Sitting of 31 May 1805

MINUTES.
A new writ was ordered on the motion of lord Ossulstone, for the borough of Shrewsbury, in the room of sir W. Pulteney, bart. deceased.—Mr. Foster, by order of his majesty, in compliance with an address of the house, presented, an account of the estimates of the expences of the board of first fruits in Ireland; also An estimate of the expences for the improvement of the harbour of Howth, near Dublin. Ordered to lie on the table.—The Broadstairs Harbour Improvement bill was read a third time and passed.—Lord Archi-
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bald Hamilton brought up the report of the committee, on t e petitions against the corn bill, which were ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. The noble lord also gave notice of a motion for an early day, on the subject of the matter contained in the report.—Colonel Craufurd moved for the following accounts respecting the state of the regular army, to the production of which he understood no objection would be made. 1st, An account of the total effective strength of the regular army on the 1st of May, 1805. This he wished to have only in the aggregate, lest any objection should be made to the disclosure of the detail of distribution. 2d, A return of the number of men that had been raised by the additional force bill, in the few months from the 1st of January, to the 30th of April, 1805, specifying the number raised by the parishes, and by recruiting. 3d, An account of the number of men raised by the ordinary recruiting within the same period. 4th, An account of the casualties in the regular troops on the home establishment, within the same period; and, 5th, An account of the casualties in the foreign stations within the last four months, for which returns have been received at the adjutant-general's office. These accounts were severally ordered. Colonel Craufurd then gave notice, that on an early day after the papers should be laid before the house, he should bring forward a motion on the subject. After a few observations from the chancellor of the exchequer and colonel Craufurd, the motion was fixed for Thursday next.—Mr. Jeffery having mentioned in his motion of yesterday certain papers which were of importance to the full investigation of the subject to which his former motions referred, without any preface moved, that there, be laid before the house, a copy of the letter of sir A. S. Hamond to earl St. Vincent, dated Dec. 28, 1802; also a copy of the answer to the same from earl St. Vincent to sir A. S. Hamond, dated Dec. 29, 1805. Ordered.—On the motion of lord Henry Petty, the returns to the order of a former day, relative to certain sums paid by the receiver-general of the land-tax in Scotland, were ordered to be presented forthwith.—On the motion of sir W. Elford, pursuant to notice, an account was ordered of the quantity of timber of a certain description that had been used in his majesty's dock-yards for ships of the line from the year 1785 to 1805 Inclusive.—On the motion of the

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chancellor of the exchequer, the house resolved itself into a committee of ways and means, Mr. Alexander in the chair. On the motion of the chancellor of the exchequer it was resolved, that from the success of the system pursued last year, it was expedient that a lottery to consist of 90,000 tickets, producing 900,0001. at the rate of 10l. per ticket, should be carried into execution in three lotteries for the present year, and that the lords of the treasury should be empowered to contract for any number of tickets for each, and to make such regulations as they should think fit, relative to the amount of prizes drawn. Ordered.—It was also resolved, that the charges of allowances to adjutants and serjeant majors of the British militia, and the allowance to British militia subaltern officers, should be defrayed out of the land-tax, and that the charges of the pay and clothing of the militia of Ireland should be defrayed out of the consolidated fund of Ireland. On the house being resumed, the report was ordered to be received on Wednesday.—The Universities Advowson bill was ordered to be read a third time this day se'nnight.—The Irish Excise and Customs bill, was read a third time and passed.—On the motion of Mr. Huskisson, leave was given to bring in a bill to amend the act of the 43d of his majesty, chap. 99, relative to the receiver-general of the duties of assessed taxes. The amendments referred to two points: first, to enable the commissioners of taxes in the different counties to administer the oath to the receivers, which, as the law now stood, was required to be taken before one of the barons of the exchequer; and 2dly, to supply an omission in that bill, by directing the receivers to repay the surcharges, now required to be paid in course, if, on appeal to the judges, the surcharges should be reversed.—The house, on the motion of Mr.Vansittart, went into a committee on the Dublin Paving bill, and the blanks having been filled up, the house was resumed, the report was brought up, the bill, as amended, ordered to be printed, and the report ordered to be taken into further consideration on Monday se'nnight. —Mr. Sturges Bourne brought up the report of the Irish Distilleries bill, which was recommitted, when the report was received, and after some conversation the amendments were agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Wednesday. —After a short conversation between Mr.
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Vansittart, Mr. Latouche, and Mr. Alexander, the Dublin Police bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Wednesday. —Mr. Huskisson gave notice, that on Wednesday he would move, that the report of the coal committee be referred to a committee of the whole house, with an intention of moving in that committee that a certain quantity of coals be allowed to be brought to London by the Paddington canal.

