Sitting of 25 April 1806

MINUTES.
Sir Andersonbrought in a bill to enable the proprietors of the new houses near Temple Bar and Snow Hill, to dispose of them by way of lottery, which was read a first time.—Mr. Manning brought up the report of the committee on the London Dock Improvement bill. The amendments were agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a 3d time.—On the motion of Mr. W. Keene, it was ordered that there be laid before the house, copies of all applications to the court of directors, for claims on the Nabob of Oude, with the amount thereof, and the decisions thereupon.—Lord H. Petty, in consequence of some informality, felt himself obliged to postpone, for a few days, the motion of which he had given notice, relative to the provision for the family of the late lord Nelson, which he would bring forward, however, at an early opportunity.

REPEAL OF ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.
Mr. Secretary foxwhen he had, on a former day, moved that the order for the 2d reading of the bill for the repeal of the additional force act be deferred till Monday, had not in his recollection that on Tuesday a business was to come on of as great parliamentary importance as any the executive government could have to be sanctioned by the house, he meant the impeachment of lord Melville, which the house had determined to attend in a body. If
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the house were to sit in protracted discussion to a late hour on Monday night, it was impossible there could be that full attendance on Tuesday that the dignity of the house, the importance of the occasion, and the respect due to the Speaker required. After Tuesday, the first day of the impeachment, the same full attendance on that business would not be so necessary. He would, therefore, propose Wednesday or Thursday for the 2d reading of the bill.
Mr. Canningdid not object to the motion; but he hoped the day now to be fixed for the second reading of the bill alluded to, would be adhered to definitively. Without entering into the reasons which were given for deferring the proceeding beyond Monday, every one must allow that this business was also of the most important nature. Various reports and considerations had gone abroad on the subject, embracing the whole military system, which it was extremely important to settle and set at rest as soon as possible.
Mr. Secretary Foxacknowledged the importance of the bill; but the force of the grounds for putting it off must be felt by every one—the indisposition of his right hon. friend who originated the bill in the first instance, and the magnitude of the business to come on on Tuesday in the present. He agreed to fix the 2d reading for Wednesday.
[INCREASED PAY OF THE NAVY.] The house having resolved itself into a committee of supply, to which were referred the navy estimates, presented yesterday, respecting the allowance of additional pay to the officers and seamen of the navy,
Lord Howickrose and spoke as follows;—I rise, sir, pursuant to notice, to submit to the house a proposition, upon which I am persuaded there can be but one opinion in this house. It must be equally the wish of every Englishman to contribute to the adequate provision and comfort of a class of men who stand so high in universal estimation, as the British navy, and who have claims so peculiarly strong upon the esteem and gratitude of their country. It must, I say, be our wish not only to promote the comforts, but to secure the necessary rewards to that gallant body. Feeling this, I cannot suffer myself to entertain a doubt of unanimous support. But, although I am confident that the principle and justice of the measure I am about to submit will meet the most cordial and liberal concurrence in all quarters, still, lest

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any exception should be taken as to the expediency of proposing it at the present moment, I think it necessary to State reasons which have induced me to bring it under your consideration. This statement I feel it right to make, in order that it may not be supposed that I have acted rashly or unadvisedly, or that I have undertaken, without adequate motive or due consideration, to propose any addition to the public burthens. I trust it will appear to every thinking man, that this addition, although considerable, is called for by the most pressing claims of justice and necessity, and that the country cheerfully yields to those calls, from a well deserved attention to the quarters from whence they proceed. An addition to the pay of a certain class of our navy, has long as been thought necessary, and that necessity has been frequently urged in vain. I was but a short time in the office which I have honour to hold, when I found that measures were taking to lay the claims of this class before parliament; information reached me from a variety of channels, that petitions were left at the different ports for signatures, praying an increase of the pay of naval lieutenants, and that it was intended to have such petitions presented to parliament. The copy of these petitions I have seen, and it was, no doubt, couched in terms the most proper and respectful that could be devised; and the object of the petitioners struck me to be unexceptionably fair. But still I had objections to that mode of proceeding. I therefore thought it my duty to discourage it. I however took every means in my power to enquire into the case, well satisfied that if there were any ground of complaint in any part of the navy, parliament would seize the first opportunity to remove it, and the country would be forward to applaud the act. The result of my enquiry has served to convince my mind, that not only the class alludes to, but every other class in the navy, from the superior officers down to the ordinary seamen, labour under disadvantages which ought to be immediately set aside. With this conviction I am of course of opinion, that no measure of relief can he effectual, that in fact, any concession will lose much of its value, if partial in its application; and that the only way of doing substantial justice, and giving general satisfaction, is by raising the rates of allowance to all the classes of the navy. The complaint of the lieutenants, the house will recollect to be by no means new:
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Some years since application was made in their favour, and the consequence was, an order merely to raise the pay of the lower lieutenants to a level with that of the higher. So far as the arrangement went, it was, no doubt, advantageous, but to only one of he parties, although the complaint was from the whole. That the ground of such a complaint should be totally removed, I am sure the house will concur with me in thinking; and also that no complaint should be allowed to exist in any rank of our navy, from the highest to the lowest. Indeed, it can only be necessary to state this proposition to insure acquiescence, without any argument whatever. I shall, of course, exclude from the new arrangement, those officers who received last year any addition to their pay; I mean the masters and surgeons. They were undoubtedly entitled to the attention they have experienced, but they have received their due proportion upon the scale I now propose. To all the other officers I shall extend the augmentation. I have said that I shall make no partial selection, and in this resolution I am justified by the advice of the most competent authorities, of persons best qualified to judge upon the subject. It has been strongly urged to me, by every person with whom I have consulted, that the warrant and petty officers are particularly entitled to a liberal allowance; and not only the necessity of preserving a fair proportion, and the policy of guarding against discontent, but justice itself pleads in favour of the seamen. Indeed, in the opinion of all naval men, it would be highly imprudent to advance the pay of the warrant and petty officers, without granting a proportionate advance to the able and ordinary seamen. I am aware that an advance was made to the latter in 1797. But still it will be admitted that, from the enhancement of all articles of the first necessity, and the depreciation of money which has taken place within the last nine years, the demand of a further advance to these meritorious men cannot be considered unreasonable. To establish any increase of wages proportionate to the circumstances I have mentioned, it is not my intention to attempt. Indeed such a thing would be scarcely possible. I have endeavoured to keep equally in view the degrees of rank and the merits of service; and hope I have avoided the injustice and inconvenience of any partial selection, such as prevailed in 1797, when the addi-

