Sitting of 24 February 1806

MINUTES.
Lord Temple, lord W. Russell, lord Ossulston, lord R. Spencer, lord Morpeth, Mr. Windham, Mr. Calcraft, and Mr. Erskine, took the oaths and their seats.—Mr. Whitbread moved, that lord Temple, lord R. Spencer, and Mr. Calcraft, be added to the committee appointed to prepare articles of impeachment against lord viscount Melville. Ordered.—On the motion of Mr. Calcraft, the following new writs were ordered to be issued, viz. for the borough of Inniskillen, in the room of sir W. Burroughs, who, since his election, had accepted the office of one of the judges in the supreme court, at Bengal; for the borough of Plymouth, in the room,of P. Langmead, esq. who had accepted the office of steward of his majesty's manor of East Hendred; and for the borough of Portarlington, in the room of T. Tyrwhitt, esq. who had accepted the office of steward of his majesty's Chiltern Hundreds.—Lord Henry Petty moved, that there be laid before the house an account of all offices granted in reversion in England, stating the nature of each office, the date of the grant, and the period of time for which it was granted,—Mr. Rose

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observed, that a return of this nature had been lately made, and therefore that the account need only be called for from the date of the last return. He had no objection, however, to the motion. The motion was then put and carried, without any amendment.—His lordship then moved, "that an account of all offices granted in reversion in Scotland, with the nature of each office, the date of the grant, and the period for which it was granted, should be laid before the house." Ordered. He made a similar motion for Ireland, which was also agreed to.—Lord Henry Petty moved, that there be laid before the house an account of the increase or diminution, between the 1st of Jan. 1805, and the 1st of Jan. 1806, of the salaries, emoluments, and expences of all offices in England. Ordered. He then moved for a similar account with respect to Ireland, which was also ordered.—Lord H. Petty brought down the following message from his majesty: "G. R His majesty, taking notice that by the act of parliament for allowing an annuity to earl St. Vincent, that annuity is limited to the earl and his two heirs male; and, being desirous that it should be further extended, recommends this object to the consideration of that house." On the motion of lord H. Petty, his majesty's message was ordered to be referred to a committee of the whole house on Thursday next.

AFFAIRS OF INDIA.
Mr. Francisrose, in compliance with a habit which had of late prevailed in the house, to give notice of a motion which he intended to bring forward. This habit, he observed, which rendered a previous notice necessary when a motion of importance, or one which was likely to meet with opposition, was to be proposed, had certainly not always prevailed there. But however, that he might not be deficient in any point of form, which had been deemed proper by the house, he now gave notice that to-morrow he would move for a paper relative to the finances of the East-India company. This motion would be founded on a question, and it depended on the manner in which that question should be answered, whether or not he should bring it forward at all. In case, however, it should be necessary, he hoped that this would be considered as a sufficient notice.

LORD ELLENBOROUGH'S SEAT IN THE CABINET.
Mr. Spencer Stanhoperose to give notice of a motion which he intended
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to submit to the house on Monday next, relative to the situation which the lord chief justice of the king's bench at present occupied in the cabinet.
Mr. Secretary Foxwished that the hon. member would state more explicitly the nature of his motion.
Mr. S. Stanhopereplied, that he had not as yet framed it, so as to be able at present to be more explicit.

REGIMENTAL COURTS MARTIAL.
The Secretary at War(General Fitzpatrick) observed, that he had last session given notice of a motion respecting the military justice of this kingdom. As this was, in his estimation, a matter of the highest importance, he had always been anxious to have it brought forward as soon as possible. But peculiar circumstances had prevented him from pressing it at the commencement of the present session, as he once intended to have done. At a later period, an event had occurred which rendered it necessary for him to postpone it still farther. Since that event, other circumstances had occurred, which induced him to abstain altogether for the present from urging his proposed motion; for the alteration which had taken place with respect to those by whom the affairs of the army were to be managed, and in his majesty's government in general, afforded well-grounded hopes that the defects of which he complained would be remedied by the executive power. With these sentiments, he thought it would be quite unnecessary for him to make these defects at present the subject of parliamentary investigation. Amendment was undoubtedly requisite in the points to which he intended to have directed the attention, of the house; but, for the reasons above stated, he would beg leave to wave his motion.

