Sitting of 2 July 1806

MINUTES.
The Insolvent Debtors bill was read a first time.—Mr. Vansittart brought up a bill for consolidating and rendering more effectual several acts for improving the approaches to Westminster Hall, and the two Houses of Parliament. Read a first time.—Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the committee on the act for allowing the introduction of a limited quantity of coals into the cities of London and Westminster by the Inland navigation. The resolution of the committee was agreed to, and a Bill for continuing the act of the 45th of the king, for that purpose, ordered pursuant thereto.—Mr. Vansittart moved, "that the house do resolve itself into a committee of ways and means," in which it was resolved that the lords commissioners of the treasury should be empowered to issue tickets, not exceeding 100,000, for the purposes of one or more lotteries for the present year, on the usual terms of 101. a ticket, and subject to such regulations as the Lords of the Treasury shall think proper. The report was ordered to be received to-morrow.—The House, on the motion of Mr. Van-

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sittart, resolved itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider of allowing a bounty on the exportation of oil of vitriol, in which it was resolved that a bounty of 5s. 6d. per cwt. should be allowed on all oil of vitriol made in Great Britain, and exported to foreign parts. The report was ordered to be received to-morrow. Mr. Vansittart moved, that the house do resolve itself into a committee of the whole house to consider of the supply granted to his majesty; in which it was resolved, that a sum not exceeding 1,000,000l. be granted to his majesty to enable him to pay the same to the East India company, for money laid out by them in the public service. Also a sum not exceeding 3,000,000l. towards defraying the expences of the extraordinaries of the army for the year 1806. Also 600,000l. for the extraordinaries of the army in Ireland Also 5507l. 18s. 8d. for the purc hase of ordnance lands, for the better security of the docks, ships, and stores at Chatham. The house was resumed, and the report Ordered to be received to-morrow.—On the motion of sir J. Sinclair, the house resolved itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider of the report of the committee on Scotch forfeited estates, in which various sums arising from the said forfeited estates were voted in aid of different specific purposes; such as completing the buildings for the court of Exchequer, promoting the fisheries, and the agricultural interests of the Highlands and for the support and repairs of roads and bridges in Scotland. The report was ordered to be received to-morrow.

KING'S MESSAGE RELATING TO THE ROYAL FAMILY.
Lord Henry Pettyacquainted the house, that he had a message
from his majesty to this house, signed by his majesty; and he presented the same to the house; and it was read by the Speaker, and is as followeth,
viz.
"George R.His Majesty having, by his message of the 8th day of April,1778, recommended to his faithful commons to make competent provision for the honourable support and maintenance of the younger branches of the Royal Family, and in consequence thereof, an act having passed, charging certain annuities, for such purpose, upon the aggregate fund of Great Britain; but no provision having afterwards been made in the act, by which
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the serveral revenues composing the said aggregate fund were transferred to the consolidated fund of G. Britain,for securing the said annuities, by reason whereof the provision so recommended by his maj. and carried into effect by act of parliament, has failed and become ineffectual; his maj. recommends to the house of commons to consider of such measures as may be necessary for securing the said annuities upon the consolidated fund, and his maj. cannot forbear taking this occasion to express his desire, that his faithful commons will take into consideration the propriety of such increase of the said allowances, as the change of circumstances that has since taken place shall appear to have rendered just and reasonable; and that they will make such further provision, in consequence thereof, as the nature of the case shall be found to require."—The message was referred to the committee of supplies.

AUDITOR'S BILL.
Lord Henry Pettymoved the order of the day for the second reading of the Auditor's bill.
Mr. T. Joneswished, as considerable doubts had gone abroad on the subject, to ask the noble lord whether they were to understand that any considerable portion of the 450 millions, he had stated on a former occasion as the amount of unaudited accounts, was recoverable to the public?
Lord Henry Pettywas surprised, after all the discussions that had taken place on the subject, and all the explanations that had been given, that any doubt could be entertained on this subject. He meant as he had stated, that public accounts to that amount were still unaudited, and of course unaccounted for, that is, that the accounts had not been regularly investigated, or finally audited.
Mr. Rosestated, that he did not expect the second reading to have been pressed this night, the bill having only come into the hands of the members within the last two or three hours.
Lord H. Pettysaid, he had no wish to press the bill, but thought the debate on the principle might as well take place on the question for the Speaker's leaving the chair. To this
Mr. Roseassented. Hehad, however, serious objections to the principle of the bill

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which he thought calculated to raise the surmises to which an hon. gent. (Mr. Jones) had just alluded. He maintained that nine tenths of the 450 millions mentioned by the noble lord as unaudited had actually been audited before they came to be considered by the Commissioners of Accounts, by whom it had formerly been resolved, that it was an unnecessary waste of the public money, to audit the accounts of the Navy, Army, Bank, Ordnance, Customs, &c. which were actually audited, and effectually audited, previous to their coming before them. If these were laid out of the computation he contended that not ten millions would remain of accounts unaudited, and if the noble lord at the head of the Treasury Board, or the noble lord opposite, had been aware of this circumstance, he was convinced the house would never have been troubled with the present bill.
The Attorney Generalcould not allow the noble lord's statement to have been so much misunderstood by the public, as to be interpreted into an assurance, that the vast sum unaccounted for was a recoverable balance yet applicable to the public service. It was certainly a public e calling for an immediate and decisive remedy, that the accounts to so large an amount should remain above 20 years unexamined, as was the case with those of the Paymaster of the Forces. Nothing could be a greater temptation to abuse.
Mr. Haskissonsaid the paymaster was merely bound to return a list of those to whom he issued the sums drawn by him from the Exchequer; and those persons were bound to account for what was issued to them. That had been done with very few exceptions.
Mr. T. Joneshoped the bill would make effectual provision for a speedy audit. He would propose a clause to that effect in a future stage.
Mr. Windhamcould not conceive how a delay of 20 years could have occurred in the audit of the paymaster's accounts, if the sub-accountants had accounted regularly.
Mr. Rose,in explanation stated, that the paymaster was to give in a certified list of those to whom he issued the money: the Commissioners of Audit were then to call on the persons named in this list.—The bill was then read a second time.

