ships built and registered in the several ports of the British empire, in the year

Ending

Number

Tonnage

5 Jan. 1803,

was 1,281

137,508;

5 Jan. 1804,

1,402

135,349;

5 Jan. 1805,

991

95,979;

5 Jan. 1806,

966

89,975:

That the total sum to be raised in G. Britain within the year 1806, may be estimated as follows; viz.

Interest on public funded debt, charges of management, sinking fund, on the 5th Feb. 1806

£. 26,330,998

Interest, charges of management, &c. to be paid between the 5th Feb. 1806, and 5th Jan. 1807, on stock created by loans of the present session, to the amount of 29,880,000 l., after deducting interest on 5 per cent. 1797, paid off

943,890

Interest for loans to the emperor of Germany

497,528

Civil government of Scotland, pensions on revenue, militia and deserters warrants, bounties for promoting fisheries &c. estimated to be the same as the year ending 5th Jan. 1806

864,330

Charges of collecting and management of the revenue, estimated to be the same as the year ending 5th Jan. 1806

2,257,185

Proportion to be defrayed by G. Britain, of the civil list and other charges on the consoli

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dated fund of G. Britain, estimated to be the same as in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, 15–17ths of 1,827,184 l.

1,612,221

Supplies voted 1806, for G. Britain exclusively

5,030,806

Supplies voted in 1806 for G. Britain and Ireland

43,737,910

Deduct proportion to be defrayed by Ireland, 2–17 ths

5,145,636

38,592,274

43,623,080

Loan for the services of Ireland

2,000,000

Sums to be raised parochially for the maintenance of the poor, estimated to be the same as was required in the year, ending Easter 1803

5,246,506

Making in the whole the sum of

£.83,375,728

INCREASED PAY TO THE ARMY.
On the motion of lord H. Petty, the house resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, to which the Estimates respecting the Augmentation of Pay to the Army were referred.
The Secretary at Warthen rose to move pertain resolutions on this head, which, he trusted, would meet with the unanimous concurrence of the house. The low rate of pay of officers of infantry was a subject on which all must be agreed, that it was a wonder how they had been hitherto able to subsist; the patience with which they had waited for some addition to their pay was so exemplary, as to call for the approbation of the house and of the country. Even the increase, which was now proposed, was not, however, to be considered as an adequate reward for their services. This would require a much larger addition; but the present situation of the country, which called for the utmost economy, admitted that such increase only should take place as was required by absolute necessity; and he was convinced that it would be rather a subject of regret, than of satisfaction, that the proposed addition was so small. The increase, besides, was to be partial only, and not general, and was only to extend to those whose pay was inadequate to their situation. Notwithstanding the nobler claims which officers had to respect, arising from the nature of their professions, and their honourable services,
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yet all must know, that unless enabled to support a certain rank in society, they would not meet with general respect from the world; and thus the strongest discouragement would be held out to a profession which deserved so well of the country. His first resolution related to an increase of the pay of Officers of Infantry. The second proposed an addition to the pensions of Officers' Widows; and the third related to the increased pay of Serjeants, Corporals, and Privates, and the addition to the Chelsea pension. The grounds on which these last were adopted, had already been stated in the course of the discussions on the Mutiny bill. It was also proposed, that every field officer, commanding a regiment for the time, should have, during that period, an addition- to his pay of 3s. a day. This was founded on the obvious principle of his being enabled to support, at such a time, a certain higher degree of rank. It was, besides, thought proper, that some addition should be made to the pay of captains of a certain standing in the army. After ten years service, it was desirable that some increase of pay should take place. At present, such officers were entitled to the rank of brevet-major, and it was now proposed that they should receive an addition of 2s. per day. It was also proposed to grant an additional allowance to lieutenants of 7 years standing. During war, promotion advanced with so much rapidity, that there were seldom any instances of this sort; but in peace the case was different, and promotion became more slow; hence there was an evident propriety in making some addition. He then concluded with moving, That the sum of 161,700 l. 9s. 11 d. be granted for defraying the expense of these additional allowances for 183 days, from June 25 to Dec.24.
Sir A. Wellesleymade several observations on the pay of subalterns in the guards, which, he contended, was too small. He thought, also, that the lowest sum on which an ensign could subsist was 5s. 8d. per day.
Mr. Secretary Windhamthought the common opinion incorrect, which went to regulate the pay of officers exactly by subsistence, and to increase the pay of the lower orders, for the purpose of bringing them nearer the higher. All this seemed founded on a false assumption. The consequence of the present system was, that none could enter the army as officers who had not something else besides their mere pay. This was important, in a constitu-