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tion to the seamen's wages was not such as to afford them much advantage or satisfaction, and yet it created an undue proportion in their favour. By any man who rejects but a moment on the sufferings, the privations, and the services of our seamen, it is impossible that a doubt can be entertained of the propriety of affording them every means of consolation in our power. Look but at the difficulties and dangers to which they are exposed every hour; review the manner in which they have overcome every difficulty and danger that has heretofore assailed them, and mark the glory which you have derived from their dauntless exertions. After this review, is there an English heart which would not revolt at a moment's hesitation to grant the just claims of an English seaman? But independently of any appeal to liberality, the pretensions of the seamen are incontrovertible. When we consider the nature of the service in which they are engaged, what must be our reflections? Withdrawn from all the enjoyments of domestic comfort, exposed to all the hazards of war, deprived of the profits and security they had on board merchant-ships, from which for the most part they have been taken; the prospect, in fact, of future advancement cut off, and perhaps forfeited for ever; such has been the state of the greater part of your present seamen for years back, excepting in some degree, that period of disturbed and agitated peace, if that could be called peace, in which you were subject to all the embarrassments, and obliged to maintain all the expences and apparatus of war. A large proportion indeed of your seamen has been in actual service for 12 or 13 years, and in actual service of the most toilsome, dangerous, unprofitable, and unpromosing description; compelled for the most part, of late years, to encounter the inclemency of all seasons, they have had to watch the enemy in his ports, without even the hope of meeting and conquering him, which would render a British seamen indifferent to fatigue. No; the enemy having no means of safety but in eluding the vigilance of our seamen, disappoints that thirst for conquest and glory which distinguishes our gallant tars, and which reconciles them to danger. Under such an accumulation of disadvantages, can you, I say, refuse them any comfort in your power to administer? can you hesitate to furnish them with the means of solace on their midnight watch?—Having now stated
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so much at large, the motives which have induced me to bring forward this proposition, I shall now proceed to detail the several items of the encrease which I have to offer for your consideration. It will be observed, that my arrangement does not include the landsmen; because I feel, that as they enter voluntarily, aware of all the circumstances of the situation in which they engage, they stand on a footing quite different from that of the seamen. Now, as to the scale of augmentation, I propose to allow every ordinary seaman an additional pay of 2s. per month; to every able seaman 4s. per month; to all petty officers, who, according to the universal opinion, are so materially instrumental in preserving the discipline, and promoting the success of our fleets, 5s. per month. At the same time I mean, that a considerable addition should take place in the number of this very useful body of men. This addition to include all those who are denominated on board, the captains of the forecastle, of the mast, of the tops, and of the afterguard, who are the most active seamen on board; and to each of them I propose an increase of 9s. 6d. per month. To master's-mates and warrant officers I would give an addition of 6s. per month. As the warrant officers are retained and receive their pay during peace, as well as war, the addition to be granted them, in this instance, is only to be allowed while they are in actual service. To the master and surgeons, I have already stated, no addition is to be made. But there is a class of persons in the navy, whose claims to attention are as well founded as the general respectability of their character, I mean the chaplains; among the general advance, I propose to grant to the chaplain the appointment of schoolmaster, which will form an addition to his revenue of 20 l. a year. I now come to the commissioned officers, whose pay has not experienced any rise since the days of queen Anne. First, as to lieutenants, who have received but 5s. per day since that period, I should add 1s. per day; to the captains and admirals, whose pay has been as stationary as that of the lieutenants, I would also make an addition. The captains, I assure the house, although their complaints have not been so often heard, have as much;round to complain, and are as much entitled to attention, as any class in his majesty's service. To the pay of these officers, therefore, I would add 4s. per day. The

