Sitting of 4 February 1806

MINUTES.
Mr. Wilberforcepresented a petition from the insolvent debtors confined in the county gaol of York., Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Johnson, from the chief secretary's office, in Ireland, presented the report of the commissioners appointed to examine the expenditure of the paving board, of the city of Dublin. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. W. Dickinson presented the first report of the commissioners appointed by his majesty to revise and digest the civil affairs of the navy. Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—Mr. Dickinson presented an estimate of the debt of his majesty's navy as it stood on the 31st of December 1805; and also, an estimate of the money that will be wanted for the transport service; for the establishments and hospitals relating to his majesty's sick and wounded seamen at home and

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abroad, and for the maintenance of prisoners of war in health and sickness at home and abroad, in the year 1806.

MALT DUTY BILL.
The house having resolved itself into a committee on the bill for continuing the duties on land, malt, sugar, snuff, and tobacco;
Mr. Harrisonwished to know, whether this bill contained a clause of appeal from the summary jurisdiction of magistrates, in matters of penalty, to the courts of quarter session? In the malting counties, he observed, the persons dealing in that article, were under severe hardships, in consequence of their barley being often sweated by drippings and oozings of snow and rain, and also by other accidents, which were frequently taken or pretended by the exciseman to be taken, for illegal wetting; and this belief, sworn before the magistrates, subjected them to the heavy penalty of 200 l. for each offence. If a clause of appeal, therefore, had hitherto been omitted, under these circumstances, it was necessary that the defect should be supplied.
Mr. S. Bournereplied, that this bill was exactly in the same words as the bill of last year; but he was not aware, at present, of any objection to such a clause as that proposed; and he added, that, should it not, upon consideration, prove objectionable, a clause to that effect would be prepared by to-morrow.
Mr. Pattesonsupported the objections made by the hon. gent.; observing, that the maltster was completely under the lash of the exciseman, who had the penalty inflicted by the magistrate, if he only swore that be believed the malt to have been wetted.
Mr. Fullerobserved, that in all justice there ought to be an appeal to the quarter sessions. The hardships sustained in the malt counties were intolerably severe; and people hying at a great distance were often under the necessity of paying the penalty, sooner than be at the trouble and expense of coming up to London to seek for redress. He loudly complained of sending visitors to inspect the malt, who had an interest in inflicting penalties; and thought the excise board ought to employ proper officers for that purpose.
Mr. Rosesaid, that the officers of excise had no interest whatever in the penalty inflicted.
Mr. Pattesoninsisted, that they had a considerable interest in the amount of such penalties as 200 l. He knew himself, he
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said; of an instance, where an information against a person who employed 40 workmen, without ever going before the magistrates, was sent up to the exchequer, and the person sent to prison, upon the infliction of two penalties of 200 l. each. He afterwards paid these tines, and immediately discharged his 40 servants, preferring to relinquish the business, sooner than be liable to so much severity and injustice.
Mr. Roseasserted, that the dealers in malt were not under the lash of the excise-men, but of the magistrates. There was no branch of the revenue in which there were so many frauds, and so difficult to be detected.
The Attorney-Generalobserved, that though some hardships might have beets experienced by particular individuals, yet it was well known that the very circumstance now complained of was a most abundant source of frauds upon the revenue. The pretences of snow, rain, and other accidents, seldom turned out, upon examination, to be any other than frauds attempted on the revenue. He believed he recollected the case alluded to by the hon. gent., and, if he recollected right, the party was only subjected to one mitigated penalty; as it appeared that the fraud was attempted by a servant, without the apparent privity of the master. It was, however, rather singular, that the servant should wantonly, and of his own accord, have ventured on a fraud, in which, as a servant, he could have had fib interest. Upon the whole, it seldom failed to be made out to the satisfaction of juries, that what was called sweating, turned out to be an actual wetting of the malt; but, at the same time, he was ready to admit, that it might be right for the parties to have the power of appeal.—The report was ordered to be received to-morrow.