ASSESSED TAXES ALLOWANCE BILL.
Lord Henry Pettymoved the further consideration of the report of this bill.
Mr. Huskissonwished the noble lord to be more explicit in his explanation of his measure. When he proposed an increase of the property tax, the noble lord thought that no allowance should be made in it for the number of children, and now it was impossible to discover, whether he proposed this abatement in consideration of the pressure of the property tax, the assessed taxes, or the taxes generally. One thing was certain, that this would make a very great diminution, to the extent of 2 or 300,000l. in the produce of the revenue upon the permanent taxes. The assessments afforded no criterion of a man's income, and the bill should properly state the principle on which it proceeded. The surplus of the consolidated fund was a security against any defalcations: but by this exemption, it would be considerably diminished. The noble lord found himself under the necessity of adding 1,200,000l. to the permanent taxes; and, by this measure, he would increase the charge upon them, without having made any further provision for it. If the war should cease, the noble lord might be induced to repeal the property tax, and this deduction would operate on that part of the consolidated fund, upon which there were permanent charges. He stated his intention to propose a clause for remedying this inconvenience.
Lord H. Pettyremarked, that when he proposed the additional property tax, the gentlemen on the other side seemed to wish the exemptions to be continued as before; but he thought it objectionable, as well upon general principles, as in its application to the execution of that tax. This mode also was not entirely consistent with what he conceived to be the general principles of taxation; but he adopted it, as being less objectionable in practice than the other. He held it to be the most blameable and mischievous of all delusions, to hold out exemptions, which could not be realized, on account of the difficulties and impediments that. might be thrown in their way, which could not happen in this case. He had no objection to explain, that the principle of this allowance arose out of the general pressure of taxation upon the people of this

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country, and he did not wish to limit it as to time, but to let it remain, while that pressure continued. It was true, that some inequalities would necessarily exist in it; but if it were made general. it would lead to that delusion, which he was desirous of avoiding. As to the diminution it would occasion, that would be made up by the surplus upon other taxes, and the consolidated fund would be secured by giving it a credit in the war taxes.
Mr. Huskissonstill objected to the diverting of any part or the permanent taxes, for the purpose of relief from the pressure of the temporary taxes. He concluded by moving a clause, by which it was provided that a sum equal to the amount of the exemption should be paid into the consolidated fund out of the property tax—Lord H. Petty agreed to this amendment, and the bill was ordered to be read a third time the next day.

VACCINE INOCULATION.
Lord Henry Petty roseand addressed the house as follows:—I rise, sir, in pursuance of the notice I gave to the house a few days to call your attention to a subjects eneral importance. It is indeed a subject which is totally unconnected with all party principles. It however, concerns the welfare, health, and existence of a large portion of his majesty's subjects, and, therefore, is well deserving of the consideration and support of parliament. I mean, sir, that very remarkable discovery, and the practice which has followed it, of inoculation of the cow-pox, commonly called Vaccine Inoculation, as a substitute for the loathsome small pox, an evil which has spread a dreadful desolation throughout the whole world. In submitting this subject to your notice, I shall not enter minutely into an investigation, or inquiry, as to the gradual progress which the practice of this inoculation has made among the several nations of Europe. I shall briefly mention it to be the discovery of an eminent and most celebrated physician, who for 30 years has devoted his whole mind and attention to promote its salutary effects amongst mankind. The knowledge of this important subject first commenced in the year 1777: so early did it strike Dr. Jenner, a name which has become well known amongst all the nations in Europe,
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and indeed throughout the whole world. That gentleman, by devoting the whole of his time, attention, and labours, to this subject, has, by a slow and gradual progress, brought the practice of his valuable discovery into very great, reputation. It was, however, in the year 1796, when he first thought of extending its benefits by inoculation. To that illustrious character, therefore, we are entitled to ascribe our being likely to get rid of the small pox, one of the most dangerous calamities that mankind has ever been afflicted with.—In the year 1798, Dr. Jenner having ascertained its advantages by sufficient experiments, it was extended, and soon after submitted to the consideration of this house, and under its sanction, and chiefly owing to its patronage, it was established throughout England. In the year 1799, this discovery gained its way ever the whole continent of America, and even amongst the Indians, it has been practised with a degree of success fully answering the most sanguine expectations of him who at first suggested it. In 1800 it was adopted upon the continent; and, under the auspices of our commander in chief, it extended to the shores of the Mediterranean. Afterwards from its favourable reception in the kingdom of Naples, and most of the Italian states, it gradually made its progress northwards. In Russia, Prussia, and Denmark it was eagerly embraced; but I could wish to call the attention of the house in a particular manner to the success which it has met with in the dominions of the House of Austria. In the year preceding its introduction into Vienna, the average amount of deaths, occasioned by the small pox, was 835, but in 1799 the vaccine inoculation was introduced, and in 1802 the number of deaths arising from that fatal malady was reduced to 61. In 1803 it was further reduced to 27, and in 1804 the actual number who died of the small pox amounted to two persons only, and these were arrivals from the country. Upon a fair calculation, therefore, it may reasonably be computed that the whole. annual saying of the lives of persons from that disorder, amounts on an average to 833 in one capital, by time beneficial practice of vacine inoculation. After having stated this fact, which makes the deepest im