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gradation respecting the admirals I would arrange thus: to rear-admirals an addition of 3s. 6d. per day; to vice-admirals, 5s.; to admirals, 7s.; and to admirals of the fleet, 10 s.—The aggregate of the estimated charges under these several heads will be 288,366 l. or say 300,000 l. per annum. But as the increase for the present year will only commence from the 1st of May next, I have only now to move for the grant of 193,168 l.—To the principle of this arrangement I have no fear of any opposition, and if in the details any thing objectionable should occur, I shall be very willing to attend to the suggestion of any gentleman upon it.—The plan of providing for those who are able to serve being gone through, we naturally turn our attention to those who are disabled by age, infirmity, or wounds, from any longer serving their country. For such persons Greenwich chest and Greenwich hospital already furnish some provision. As to the hospital, that institution has quite sufficient funds to answer its object, and any further allowance to the seamen who subsist on it would be rather liable to abuse; but as to the chest, its funds would be insufficient for the purpose. Those in view require an addition of from 14 to 20,000 l. Out of this sum I would have allowed to out-pensioners a certain addition to each, to be a regulated according to their services and their present situation. From 7l/ a year, it should rise in gradation till it reached 1s. per day. For this sum I mean no addition to the public burthens. I propose it to be provided for by a measure which will require a bill to be brought in, namely, by a grant of 1s. in the pound from all prize-money; and, in addition to this, I have no doubt of his majesty's consent to set apart, for the same purpose, all droits of the admiralty. His majesty's uniform solicitude for the comfort and reward of the navy, warrants a confidence in his acquiescence upon this subject. It will be seen that I have altogether omitted any allusion to the marines, not however from any disposition to overlook their just claims. But this description of force having so much analogy to the regular army, I thought it better to postpone any reference to their case, until the question respecting the pay of the army shall be determined. I have now nothing more to add, than to assure the house, that in the preparation of the arrangement I have detailed, my anxious endeavour has been to
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reconcile all sides. I flatter myself that the outline will not be ungraciously received by any one. If, however, any difference of opinion should arise upon the detail part, on which I may perhaps have deviated from principle, which I trust is unexceptionable, I hope that the whole may be considered on its own merits. My wish is, that no comparisons may be made. They must tend to excite the most invidious feelings, possibly other mischievous effects, while they can serve no purpose of legitimate argument. The army and navy are both the means of our safety, and entitled to our warmest gratitude. The condition of both is deserving our most diligent attention. But then they stand upon different grounds. No comparison can be fairly instituted between the state and pretensions of both. What may be a boon for the one, it may impossible to give to the other. I, therefore, hope the two cases may not be confounded, and that in discussing this subject, gentleman will avoid any reference to extraneous topics, but decide upon it from a fair view of its own justice and expediency.—The motion for the grant of 193,16 sl. with which the noble lord concluded, being read by the chairman; in reply to a question from Mr. Wilberforce, he stated, that the proposed addition to the number of petty officers, would amount to about 10 in each ship of the line.
Mr. Francisconfessed that the business was new to him, and that his apprehensions might appear to have no foundation; but he had one general question to ask: he wished to know whether, when the pay of the officers and seamen was originally fixed, the probability of prize money was not taken into consideration, and whether on that ground the pay was not fixed at so much lower rate? whether the pay, as connected with the prize money, was not considered as sufficient? As to his noble friend's request, that no comparison should be instituted in this discussion between the case of the navy, and that of the army, he rather apprehended that if there should be any inequality in the branches of service, unpleasant comparisons would be made elsewhere, however studiously any allusion to the subject might be avoided in that house.
Lord Garliessaid, that having very frequently and maturely considered this subject, he thought great credit due to the noble lord, who, after being so short a