SINKING FUND.
Mr. Alderman Curtisrose, and begged to ask a question of the noble lord, whom he then saw in his place, relative to a report which had gone abroad on a very important subject. It was by no means his intention to interfere with, or ask any questions relative to taxes; but he hoped there was nothing improper or irregular in requesting the noble lord to say, whether he had applied to the governor and directors of the bank, for information relative to appropriating a certain portion of the sinking fund towards payment of the interest of the new loan? Such a report was in circulation, and had occasioned considerable alarm and uneasiness

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in the public mind. He hoped, therefore, the noble lord would excuse his troubling him for an answer to what he had taken the liberty to ask.
Lord Henry Pettysaid, he was extremely happy in having an opportunity of assuring the worthy alderman, and the public, that there was no foundation whatever for the report he had heard on that subject.

IRISH FIRST FRUITS BILL.
Dr. Duigenanrose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill relative to the first fruits in Ireland, and the regulation of Dr. Boulton's charity. This was a fund which had been left about 50 years ago by Dr. Boulton, archbishop of Armagh, to assist in maintaining the poorer clergy. The fund had of late very much increased. The object of the present bill was merely to enable the trustees in cases where the incomes of curates, &c. were below 100/. a year, to raise them to that sum from this fund, as far as it would go. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill to amend the act of the 29th of George II., relative to the first fruits in Ireland, and for the better management of Dr. Boulton's charity. This motion had been made last session, but had from some accidental circumstances been deferred till now.
Mr. Francisthought that this might be a very proper motion, but the reason why he now rose, was to suggest to the learned gent. that however unexceptionable the thing might be, it was desirable that he should wait till another gentleman was present, who might wish to attend to this bill through every stage of its progress. This was the practice of the house, and a practice founded not only in decorum but in use too, and might be peculiarly proper in this case, as the hon. gent. alluded to, would in all probability hold a very high situation in Ireland.
Dr. Duigenanreplied, that he was perfectly disposed to comply with this practice, but on the present occasion it was unnecessary, as the hon. gent. referred to, had last session an opportunity of examining this measure, and had then stated no objection to it.—Leave was then granted.

MIDDLESEX ELECTION.
Mr. Peter Moorebrought up a petition from certain freeholders of Middlesex, against the return of Mr. Mainwaring, on the ground that he was not properly qualified. The ground of qualification was the only point to which the petition went. A petition
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on this ground had before been presented; but at that time Mr. Mainwaring, by the decision of the committee, was not a member of the house, and of course the petition fell to the ground. The object now was to renew this petition. He thought it right to state, that this petition had been put into his hands only about ten minutes previous to the meeting of the house this day, and therefore he could say nothing more about it than that it was presented at the instance of certain gentlemen whom he understood to be freeholders of the county of Middlesex. The house would therefore consider whether it was to be received.
The Speakerobserved, that if the matter of the petition came within the election laws on the subject, then the hon. member had a right to insist that the petition should lie on the table. If there was any doubt on that point, the passage of the act that bore upon it ought to be read, and then the house might judge upon the case.
Mr Pereevalsaid, that from the first view of the thing he thought it impossible that this petition could be received, as it followed the decision of a committee, which had been appointed to try the merits of this election, before which this point might have regularly come. It would have been better to have brought forward this point there instead of going on from time to time harassing the house. He had not had such an opportunity of investigating the point of law on this subject as to enable him to give a positive opinion, but upon principle and analogy he thought it clear that it ought not to be received.
Mr. Secretary Foxadmitted that his first impression was, that this petition could not be received, but if it was possible to have it deferred till to-morrow, as he understood it was, it might be proper to do so, that the members might have time to consider the peculiar circumstances attaching to this case. The circumstances were these: a petition had been presented against the return of Mr. Mainwaring, and the committee had decided on the return generally, declaring that sir F. Burdett ought to have been returned. The question of qualification could not come in here. But a petition had been presented on the part of Mr. Mainwaring, sir F. Burdett had declined defending his seat, and the freeholders had come forward in his place. If sir Francis had persisted in his defence, the qualification might have been here brought forward, butt as the matter stood

