Sitting of 16 April 1806

MINUTES.
Lord Templebrought up a petition from Mr. Lyon, the agent for the island of Jamaica, against the bill to prevent the Importation of Slaves into such of our colonies and settlements in the West Indies, as have been surrendered to his majesty during the present war. His lordship said, that the petition had been put into his hands, and he therefore thought it adviseable to present it; but he begged it to be understood, that in so doing, he did not pledge himself at all on the subject matter of it. The petition was ordered to lie on the table till the second reading of the bill, and that the petitioners should be heard, by counsel, against the said bill, if they thought fit.—Mr. Mitford, from the exchequer in Scotland, presented an account of Grants made out of forfeited Estates in Scotland, and the Balances due out of the same. Also, an account of all Malt chargeable with duty in Scotland.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, the house resolved into a Committee of Supply, in which the usual Annual Votes for Miscellaneous Services were agreed to.—The house having resolved into a Committee of Ways and Means, Mr. Vansittart, with a view to the object of which he had given notice yesterday, namely, that of making a proportionate Addition to the Duty upon East and West India Sugar, moved, that an additional Duty of 1s. per cwt. should be imposed upon East-India Sugar imported. And also, that upon the exportation of the same, a drawback should be allowed of, equal amount.

DEBTS OF THE NABOBS OF ARCOT.
Mr. Francis,pursuant to his notice on a former day, rose to bring forward his motion for the production of papers respecting the Debts of the Nabobs of Arcot. But, before he proceeded to intro-
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duce his motion, he begged leave to put to the hon. gent. behind him (Mr. Hobhouse) a question or two, the answers to which might probably save some trouble. As it appeared that an agreement hart been entered into between the directors of the India company and the creditors of the Nabob of Arcot, in consequence of which a commission had been appointed; he wished to know who were the persons forming that commission, and by whom they were to be paid? Not having been able to attend the house on Monday, when the hon. gent. to whom he referred, brought forward his bill, he was under the necessity of applying for more information upon this subject than perhaps other gentlemen required. He wished to hear it accounted for, why the hon. member should have been the person to bring forward this measure, particularly as he understood him to have stated that he accepted the office very unwillingly, and but yielded to the importunity of others?
Mr. Hobhousesaid, it was his desire that the hon. gent. should be most fully and satisfactorily informed upon this subject. The hon. gent. had not been present when he had first stated his proposition, and moved for leave to bring in the bill, or his present question would not have been necessary. The commissioners, he said, consisted of three persons; namely, he (Mr. Hobhouse), a Mr. Horner, who was nominated in consequence of an hon. gent. Mr. Ryder, having withdrawn himself from the commission, and Mr. Cockburne: the former was a gent. conversant in the law; and the latter an old servant of the India company, and much experienced in India affairs. With respect to the authority for their appointment, it was made by the directors of the East-India company, in concurrence with the creditors. With regard to their remuneration, it was intended to be according to the habit of parliamentary commissions, namely, of that of the quantum meruit, when the business should be gone through. Hoping that this answer to the hon. gent.'s questions would prove satisfactory, he had only to assure him, that if the papers for which he intended to move were of the nature which he was taught to understand, his motion should meet, on his part, no resistance.
Mr. Francisthanked the hon. gent. for the very candid and satisfactory answer be had been pleased to give to his question. He confessed, that from the information which he bad just received from the hon.