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pression upon my mind, I think I have submitted one of the strongest motives which have induced me to adopt some measure to promote its progress in our own country. While the inhabitants of all Europe and America are at this moment reaping the beneficial consequences of such a wonderful discovery; while in the East Indies alone, there have been upwards of 800,000 persons inoculated in the space of a single year; and whilst in the empire of China, too, its introduction has become general, and it has been regularly successful in its effects in every part of the globe; I am sorry, extremely hurt, however, to observe, that in this country alone, in which the discovery had originated, the salutary practice of vaccine inoculation has been of late years undergoing a retrograde movement. What has been the real cause of this melancholy circumstance? Objections certainly have been Started, and the promulgation of them in the manner in which they have been circulated throughout the kingdom, has no doubt had the effect of arresting very considerably the progress of vaccination, and of spreading abroad the dreadful consequences of the original malady, thereby increasing the number of its victims. I observe, in the city of London, in the year 1802, the average number of deaths for six years, was 1811, but the effects of the vaccine inoculation, at first, went considerably to reduce that number, and in 1804 it was only 629, being about one-third of the average number of individuals who had perished, by the small pox, for six years preceding the introduction of vaccination. But, in consequence of the numerous prejudices which have been excited, and the opinions that have been circulated adverse to vaccination, the. original practice of inoculating for the small pox has been gradually Making progress, and the number of deaths Which have happened during the last year has amounted to no less than 1680, which is bringing back nearly that average degree of depopulation which had been experienced previous to the introduction of the vaccine discovery. Under these alarming circumstances, sir, I found, that in every point of view, this measure claims the most serious attention of the legislature, and, therefore, I am now about to submit some mode of procedure concerning it. I have not the smallest inclina
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tion to propose any compulsory measures, being well convinced that whatever may be our view of any subject of science, this house ought to pause very long indeed, before they prescribe any law to individuals upon matters which relate to their own health, and even on which the very existence of their children may depend. These, indeed, are topics upon which private individuals in society are to be allowed to be the most competent judges; but, if I am not to have recourse to compulsory measures, I feel that it is at least a duty incumbent upon me in the situation in which I stand. at this time, to submit a motion to this house, to which, if they agree, their procedure will tend to enlighten the public, by informing them in a formal and regular manner, of what appears to us to be the truth. It will give to this valuable discovery the advantage of having all the weight of promulgation which the high character and popularity of parliament is capable of. With that view, I shall think it proper to submit a plan by which this house shall become possessed of a mass of evidence as to the real merits of this discovery; which will prove highly satisfactory both to ourselves and to the public at large. This measure I propose to effect by the house voting an address to his majesty, praying that his royal college of physicians shall be requested to enquire into the progress of vaccine inoculation, and to assign the causes of its success having been retarded throughout the united kingdoms, in order that their report may be made to this house of parliament, and that we may take the most proper means of publishing it to the inhabitants at large. If the result of such proposed inquiry turn out (as I am strongly disposed to think it will) a corroboration of the beneficial effects which other nations seem convinced are derived from vaccine inoculation, it will satisfy the people of this country of the many evils which arise from the rapid progress of the other fatal species of disorder. It will prove to them that the bad effects which have been ascribed to vaccination have been dreadfully exaggerated; and that the temporary duration of its benefits, in a few cases, have been owing to some kind of mismanagement. If such shall be the result of the proposed inquiry, I have no hesitation in saying that it ought afterwards to