1135
tional view, since it prevented them from becoming mercenaries, and gave them an interest in the country which they defended. Besides, there had been no difficulty, of late, in procuring officers, even when the pay was, confessedly, more inadequate than it was now proposed to be made. But it was also an object of importance, that subalterns should look forward to something higher, when their emoluments might be better proportioned to their expenditure. The ground of the whole system was, that the pay of officers, though not generally adequate, might yet be so, in particular instances, by means of extraordinary economy. Thus, in addition to those who entered the army with some property of their own, there might be others, impelled, perhaps, by a strong military inclination, though destitute of all other resources, who might go on, for a time, by dint of rigid economy, and struggle through the situation of subalterns, till they arrived at a higher rank. It was not thought necessary, that an easier species of admission should be granted to the lower ranks of society. Young men, also, who entered the army, generally received that assistance from their relations, which, at a more advanced period, was not to be expected, and were then better able to submit to privations of every kind, while the increase of their pay would advance, in proportion to their rise in their profession. He had no doubt, that a sufficient number of individuals would always be found possessed of magnanimity enough to bear all these inconveniencies, with the prospect of improving their situation in the army. These were the grounds on which the present scale of additions was calculated.
Lord De Blaquiereobserved, that having spent the best part of his life in the army, he had a fellow-feeling for all those who belonged to it, and could not but admire the wonderful addition of 1s. 1d. per day to field officers. This pittance would not enable them to pay the tax on property, which had been imposed during the present session, since every officer, who received 200 l. a year, would have to pay 20 l. out of it. He could have wished, that a still larger addition had been made to the pay of captains.
The Secretary at Warreplied, that, besides his increase of pay, every field-officer was to receive forage for one horse. In answer to what had fallen from an hon. general, with regard to officers of the
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guards, he observed, that as they had necessarily private fortunes of their own, they did not need the present addition, and he could speak, from his own knowledge, of that body, acquired from long service in it, that they would disdain the idea of serving for money alone. But the allowance of forage for one horse was, also, to be extended to them.
Lord Templewished to know, what addition was to be made to the pay of militia officers?
The Secretary at Warreplied, that the increase was only to extend to subalterns, on the principle that the field-officers must necessarily be men of fortune.
Mr. Windhamobserved, that if people could be found to fill the rank of officers, without pay, and actuated by the love of honour and distinction alone, it would be so much the better. But since this was not to be generally expected, they must be influenced by the mixed consideration of pay and honorary distinctions. Now the higher rank of officers in the guards was really one of these considerations, by which men were apt to be influenced.
Mr. Franciswished to know, whether it was meant to reimburse officers for the expence of the property tax? If this were not done, what the house gave with the one hand, it took away with the other.
Mr. Windhamreplied, that this was a subject winch could only have come before the house, with propriety, when that tax was discussed.
Lord Templeexpressed his regret, that his right hon. friend had not found it possible to extend the addition to captains in the militia. Of late, the difficulty of procuring them had been so great, that colonels of the militia had been empowered, by act of parliament, to take captains from half-pay of the line; and many subalterns had also been promoted to that rank, who had not the usual qualification in land; but as no alteration could be made in the present resolutions, there was only one remedy which could be applied, and that was by addressing the crown, that a similar addition might also be extended to them. Unless such an augmentation should take place, he pledged himself to submit a motion to the house on the subject, in the next session of parliament.
Mr. Windhamacknowledged, that there was a certain number of the militia officers, of the description that had been mentioned. But, besides, that they had not passed

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through any subordinate situations, it was improper that the interests of a few should prevent any general regulation with regard to that body.
Colonel Craufurdobserved, that this difficulty in procuring officers, with the legal qualification, arose from the late great extension of the militia; and when they were diminished, the difficulty would cease.—The resolution was then agreed to.—A 2d resolution, granting a sum of 3829 l. 19 s. 3d. for defraying the charge of increased pensions to officers' widows; and a 3d, granting a sum of 50,000 l. to cover the increased charge of the out-pensioners of Chelsea hospital, were also agreed to.

