Sitting of 24 December 1806

MINUTES.
On the motion of lord Howick, it was ordered that the house should, at its rising, adjourn to Monday the 29th instant.—On the motion of Mr. Hobhouse, the Election Trial bill was read a third time, and passed.—On the motion of Mr. Free-mantle, the order for the consideration of the Saltash Election petition, was postponed from Tuesday 13th to Tuesday 27th Jan. on the ground that the evidence would not be in readiness till that day.—Admiral Markham moved, that the Navy Estimates for 1807, be laid before the house.—The secretary at war and Mr. Calcraft made similar motions with respect to the Army and Ordnance Estimates; and Mr. Vansittart moved, that an humble address be presented to his majesty, requesting him to direct the said Estimates to be laid before the house. Ordered.

GALWAY ELECTION WRIT.
On the motion of lord Howick, the order for the attendance of the deputy clerk of the crown, with the return for the county of Galway, was read. The deputy clerk was in attendance, and the return was read. It stated that the sheriff, in obedience to his majesty's, writ, had proceeded in due time to the poll, and proceeded with all due diligence, it being kept open seven hours in each day: but that on the 15th of December, the day before which the return should have been made; the suffrages of a great number of freeholders remained still un-
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collected. The clerk of the crown notified at the same time, that a second return had been received this day, dated 17th of December. The substance of this return was, that, the suffrages of all the freeholders of the county of Galway being collected, Mr. D. B. Daly, and Mr. Martin, were duly elected. It was ordered that these returns should be entered on the books.
Lord Howicksaid, it was his intention to have followed up the substantiation of the default of the sheriff in not having made the return by the day when it was required, with a motion that he should be ordered to attend at the bar to abide the judgement of the house. But in consideration of the precedent stated by a right hon. gent. (Mr. Corry) last night, and from there being no room to suppose that the sheriff had been wilfully negligent of his duty, he should wave that proceeding, and rest satisfied with the real return.
Mr. Corrywas happy that his recollection had tended to save the house and the sheriff the pain of misplaced severity. But he hoped the Irish gentlemen would, in the course of the present session, consider the propriety of amending the Irish election laws in this and many other particulars.

SALARY OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE WAYS AND MEANS.
Mr. Biddulph rose, pursuant to, notice, to make his promised motion, relative to the Salary of the Chairman of the Ways and Means. This salary, in his opinion, might be saved to the public. As he considered it as of extreme moment that the motion which he was now to make in furtherance of that economy which had been so warmly recommended in his majesty's speech, should not suffer from any thing connected with the person by whom it was brought forward, he disclaimed all intention of hostility to his majesty's ministers; he was fully sensible of their great talents, the purity of their motives, and their resolution to redeem the pledges of economy which they had given. If this had not been their intention, he was persuaded that the passage to which he alluded would not have been inserted in his majesty's speech. He admired the ability of ministers, and particularly of the noble lord (Howick) who had lately made a speech so distinguished for its eloquence, and so well calculated to make the deepest impression. The measure which he had to recommend, if carried into execution, would be attended with the happiest effects. As to the individual who was said to be named to the situation of chair-