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time in office, was already prepared with so desirable a measure. But though he highly approved of the principle of the measure, he could not equally approve of the application proposed to be made of the sum of nearly 300,000 l. in the classes in which it was meant to be distributed. The warrant and petty officers were known to all professional men, to be the life and soul of the navy of Great Britain, and even according to what was now proposed, would be inadequately provided for. It was of the utmost consequence to attach that class of men so to the naval situations they held, as to take from them all wish of inducement to go into the merchant service; to which, he lamented to say, that many of them were at present strongly inclined. He had no objection to the gradation made from admirals to lieutenants, but very much wished that greater attention had been paid to the pay and situation of the first lieutenants of men of war, who had now no more rank or pay in the service, than young lieutenants of a day's standing, though in action they were every moment liable to have the whole command of the ship. He thought that, for the sake of maintaining a proper distinction, they should be allowed a further daily encreased of 5s. pay, which, to the nation, would not make an additional expence of more than 5l. a day throughout the whole navy. As to the warrant and petty officers, he would again repeat, that they were the flower and strength of the navy of England, and amongst other things, had charge of the stores of the ships, which cost the nation so many millions. He thought it but reasonable that their pay should be encreased to 5l. a month, which was what they could get in the merchant's service; and as there were but 3 of them in each ship, the rise could not be attended with any great expence. In great ships where there was more duty, they certainly were inadequately paid, though he would not say the same of them from 74 gun ships downwards. In his opinion, the situation of petty officers should correspond with that of quarter-masters, and the situation of warrant officers with that of serjeants in the army. The petty officers in time of peace, would get 3l. per month in the merchant service, but if government were to allow them the same, they would have no inducement to enter it; and he thought it would be much better to do it now, during war, than wait till a time of peace, on the arrival of which
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he feared a great number of them would quit his majesty's service, for one in which they could find superior encouragement. Were it done now, he thought it might produce the best effect; for though, perhaps, no man would prefer submission to military discipline, to being at his own liberty, yet, when accustomed to it, and already placed in a satisfactory situation, he might feel no inclination to change it. As to the able-bodied and ordinary seamen, they were certainly deserving of every encouragement that could be given them; but meritorious as their services were, he would rather see the chest of Greenwich applied to the encouragement of the warrant and petty officers. The house would perceive, that the only difference of opinion between him and the noble lord was respecting the appropriation of the money. He would go farther in his observations, and though the practice of impressing for the navy was one, no man could ever dream of giving up; yet he would maintain, that it would be much better to get as many men as we could voluntarily, than to depend entirely upon that practice. He also suggested the expediency, as a further inducement to the service, to grant the out-pension of the chest of Greenwich to the widows of such men as had been slain in service; and also to all such petty and warrant officers as had served for a certain number of years, without incurring any punishments by Courts-Martial, or by desertion, which was the bane of the service. He concluded with saying, that he should be sorry if these were only the singular opinions of himself, an individual unaccustomed to public speaking, and therefore the more diffident in addressing himself to the house; but he had the satisfaction to state, that his opinion was fortified by that of the noble lord (Melville) who, however he might have lately fallen under the displeasure of the house, must be admitted on all sides to be a great practical statesman; and he felt himself authorised to add, that had that noble lord remained till this time at the head of the admiralty, the suggestions which he now humbly submitted, would have been carried into effect. He hoped the house would pardon him the slight digression, if he further stated his perfect conviction, that it was to the measures adopted by that noble lord and excellent statesman, that we were indebted for all that extent of glory, which the navy of England had acquired in the course of the

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last year.—The resolution was then agreed to.
[SLAVE IMPORTATION BILL.] The Attorney General moved the order of the day for the farther consideration of the report of the bill for preventing the importation of slaves into the conquered colonies.—On the question being put,
Mr. Rosehaving several considerations to offer against this bill, from the effect it would have on the general commercial interests of the country, and which he wished to have an opportunity of communicating, without the necessity of making them public, submitted to the learned gent. the propriety of delaying this question two or three days: it could be productive, he thought, of no inconvenience to delay it till Tuesday.
Mr. Secretary Foxdid not see why the consideration of the report should be delayed on that account. His learned friend would, he doubted not, readily agree to postpone the third reading until Tuesday, which would answer the same purpose.
Mr. Rosesaid, that if the report were now to be considered, he must call the attention of the house to several important points connected with this bill. He conceived now that the ports of the North were shut against our commerce, this bill would operate in still further injuring that, and our manufactures, The value of our manufactures exported annually to Africa was above two millions. How much of this gross amount would be affected by this bill, he could not pretend to say, but certainly enough to induce the house to pause, before, at such a crisis as the present, they sacrificed it. Our East-India trade would be materially injured likewise by its operation, as likewise our direct trade to the Spanish Main, which was highly profitable. What object was attained by the bill? If the abolition of the slave trade, the plain fact that as we receded from the trade the Americans advanced in it, would be sufficient to shew the absurdity of the idea. Those, indeed, who professed to be the friends of humanity, ought scarcely to support a bill which was calculated to divert the African trade into a channel much more injurious to the interests of humanity, than that in which it then was. The last ship from Africa to Carolina buried 152 slaves on her passage, and yet her voyage was considered sufficiently profitable. If the bill passed, the consequence would be, that the manufacturers of Manchester, Stockport, and
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Paisley, would be going about naked and starving, and thus by attending to a supposed claim, or relief from a distant quarter, we should give existence to much more severe distress at home.
The Attorney Generalremarked, that as these observations went to condemn the principle of the bill, and not to introduce into it any modifications, their discussion had better be reserved till the third reading of the bill. They would at least be as proper in that stage of the bill as now, and it was desirable, he thought, that they should not have two debates on the same subject. If the right hon. gent. had more observations to offer, he had better adduce them now once for all, or postpone the whole till the stage he had alluded to. It was a matter of indifference to him whether the principle should be now debated or afterwards, but he did not wish to have it twice debated.
Mr. Rosesaid he should still think himself at liberty on the 3rd reading to offer what observations might occur to him, and would dot tie himself down to be silent in that stage of the business.
General Tarletonas a representative of the city of Liverpool, had the strongest objections to this bill. The object of it was to prevent the importation of slaves into the foreign colonies, by the British. Nothing could be conceived almost, which would tend more to injure the interests of the navy. We ought to take care of the interests of our navy, and commerce would take care of itself. The African trade had been the great cause of the prosperity and opulence of Liverpool. The sailors in this trade were the best that could be found, and the greatest supplies for our navy were obtained from the port of Liverpool. Although many were of opinion that the coasting trade was the chief nursery for our marine, yet he maintained that sailors were good in proportion to the length of their voyages, and those of the sailors in the African trade were certainly long ones. There had been no considerable actions, such as that of Trafalgar, and others, in which sailors from this trade were not to be found in considerable numbers. The consequence of giving up this trade, in any degree, would be to throw it into the hands of the Americans, who could carry it on cheaper. It would also send our capital to America. He would ask an hon. gent. (Mr. Wilberforce) whether he meant to bring in his annual