MILITIA OFFICERS' BILL.
Mr. Windhammoved the order of the day, for the house to go into a committee on the Militia Officers' Bill.
Sir W. Elfordstrongly objected to the present bill, on the ground of its making a distinction between the militia and the army, that was utterly inconsistent with those acts of parliament on which the militia was established. It was founded on the absurd principle, that men of fortune should accept no remuneration for those services which they might perform to the public. But supposing, for a moment, that a gentleman of large fortune, in the county of Norfolk for instance, should be appointed one of the secretaries of state, and that his colleagues should propose to him, that he should perform the duty, without any salary, he had no doubt that the proposition would appear to him very absurd. The militia, he contended, were placed on the same footing with the army, and the officers, without distinction, were equally entitled to the same additional pay that might be thought proper to bestow on those of the regulars. Was it not dangerous to innovate on what had been determined by the wisdom of our ancestors; and what, besides, had given general satisfaction? It was not so much the idea of pay that was to be considered, as the distinction which was now proposed to be made, which, he was convinced, would sow the seeds of discord in the militia.
Mr. Yorkecontended, that this bill might have been brought in, weeks and months ago, when there was a full attendance of members, and particularly of those who were connected with the militia service. On this ground alone, he would oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair. The right hon. gent. had already struck a blow at the
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volunteers, as much, perhaps, by the manner in which he had introduced his measures, as by the objects which they had in view, and now he made a similar attack on the militia service, while, from the thinness of the house, he thought himself exempted from the necessity of defending the measure. He then took a view of the arguments against the bill, and observed, that the invidious distinction now proposed to be established, would not save more than 5000 l. to the country. He complained of the right hon. gent.'s want of attention to the arguments which came from his side of the house; but, however, as an individual, he might be inclined to turn a deaf ear to what was said against his measures; yet, as one of the king's ministers, it was his duty to listen to the arguments and sentiments of independent gentlemen, when they thought it necessary for the public service to deliver them in that house.
Mr. Bastardcontended, that the present measure was a breach of the faith of parliament, which was pledged when the militia were first raised, that they should be on the same footing, in all respects, with the army. Their services were kept, while they were deprived of those privileges to which they were entitled. The distinction now proposed was odious, and for a pitiful saving, the whole militia service was to be disgusted.
Lord Templetotally differed from the hon. gent. He could not approve of that wandering manner, with which gentlemen on the other side seemed determined, whatever was the question, to inveigh against expressions said to have been used by his right hon. friend, respecting the volunteers. Those topics were now introduced into every debate. He would, however, leave it to the house, from what side the expressions now came, which had an obvious tendency to irritate the volunteers, and to disgust them? Who were the men who now avoided all conciliating language, and who appeared to wish to diminish both the numbers and the spirit of the volunteers? There was an objection, however, which he had, to the bill, and that was, that it gave to volunteer officers, when called into action, superior advantages to what the officers of the militia would have.
Mr. Bankessaid, that he should himself make no observation, but he would leave it to the house to judge on the manner and tone, with which the noble lord (Temple,)

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upon this, and indeed almost upon every occasion, reprehended those who differed with him in opinion. The house would discover on what ground his title to give such lectures rested, whether it was on his superior ability, or his great experience. It appeared to him, that it was too late in the session (when the extraordinary pressure of business was considered) to bring forward a measure which might disgust such a considerable body of men, who formed the constitutional army of the country. As to the economical saving, he considered, that it was a mere trifle, when compared to the serious mischief of disgusting the militia. He thought that a measure of such moment should not have been brought forward at such an advanced period of the session, when a regular and decent attendance of members could not be expected.
Mr. Secretary Windhamtook a review of the objections that had been urged by different gentlemen, from the temperate and argumentative speech of an hon. baronet, (sir W. Elford,) to the intemperate, unreasonable, uninteresting, and, as he conceived, most unargumentative speech of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke). He differed from the hon. baronet in the whole view of the case. Instead of considering it an innovation on any fundamental principle, it appeared to be one of those mere matters of discretionary regulation, which was always supposed to be completely open to the wisdom of parliament. It had been laid down as the general rule, that the militia were to have the same pay as the army. It should, however, be recollected, that this rule was not founded upon any constitutional principle, but merely as the words of the act of parliament. It was, therefore, to be considered, what were the words of the act, and what the meaning of it. The militia were called out according to law; but, as there before existed no law to determine what provision should be assigned for them, the act of the 42d of the king Stated, that that should be the same as was allowed to the army. The meaning of the act was clearly, that as it was necessary to assign them some provision, the legislature thought that what the army then received was not too much. In assigning them that, for their provision, the legislature never meant to tie up the hands of the sovereign, or prevent his increasing the pay of any other description of his force. If it was contended, that, on account of the words of this act, the king could not now
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make any provision for any other description of force which should not extend to the militia, the conclusion appeared to him a non sequitur. That his majesty might, from time to time, make alterations with respect to one part of his force, which should not extend to the other, was a thing agreeable to reason, and to the fact. In reason, it could not be contended, that regular troops, who were liable to be called, at a moment's notice, to serve their country abroad, in unwholesome climates, and exposed to danger, were not in a situation very different from the militia, who could not be ordered out of the country; if then, their situation was different, it would not be unreasonable, if there should be some difference in their allowances. In point of fact, too, a difference bad always existed. The officers of the regular army were entitled to half-pay, when militia officers were not. The field-officers of the militia, however, made no complaint. It was not so much a difference between regulars and militia, as between one part of the array and another. As to the right hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke) he must say, that, with whatever gravity of manners, or authority of tone, he chose to lecture hint upon what was his duty as a minister and a member of parliament, the whole weight and importance of his lectures depended upon the strength of the arguments he adduced; and if his arguments were altogether feeble, it was in vain for him to take the tone or manner of authority. The mode which the right hon. gent. had adopted, might serve as an useful example, not to follow, but to avoid. The thing, however, which seemed most to have offended the right hon. hon. gent., was, that he seemed to think, that he (Mr. W.) had not received his arguments with all that attention, deference, and respect, which he, no doubt, thought was due to them. It was impossible for ministers, or any other men, to direct their whole attention, in the course of a long debate, to every word that came from those gentlemen oh the opposite benches. Sometimes the very business of the debate itself would oblige them to converse a little with those who sat near them. He believed that it was really some observation arising out of the debate, which might have caused, for a moment, that apparent inattention, of which the right hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke) so loudly complained.
Mr. Yorkein explanation, Said he was ready to apologise to the house, if he had,