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man of the committee of Ways and Means, (Mr. Hobhouse) he certainly meant nothing personal against him. He had known him from his earliest years, had the greatest respect for him, and he knew too well the liberality of his mind, to doubt that he would give him credit for having the public good only in view. He would now come more immediately to the subject. He was sensible that this would appear rather too early a period for such a motion, but then it was proper to bring it forward before the chairman had entered on his duties. His attention had been particularly called to the subject by the paternal expressions in his majesty's speech, which had made the deepest impression on every one who heard them, and which, if not acted upon, might subject them to the charge of criminality. He would read the passage to which he alluded. The hon. gent. then read that part of the speech which lamented the necessity of the public burthens, and recommended economy. He thought this was an instance in which the economy recommended in his majesty's speech might be well put in practice. No man should, in his opinion, be paid for his duty in the house of commons, with the exception only of the person who filled the chair, whose salary was meant to support the dignity of the house, as well as to reward his labours. But the situation of chairman of the Ways and Means was one of a different nature. There was no reason, he apprehended, why some of the other officers paid by government should not take the duty on themselves. He asked the candour of the house, whether some of the junior lords of the treasury might not discharge it? It might be said, that their minds would be too much harassed, and their bodies too much fatigued with other duties, to undertake this one. But he understood that this could not be the case, as their duties consisted only in signing a few papers: but at all events, there were some whose duties were not heavy. An objection might be made, that this was an unusual mode of proceeding. His answer was, that these were unusual times; that the necessities of the public were unusual, and that this would justify them in receding from common forms. Another objection might be taken from the trifling saving that would thus be made to the public. His answer was, that the principle was not trifling, as it would convince the country, that the house was seriously resolved to set about plans of economy. It was necessary
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that there should be public burthens at the present moment, but it was proper that those burthens should be rendered as light as possible. He was convinced from reflection, and the conversation of sensible people, that a radical change of measures was absolutely necessary to the salvation of the country. A rigid economy would be that radical change. It had not yet been tried, and he recommended it as the first and easiest expedient. The hon. gent. concluded by moving this resolution: "That the "assignment of a salary to any member of "the house as, chairman of the committee "of Ways and Means, is unnecessary, and, "in the present circumstances of the "country, inexpedient."—It was some time before the motion was seconded. A member having however given it that formal claim to consideration,
Lord Howickrose. He thanked his hon. friend for the favourable sentiments he entertained of his majesty's ministers, who, he assured him, were determined to practise the economy recommended in his majesty's speech. He exceedingly regretted, however, that the motion of his hon. friend was of such a sort as placed him under the necessity of appearing to resist that disposition, which had been manifested by his majesty, with regard to public economy. He felt as strongly as his hon. friend, or as any one, the necessity of economy, and of confining within the narrowest possible limits the supplies for those efforts which were now more than ever requisite. But feeling the obligation imposed by the pledges which had been given, he was sure that it was not his majesty's intention to limit an expence which was necessary for the due execution of a laborious and indispensable duty. This was not one of the points to which that economy could be properly applied. His hon. friend had fallen into two mistakes. He had alluded to a person, as appointed to this duty, for which, indeed, none could be better qualified. But the fact was, that no such appointment had been made. It was only when the house was in a particular committee, and when a call was made for such a person, that the appointment of a chairman took place. There had as yet been no such committee, nor had there been any such call. His hon. friend had fallen into another mistake. No salary was at present fixed for the place. Since the revolution, till of late years, there had been a salary attached to it, which had been paid out of the civil list. But the

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house thinking it inconsistent with their privileges, that the person who discharged a duty in which they were particularly concerned, should be paid in this manner, abolished the practice, and at the end of every session voted such a remuneration as to them seemed proper. If then his hon. friend had any objection to this, it would come better at the end of the session, when the vote of remuneration should be proposed. But what were the duties of this office? It was necessary that the person who held it, should be prepared with a full knowledge of the business of the house, and all its public duties, and that he should be acquainted with, and explain its orders when in a committee. He was bound to attend from the sitting of the house to its rising; all which would require time, attention, ability, and a great deal of personal labour. In every respect his hon. friend (Mr. Hobhouse) was well qualified; and certainly, whoever performed the duty well, was entitled to some remuneration. But his hon. friend supposed that the duty might be performed by other officers of the crown, who had abundance of leisure for it. All he would say to that was, that if there were any offices, the duties of which were so trifling as he supposed, the proper mode would be to move for the abolition of those offices. If his hon. friend's resolution should be agreed to, the result would be, according to the proverb, that, "What was every body's business, would be nobody's business," and consequently, confusion and disorder would take place of that regular and orderly way in which the business of the house had hitherto been carried on. Though desirous of economy where it was practicable, he did not think this one of the cases where it would be well applied. At all events, the resolution ought not to be moved till the end of the session. He really did not see any necessity for saying any thing further on this subject. It was one on which the house might properly judge, without any long and tedious discussion. The noble lord concluded by moving, that the other orders of the day be now read.
Mr. Biddulphin reply, said he had not been aware that no salary was attached to this office. But even upon the ground that the remuneration was not voted till the end of the session, he did not think his resolution so ill-timed. If agreed to at the present moment, it would at least have the effect of removing every expectation of
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salary or remuneration. The noble lord said, that if there were any unnecessary offices, a motion might be made for abolishing them. But in that case, he should be told that duties were attached to those offices which must be performed. He considered this country as in the situation of a private person, whose circumstances rendered it necessary for him to reduce his establishment. This was a case that might happen to the public as well as to a private person. It was sufficient for him that he had called the attention of the house to this business. He had no hostility to ministers. He had been too much accustomed to see in them proofs of the most noble disinterestedness to conceive it possible that they could be changed. If honours and offices alone had been their ambition, many of them might have had them fifteen years ago. But as he had been returned by a set of enlightened constituents, who had public economy much at heart, he felt it his duty to submit this resolution to the house.—The motion was then put, and negatived without a division.

