Sitting of 29 April 1806

MINUTES.
The house met at ten o'clock, pursuant to order, for the purpose of proceeding to Westminster-hall to prosecute the trial of lord Melville. The managers left the house first, and repaired to the place assigned them in the court, after which the members went out according to the alphabetical order of their several counties, beginning with the English counties and ending with those of Ireland. About four o'clock the house returned to its ordinary place of meeting, for the dispatch of business, as usual.—A message from the lords announced their assent to the Irish Bank Note bill, the Exchequer Bills bill, the Tea Duty bill, and the Irish Hearth Duty Repealing bill; and also that the lords had determined to proceed further in the trial of lord Melville the next morning at ten of the clock. The Speaker then took this opportunity of stating that he would, as he had done that day, attend punctually at ten o'clock the next day; that at a quarter past ten the serjeant at

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arms would be sent to clear the passages, and that at half past ten, the manager would go forth.—Lord H. Petty reminded the house, that he had given notice of motion on Friday, for leave to bring in bill for the better regulation of the office of receiver-general of customs, and took this opportunity of giving notice, that he should on the same day move for leave to bring in bills for better regulating the offices of receivers-general of excise, of stamps, and of the post-office, and the office of surveyor-general of woods and forests.—Mr. Meheux presented the Furruckabad papers moved for by Mr. Paull. Mr. Paull moved that they should be printed, and, at the same time, begged the house to observe the small bulk of those papers which had been represented as so voluminous. Mr. Creevey said, that the hon. gent. was under a mistake, as the Furruckabad papers had not been represented as very voluminous, though the papers relating to some of the other places had undoubtedly been so represented. Mr. Paull was proceeding to defend the correctness of his statement, when he was called to order. He then said that he was the only person who was kept to such strict order on these subjects; upon which the Speaker appealed to the house whether he deserved the imputation now cast upon him. The papers were then ordered to be printed.—On the motion of Mr. Foster, the house resolved itself into a committee on the Linen act. Mr. Foster stated, that the object of going into the committee was this. It had been the policy of this country to encourage the export of our manufactures, especially those that were common both to G. Britain and Ireland, such as that of linen. Drawbacks had accordingly been allowed, so as to give the decided preference to the exportation of our own manufactures over those of other countries. His object then was, to place the drawback on plain linen in the same situation in which it was before the act of last year. He concluded by moving a resolution to this effect, which was agreed to.

ELECTION TREATING BILL.
Mr.
Tierneymoved the further consideration of the report of this bill, for the purpose of having it recommitted, as the amendments made in the former committee did not meet the approbation of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) not then in his place. It was suggested to him, that he should allow the voter to be conveyed at the expence
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of the candidate to the place of election, but he could not agree to allow him a sum of money to defray his own expences. The amendments he proposed, when the bill should be recommitted, would be for the most part verbal, and, therefore, not likely to provoke any discussion.
Sir R. Buxtonthought that the candidate ought to be at no expence with respect to the voters, and would rather have the law as it was, than agree to pass the bill with the amendment.
Mr. Paullthought that, however the bill might be disguised, its effect would be, to diminish the number of voters, and for that reason he would oppose it.
Lord A. Hamiltonsaid that his objections went to the principle of the bill; and as to the recommitment, there was only one clause in the bill, and that one involved the principle itself, He was against it therefore, though he believed the right hon. gent. could have no motives in this business except such as were pure and honourable.
Mr. Tierneysaid he had no personal interest whatever in the bill; as, in the place he represented, the law on that point was already settled, and he only wished to extend the benefit of it to all parts of the country. He would rather give up the bill altogether, than have any new doubts started on the law. He stated before, that he did not object to the candidate providing carriages, but the giving of money for that purpose. This bill was no more than explanatory of the act of William III. and he thought if it should be rejected, it would be right, for the purpose of ending all doubts, to declare, that the candidate should in future pay the conveyance, as well as the expence of travelling.
Mr. Francisthought that the amendment would alter the principle of the bill considerably. Carriages were to be allowed to convey the voters, but how were they to be conveyed; alive or dead? An hon. gent. behind him whispered "dead drunk." Well, be it so; but if you gave the voter nothing to eat or drink, in a journey of 200 miles, he would scarcely he alive by the time he came to the place of polling; or, if he were alive, he would not be able to vote.
Mr. Bakercontended that the candidate ought to be at no expence; but this bill would do so little, that he thought it better the law should remain as it was.
Mr. Spencer Stanhopethought this bill better than no bill at all, as it was impossible to leave the matter as it was. He