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gent. he was under a mistake, for he had supposed that Mr. Fordyce was at the head of this commission; but he now found that that gent. was at the head of the creditors. There was something in this transaction, altogether, which was well deserving of, and to which he begged, the particular attention of,the house. Why it should have found its way into the house at all, but still more why it was entertained, why it obtained a footing, he could account for on satisfactory ground. Perhaps it was owing, to the operation of interest, but sure he was that there was something very like contrivance about it. For himself, he could affirm that he never had an idea that any such proposition was in contemplation until he heard of the notice, just before the recess, of a motion for leave to bring in the bill. He knew nothing of a committee sitting upon the subject, and there were many others as well as he, whom the knowledge of that circumstance had entirely escaped until the time be alluded to. Then, as to the subsequent course of the hon. gent. The very day after the recess, the first upon which the report of the committee was deliverable, the hon. gent. came forward before, he (Mr. F.) would venture to say, five members of the house had read the report, and proposed a motion grounded upon it. This mode of proceeding no one could deny to be rather precipitate, upon a subject particularly of so much importance. To obtain a little more deliberation as to a circumstance which gentlemen were much mistaken if they supposed of inconsiderable interest, was the motive which induced him to call the attention of the house to the motions with which he meant to conclude. That all the presidencies in India were in great distress, was notorious. The house had the authority of lord Cornwallis for believing that the presidency of Madras was most seriously embarrassed; and that this, with the other presidencies, was running in debt as fast as money could be had to borrow. Into these general distresses, however, he did not at present propose to enter, nor should he go into any discussion about the general state of India. But he would confine himself to the particular object he had in view, which, he wished it to be understood, had no connection with any other question respecting India, which was before the house. Lord Wellesley had, he believed, nothing whatever to do with it. It referred principally to a consideration of
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our assets in India, and how far these assets were competent to meet the claims upon them. For it was material for parliament always to bear in mind, that what the India company could not discharge, would ultimately fall upon the finances of this country. Therefore it behoved the house carefully to examine every claim upon the resources of that company. He lamented that more of his majesty's ministers were not present at the discussion of a question of this nature, and that those who were present did not give to the question the attention which it deserved—(there was at the time some conversation upon the treasury bench). Still, however, he would persist in his purpose; and he promised those gentlemen that they would speedily feel that this subject must be attended to. At all events he would not fail to attend to it: for he was not one of those who could be sunk or broken down by the desertion or inconsistency of any set of men.—Reverting to the subject to which he was about to attract the notice of the house, the hon. member remarked upon the equivocal character of these frequent claims upon the Nabob of Arcot. A great deal of such claims had been already paid. After the payment of several millions (five or six), it was naturally supposed that no more debts were to be heard of. But still some pretended creditors started up. If such pretensions were attended to, he really believed that the whole revenue of the Carnatic would be insufficient to answer them; and if not, then they must come upon this country. He therefore cautioned the house to pause upon a transaction, of the character of which scarcely any one who heard him could be wholly ignorant; for every one must remember something of the Nabob of Arcot's debts; it was a tolerably notorious topic. That distinguished statesman, Mr. Burke, had many years since very properly stated his opinion, that a combination of evidence served to shew that sums had been distributed for a course of years, in the name of the old Nabob of Arcot, to the servants of the East-India company, in a most scandalous manner, and that there was strong reason to suspect that most part of the debts demanded were wholly fictitious. And that great orator sheaved that, even if these debts were really due, they were, from their amount, calculated to excite alarm, as the affairs of the company were so distressed, as to be unequal to their liquidation. This the house

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would recollect was in the year 1784, when he situation of the India company was almost prosperity itself, compared to what it was at present. But even then, as Mr. Burke remarked, the company's servants 'were in affluence, while the company itself was very much embarrassed. Yet although such was the case, although the company's servants were possessed of no less than 10 millions, still their claims of three millions of debt upon our subsidiary princes were paid off by order of the board of control, against the strongest remonstrances from the court of directors, seconded by the opinion of lord Macartney. This Served to shew what might be done through the interest of individuals, notwithstanding this distress of the company's affairs; and as bearing very closely upon the present question, he requested gentlemen to look at the speech of Mr. Burke, to which he referred, and which, independently of its relevancy upon this occasion, must be read with pleasure by every man of taste; for certainly among all the productions of ancient and modern eloquence, nothing could be found worthy to be put in comparison with it. The hon. gent. adverting to the bill in progress through the house, observed, that it was not accompanied by any specification whatever of the amount or nature of the debts to which it was meant to apply. This specification it was his wish to obtain. Seeing that so many millions had been already paid on this score, and that the more these claims were paid, the more they seemed to grow, he desired at once to ascertain their precise extent; that knowledge attained, questions would then arise whether such claims were made by bonâ fide creditors or not; whether any, and which of them, should be paid; whether, in a word, under all the circumstance, that money should be granted to such claimants which ought to be applied to the support of our army and navy? That no equitable demands were to be found among those brought forward, he was not prepared to say. But, before any were acceded to, the house should be made acquainted with the whole amount. It would be unsafe to proceed without such knowledge, for if a comparatively small sum were at first granted, it would be difficult to say how far the house might be led upon the principles of that grant. It might not be know when to stop, and therefore he thought it best to make a stand in limine. The hon. gent. took occasion to appeal to
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the house and the country, upon the want of assistance he had experienced from those who ought to be forward, in consistency, to support his endeavours to procure a full investigation of the affairs of India. In this instance particularly there were many for whose presence and co-operation he had a right to look; among these was the respectable member for Norwich (Mr. W. Smith), whom he did not then see in his place, and from whom much useful information could be had upon the subject of India. There was another distinguished person whose aid he was entitled to expect—he meant the Treasurer of the Navy (Mr. Sheridan). In regretting the general absence of that right hon. gent. he was sure he only expressed the common feeling of the house. He lamented his absence for many reasons, but principally on account of the loss which the cause of India sustained in consequence. He most particularly wished that this right hon. gent. was more frequently visible in his place in that house, and us he had not the pleasure of seeing him there or elsewhere, he hoped that his wish would be conveyed to him, and induce him to attend. He trusted that the right hon. gent.'s becoming a minister was not to deprive that house of the advantage and pleasure which his abilities were capable of affording. The house had, unfortunately, for a considerable time but very seldom seen the light of his countenance. But it was to be expected that such absence would not long continue. He could not suffer himself to apprehend that that right hon. gent. would long decline to advocate the cause of justice. No. His mind and his feelings were too strongly attached to that cause to refuse it his aid, and his powers to serve it were still undiminished. For he would not believe that the volcano of that right hon. gent.'s genius could yet be burned out. After repeating, his sincere regret for the absence of Mr. Sheridan, because he highly respected his talents and integrity, and because he would much value his assistance, the hon. member concluded with moving an "Account of all monies which have been paid to the private creditors of the Nabobs of the Carnatic since the passing of the act of the 24th of his present majesty, containing the names of the individuals to whom, or on whose account, the same have been paid, the several periods when the debts were contracted, and when paid, and distinguishing the several classes of debts culled. the registered