WESTMINSTER ELECTION PETITION.
Lord Folkestone,pursuant to notice, rose to move that the order for taking the Westminster Election petition into consideration on the 13th of January, should be discharged, for the purpose of postponing it to a future day. The circumstances on which this motion was grounded were these; he had presented the petition on the earliest possible day. In balloting for the petitions, the Westminster had come out of the glass the fourth, and consequently was appointed for the second day for considering Election petitions. Since that time, he understood that it was not supposed he would have presented it so soon, and the agents informed him that there was such a mass of evidence to be collected, as might naturally be supposed in such a city as Westminster, that they could not be ready by the time appointed. The noble lord hoped that the house would not be disposed to make the petitioner suffer from any mistake of his in presenting the petition, and concluded by moving, "That the order for considering the Westminster Election petition on the 13th of January, be discharged, and that it be fixed for the 24th of February."
Mr. Sheridansaid, that after the communication which he had had with the noble lord, he would not oppose his motion; but he did not yield from any weight in his lord-

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Ship's arguments, for these made against his own proposition. He said, that a great mass of evidence was to be produced, and the inference was, that it ought to be produced early, on account of the length of time which the business would occupy. All the witnesses were here; it was not necessary to. send for them to a distance, as in country cases. The parties ought to have considered before, what evidence they had to produce, and not now be coming to the house to gain time to hunt out more. But when his lordship placed the matter on the footing of a mistake of his own, he would not, out of compliment to him, or any other gentleman, move any opposition. He understood from him, that he had presented the petition earlier than the petitioners wished; but as to the observation about the balloting, if it had come out of the glass the fifth instead of the fourth, it would only have made a difference of three or four days; so that there was nothing in that argument But though the question was now respecting delay, he believed that the next notice of the noble lord would be, that we were to hear no more of this petition. They seemed to have employed very judicious counsel, who had, in considering the circumstances, advised them to delay it, and fix it for the very time when these counsel would be on the circuit. This would afford an excuse for further delay, which out of compliment to these judicious gentlemen, he could not of course oppose. He would take this occasion to advert to something that had fallen from a learned gentleman opposite (Mr. Perceval) on a former day, in his absence.—[Hear! hear! from Mr. Perceval.] He was happy to hear this challenge from the learned gentleman particularly as it was a proof that he continued in the same mind on this subject which was not his general practice. The learned gentleman had talked a great deal of his want of popularity, and had observed, with a degree of wit correspondent with its candour, that it was not till the government horses had been yoked to his car that he had been brought in. Now, though his majesty had thought him worthy to hold an office of trust and emolument, he was bold to think, whatever the learned gentleman and some few other clamorous persons might pretend to the contrary, that his claim to public support was not thereby lessened. There was a sort of report that he was about to take another office, namely,
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the Chiltern hundreds, for the purpose of vacating his seat [A laugh]. He had no objection to take that office, if the learned gent. also would take it, and bring his popularity to the test by facing him on the hustings in Covent-garden [A laugh].
Mr. Percevalsaid, that instead of forcing this matter forward on a former night, he had expressly abstained from agitating it, on the ground of the absence of the right hon. gent. The noble lord (H. Petty) had, however, ingeniously put into his mouth the expressions now brought forward by the right hon. gent., but he had disclaimed them. He had, however, no hesitation now, nor at any time, to answer for what he did say. The expression, the wit of which the right hon. gent. described as equal to its candour, arose from the accident of his having seen the right hon. gent. parading the streets in a sort of triumphal car, decorated with laurels—[a loud laugh]. The hon. gent.had said, that it was contrary to his practice to adhere to his opinions. That was an accusation that came rather oddly from the right hon. gent., and those who sat with him on the other side of the house. With respect to himself, he was not aware of any such deficiency in adhering to his opinions as the right hon. gent. imputed to him. Certainly his opinions on the subject now before the house had undergone no change, and he saw no reason to change them. With respect to the right hon. gent.'s challenge to meet him on the hustings in Covent Garden, he had to excuse himself, on the ground that he had constituents who had shewn him uniform favour since they had returned him to the first parliament he had sat in. These constituents he was attached to, and was unwilling to desert them for the ambition of representing any greater place. The right hon. gent. had at times spoken of a similar attachment, though he had afterwards found it so easy to get rid of it. At least, such was the amount of what was represented in the news-papers, in the right hon. gent.'s name. But, perhaps, what was, thus stated on the subject, was not authentic. It was easy to credit an excuse of that kind from the extravagancies contained in the speeches imputed to the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Sheridansaid, that when he stood for Westminster, it was with the full permission of the electors of Stafford [a laugh]. It was not, however, the severity of the learned gent.'s remarks that he complained

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of, but the prejudice they were calculated to cast on a contested election, on which the learned gent. himself might be called to sit as a judge. The triumphal car and the procession which had excited the spleen of the learned gent., was, he would venture to say, one of the most popular triumphs that had ever been witnessed in this or in any other city. [A laugh.]
Lord Folkestonesaid, that he had not been aware of the circumstance with respect to the circuit, and that it certainly would be necessary to accommodate the counsel.—The motion was then agreed to.