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there was certainly cause for consideration, in order to remove difficulties, if they existed, and prevent their recurrence for the future. He hoped therefore that the matter would be allowed to stand till tomorrow.
Mr. Percevalcomplained of the manner in which the house had been used in this business. It was evidently the intention of the persons concerned to take the house by surprise, by deferring the presenting of this petition till the last day, and then only putting it into the hands of the hon, gent. a few minutes before the meeting of the house.
Mr. Secretary Foxsaid, that this affair depended not on the common law, but on a particular statute, and the question was, whether the qualification could have been properly tried till now?
The Speakerthen read the passage of the act, from which it appeared, that the freeholders who took up the cause in the place of any member, stood, to all intents and purposes, in his situation, so that the qualification might have been tried before.
Mr. Secretary Foxsaid that his doubts were removed.
Mr. Mainwaringcontended, that this petition could not be admitted on this ground, namely, that it was a petition to renew a petition that had been presented last session, which was not now renewable; because, in all cases of this nature, such a petition for a renewal must be presented four clays after the commencement of the session.
The Speakerobserved, that the hon. gent. was perfectly correct in his remark. It was the duty of every gentleman who presented a petition, to make himself master of the contents, in order that he might explain them to the house; he therefore requested the hon. gent. would have the goodness to state, whether or not this was a petition for the renewal of a former petition.
Mr. Moorereplied, that he believed he might take upon himself to say, that it was a petition for the renewal of a former petition.—On which the Speaker declared, that the rule of the house was perfectly clear, which rendered any such petition inadmissible.

CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX
Lord Eldon,on perceiving a noble marquis in his place, rose, and called the attention of the house generally to the situation in which the case of the above judicial character stood before their lordships. The affair was one, in every point of view, public as well as private, of the highest importance, and it was highly proper that the house should come to some determination upon the case. He therefore requested to know of that noble marquis, whether he intended to move for any proceeding relative to the attendance or examination of witnesses in the case of Mr. justice Fox?
The Marquis of Abercornsaid, it must

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be in the recollection of several of their lordships, that so early as on the first day of the session, he had called the attention of the house to the business alluded to. It was his wish, that as little delay as possible should take place with respect to the proceedings upon the case. The spring assizes in Ireland were to take place this year somewhat earlier than they did last year, in which case their attendance in London might be proportionably earlier, a week or ten days at least. It was his intention to move, that certain witnesses be ordered to attend on the 28th of April. His lordship presented a list of a number of witnesses, who, he regularly moved, should be ordered to attend at the bar of that house on the 28th day of April next.—As the lord chancellor was reading the motion,
Lord Grenvilleentered the house, and, on the question being put, his lordship rose, and observed, he spoke under the disadvantage of not having heard what transpired on the subject previous to the motion; but it struck him most forcibly, that, on a subject of such great and various importance as that which the case of Mr. justice Fox involved, some time should be allowed, not only as it respected himself, but other noble lords, who wished to deliver their opinions, for the consideration of the subject. He was then quite unprepared to give a decided opinion as to what was proposed. He submitted, therefore, whether it would not be better to withdraw the motion? but, shortly after, he moved that the farther consideration of this motion be adjourned to this day se'nnight.—This, on the question being so put, was agreed to by their lordships.

EARL ST. VINCENT.
Lord Grenvillepresented a message from his majesty, purporting that, by the act of parliament for granting an annuity to the earl of St. Vincent, that annuity was limited to the two next heirs male of his body, and desiring the house to take the further extension of the same into their consideration.—The message having been read, lord Hawkesbury asked. across the table, if any motion was intended? Lord Grenville answered in the affirmative, and observed that, in granting the annuity to lord St. Vincent, it had been originally intended, as was usual in similar cases, to extend the grant to the two next successors to the title. It happened, however, that, by the enacting words of the act, the annuity
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was limited to the two next heirs male of the body of lord St. Vincent. The present message, therefore, had not for its object to confer any additional mark of royal favour on lord St. Vincent, but merely to carry into effect what was undoubtedly the original intent of the act to which he had alluded. A bill to this effect would, in due time, come before the house, when their lordships would have an opportunity of considering the subject. He concluded, by moving, in the usual form, an address to his majesty, in answer to his majesty's most gracious massage, which was agreed to.