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bill? Ever since he had a seat in parliament, we had an annual debate on this subject, and as the measure could not be carried in its general form, they were now coming by a side wind on the planters, We had heard a great deal of eloquence displayed on the cruelty exercised upon the slaves, in the passage; and yet these gentlemen were now for turning over the trade to the Americans, by whom the slaves would be treated with much more cruelty; for it appeared that they had, lost 152 men on the passage in one instance, and yet made a profitable voyage. One great foundation of our maritime strength was the slave trade, and therefore it ought not to be restricted.
Mr. Alderman Prinsepwas apprehensive that it would interfere with the faith of his majesty, pledged to some of the conquered colonies, that they, should be on the same footing with the British West India islands, as appeared from the, terms of their capitulation; and wished to know if it would supercede the proclamation of his majesty of the 15th of Aug. 1805, which admitted the supply of those islands with negroes at the rate of a certain per centage, according to their present black population?
The Attorney Generalsaid, the, bill was not intended to supersede the order of his majesty in council of the 15th of Aug., but on the contrary would give it the sanction of parliament, though he would not enquire at present whether that was really necessary, his majesty having occupied those colonies in right of conquest. Care would be taken to make provisions in the bill for allowing the per centage of negroes, pledged by his majesty's declaration.
General Gascoynewas of opinion that if the general question was likely to be brought forward, as it had annually been for some time past, it was only losing time to discuss it now. It would be better to discuss the question of an entire abolition at once, and therefore wished to know if the hon. member opposite (Mr. Wilberforce) had it in contemplation to bring forward the question this session? If any hopes had been held out to the conquered colonies of being treated in the sane manner as the British, he thought this bill would operate as a violation of our faith. Mr. W. took no notice of the question put to him by the hon. general. After a few observations from sir W. Young, the bill was ordered to be read a 3d time on Tuesday.
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[PROPERTY DUTY BILL.] The order of the day for going into a committee on the Property Duty Bill having been read,
Lord Henry Pettystated, that, it had been found necessary to introduce several amendments into the bill. It was his intention therefore to propose, that the bill thus amended, should be re-printed, and taken into further consideration some day next week. This appeared to him to be the best mode of giving the bill that full and fair discussion, which he was anxious that it should receive. With regard to the principle of the bill, as it had received the sanction of a large majority both in its present form, and when it was presented in another shape, he should abstain, from saying any thing upon it, although he was aware, that there were some who entertained a strong objection to the principle. He would, therefore, confine himself to stating shortly, the substance of two or three of the principal amendments which he intended to propose. It would be recollected, that as the bill originally stood, it imposed a duty of 10 per cent, on all incomes from property, exempting only small annuitants and persons in trade, whose incomes were under a hundred a year; and that for these persons a gradual scale of exemption had been formed from incomes of 50 l. to incomes of 100 l. a year; leaving incomes under 50 l. a year totally exempt from the operation of the act. He had already stated the mode in which these exemptions were to be repaid to the persons claiming them. When the bill went into the committee, he trusted it would be found that this mode was very simple. It merely required a certificate to be produced by the claimant, which could be to him no inconvenience, and, what was certainly very desirable, it tended materially to lessen the difficulty which the commissioners had hitherto found in executing their duty. Deeply as he felt the necessity of making the bill efficient, and reluctant as he was to relax any of the provisions which were calculated to render it so, yet, on mature consideration, he found the expediency of alleviating the burden in some degree, and particularly on the inferior classes. In the first place, his amendments had for, their object that class of society, who, employed in laborious or handicraft occupations, were paid weekly wages, which amounted to no more than 50 l. a year. When gentlemen recollected how this money was acquired, when they considered