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thought that it would be better to regulate the expences of the candidate, for he was of opinion that any law which went to do them away altogether would be evaded. It was a wise saying of Solon to the Atheni- ans, "I do not give you the best laws possible, but the best which you can bear." We ought to keep this in mind.
Mr. Grahamno longer Considered it as the same bill to which he had given his support. He thought that the right. hon. gent. had now completely abandoned the original principle with Which he had set out. The subsistence of the voter was as necessary to be provided for as his conveyance. He stated that he had been credibly informed that the last contested elections for Middlesex had cost the patties 30,000 l. in the article of conveyance alone; and therefore thought that the bill, as it was proposed to be altered, would be perfectly inadequate to its original purpose.
Mr. Rosethought the country was under great obligations to the right hon. gent. for bringing the matter forward; as it was necessary that the point should be decided in one way or the other. He was rather indifferent in which way that decision should be made; but he preferred the mode of exempting the candidate, as it would be impossible to equalize the expences; for 2s. a day may be an object to one elector, when 10 s. a day would scarcely be an object to another. The law at present was extremely doubtful: for on two eminent lawyers being consulted on this point, in a case that occurred at the last general election, one of them declared, that he was convinced the law was one way, but he was of opinion, that the committee would decide the other way.—The house then divided on the question, whether the bill should be recommitted. Ayes 24; Noes 14. The bill was then re-committed and reported, and the report was ordered to be further considered on Friday.

MINUTES.
The house met at 10, and about 11 proceeded to Westminster-hall, to attend the trial of lord viscount Melville.—The bills on the table were previously forwarded in their respective stages. Amongst these, the 3 million Exchequer Bills bill, the Tea Duty bill, the Irish Bank Note bill, and the Irish House Tax Repeal bill, were read a third time and passed.—Their lordships returned to the house about a quarter before four.—Strangers were for some time excluded, during which an order was made to proceed on the trial of lord Melville the next morning, and a message was ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

WITNESSES' DECLARATORY BILL.
The house then took into consideration the amendments made by the Commons in the Declaratory bill respecting the liability of Witnesses to answer. A conversation of considerable length ensued, in which lords Eldon, Hawkesbury, Holland, Ellenborough, and the lord chancellor; the earls of Suffolk, Rosslyn, and Stanhope; and the duke of Norfolk, took a part.
Lord Hawkesburymoved,"that the farther consideration of the amendments be post-

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poned till to-morrow;" in order that the attendance on a topic of such importance should be fuller, and to afford certain peers, who, he had reason to think, wished to speak, an opportunity of delivering their sentiments.
Lord Eldonthought the bill wanted some farther alteration or amendment, not deeming it, in its present shape, a bill declaratory of the law, as declared by the learned judges, or the greater part of them; or according to their conceptions of what the law really was, as he had an opportunity of knowing, from a personal communication with some of them. Its tenour was different from that of other declaratory bills, for it went to declare, not what the law was, but what the law was not. He thought, under what had been thrown out on the subject, they should pause, and not pass the bill in its present shape. It involved legal considerations of the greatest importance, and in a way likely to affect many of their lordships, for instance, those who were great landed proprietors. The word "only" in the bill, on which so much stress had been laid, as rendering the declaration sufficiently definite, and as likely to prove a sufficient guide for the judges in the courts below, he thought would not be so efficacious, and in the interval proposed, he thought he should be able to determine upon some further amendments, which would produce the desired effect.
Lords Holland, Stanhope, and other peers, defended the bill, under the circumstances of the case, as it now stood, and were adverse to any further delay to its passing, which they contended ought speedily to take place; it was also observed, that the bill with the amendments had lain on the table for several days, and noble lords had had sufficient time to have called the attention of the house to the subject.
The Lord Chancellordefended the bill in its present shape, upon the legal grounds he had formerly adduced in support of it; and contended, that the declaration, as so worded, would, by confining it to the single species of demurrer, be a sufficient rule for the learned judges. The bill, however, he observed, had improperly been called his bill; though his was the hand that presented it to the consideration of their lordships, it was founded upon the proposition of a noble and learned lord then present. In future, should he propose any
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thing in the shape of an act of parliament to their lordships' consideration, it should be purely his own; and then he should rightly have to stand or fall by its merits or demerits.
Lord Hawkesburyin further explanation, observed, that though the bill, with the amendments, might have lain for several days upon the table, yet it was incumbent upon those, in the case of a legislative measure of such importance, urging the passing of the bill so amended, to give some notice of the time they proposed for the consideration of such amendments, and to have the lords summoned thereupon.—After some further discussion, the question was put, and the original motion for taking the amendments into immediate consideration, was negatived without a division. The amendments made by the commons were then formally taken into consideration and agreed to.