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debts, the cavalry loan, and the consolidated debt of 1777; and also distinguishing, the principal of the said debts from the interest claimed or accruing thereon." This he thought the more necessary, as it appeared from the, speech of the noble lord opposite to him (lord Castlereagh), which was afterwards published by him, (see vol. ii, p. 1158.) that the interest-money had been converted into principal, which was one principal cause of the great increase of the debt.
Mr. Paull,in seconding the motion, cautioned the house to beware how they sanctioned the principle upon which the bill of the hon. gent. (Mr. Hobhouse) was founded, as, if dim principle were established, claimants would, no doubt, immediately come forward for above 3 millions, alledged to be due in the same way from the Nabob of Oude and other native princes in India.
Mr. Whitshed Keeneseconded the motion; he said, he believed he could be able to throw some light on the causes which led to involve the Nabob of the Carnatic in such embarrassments and claims of debt from the company's servants. Having the honour of an early and long intimacy with lord Macartney, who was, at one time, sent out as governor to Madras, that noble lord, after his return to Europe, had told him, that he had scarcely reached the seat of his government 24 hours, when he received a message from the Nabob, requesting to see him: the noble lord accordingly paid an immediate visit, and was astonished to find it was for the purpose of being presented by the Nabob with a sum of money adequate to 30,000 l. with proportionate tenders to the officers of his suite. Lord Macartney expressed much astonishment, and declined accepting the money, at the same time wishing to know the motives that induced such an offer: he was told by the Nabob, that it was quite a customary present to every new governor; had never been before refused; that there was no violation of propriety whatever in accepting it; and the offer was repeated, with a pressing request to take it, as it was considered a proper compliment to the head of the British Government, whom, ever since the taking of Pondicherry, he considered as his protector against the French. Lord Macartney, however, still persisted in his refusal, assuring the Nabob, at the same time, of his determination to render him every service and
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protection in his power, as earnestly as if he had accepted his present. But what was the result of this generous, upright, and exemplary integrity and independence of that noble lord to himself? Why, that his conduct was every where reprobated and reviled by the servants of the Company, and every pains taken to slander, misrepresent, and vilify him, for venturing such an innovation upon the system they had so long established; and lord Macartney resigned a government which he felt untenable, consistently with the feelings of a man of honour. Had the hon. gent. heartily approved the system of investigation so earnestly recommended by the hon. mover, and observed, that, though it might visit with compunctious feelings the bosoms and apprehensions of some men, who had, by a corrupt abuse of their mission in India, amassed rapidly enormous fortunes, those who had made an honourable and upright use of their authority there, had no terrors to meet, no qualms to be excited by the most scrutinous investigation: "Let the galled jades wince; their withers were unwrung."
Mr. Hiley Addingtonsaid, he had not the slightest disposition to oppose the motion of the hon. gent.; on the contrary, he wished to grant him the papers he required. He was very glad to observe, that the hon. gent., notwithstanding the declaration he had a short time since made, that he would decline all farther interference with India questions, seemed of late rather disposed to promote investigation into India affairs. He rejoiced at the circumstance; because, from the hon. gent.'s great knowledge and extensive experience upon India subjects, he was certainly competent to throw very important lights upon such subjects, and bring them home with more effect to the attention of the house and the public; which might have the good effect of rendering the servants of the company in India less lax in their duties. But his purpose for rising now was, to set the hon, member right in his conception of the bill, the true objects of which he seemed wholly to misapprehend. His hon. friend had not brought forward his bill with the precipitancy imputed to him, but had given fair notice of every proceeding with respect to it; and to his certain knowledge, the report upon which the bill was founded was delivered to members at their residence on the Friday before the bill was introduced. The bill was not a call on parliament to sanction