LORD ELLENBOROUGH'S SEAT IN THE CABINET.
The Earl of Bristol,on seeing the noble lord at the head of the treasury in his place, rose, and, in a very low tone of voice, addressed a few observations to his lordship; the purport of these appeared to be, a wish from the noble earl to be informed respecting a point which, he conceived, had made a deep impression on the public mind, and which was certainly a topic of great constitutional importance. He alluded to what was generally stated, that the present lord chief justice of the king's bench constituted one of his majesty's cabinet ministers. He begged an answer from the noble lord as to the fact.
Lord Grenvillesaid, he felt anxious to give as explicit and satisfactory an answer as was in his power, to the question of the noble earl. He was at a loss to see how the appointment alluded to by the noble earl, was unconstitutional and unprecedented. He believed, that ever since the privy council existed, or even since there existed such a station as that of lord chief justice, the learned lord who filled that station at the time was likewise invariably one of his majesty's privy council. Indeed, the lord chief justice the king's bench was frequently summoned to attend the council on matters of the highest moment; and he was, not only responsible for the advice he actually gave, but was also liable for any omission in giving his advice. His lordship must,think it unnecessary to observe, that what was generally or usually called "the Cabinet," was, under that appellation and description, unknown to the constitution; indeed, it should rather be considered as a committee of the privy council that was more frequently called upon by his majesty for advice. Even that committee the lord chief justice of the land had often been summoned to attend;

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and if at all times it appeared, that the lord chief justice was a member of his majesty's privy council, and that he was often called upon for advice by that committee of the privy council, commonly known by the name of the "cabinet," he could not think that it trenched in the least upon the spirit or the letter of the constitution, that be who, was always of the privy council, and who was frequently consulted by his majesty's more immediate advisers, should be made an habitual or constant member of the committee of the privy council, which he had considered the cabinet to be; more especially when the person who filled that exalted station was, in the present case, a man from whose vigour of intellect, from whose extent of capacity, and from whose comprehension and depth of knowledge, the administration of his majesty's government was sure to receive the uniform assistance of such various lights. When he was honoured with his majesty's orders to form an administration, he anxiously looked out for such distinguished Characters; and, it any exception was made to the advice he presumed to offer to his majesty on that very important business, he held himself responsible for any error or mischief with which it might be deemed chargeable. With regard to the appointment being unconstitutional and unprecedented, he should now only observe, that he believed it had the sanction of the example of lord Hardwicke, and certain he was it had the sanction of the example of lord Mansfield. The more such a question was discussed, the less, he trusted, it would be found liable to the objections insinuated by the noble earl.
The Earl of Bristolcould not help thinking the appointment highly objectionable, notwithstanding the explanation of the noble lord. To him it appeared repugnant to the constitution, and incompatible with the due administration of justice; and, on these grounds, he should certainly submit it to the consideration of the house on Monday next; for which day it was ordered that their lordships be summoned to attend.

WITNESSES' INDEMNITY BILL.
Lord Eldonwent over some of his former arguments against this bill, comparing it with the indemnity bill brought into the house in the year 1742, and observing, that such a bill having now been introduced, it was essential, in his opinion, that their lordships should ascertain what had been done
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in similar cases or former occasions. He therefore moved for the appointment of a committee to search for precedents respecting bills to enable witnesses, in cases of accusation, to give evidence at the bar of the house, by indemnifying them from criminal prosecutions or civil suits, or either of them.
Lord Hollandsaid, he did not wish to oppose the motion of the noble and learned lord, but he was convinced that on the search being made, which the noble and learned lord desired, it would be found that the present bill was not by any means, as the noble and learned lord would have it understood, a fac-simile of that introduced in 1742; but, on the contrary, wholly dissimilar. He could not help, at the same time, thinking it unfair to argue the bill at the present moment, when it was not regularly before the house.
Lord Eldonin explanation, contended, that he had never said that the present bill was a fac-simile of that of 1742; but that they must both be argued on the same principle.—The motion for a committee to search for precedents was agreed to.