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made use of any unparliamentary expression. He certainly had felt a considerable indignation, at a business of such importance being brought forward so late in the session. This indignation he meant to express with the freedom which became a member of parliament, and he hoped he had not transgressed the proper bounds. He had also conceived, that he saw a marked inattention from the right hon. secretary, with which he confessed that he felt himself very much hurt. Since the right hon. secretary had, however, disclaimed what he conceived to have been a marked inattention, he was ready to apologise to the house, if he had been guilty of any irregularity.
Mr. Percevalthought the arguments of his right hon. friend had been mis-stated. The great objection to the bill which was now presented to the house was, that it was upon a subject of so much importance, that it was not fair to bring it forward at so late a period of the session, when there could be but a very thin attendance of members. It appeared to him, that it. would be very wrong, in point of policy, that such a measure should be brought forward, at a time when the militia were in arms, and embodied. It was, then, no time to disgust men, when we looked to them for services. He might be told, as he was the other night about the volunteer drill serjeants, that they might resign. He doubted, however, even whether those who asserted that proposition could venture to say, that the militia might resign. If, then, it was allowed, that they could not resign, and that the terms under which they entered were, that they should be on the same footing with the army, it would be a violation of faith with them, to place them, now, upon a worse condition than time army. Certainly, no little saving, in point of economy, could compensate for the impolicy of disgusting such a body as the militia, at a time when their services were so necessary.
Mr. Gilesconsidered, that all the objections which were made to every measure, on account of the lateness of the session, amounted only to this question, Why did not the present ministers bring forward, all at once, all the measures which they meant to introduce in the course of the session; As to the breach of public faith, that was so much spoken of, he begged leave to remind gentlemen, that the militia was not a voluntary, but a compulsory service; and that, if no particular faith was pledged to
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the balloted men, certainly their substitutes stood in no better situation than they did. Of a man that voluntarily inlisted in the regular army, it would be right to consider, strictly, the terms under which he entered; but the militia-man, whether he is the balloted man or the substitute, enters into the service from the compulsion of the law, and can claim no other terms but what the legislature chooses to give.
Lord De Blaquieresaid, he was decidedly adverse to the bill, as, he thought, it went to disgrace a great military body, and to create an odious distinction between the militia and the regular army.
Mr. O'Harawas for the bill. He was sure, that both the field officers of the militia and of the volunteers, would cheerfully yield to any deductions, that could tend to give the country a greater disposeable force at the present moment.
Sir W. Lemonconsidered that it might be the cause of much discontent, that when the officers of the regulars and militia messed together, the one should say, "We are superior to you; our pay is higher."
Mr. Ellisonsaid, it had been his misfortune, wishing, as he did, to give his support to the ministers, to feel himself under the necessity of successively objecting to all the measures they had brought forward. The bill, then the subject of debate, he was sure, would give the greatest dissatisfaction to the militia, who, from recent intercourse which he had had with some regiments at the barracks in the neighbourhood of the district from which he was returned, he knew, were led, from the late measures of the right hon. gent., to expect an increase of allowance, and were, at present, anxiously awaiting the promulgation of it. He thought, that economy was not a sufficient consideration for a distinction like that proposed to be made in this case, as the militia were liable to the same duties as the regulars, and had always been found to perform them as well. He should vote for the bill to go into a committee, under the hope, that sufficient would transpire therein, to induce the right hon. gent. to relinquish the bill.
Colonel Craufurdcould not at all agree with the opinion of the hon. baronet. So far from the regular officers being entitled to claim any superiority, on account of this distinction, he thought the superiority, as far as income went, was on the other side; and that the militia field-