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the claims of the creditors of the Nabob of the Carnatic, nor to appoint any commissioners: those commissioners had been already appointed between the parties at issue, namely, the directors and the claiming creditors; and the commissioners, with an earnest view to the strict ends of justice, had been desirous of examining the parties brought before them on oath; which, however, it was found they were not legally authorised to tender. It was suggested then, that the parties might be examined upon their voluntary oaths; but, on consultation with eminent law authorities, it was found that this mode also was objectionable. The present bill, therefore, only called upon the authority of parliament to invest the commissioners with power to administer oaths for the purpose of their enquiry, and to render parties swearing falsely liable to punishment for perjury. It was not because the company wished any sanction from parliament to the authority of the commissioners to enquire, for to that they were already legally authorised, but with a view to procure for them such authority as should best tend to obtain that justice: not to evade the payment of debts justly due, but to separate just claims from fraudulent ones. The hon. gent. had said, his hon. friend had not voluntarily undertaken this business, but had been induced by importunity to bring forward this bill. It was certainly true, his hon. friend had expressed great unwillingness to interfere in this business, lest he should be deemed an interested party; but his known talents, good sense, and integrity, made it extremely desirable that a person of such a description should take an active part in the business, and he was induced by earnest entreaty to forego his scruples, and assume the part he had taken with so much advantage to the object proposed. In no instance had he betrayed the smallest inclination to precipitate the bill; on the contrary, he had set out with declaring his wish, that every member in the house should have the fullest information on the subject, and the fullest time that could be desired for considering it; and he was convinced, that if the hon. member now wished to postpone the further proceeding on this bill to a more distant day, his hon. friend would concur with the utmost readiness.
Lord Castlereaghdescribed the purview of the bill, in the same light precisely as the last right hon. gent. He said that,
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with a very considerable portion of just claims in this case, there was blended an enormous one of unjust, unfounded, and fraudulent claims; and it was for the purpose of enabling the Commissioners to discriminate, that the bill was desired. The discharge of the just debts would be productive of important advantages to the company, and it was, therefore, desirable to ascertain them, in order to a speedy settlement; and, with respect to the apprehensions expressed by the hon. member, that those debts might ultimately form claims upon parliament, the idea was unfounded. The debts were charged upon the revenues of the Carnatic; whatever those revenues annually produced over the interest, would go to a sinking fund towards clearing off the principal, and when that-was paid off, the whole revenues would revert to the company.
Mr. Serjeant Best observed, that the deed for the settlement of the claims under consideration, was so contrived as to hold out the prospect of doing too little, if any thing, for these who had equitable claims, and of doing too much for those whose claims were fraudulent. Many of the demands under consideration were, he contended, completely illegal, as they referred to sums lent against a positive act of parliament.
Mr. Hobhousesaid, that after the statement made by his right hon. friend (Mr. H. Addington) it was scarcely necessary for him to animadvert upon the charge preferred against him, as a commissioner, for having introduced this measure to parliament. The explanation which his right hon. friend had given, he trusted, would be satisfactory to the house; and, if so, he should be at his ease.—There was, however, another accusation made by the hon. gent. (Mr. Francis), against him, which it was impossible for him to pass over in silence. He had been accused of hurrying this measure, and endeavouring to take the house by surprise. The hon. gent. had said that the printed report and papers were not delivered to the members until the moment before the subject was opened on Monday last. Here the hon. gent. was under a mistake. They were delivered at the houses of the embers early on Friday morning in the last week so that nearly 4 days were allowed for the examination of a very small collection of papers.—The house having honoured him with their attention on the general subject for so long a time on