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be for this house to consider whether or not any reward has been bestowed upon the original discoverer of vaccine inoculation, which is in any degree adequate to its real importance, and as such consistent with the general character and liberality of this country. This, however, is a subject for after consideration; but in the mean time the house will agree with me as to the propriety of collecting opinions relative to the general effects of this mode of inoculation, and to show to the world that if there be any truth as to its benefits, we shall not be the first to reject them; but that, on the contrary, we shall use every means to encourage its progress, and this in a manner consistent with the dignity and character of our nation.—The noble lord concluded with moving, "that an humble address be presented to his majesty, to request that his majesty will be graciously pleased to direct his College of Physicians to enquire into the state of vaccine inoculation in the united kingdom, and to report their opinion and observations upon that practice, the evidence which has been adduced in its support, and the causes which have hither to retarded its general adoption; and that his majesty will be graciously pleased to direct that the said report, when made, may be laid before this house.
Dr. Matthews.—It is with much satisfaction, sir, that I rise to second the motion which the noble lord has just now made, and to take this opportunity of stating my own sentiments upon this invaluable discovery. From the time of its first publication to the world I have paid it the utmost attention, and have carefully watched its progress. I must confess that, at first, although I was perfectly disposed to admit the veracity of the celebrated discoverer himself, yet I received the accounts of its success with a certain degree of caution. I then thought that it might be attended with considerable hazard to society were we to give up practising a mode, the good effects of which had been already fully experienced, in order to adopt one which might be uncertain, precarious, and dangerous in its consequences. Under these impressions, sir, I attended with assiduity to the progress of this new practice as it advanced, and the result has been, that my mind has now received the fullest conviction of the vast superiority of the vaccine inoculation over that of the small pox inoculation.
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It may be right, that I should, on an occasion like the present, submit to your notice a few of the most striking circumstances which have occurred to me as to the effects of the original mode of inoculation for the small pox. In the first place, in many cases, where the disorder takes a bad turn, not only will deformities arise upon the human countenance, but death itself, in its most awful form often ensues. In the second place, however beneficial this original mode of prevention may be to individuals, it is well known that it forms a magazine of the most dreadful evils, and that contagion, with all its baneful effects, usually follows. A reference to the bills of mortality will prove this assertion, and show to demonstration, that the number of deaths have been greatly increased since the first discovery of the small pox inoculation. In the third place, my great objection to conveying the variolous matter into the human constitution is, that it has been the means of introducing scrophula, which is a more dangerous and pernicious disorder than even the natural small pox itself; insomuch, as that the one makes a speedy and the other, a slow progress towards, death. The numerous cases which have come tinder my own observation, since the introduction of the vaccine inoculation, have effectually persuaded me of its advantageous effects, notwithstanding the variety of opinions it has excited, and the several instances which have been adduced to demonstrate its failure. These instances, sir, I have found upon minute Investigation, have been exceedingly equivocal, and in several cases the experiment has turned out not to have been. properly performed. Where a few instances have been produced to prove that the small pox had ensued even after vaccine inoculation, they by no means tend to convince me of the inefficacy of the discovery; for even similar cases are known to have occurred in the other species of inoculation. None of the instances, which have hitherto been brought forward by those who professed them selves to be enemies to this valuable and important discovery have had the smallest effect in creating doubts in my mind as to its ultimate success. I have no hesitation, therefore, in saying at this moment that I am fully convinced, the result of further experience will correspond completely with my most sanguine expectations.

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I cannot doubt, sir, that the country in a short time will hasten to testify further marks of its gratitude for the in estimable benefits it has received from the assiduous exertions of the respectable and learned doctor to whom this important discovery is owing. His name, I doubt not, will be enrolled by posterity amongst those
'Inventas aut qui vitam excoluere per artes Atque sui memores alios fecere merendi.'
Such are the grounds upon which I rose to second this motion of the noble lord, and I have only to express my hope that the house of commons will add some other solid proofs of its gratitude, and thereby shew the disposition in parliament to encourage all manner of discoveries which tend materially to the general benefit of mankind.
Mr. Wilberforce.—It gives me, sir, the greatest pleasure to find that the noble lord opposite me has now taken up this question. I have long entertained an anxious desire, that such an important subject should be brought into the house, through the medium of some individual in an high and powerful situation. Although that noble lord has fulfilled my hopes and expectations in this respect, yet, sir, I am greatly disposed to doubt, whether the plan he has just now suggested is so likely to have the desired effect as some others that might be submitted to the consideration of the house. It may be remembered, that some time ago, a certificate had been made out and signed by a most respectable body of medical gentlemen, as to the propriety and efficacy of vaccine inoculation. I believe that every medical name of any celebrity, in the city of London and its environs, was attached to that certificate, and, therefore, so far as the effect of such a mode of procedure, as relates to medical men could go, it has already been tried. Undoubtedly there have been various rumours circulated and arguments raised against the practice of inoculation for the cow pox, and every one has heard of some individual instances of failure, and it has unfortunately happened, that many of these failures have originated through the imprudent management even of its best friends. Many persons have taken upon them to give this disorder, without any study, relying upon the bare description they had re-
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ceived of it, believing this to be sufficient to enable any individual to pronounce upon its real character, and to practise it with success and the utmost safety. This, I believe, has been carried too far, and consequently there have been instances in which persons have been inoculated with the vaccine matter, who have had no true disease; hence some have had the natural, and others the inoculated small pox, at some distance of time after such imperfect operation. To this kind of mismanagement I am inclined to attribute the foundation of the various publications which have tended to retard the progress of this valuable and important discovery. What I conceived as a preferable and more practicable course of procedure, in regard to the object which the noble lord has in view, would be, that a committee of the house of commons, and another of the house of lords, should be appointed to enquire into the actual state of the disease, and to receive evidence as to its progress and effects. When the last measure was adopted by the house of commons, upon this same subject, various cases were brought forward by persons who said that the practice of inoculation amounted to a failure; such cases were heard by the committee with the greatest impartiality, yet we all know how favourable their ultimate report to the house was as to its success. Upon these grounds I cannot help thinking that another report of a similar nature with the former, being presented to the house, would be attended with much greater advantages than merely a report or certificate, from the college of physicians, and would be much more congenial to the inclinations and feelings of the people of this country. The one might be considered as being biassed by prejudice, but the other universally as acting with the greatest impartiality for the general good of the nation. Although I agree with the noble lord, that compulsory measures, in such cases ought carefully to be avoided, if possible; at the same time I think there is another, method which may be adopted With absolute justice and propriety. Although we cannot force people to inoculate with the vaccine matter, in preference to that of the small pox, yet we may impose certain rules, or restrictions, on those who do put the latter practice into