CORN.
Earl Stanhoperose to make a motion, which, in his mind, was of the utmost urgency. He had been given to understand by a noble lord (Auckland), that there would be no objection to the motion with which he should conclude; but he felt its object to be of so much importance in its nature and probable effects, that no time should be lost in submitting it to their lordships.
Lord Ellenboroughrose to observe, that if the motion which the noble lord meant to bring forward, was of such very great importance, he begged leave to submit to him, whether it was not improper to bring it forward in so thin a house.
Earl Stanhopesaid, that the object of his motion, in the first instance, was merely to move for important information to be laid before the house. If the noble and learned lord had been in possession of that information, he would not be so forward in proposing delay, and that respecting a matter which so vitally concerned the great majority of the community. The most imminent danger hung over the present situation of the country, and not only the comforts, but the wants of the people might be put to hazard.
Lord Ellenboroughrose again, and called the noble lord to order. It could not be fairly said of him, that he treated any thing that regarded the subject with levity. No man was more alive to the interests of the subject than he was; and he could give no better proof of that respect for them, than

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the wish he had expressed, that whatever concerned the people should be seriously and deliberately discussed.
Earl Stanhopecontended, that the learned lord seemed not to be aware of the difficulties and dangers to which he alluded. There was no knowing to what an alarming degree a scarcity might soon be experienced. The experience of former times should have taught us better. It ought to be recollected, that in the course of 15 years, about 45 millions sterling had been sent out of the country for the purchase of corn and grain, &c. when even there existed more facilities of procuring it, than we were likely soon to possess. The ports of the Baltic would be, or were already, shut against us; and whither were we then to look for any immediate supply? With the intention of bringing this subject more fully and fairly before their lordships, he should now move, that there be laid before the house an account of the quantity of corn, grain, rice, &c. imported into G. Britain since the 1st of Jan. 1806; also an account of the exports of the same during the same period.
Lord Moiracould not remain silent, after hearing and weighing the tendency of the assertions made by the noble earl. He did riot rise to oppose the motion, but to observe somewhat upon the tone and arguments with which it was introduced. He did not pretend to be in possession of the minute and accurate information upon this subject, which he knew might be brought forward by his noble friend (lord Auckland), but still he thought himself bound in duty to counteract, as far as lay in his power, the ill effects which might arise from the alarming language and insinuations held and thrown out by the noble earl upon such a delicate and important matter. As far, therefore, as he had any knowledge of the present state of the country, and of the very promising aspect of a plenteous harvest, he would readily take upon himself to assert, that there was no room whatsoever to entertain the most distant apprehension of the danger the noble earl seemed to forebode with so much emphasis and earnestness. He was sorry such an idea should go abroad upon such grave authority: and he was conscious it was his duty, as far as in him lay, to set the little authority he might have upon that point, in opposition to that of the noble earl.
Lord Aucklandcould not well express his thanks to the noble earl who spoke last for the favour he had done him, by taking off
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his shoulders the weight he felt imposed upon them by the observations of the noble lord who made the motion. It was true, that the noble lord had shown him the motions he had made, but as many other matters were then pressing upon his mind, and as he had no idea of the language and manner with which the noble lord baa prefaced them, he had signified no intention of objecting to the motion which the noble lord was to make. But when he heard the noble lord thus causelessly sound an alarm of scarcity, and set forth that alarm on such groundless reasons, he felt himself called upon to say more than perhaps he should be justified in saying under other circumstances. Not only therefore was he warranted in concurring with his noble friend, in asserting that every thing in the aspect of the harvest was of a nature to preclude all apprehensions like those which the noble earl's speech was calculated to send abroad, but he had moreover the satisfaction to state, that not only the ports of the Baltic were not shut against us, but that there was even no apprehension that they would be shut. There was consequently no ground whatever for the alarm upon that subject, which the language of the noble earl was of a nature to propagate.—The question was then put upon lord Stanhope's motion, and agreed to.