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a former night, he should not now have taken any part in the discussion, but for some observations which fell from his learned friend near him (Mr. Serjeant Best). His learned friend had insisted that the agreement between the creditors and the East-India co. was not founded on fair principles, because the terms were too hard and severe against the real creditor, while to the fictitious, all which he obtained would be gain. It did not appear to him that this argument was entitled to great weight. If the real creditor became a party to the deed, he had no right to complain of terms, for his execution of it proceeded from his own choice. If he declined to accept it, the deed did not stand in his way. He was, as before its existence, at liberty to pursue any means of recovering his debt, no remedy was taken away from him; the same redress was open to him. This alternative considered, is learned friend, he thought, would not be inclined to risk the same observation a second time. His learned friend had, also, spoken of the act of 1797, which prohibits the servants of the company from engaging in loans to the native princes of India. Although such loans were a violation of the orders of the company, yet that act, by prohibiting them, admitted their previous legality. Subsequently to the passing of that statute, if any person engaged in such loans, without the previous sanction of the court of directors, or the governor in council of one of the company's governments, the contract was void, and the party was guilty of a misdemeanour. The commissioners, though unrestricted in this respect by the deed, could allow no claim contrary to the statute.—After a few more remarks, by Mr. Serjeant Best and lord Castlereagh, the motion was agreed to.
Mr. Francisthen said, that in prefacing his second motion, he should intrude but a few minutes on the patience of the house. In what he had said, he had not entered into the merits of the bill, good or bad. He had indeed stated, that the hon. gent. seemed to him to have carried on the measure with precipitancy; but that, he now agreed, had been sufficiently accounted for. As to his having insinuated that the hon. gent. was himself interested in the measure, he begged it to be understood that he had not insinuated, but had expressly stated, that he did not think the situation of a member of such a committee and of a member of this house exactly
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compatible; and what had been stated as to the scruples entertained by the hon. gent, himself, as to the propriety of the bill originating with him, seemed to shew that he himself was not exactly satisfied that two such characters ought to be united in the same person. The noble lord opposite had admitted that many of the claims made against the Nabob had no existence in truth, of course that there were here enormous frauds to guard against. He was certain that all the persons who at present formed the court of directors were men of honour and probity, but he could not say what they might be 20 years hence. It could not be said there never was an instance of a man's sacrificing the interest of any corporate body with which he might be connected to individual feelings. All he contended for was, that the thing was possible. As to the validity of many of the debts, he had to state a fact, that a house of great eminence lately failed at Madras, among whose assets was found a paper, amounting to 10 lacks of pagodas, of the Nabob of Arcot's. The house had employed the money entrusted to them in buying up the paper of this prince, which, from being a drug, worth next to nothing, and which in all probability did not cost more than 2d. in the pound, would, if admitted without proper enquiry, produce a fortune to the holders. This, he thought deserved serious attention. He had used the freedom, in making his former motion, to call the particular attention of certain individual members to the business. He now begged, in addition, to request to it the attention and assistance of the honourable directors, and particularly of their respectable chairman whom he now saw in the house, who, he hoped, would, if possible, attend and give his assistance in the discussion. As to an observation by an hon. gent. (Mr. Addington), he had to state that he never did say that he would not, in future, attend to Indian affairs, although what he did say on that occasion had been misrepresented out of doors. He had put what he then said on record, (see. p. 394), and to that he referred. He then concluded by moving for an account of the several debts now due or demandable from the said Nabobs, distinguishing as in the former motion.
Mr. Grantdeclared that he had no objection to any scrutiny of the kind. No person could be less interested in it, personally, than he and the other members of

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the court of directors. The interfering in the business originally, was very far from being a favourite with the directors, and if they could, they would have had nothing to do with it. They only believed that there was actually something due to the creditors, and all their wish was that this should be paid. Such was the object of the bill. That it could have the effect of making a rise in the value of the debts, he could not conceive. The very reverse must have been the case. It reduced the annuities at the outset, to the one-half, by making the interest 6 instead of 12 per cent.; and the principal must have experienced a proportional depreciations.—The motion was then put and agreed to.

MINUTES.
Lord Grenvillemoved to send a message to the Commons, informing them that his majesty had been graciously pleased, in pursuance of an address of that House, to give directions for fitting up a place proper in Westminster-Hall for the Trial of Lord Viscount Melville. Ordered.—Lord Grenville adverted to the motion which had been formerly agreed to by the house, for the attendance of Witnesses on the 29th of April, relative to the charges against Mr. Justice Fox, and observed that it would be impossible for the house to proceed at the same time on the trial of lord Melville, and in the examination of the charges against Mr. Justice Fox. He therefore moved to discharge the order, and renew it for Monday, the 19th of May. The marquis of Abercorn assented to the motion; which was agreed to.—Lord Holland, after referring to the numerous Petitions on the table from the Debtors in the different prisons, praying for relief, stated that he did not think it necessary to detain their lordships by entering into any discussion upon the subject;

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he should merely observe, that he had prepared a bill for the relief of that description of persons, which was framed in the same manner as former bills of that nature. He intended to propose, that the bill should be printed, and that it should be read a second time as soon as possible after the prints were ready. His lordship presented the bill, which was read a first tune, and ordered to be printed. On the motion of the noble lord, several accounts were ordered of the number of persons confined for Debt in different prisons.