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execution upon their children. This would contribute greatly to secure the public against the effects of contagion, in the same manner as is done in the case of the plague. The laws of quarantine have continued long enough to be enforced, and have been found to be attended with infinite advantage. These may be deemed a constraint upon the public, but having proved so beneficial, why not impose the same controul over mankind in other cases where communications with the diseased may be attended with dangerous consequences? Now we know, sir, that the small pox has been found by long and fatal experience, to be nearly a kind of plague, so that great advantage would arise to society were we to prohibit persons who do not vaccinate their children, from allowing them, when labouring under the small pox, to go out amongst others who have hitherto escaped its dreadful consequences. This is a sort of justice, which I conceive parliament owes to the country, and a benefit, which would, by our example being followed, even extend itself to other countries. The present permission of variolated patients going abroad amongst society is not productive of any advantages, either to the children themselves, or their parents. If we found that the parents were not willing to confine their children in their own houses, would there not be an evident propriety in government having places appointed for that express purpose? I only throw out these hints, as I think it is a thing which gentlemen ought to hold in their minds. This measure of regulation could by no possible construction be reckoned as compulsory upon the feelings of the people, or in any degree injurious to the liberty of society. It is merely an act of security, rendered necessary in order to guard the lives of some of our fellow-creatures against infection, and is both a salutary and mild restriction. It is not contrary to measures which parliament have it in their power to adopt, in regard to other cases of contagious disorders. I remember perfectly well, that soon after the discovery of vaccine inoculation, it was said that many more people had died of the small pox than before; this however, was found to be entirely owing to the patients going into the open air, and catching infection at a time when they were most susceptible of it. I am not at all surprised that the
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practice of vaccine inoculation has made so very little progress in this the very country where it originated, as it is owing to one of those curious circumstances which arise from the state and principles of human nature that new discoveries are viewed with greater caution and surprise in those places where they are first made, than in those countries where they are afterwards disseminated. While in other countries great labour and pains are bestowed in cultivating and improving a discovery, and in putting it into practice for the benefit of the human race, it is often found that the reputation of its original success dies gradually away in the very country which gave it birth.—Now, sir, what is the best mode of getting the better of that extraordinary antipathy which arises in the human mind upon the subject of discoveries or innovations? Is it not to infuse information into the minds of the people by every possible means! To hold out to their view proofs of its superior efficacy in foreign countries, and to demonstrate clearly the advantages with which it might naturally be attended in our own? and to remove those prejudices which have arisen from the vague and unfounded reports of self-interested individuals? These surely are the means which, if adopted, would tend to dis eminate the happy consequences of this useful and wonderful discovery throughout the inhabitants of our own country, and still farther to extend its advantages to the most distant quarters of the globe. On the whole, sir, I cannot help wishing, that the noble lord would consider whether, or not, it would be practicable to appoint such a committee to report to the house the result of their investigations against next session of parliament, and also to ascertain whether, or not, such restrictions as those which I have now suggested, would not be attended with most beneficial consequences to the health; welfare, and happiness of society. The plan of having this committee to procure the evidence adduced before themselves, I am convinced would be much better relished by the country than the mode proposed by the present motion of leaving that committee to form this judgment upon the previous report of the College of Physicians. The same species of evidence would still be open to them, and

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they would no doubt be inclined to view the whole through an impartial medium; their minds being previously quite unbiassed upon the subject, would only be susceptible of changes by the evidence before them.
Mr. Secretary Windham.—
The only point, sir, in which it appears to me, that we differ in opinion, as to the subject under our consideration, is, as to the mode that ought to be pursued in effecting the object we have in view. Upon this point I must say, that I am rather inclined to give the preference to the plan which has been suggested by my noble friend, who brought forward this motion. The proposition which has been just now made by the hon. gent. seems to be merely a commutation of that which has been suggested by the noble lord near me. The whole difference turns upon the question of substituting the report of a committee of this house for that of the College of Physicians. The hon. member seems to think, that an investigation and report, proceeding from a committee, would have more weight and authority with the public, than a report issuing from a body of Physicians. In this particular, however, I must beg leave to differ from him, as I think a committee of this house would be less competent to form a correct and sound judgment upon the subject, than medical men would be. Their incompetency would be felt and considered by the public, and consequently an opinion from them, as to the good or bad effects of the vaccine inoculation would have much less weight on their minds. It would not tend to allay their suspicions, nor administer a guidance for their future conduct. Far different, however, would be the effect of a report proceeding from that learned and respectable body, the Royal College of Physicians, most formally called upon by parliament. By the noble lord's plan, I think the authority and influence of parliament would come in just in the way in which it ought to come."It will add a superior degree of solemnity to our sanction of what we deem a most useful and highly beneficial discovery. In the one case, the house would be grounding their procedure upon the opinion of a committee, founded perhaps upon fallacious principles, while in the other they
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will proceed upon the surest grounds, upon the sentiments and opinions of men of experience, in a learned profession, which enables them to judge with superior accuracy and acuteness upon subjects connected with that profession. To committees of this house the common adage might be applied, Ne suitor ultra crepidam; for it is a well-known fact, that a man is always a more competent judge of matters relating to his own profession than another who is a perfect stranger to such subjects.—On the whole, I think, that the plan of my noble friend would have infinitely the best chance of overcoming the public prejudices, and of giving validity to the opinions of those best able to judge of the real merits of this valuable discovery made by Dr. Jenner. Perhaps, indeed, these prejudices may be found already too deeply rooted in the minds of some few individuals to be extirpated by the combined efforts both of the college of physicians and of parliament, if we were to judge from the failure of our former sanction, in accomplishing the utmost of our wishes. This, however, I sincerely trust will not be the case, as I am one of those who, convinced of its superior efficacy by its success in foreign countries, have only to deplore that it has not met with better encouragement in our own.—The hon. gent. who spoke last recommends a certain species of compulsion, and indeed I think it is such a one as the legislature of any country may, in certain cases, be well entitled to adopt, in order to prevent contagious maladies from spreading among society. Such compulsory measures ought, however, not to be adopted except in cases of the most urgent necessity. If it really can be shewn that compulsory measures are requisite upon the present occasion, then is parliament blameable for not having adopted them sooner.—It is now common to be scandalized at seeing. the wretched and miserable objects, who are afflicted with this baneful disorder, carried about in the public streets, in the arms of their anxious and afflicted parents, mingling with society, as if no such infectious disease existed.—I know well, however, that the moment any kind of compulsion is adopted upon subjects of this sort, that moment there is a greater degree of hatred excited in the