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Officers, who did not receive the increased pay, merely upon the ground that they were men of somewhat superior fortune, and who, therefore, did not require it, ought, on that ground, neither to claim a superiority over the regular officers, who were, in general, inferior to them in point of fortune. He knew that it was unparliamentary, to impute any improper motives to members of that house; but he must say, that if, in any other assembly, men had acted the same part as had been pursued by those of opposition; if, on every question that could be brought forward, so much was said in praise of the volunteers, and so much had been said of certain expressions of his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), he should think, that their object was merely to catch at popularity, to win to their side that numerous and respectable body of men, and to make his right hon. friend as unpopular and as odious as they could to that body. This would have been his opinion, if a similar conduct had been adopted by any set of gentlemen out of that house; but, in that house, he knew that it was most unparliamentary to suppose, that any member could be actuated by such motives, and, therefore, he did not impute such to them. As to the distinctions of pay, such distinctions .already existed in the regular array, and were not complained of.
Colonel Milfordsaid, it had always been understood to be the rule, that the militia should have the same advantages as the soldiers of the line.
Mr. Windhamsaid, he rose for the purpose of withdrawing, for the present, his motion for the speaker leaving the chair; and moved, "That it be an instruction to the said committee, that they have powers to extend the provisions of the said bill to the volunteers and yeomanry corps."—After the gallery had been ordered to be cleared, this was agreed to. The bill then went into a committee. In the first clause, sir W. Elford proposed to leave out the words "officers, or;" upon which a division took place: Ayes, 17; Noes, 38. The bill then went through the committee, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.

MINUTES.
On the second reading of the bill for more effectually partitioning lands in Ireland subject to ascertaining rights of common, lord Redesdale made several observations, for the purpose of proving, from the nature and provisions of the bill, that it ought not to be further entertained by the house, and concluded by moving, that the bill be rejected. The motion was supported by lord Eldon and the lord Chancellor, and agreed to.—The Usher of the Black Rod having appeared at the bar, and informed the house that the commons were ready for a conference in the Painted Chamber, a committee of conference was appointed, consisting of the earl of Westmeath, the earl of Limerick, lord Carleton, the bishop of Winchester, the bishop of Ossory, lord Redesdale, and lord Arden, who went forth to the Painted Chamber. On their return, the earl of Westmeath reported to the house, that they had received from Mr. Bankes, on the part of the committee of commons, a paper which his lordship read, containing a resolution of the commons (relative to a former resolution of their lordships, communicated to the commons, respecting the examination of lord Teignmouth) referring to the precedent of the examination of the earl of Balcarras before the house, who, not being a peer of parliament, was ordered to attend the house, whilst, on the same occasion, earl Cornwallis, being a peer of. parliament, was requested to attend by a message to the house of lords; also stating that lord Teignmouth, not being a peer of parliament, or having a place or seat in the house of lords, was, in the same manner as the earl of Balcarras, ordered to attend the commons to be examined; and, finally, declaring that the commons conceived it their undoubted right to order the attendance before that house, to be examined touching any matter before the house, of any peer, not being a peer of parliament, or having a place or seat in the house of lords. The earl of Limerick observed, that this resolution contained matter of the highest importance to the peerage of the United Kingdom, and he therefore trusted their lordships would take it into their consideration

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on the earliest possible day. On his lordship's motion, the resolution was ordered to be taken into consideration on Thursday, for which day the lords were ordered to be summoned.

MASTERS IN CHANCERY BILL.
The first reading of the Masters in Chancery bill was moved by lord Eldon.
The Lord Chancellorexpressed his warm approbation of the bill, the object of which was to make an adequate provision for several persons of eminent ability and enlightened minds, to whom the country were every day essentially indebted, for the able and upright discharge of the duties of their offices. The country were also indebted to his noble and learned friend (lord Eldon), for the choice he had made of many of those who now filled the office of masters in chancery; a choice the more pleasing to his noble and learned friend, as those whom he appointed, while they possessed in an eminent degree every qualification that could fit them for their offices, were, at the same time, his private friends. He rejoiced that such a bill had come up to that house, with respect to which it was important also to observe, that it would not be a taxation upon the public, and that not one individual in the country would have any additional burthen thrown upon him in consequence of the passing of this bill.—The bill was ordered to be printed.