AUDITORSHIP OF THE EXCHEQUER.
Mr. Foxpursuant to the notice which he had yesterday given, rose to submit his motion to the house, for leave to bring in a bill to enable a person holding the office of auditor of the exchequer to hold also the office of a commissioner of the treasury. The object of his bill was to legalise the holding of these two appointments, by enabling the auditor to appoint a deputy for discharging the duties of that office. He had before stated, that he entertained no doubt himself on the subject. Yet, as possibly other gentlemen might not feel as he did, it was the wish of the noble

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lord concerned, that nothing should be withheld from the house, but that all the circumstances connected with the transaction should be before the public. But as the idea was gone abroad, that the auditor of the exchequer was a check upon the lords of the treasury, he thought it right to advert to that circumstance. The fact was, that he was not a check upon them, and it was absurd to suppose, that any officer whose appointment, was in the gift of the lords of the treasury could be any check upon them. He should hope, therefore, that no difficulty would be felt in complying with this measure. Nobody, he thought, would be of opinion that the office should be given up by the noble lord. and on that account he trusted that no objection would be felt to the bill. He had yesterday stared the case of lord Halifax in the reign of George I. In that case lord Halifax had given the auditorship nominally to his brother, whilst he virtually continued in the enjoyment of it himself. The noble lord might, in the present instance, act upon that precedent, but he was better pleased that the, transaction should wholly rest on legislative grounds. He therefore begged leave "to move for leave to bring in a bill for removing certain doubts respecting the appointment of any person holding the office of auditor of the exchequer to the office of one of the commissioners of the treasury." With respect to the doubts, when they should come to the preamble of the bill, that expression might be struck out, if gentlemen should be of opinion that no doubts existed.
Mr. Rosedeclared, that no man in that house could be less disposed than himself to throw any impediments in the way of the noble lord's appointment to the office in question: on the contrary, it gave him the highest satisfaction, when he understood the appointment was to take place, because he wits sure it would be a most efficient appointment: but with respect to the duties of that situation which the noble lord already held, and those of the situation to which he was recently appointed, no two offices on earth, in his opinion, could be more incompatible, nor could any thing be more incongruous with the spirit and meaning of the law which settled the usages of the treasury, than that the auditor of exchequer, avowedly and obviously appointed for the purpose of check and controul over the lords of the treasury, and other officers connected there
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with, to prevent the improper issue of public money, should hold an office in which he was to be the check and controul upon himself. The statute of the 9th of William III. passed for the very purpose of recognising and establishing the ancient course of proceedings in the exchequer, enacts, that no money shall be issued from the exchequer, even by the order of a lord of the treasury, for any purpose whatever, unless such order be signed by the auditor of the exchequer, for without his signature such an order would be a mere nullity. This had been the practice in his own day, and he had witnessed instances where such controul had the most salutary effect, in preventing the improper issues of money. It bad been the uniform practice of modern times, to separate the offices of lord of the treasury and auditor of the exchequer, and this was the first attempt he had ever witnessed to conjoin them. The case of lord Halifax, he, by no means, conceived to bear out the principle. Lord Halifax was first lord of the treasury, and chancellor of the exchequer, when the auditorship became vacant. He did not then take the office to himself, but gave it to his brother. When afterwards he resigned his former offices, he sat down with the auditorship of the exchequer. As to the privilege of appointing a deputy, to exercise the controul over the very person who appointed him, and who also might dismiss him at pleasure, he should be glad to know, how the check required by the statute of William in this case could be obtained, as it was not very probable, that a deputy, so appointed, would be very strict under such circumstances. With respect to the case of Mr. Pelham, he was appointed a lord of the treasury in 1743, and was not appointed to the auditorship of the exchequer till eight years afterwards, and then did not hold both offices together. The proposed bill, instead of removing any doubts upon the subject, for in fact none existed, nor could any thing be more clear and definite than the established regulations on this head, proposed to alter the whole course of the exchequer; and therefore it ought not to pass under any other title than as a bill to alter the course of the exchequer, and to enable the noble lord to hold two offices totally opposite and incompatible in their nature.
Mr. C. W. Wynnecombated the arguments of the last speaker, from a compa