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public mind against what may be judiciously prescribed; and I therefore should be exceedingly unwilling to resort to such a measure.—The mild, solemn, and considerate recommendation of vaccination by parliament being what they judge the most prudent plan to be pursued, will no doubt go infinitely further than any constraint whatever. Had the question this day related solely to the quantum of reward which parliament ought to bestow upon the discoverer of this most efficacious and beneficial practice, I should not have objected to the appointment of a committee in the manner the hon. member proposes, namely for the purpose of leaving the business entirely to their discretion. That subject, however, will be more fit for future consideration, when this previous point is properly ascertained to the satisfaction of the public. Then will be the time to remunerate and encourage that meritorious individual to whom society in general owes the utmost gratitude and favour, and who, I cannot help thinking, has not yet been sufficiently rewarded for the expence and trouble this discovery has cost him. Such are the grounds upon which I think it my duty to support the noble lord in the motion he has made, and the reasons which would make me exceedingly unwilling to resort to compulsory measures under any circumstances, except those of the most urgent and dangerous necessity.
Mr. Wilberforcein explanation, said, I should be sorry to be in any degree misunderstood as to what I have said in regard to compulsion. The rt. hon. gent. seems to suppose I meant to suggest the propriety of adopting compulsory measures in regard to the practice of the vaccine inoculation. So far from meaning that kind of constraint, I think I expressed myself so as to imply that it would be absolutely wrong. This is my most deliberate opinion. All that I meant by talking of compulsion was, that sonic particular mode ought to be prescribed for enforcing certain regulations and restrictions upon those individuals, who might in a voluntary manner submit to small-pox inoculation, such regulations being of a kind neither to be injurious nor to bear hard upon them in any respect whatever. It was alone with the intention of providing for the convenience
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of such afflicted individuals, who, from their situation in life, or other circumstances, might not be enabled to provide for themselves proper accmomodation. These, sir, were my sentiments; and I still think that some such provision is necessary, in order to afford vaccine inoculation the benefit of an impartial, a prudent, and an effectual trial. Such a measure would be attended with this important advantage too, that the public themselves would more easily become witnesses of the greater efficacy of the vaccine inoculation, and consequently of its rapid and successful progress throughout the united kingdom.
Mr. Bankes.—Sir, it appears to me that the mode proposed by the noble lord is exceedingly eligible at this late period of the session, in so far as he wishes to combine the science of a learned body with the judgment and deliberation of a committee of the house of commons, and that nothing should be determined upon until both their reports have been conjoined and submitted to the consideration of the house. If this motion had been made however, at an earlier period of the session, I cannot help thinking that, in a matter of this sort (which is a matter of fact, and not a question of science), there could not be a better mode of procedure than that which has been suggested by my hon. friend near me. Even those the best acquainted with the matter under discussion cannot pretend to give an accurate description of the real sources from which the existing prejudices have arisen, or the causes from which its want of cultivation and encouragement have originated. The subject in which the public are most materially interested, and the fact which remains to be more clearly ascertained is, whether this discovery, which has been made by Dr. Jenner is, in the mode in which it is now practised, of such a sort as to afford us a reasonable security against the ravages of that more dreadful disorder which it is intended to prevent.—
This, sir, appears to me to be a subject of consideration so distinct from that of a scientific nature, that it is one which any number of reasonable and thinking men, affording their time to it, are as capable of laying distinctly and clearly before the public, as the most learned body that ever existed could do.