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that it was frequently by the sacrifice of health, and ultimately a life, in dangerous and injurious employments, they would readily allow that those persons whom he had mentioned were entitled to some superior advantages. It was his intention, therefore, to propose a clause, by which persons receiving not more than 30 s. a week, or 5s. on any one day, should be exempted altogether from the operation of the bill. He likewise meant to propose, that the scale of exemptions which now was carried from incomes of 50 l. to incomes of 100 l. should be extended to incomes of 150 l.; applying the same principle as in the former case. Having said thus much, he should move that the Speaker do leave the chair.
Sir R. Buxtonexpressed his intention, when the amendments were printed, and the bill should again come under the consideration of the house, to offer some observations on it. He thought that the landed interest would suffer materially by it as it now stood, and he was anxious for some qualification of the hardships to which it subjected them.
Mr. W. Smithdeclared that, he was one of those who opposed this measure from the very beginning. Although he could not but be sensible that the situation of the country rendered the duty of his hon. friends very embarrassing; and although he did not feel disposed to increase this embarrassment, by opposing this or any of their other bills, yet as he had so frequently on former occasions expressed his disapprobation of the principle on which the present bill was founded, he could not allow it to be supposed by the public, that any change of men had produced a change in his opinion of this measure. When it should again be brought forward, he would deliver his sentiments upon it. As to the encrease to 10 per cent. he confessed that that was with him no material objection to the bill.
Sir. C. Pricelamented the operation of this tax, as it would affect a large and meritorious class of tradesmen in this metropolis; he meant those whose incomes were below 200 l. a year: Not only the burthen of the tax itself would be a very inconvenient reduction of their means of subsistance, but the exposure of their circumstances would be oppressive to their feelings, and detrimental to their interests.
Mr. Wilberforcehoped to have heard of more numerous exemptions; he was however sensible of the absolute necessity
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of rendering the tax productive, and he was unwilling to oppose those who had accepted of offices of high responsibility in difficult and dangerous times.
Mr. Bastardwould not have the farming interests forgotten: the farmer was a tradesman, and was entitled to as much indulgence in his rustic engagements, as his competitors in the great towns of the kingdom.
Mr. Vansittarttrusted, that in the variety of objections gentlemen adduced, they would not forget two things of essential importance; the produce and the practical effect of the tax. As to its operation on land, it might be resembled to the old land-tax, and perhaps by this familiar view of it, gentlemen would be less disposed to give it their opposition.—The house then went into the committee, and the amendments were read and agreed to. The report was ordered to be taken into consideration on Friday,
[STIPENDIARY CURATES' BILL.] Mr. Perceval moved the order of the day for the 2d reading of this bill.
Sir J. Wrottesleyobjected to it on the ground of its placing the property of the church too much in the power of the bishops. They had the same passions with other men, and their conduct had at different times, been too much characterised by ambition and the love of power. The present bill professed to be designed for the relief of Curates; but he had heard that several of that order had designed to present a petition against it. He contended that it would be better to vote a small sum for the purpose of encreasing the livings of Curates, by,adding to queen Anne's bounty, than that the present bill should pass. He therefore moved that the bill be read this day 6 months.
Mr. Percevalsaid, that a bill founded on the same principle had already twice met with the sanction of the house, though it had not passed in consequence of certain alterations it had undergone in the lords. He therefore had not thought it necessary on the first reading of the bill to enter at length into the merits of it. He contended that the provisions of this bill should have formed a part of the late bill on the residence of the Clergy. That bill had extended great indulgence to rectors, and he should be sorry if there did not now appear the same feeling for curates as there had then been displayed for rectors. Was it not equitable that when rectors were per-

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mitted an absence from their charges of 4 months in the year, curates should receive a comfortable subsistence for regularly performing the duty of a parish? He thought that it was just rectors should be told, you may reside if you please, but if you chuse to indulge in non-residence, you must provide some person qualified, to discharge the duty, with a comfortable subsistance. It had been said, that every thing of this kind should be settled between the rector and the curate, and that the compensation from the one to the other should be permitted to find its own level. But he contended that this mercantile principle was inapplicable to this subject. The interest of the public must also be attended to; and it was their interest that parochial duty should be well performed. It was certainly essential to the proper performance of that duty, that the curate should be enabled to appear with some respectability in his parish; and how could be do this, unless removed from that state of indigence to which so many of them were condemned? He should consider it as the greatest boon which could be granted to the country, were every parish to enjoy a resident clergyman of respectability. With respect to the discretionary power of bishops, he had no objection to their being imperatively bound by the act to assign the due proportion, namely, one-fifth of the living, to the support of the curate, in the case of non-residence. He hoped, however, that if gentlemen considered the importance of every parish enjoying a residing clergyman, they would not object to the bill going to a committee, in which it might undergo many amendments.
Lord Porchesterwas astonished to hear the learned gent. call on the house to take time to consider of the merits of the bill, as in his statement in bringing it in, he had said, that it contained nothing new. The learned gent. had expressed a wish that, if possible, every curate should have 250 l. but, he believed he could with truth state, that the average of the livings in England did not amount to more than that sum. Parliament might insist, on the residence of the clergy, but he conceived it had no more right to dispose of their property than that of any other set of men. The avowed object of the bill was to compel the residence of the curates; now it so happened, that this object was not obtained. Bishops had the power of appointing a curate when the rector was absent, but
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the public had no security that that would be done. The noble lord then adverted to the different parts of the bill, to all of which he objected; and concluded by saying, he would oppose it in the present stage, as he did not think it could be altered in a committee. He said that a strong case ought to be made out before the house could think of transferring property in the manner proposed by this bill. He objected to giving a power to a set of men who, had never failed to exercise any power that was within their grasp. A great responsibility would be imposed on the bishops, and the inferior clergy would be reduced to a state of servile dependence. It was a serious thing to degrade and destroy so large a portion of the middle classes of the people. As to correcting the bill in a committee, that was impossible. Unless every clause in it was altered, the bill could not pass consistently with any principle of justice.
Mr. Fellowes Mr. Fellowes supported the bill, because he was convinced it would have the effect of inducing many of the clergy to reside on their livings, and he would appeal to every gentleman in the house, who was a justice of peace, whether the residence of a clergyman did not materially contribute to the good order and morality of a parish. The number of parishes in England was between 11 and 12.000, in 3,200 of which there were no resident clergymen. This was an evil which he thought should be corrected, and he hoped the bill would be allowed to go into a committee.
Lord Porchester Lord Porchester, in explanation, said that the number of parishes amounted to 11,600. Of these there were 1,360 in which the clergymen could not reside for want of parsonage houses. The clergy of 80 parishes gave notice that they would reside; there were altogether but 2,423 parishes non-resident.
Mr. Barham Mr. Barham objected to the bill as likely to have an effect, the very reverse of what it proposed. It would diminish religions instruction, because it went to diminish the number of teachers. He had the strongest objection to encrease the power of the bishops. It was in the nature of things, that in proportion as clergymen possessed power, in that proportion would they exercise it tyrannically. Let curates be provided for any other way except by the injustice, which this bill went to establish.
Mr. Wilberforcewas surprised to find