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rison of the different clauses of the act of parliament, and maintained that the auditor of the exchequer was not meant to be a check on the first lord of the treasury, but to see that the several sums granted were applied to the particular services for which they were voted. As to the idea, that the auditor of the exchequer could never be a proper check on the first lord of the treasury, if the first lord of the treasury were also to hold the office of auditor, and to be allowed, as proposed by the present bill, to discharge the duties of it by deputy, he declared that he could see no more ground for that supposition in the case of a deputy, than where, as in the precedents alluded to, the person to act as auditor was appointed by the first lord of the treasury. Whatever evils could be supposed to arise out of the mode now proposed, must, he presumed to think, have been far greater under the former practice. At all events, if there was any thing wrong in the two offices remaining really though not ostensibly in the same person, no man, he hoped, would dispute that it was better, and more honourable, that such arrangement should take place openly and fairly, and with the approbation of parliament. The constitution of the exchequer, too, he begged it to be observed, had undergone a considerable alteration since the time of its first establishment. The auditor at that time derived a principal part, if not the whole, of the emoluments of his office from a per centage on the issues from the exchequer, thereby giving him an interest in the amount of such issues. Now, he was remunerated by a salary.
The Attorney-Generaldeclared that nothing could be farther from his wish than to throw unnecessary impediments in the way of the present bill. Of all the proposed appointments of which he had heard, the one now alluded to, was that which gave him most pleasure; and if what he had to say on the subject should induce the noble lord to take another office, he should feel very serious concern from the circumstance. He wished that such steps should be taken in the matter as should forward it as far as the hon. mover could expect the business to proceed this night, and that gentlemen should take till to-morrow to consider what would be the most effectual mode of proceeding Afterwards. He agreed entirely with the hon. gent. opposite, that it was far better to proceed openly, under the sanction of ail act of
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parliament, than in a clandestine manner, and by an artificial transfer of the office. But he submitted, that, in place of a deputy to be named by the auditor himself, the preferable mode of proceeding would be that parliament should, nominatim, appoint a legal trustee to act for the noble lord, who, of course, would be responsible for the faithful discharge of his office.
Mr. Foxsaid, that, for his own part, he could see no objection, at this moment, to the arrangement proposed by the hon. and learned gent. He was aware that it was not orderly in him to say that he wished to consult another person out of the house on what passed in that house. He trusted, however, to be excused for expressing a desire to submit the suggestion of the learned gent. to his noble friend before he entirely acquiesced in it. He at the same time submitted, as it would be completely competent to alter the bill in the committee, agreeably to the suggestion of the learned gent., if his idea should be afar proved of, that, to save time, the bill should be read a first and second time that night.
Mr. Rosedeclared, that his objections would he done away by the appointment of a trustee under responsibility.—The question was then put, and leave given to bring in the bill; Mr. Fox and Mr. Williams Wynne being ordered to prepare it. Mr. Fox then brought it up, and it was read a first and second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.