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—As my noble friend, however, does not, by his proposed plan, preclude a combination of all the advantages resulting from science and learning, and experience, I cannot object to it, although I may think it capable of some improvement.—From the understanding I have of the matter, I think, that the peculiar disadvantages under which this valuable discovery has laboured in this country, and the causes which have retarded its progress here more than in other parts of Europe, have been in a great measure. owing to the manner in which the operation of introducing the vaccine matter has been performed. While in other countries, the practice has been solely confined to scientific persons, it has been rendered here so exceedingly plain to every understanding, that all persons have been enabled to put it into execution. In this country it has been found that scarcely any one of the profession is called to practice it. To this indiscriminate use, therefore, I am inclined to attribute its failure in success in those cases which have been urged by its enemies as arguments against its introduction. In those countries where it has been entirely confined to medical persons, it has been ascertained, that no such exceptions to its success have ever been started; for as I have been informed no such cases of failure have ever happened amongst them. The improvement, or rather addition, which I am inclined to suggest to the noble lord's motion, is the junction of another learned body, who have been overlooked on this occasion, but who, it would be exceedingly proper, should also be requested to join in this enquiry. The learned body to which I allude, sir, is that of the Royal College of Surgeons. If we are to enter into a minute investigation at all, and endeavour to receive information from men of science as a general rule for our Conduct, why ought we not to make that enquiry and research as general and extensive as possible? A subject of this kind does not require us to confine our investigation to physicians alone. Upon that footing, sir, I shall take the liberty of suggesting to the noble lord, that a provision should be inserted for the purpose of referring the question as to the vaccine inoculation also to the Royal College of Surgeons. I cannot help stating, that I still persevere in the opinion I formerly entertained, that if this discovery
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be of that utility and advantage, which I trust and hope it will prove to be, it will find its way against all opposition, and that the learned doctor, who has been the discoverer of this great and important secret to mankind, cannot in such a country as this, fail of obtaining his due reward, by the immense extension of his medical practice. Add to this, that the learned doctor, who has made this valuable and beneficial discovery, certainty must also gain a considerable additional advantage, in consequence of this inquiry now about to be set on foot, in order to quiet the fears, and strengthen the conviction of the people, which leads me to think that Dr. Jenner will find himself well remunerated without any thing further from parliament. As to the question of compulsion, which has been touched upon in the course of this discussion, I can hardly think that my hon. friend near me (Mr. Wilberforce), who has shewn himself so well acquainted with this general principles of liberty upon all occasions, meant to recommend any compulsory measures, that would infringe upon that freedom, which even allows prejudice to work its way. You may be assured, sir, that there is a sense in the people of England, which will not long oppose truth; that even without the aid of parliament, without enquiries through the means of committees or investigations and reports made out by a College of Physicians, prejudice will at last disappear, and truth will ultimately prevail. As the mode now proposed, however, certainly tend either to expedite on the one hand a conviction of that truth which it is so desireable to assert, or, on the other, to expose the fallacy of those arguments which have been adduced in favour of the discovery, without any undue means being used to support the one, or the other, I shall certainly vote for the motion which has been made by the noble lord.
Mr. William Smith—I do not rise, sir, for the purpose of discussing the real merits, as to the effect of this wonderful discovery, relying that we shall in the end find, that it will turn out to our most sanguine expectations, and consequently well worthy the further liberality of parliament. I merely wish to make a few observations upon a subject which is of such vast importance to the public at large, that I do not think a few

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minutes will be at all mis-spent upon this occasion, although there is to be an ulterior discussion. I cannot help thinking with the honourable gentleman who spoke last, that if there were also to be a reference to the College of Surgeons as well as to the College of Physicians, considerable advantage would be derived, for this plain and obvious reason, that surgeons more than physicians, have had occasion to practise the vaccine inoculation, and to enter into the merits of the arguments which have been raised concerning it. With respect to the reasons which have prevented the propagation of this measure for saving the lives of the people in this country, as it has done in others, I must admit that my learned friend (Dr. Matthews) has hit upon the very sentiments I wished to have expressed. I do not believe that any effectual plan has been adopted in order to prevent mistakes in the performance of the operation. I really am of opinion, that a great part of those prejudices which have arisen, proceeded entirely from the circumstances of its having been conducted by the hands of persons who from carelessness or ignorance have communicated to their patients a false and spurious species of this disorder. This is indeed a cause which we must all lament; and I think that it affords an additional reason for referring the subject to the investigation of surgeons as well as physicians. I must confess, sir, that I rose chiefly to express my extreme satisfaction, that this most important and interesting subject has been brought forward from the respectable quarter from which it has proceeded. The high and respectable character which the noble lord possesses in his majesty's government is a circumstance alone sufficient to do away those prejudices which are at present excited, and to obviate the objections which have been maliciously raised against this valuable discovery. I do, I affirm, most sincerely rejoice that the matter has been thus taken up, for at all events I am convinced that if the plan proposed by the noble lord be adopted by the house, the ends in view will be completely answered, and the country will soon reap infinite advantage, by a saving of the lives of thousands of its inhabitants.
Mr. Paull—Sir, I beg leave to make a few observations upon the subject now under discussion. I happened to live many
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years in the town of Lucknow, where there is reckoned a greater population than in any other part of the East Indies. The vaccine inoculation was there first introduced by men of science, although it afterwards came to be known, and practised by people in the profession of physic two centuries behind us in the knowledge of medicine. In that town, sir, the number of lives, which were annually lost by the dreadful ravages of the small pox, was reckoned to amount to between 670 and 800, annually, but since the introduction of this discovery, there were not above 75 persons who annually died of that disease during the last 3 years I resided in that place. The people in that part of the world, so far from thinking it requisite that men of science should alone practise it, were convinced that it was only necessary to be performed by slight intelligence in order to be effectual. There is one other circumstance which I think worthy of remark; which is that in Scotland prejudice is certainly much stronger against the practice of vaccination than in England, and particularly in the most northern parts of it, and, for that reason, I am inclined to suggest to the noble lord, the propriety of joining the college of Physicians at Edinburgh in the proposed investigation.
Lord Henry Petty.—Sir, I certainly experience a very great degree of satisfaction in finding the house so unanimous as to the general object in view from the motion which I have thought it incumbent upon me to submit to your consideration, and I think that nothing but the lateness of the session should prevent us from coming to some conclusion upon this important subject. Those hon. gentlemen, who have spoken upon this occasion, have distinctly and accurately stated the object I had in view, to consist in combining all the weight of scientific knowledge that could possibly be obtained. This end, I think, may be fully accomplished by the inquiry being instituted by that learned and scientific body, recognized by the government of this country, under the name of the Royal College of Physicians, and by an ulterior reference of their sentiments to this house through the medium of our committee. I cannot however, agree with an hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Bankes) who has given it as his opinion, that this enquiry