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that this bill was to experience any opposition, as it was one which went to provide a suitable maintenance for a man formed the duties of religion out of the profits of him who did no duty for them. There were certain evils in society which were so long endured that they became, in some manner, a part of our nature, and when any attempts were made to remove them, we were apt to say, that the same would be fruitless. Such was now the case with regard to the clergy. The evil of men doing all the duty of parishes, and not having allowances sufficient to exist on, was an evil, the removal of which could not it seems be endured. What would be said if a captain of a man of war should receive all the salary and emoluments belonging to his ship, and, living upon shore, should appoint a deputy to perform the duties of the ship, at a very low salary? Could such a practice be endured in the present situation of this country? Yet such was the case with the non resident clergy, and shewed the effect of custom, and of a habit which should be remedied. For the further elucidation of this subject, the hon. gent. adverted to a letter he had that day received, upon other business; but in which the case of a poor curate was related, who, from indigence, was obliged to employ himself in weaving cotton. It was truly lamentable that men, bred to such a profession, should, by such occupations, be under the necessity of degrading the character of a clergyman; and while ecclesiastical livings were private property; and great and important duties attached to them; the clergy certainly should render themselves to be respected by their parishioners; we must not, therefore, call it a violation of that private property, when we endeavour to secure a resident, to do the duty of his parish with reverence, with decency, and with respectability to himself, and to the satisfaction of his parishioners. It appeared, that while gentlemen on the other side talked of the hardships this measure would put upon rectors and vicars, they forgot the case of the poor half-starved curate with his large family. For these reasons, therefore, and feeling the great importance of the measure, and the benefits which must arise from it to the public at large, he gave the bill his most hearty concurrence.
Mr. Secretary Foxfirst objected to the bill on account of the enormous power it went to give the bishops. He also object-
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ed to the principle of it, which no alterations in a committee could cure. The principle was bad, because it had not the public interest in view. It went to make the stipend of a Curate not commensurate with his public duty, but with the property of his employer. No regard was paid to the duty or the performance of it, but merely to the property of his employer. Every man wished that clergymen should reside on their livings; but as long as pluralities existed, that could never be done. The question then would be, what ought the substitute to receive? No such thing was provided for here; but a fine was to be inflicted on the man who did not reside in his parish. It was a monstrous principle to enquire into all the particulars of a man's property, (he did not mean to say but that, in some particular cases, such as taxes, it might be necessary), and settle what a man was to pay out of that property to the person whom he employed. The evil complained of could not be removed without attacking pluralities. He sincerely wished all the curates had 250 l. per annum, but that the public was not now able to give them. He equally wished the abolition of pluralities, and if any gentleman who was more competent than himself would consider it, he thought it a most laudable, spirited, and practicable undertaking. In the parish of Chertsey, where he resided, the amount of the rector's income was no more than 100 l. a year. According to the provisions of this bill, the curate was to have but 20 l. a year; and in a parish next it, where the duty was not half so great, the income might be five times as much. This measure, then, being vicious in its principle, he would oppose it in the present stage.
Lord Castlereaghsaid he should wish to spare the house the trouble of hearing arguments which might be applied with more propriety to the bill when in a committee; he did not however agree with the argument urged by the right hon. gent. against the bill, who had urged it on the idea that the bill could not apply in all cases; it was, in his opinion, right to apply the bill to all cases in which it could be applied, and it was no objection to the bill that it could not be carried into effect in every instance. It appeared to him, that all the reasons which had been alleged against the bill were chiefly of a nature which did not go to the principle of it, but against the principle of any bill which had for its object

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the regulation of this subject. This bill did not give to the bishop so much power as the former bill, which was now the law, for by that bill the bishop had the power of giving the whole of the rectory to the curate up to the extent of 75 l. a year; whereas by this bill, no more could be given in any case than the one-fifth of the produce of the rectory.
Mr. Alexanderwas against the bill as a partial measure; whereas, if any thing was done at all in this matter, the whole of it should be taken up on a broad and general principle. Pluralities and all other abuses should be considered, if the subject was to come under legislative consideration.—The house then divided, when there appeared: For the second reading, 13; Against it, 25. Majority against the bill 12. It was consequently lost

MINUTES
Lord Ponsonby(late the right hon. W. B. Ponsonby, was introduced with the accustomed formalities, sworn, and took his seat. His lordship's supporters were the earl of Besborough (as lord Ponsonby) and lord Dundas.—The earl of Orford (late baron Walpole) was also introduced, sworn, and took his seat. His lordship's supporters were earls Fitzwilliam and Spencer.

IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.
Lord Eldonstated to the house, that there appeared to him an error in the report of the committee respecting the ceremonial to be observed on the trial of lord Melville, which it was necessary to correct. It was there stated, that on giving judgment every peer should say, "Guilty" or "Not Guilty,"—"upon my honour;" at the same time, laying his hand upon his breast. He conceived that this was erroneous, inasmuch as the decision on such an occasion must be the vote of the house collectively, and certainly, in case of a verdict of Guilty, it was not giving judgment, as the de-

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fendant might move in arrest of judgment, the grounds of which motion would come to be considered by their lordships. The subsequent proceeding of judgment must result from the vote of the house, and be delivered by their speaker. He concluded by giving notice, that he should make a motion on Monday to rectify this error in the report.
The Earl of Raduoradverted to the motion which he made the preceding day, and Which he still contended ought to have been adopted, respecting the peers sitting in their places on the trial of lord Melville, and not departing there from during the trial of each day. His lordship referred to six precedents of trials before the house, in which a similar order had been made; and contended that it ought to be made in this case, in order to ensure that strict decorum which was requisite on so solemn an occasion. Having moved the reading of the first standing order, requiring the peers to sit in their places in the house, as prescribed by act of parliament, he concluded by moving, that so much of the said order as was applicable, should be enforced on the trial of lord Melville.
The Lord Chancellorthought the strict enforcement of such an order would frequently be productive of great inconvenience. He had no doubt that their lordships would observe the greatest decorum upon the trial, whilst, at the same time, he conceived himself already under the standing order, with every necessary power to enforce the observance of decorum, whenever there was any deviation from it. He was likewise of opinion, that the present motion had been decided upon, in substance, the preceding day, and therefore ought not now to be entertained in another shape.—The Earl of Westmeath and Lord Auckland also opposed the motion, on the ground of the inconvenience such an order strictly enforced would produce. The latter noble lord said, there were 12 precedents of impeachment, in which such an order had not been made.—Earl Spencer thought it unnecessary, as it seemed to be agreed on all hands that the greatest possible decorum ought to be observed on the trial.—Several other peers briefly delivered their sentiments; and after the earl of Radnor spoke in explanation, the house divided—For the previous question, 37. Against it 10. Majority 27.
[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.] Lord Sheffield rose to move for several addi-
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tional papers, which he thought further necessary to the illustration of this important subject. He should therefore first move an humble address to his majesty, requesting instructions might be given that there be laid before the house, a copy of the report of the board of trade, delivered in Feb. 1784, to the privy council.
Lord Hollandwould not object to the production of the paper, but could not help observing it was in consequence of that very report that those measures were taken, which, for three years subsequent to that period, produced the most calamitous consequences in the West-Indies. He could not conceive, besides, that the opinions of the lords of trade in 1784, could, upon this question, be of much use in 1806. He objected also to the practice adopted by the noble lord of moving for papers relating to particular years without moving for those respecting the intermediate years.
Lord Sheffieldcontended, that this and many other papers which he still had to move for, would explain the state of that trade at different periods, and the various opinions that were entertained of its tendency.—After some conversation, the motion was agreed to, and the noble lord proceeded to move for a similar report delivered in Jan. 1791, and for a copy of all the memorials presented at different times since 1801, against suspensions of the navigation laws.
Lord Aucklanddeclared, that not one of the papers moved for by the noble lord had the least relation whatever to the object of the bill before the house. The object of that bill, he wished once for all to declare, seemed to be wholly misunderstood by the noble lord. It by no means intended the introduction of any change in the navigation laws; its whole object was to make that lawful which was now unlawful, and to make ministers responsible instead of their subordinate servants. As to the papers, they were so voluminous, that it would employ 60 clerks, for mouths to prepare them, which would prove a serious derangement to public business, without mentioning the expence attending the production of them. If it was intended to create delay by moving for such volumes; that intention would be frustrated, for he was determined to proceed in the 2d reading of that bill, without waiting for any such papers.
Lord Sheffieldwished only for an extract; but this was also objected to, unless the noble lord would point out some particular part to be extracted.
Lord Aucklandtook the opportunity of declaring, that he would not consent to postpone the 2d reading of the bill on account of the papers moved for by the noble lord.
Lord Hollandsuggested, whether the noble lord had not better move, amongst other voluminous works, for Anderson's History of Commerce and Postlethwaite's Dictionary.—After some further conversation the motion was negatived.
Lord Sheffieldthen moved for copies of all memorials and petitions presented to the board of trade since 1801, relative to suspensions of the navigation act.
Lord Aucklandobjected also to this motion, as the memorials (there were no petitions) would form several folio volumes, and were of no consequence to the question. Any of the memorialists, who now thought it necessary, might petition the house against the bill.—The motion was negatived.