CONTINENTAL WAR.
On the order for summoning their lordships for this day being read,
Lord Mulgravesaid, he had hoped when he gave his notice for this day, that the arrangements in contemplation would have been completed, so as to have ensured a full attendance of their lordships, it having been his intention to enter into an explanation, respecting several points connected with the papers which he had laid upon the table, at the same time that he presented to their lordships, by his majesty's command, several other documents upon the subject of the late continental war. He had brought down the papers to which he alluded, and he could not let tins opportunity slip, of giving some explanation to their lordships, upon certain points
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which they involved. Had it been upon any ordinary occasion that the treaties were presented to the house, it would have been sufficient to have left them to speak for themselves. Their lordships would, in perusing them, have found that the first object of his majesty's government had been, to form a well-arranged plan, which, in its execution, might afford every reasonable prospect of effecting the deliverance of Europe; the next object was, that those means might be provided, which might give effect to the negociation, which was at that period expected to be carried on, or, in the event of that negociation terminating in war, might enable the allies to pursue hostilities with proportionate energy and vigour. They would have seen by these treaties, that 500,000 men were to have been brought into the field, 320,000 by Austria, and 180,000 by Russia, a number certainly amply sufficient, according to every calculation, for the purposes of carrying into effect those objects which it was sought to attain. It had been a matter of calculation, what number of troops France could have brought to act upon a certain point, in a given time, and what number of Austrian and Russian troops would be at that point by the time specified. He received official returns, by which it appeared, that 320,000 Austrians, and 180,000 Russians, were actually in the field, or on their march. The Russian troops in fact marched according to their engagement, and arrived at their destination, and were ready to take the field, two days earlier than the time specified for their reaching the point where they were to effect a junction with their Austrian allies. The plan thus prepared, the arrangements thus made, were unfortunately deranged by the precipitancy of Austria. The deviation of Austria from the plan agreed upon was not slight and trivial, but it was a complete and entire deviation, and to this must be attributed all the calamitous consequences that ensued. The object of this country was, either to promote a negociation for a general peace, upon a permanent basis, consistent with the welfare and security of Europe, or to establish an armed negociation, with a view of putting a period to the usurpations and encroachments of France; and, if war was the result, to support that war by means which, according to all human calculation, were adequate to the effect the object proposed.

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Austria had till the end of the year 1805, to negotiate, as the subsidies from this country were not payable, if she commenced hostilities before the end of the year. Unfortunately, however, from her precipitancy in sending forward her troops, the melancholy events of the campaign, and the calamitous day of Austerlitz, had resulted. It was the occurrence of these unfortunate events that had induced his majesty's ministers to obtain his majesty's commands, to lay before parliament every document that could in any degree elucidate the subject, or explain any of the points connected with the treaties, which he had, on a former day, laid upon the table. They had done this, in order that their conduct might be placed in that point of view, in which they wished it to be considered, convinced as they were, that it would be found free from the slightest blame, on account of the recent unfortunate events on the continent. He could not help also again expressing his anxiety that the character of that illustrious statesman, whose loss they now deplored, should be cleared from the imputations, which, on account of those events, had been so unjustly cast upon it. In attributing those events to the precipitancy of the emperor of Austria, and his deviation from the plan arranged by the allies, he must, at the same time, deprecate any imputations being thrown upon that monarch on account of his signing an armistice, and subsequently a treaty of peace with France. It was easy for those who were at a distance from the scene of action, to condemn the conduct of that monarch; but it should be recollected, that he did and suffered much for the common cause; that he gave up his capital to the enemy, and fought in person against them. If after this he was induced by the calamitous circumstances that ensued to give way and make peace with France, it should rather be lamented as an unfortunate circumstance than be made the subject of condemnation. As some noble lords had come into the house since he had risen, whom hey to hear his explanation, he would shortly recapitulate. He then briefly repeated his former statements, adding, that the negotiations between Austria and France, it was known, must be broken off in consequence of the annexation of Genoa to France, and that it was expected that when hostilities commenced, Austria would have acted upon the de-
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fensive in Germany and offensively Italy. He had observed on a former evening, that certain articles of the treaty with Russia were withheld, he repeated, that no other motive had induced his majesty's ministers to withhold them than a desire that no injury might result to certain continental powers from the publication of the recitals contained in those articles. This was their only motive, as those who were about to succeed them would soon be enabled to judge, from an inspection of the documents themselves. He was anxious that the subject to which the papers on the table, and those he was about to present, referred, should be fully and amply discussed. In the result of that discussion he had the utmost confidence; and he would repeat what he had Said on a former evening, with reference to that subject and the conduct of his colleagues and himself, that there was no measure which he could now wish had been taken, that had been omitted, nor any measure adopted, which he would now wish to retract.—The noble lord concluded by inttmating his majesty's commands to present certain papers; which, on his lordship's motion, were ordered to lie on the table. They consisted of extracts and dispatches from lord G. L. Gower and sir Arthur Paget to lord Mulgrave, the declaration of Austria, and some other papers, which will be found in the Appendix.