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will not be one that involves a question of science but merely a matter of fact. Could that hon. gent. really suppose it possible that any committee of this house can investigate the question in such a manner as to ascertain what is a criterion with respect to the age of the matter to be infused, and how to distinguish the spurious from the genuine pustule! I do firmly believe. sir, that one of the great causes from which its failure has arisen has been the adoption of late matter, and introducing it into the human system instead of that particular description of matter recommended by the learned discoverer himself. I must differ somewhat, too, from another hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Wiberforce), when he suggests the mode of leaving the whole inquiry to a committee of the house; must it not occur to every one, that the best method to ascertain with precision its evil or its beneficial consequences, will be to institute the inquiry by means of medical men, as none but such men can rightly judge of these matters. Could a committee of this house, unassisted by professional gentlemen, be capable of properly ascertaining the degree of credit which ought to be attached to the various reports which have been most industriously circulated abroad, in the various publications which have lately appeared? Or is it to be imagined, that a committee of this house can determine the reality of the assertion in some of these pamphlets, that the vaccine matter is apt to produce the worst affections in the human frame? No, it is not in the power of any set of individuals, however learned and experienced they may be in other matters, to resolve with accuracy such medical questions without the assistance of professional men. I cannot, therefore, entertain a doubt that there are parts of this investigation which may be exceedingly proper for a committee, and other parts wily for a medical body. Now, sir, with respect to annexing the College of Surgeons to this inquiry: I hope the house will do me the justice to think that I have before considered that point. It was suggested to me previously to my coming down to the house, but it occurred to me, that the inquiry ought rather to proceed from one centre. I have no doubt, sir, but that the Royal College of Physicians in
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London, being called on by the unanimous vote of this house, will be looked up to by the public with that liberality and those favourable sentiments which are due to them, and that the College of Physicians both in Scotland and in Ireland, will correspond with it, and also the College of Surgeons will communicate to that learned body every information in their power. Thus will the opinions or all the learned and scientific men in the three united kingdoms be combined, and together with the learning and discernment of the committee, be comprised in the Report to be submitted to this house. We shall then, availing ourselves of such an accumulated weight of information and evidence, lay the whole matter before the public, in order to remove their prejudices or confirm their doubts. Such, sir, is the mode which appears to me to be the most eligible on this occasion; and trust the house will have no hesitation in agreeing unanimously with the motion which I have this day submitted to them. Before concluding, I cannot help taking notice of one other particular, which has been touched upon in the course of this discussion. It related to the remuneration which had been already granted by parliament to Dr. Jenner, to whom the world owes this invaluable discovery. As there will certainly be some ulterior proceedings upon this business, it will then become matter of future consideration, whether or not the reward, formerly conferred upon that learned gentleman, was sufficient, or inadequate, for those great services which he has rendered to mankind, and the great expence he has put himself to in bringing this subject clearly to light. If the report shall be favourable towards the successful practice of this discovery, as I have no doubt it will be, I shall think it my duty to contend on a future day, that the remuneration granted to Dr. Jenner is much more inadequate than it ought to be—On this point, however, there will be ample room for discussion, it being a case which touches the pecuniary concerns of the country, when it will be the duty of every member to state what occurs to him upon such a subject, so those who seem to imagine that the remuneration already conferred is sufficiently ample in every point of view, will have an opportu-

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nity of further stating the grounds on which their arguments are founded.—The motion was then put from the chair, and agreed to nem. con.

MINUTES.
Lord Grenvillepresented a message from his majesty, adverting to the inadequacy of the funds at present assigned for the provision of the younger branches of the Royal Family (similar to that presented to the House of Commons, and to which we refer), and desiring the concurrence of their lordships in such measures as may be deemed necessary, to enable his majesty to supply such deficiencies, &c. The message being read in the usual way, the same was, on the motion of lord Grenville, ordered to be taken into consideration to-morrow, and the lords summoned thereon.

AFFAIRS OF INDIA——RECAL OF SIR G. BARLOW.
Lord Mintoseeing a noble earl in his place (Westmoreland), begged leave to address a few observations to their lordships, for the purpose of explaining and rectifying a mistake which he had made, inadvertently, yesterday, for want of proper information at the moment. What he alluded to, was his statement in the conversation which took place between him and the noble earl, on the subject of the India Papers he had moved for—"that there had been no correspondence between the Board of Controul and the Court of Directors, on the topic of vacating the present Commission of the Government General in Bengal, after that proceeding had taken place." It happened, however, and which had since come to his knowledge, that some correspondence had taken place between those officers, after the circumstance alluded to had occurred; but he felt it incumbent on him to observe, that those communications were of a nature involving such particular points and considerations, that he resist Any motion tending to their public expo-
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sure, unless very clear, and very strong grounds indeed, should be laid for the propriety or expediency of such a production. Of this, he thought proper to apprise the noble viscount, on whose behalf he imagined the noble earl opposite to him came forward on the occasion. In the course of that morning, he had understood, he observed, it was intended to move for the production of those papers.
The Earl of Westmorelandshortly stated that his noble friend (lord Melville) intending to postpone the motion he had given notice of on Friday,to another day, he would therefore move to discharge the order for summoning their lordships for Friday next, in order to renew the same for Tuesday next.
Lord Mintohad no objection to the proceeding, but expressed his wish to know, whether it was the intention of the noble viscount to move for the papers he had adverted to? To this query, the earl of Westmoreland answered in the affirmative. The order was then discharged, and a similar order made for summoning their lordships on Tuesday
next.