CAMBERWELL WATERWORKS BILL.
Sir John Frederick brought up the report of the committee on the South London Water-works bill. The report which stated only that the allegations of the preamble of the bill had not been proved, having been read, the hon. baronet moved that it do lie on the table.
Mr. Tierney observed, that the committee had not made any report of the bill, but merely that the preamble had not been proved; and contended, that in compliance with the forms and proceedings of the house, some report should. have been made on the bill itself. The committee had endeavoured to get rid of the bill altogether, by adjourning for six weeks, and afterwards by negativing the preamble and two material clauses, when directed by the house to proceed with the bill. He was at a loss what course to take on the occasion, and appealed to the chair for instruction.
The Speaker calling the attention of the house to the subject, stated, that the committee to whom the bill had been committed, having reported to the house, there was in form a report of it before the house. It would, however, be competent to any other member who disapproved of the report of the committee, either to move to negative the present motion for the purpose of proposing clauses on the report which might appear to him necessary to perfect the bill, or should that in his view be impracticable, by proposing clauses to move that the bill be recommitted, which would leave it in a state as if nothing had been previously done in a committee, A discussion of some length took place, during which the motion that the report do lie on the table, was negatived; and on Mr. Tierney's moving that the report be taken into consideration on Wednesday next, an amendment was moved by Mr. Baldwin, that it be taken into further consideration this day three months, on which a division took place. For the original

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motion 9; for the amendment 51;majority 42.—The bill is ofcourse lost this session.

CONDUCT OF ADMIRAL SIR JOHN DUCKWORTH.
Colonel Wood observed, that in consequence of something happened since he had fixed his notice of a motion relative to the proceedings of the court martial on this officer for this day, he was induced to postpone his motion to this day se'nnight.
Mr. Baker was of opinion that the hon. gent. would not only be disposed to defer the motion to which he had adverted, but upon consideration would be induced not to bring forward a motion of so extraordinary a nature at all. He was sure that no such motion ought to be made but upon the strongest grounds.
Colonel Wood had considered the matter with the most serious attention, and was convinced that he had the strongest grounds for his motion, both with respect to the proceedings of the court martial and the conduct of the hon. admiral alluded to. It was to accommodate the minister of the country, who wished to have time to consider the propriety of the Motion, that he had proposed to defer it.

CONDUCT OF THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER.
Mr. Henry Lascelles said, he felt sorry at not seeing the hon. gent. (Mr. Whitbread) who had given notice of a motion for Tuesday se'nnight, in his place. He had himself yesterday, on a supposition that the part of the report of the committee on the tenth report, which related to the conduct of the chancellor of the exchequer, would not require much time for consideration, stated his intention to bring the question forward at an earlier day than that proposed by the hon. gent. But when he had stated this intention, he was not aware of the interference of the holidays, and that Many gentlemen might not have the report in their hands till Wednesday. One day's consideration of the report could not be sufficient, and he therefore had risen to state, that it was not his intention to bring the subject forward as he had proposed. His own mind, however,was fully made up on the subject; and he had reason to believe, that many members of the committee thought with him. If therefore, the resolutions which the hon. gent. meant to propose to the house should be of a criminating nature, he was determined, if not anticipated by some member of the
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committee, better qualified by talents and abilities for the occasion, to move resolutions of a nature directly the reverse of those of the hon. gentleman.

GROWTH OF TIMBER.
Sir William Dolben regretted that there should be found such a lamentable deficiency of timber, the growth of Britain, not merely for domestic purposes, nut even fot the supply of our navy. He thought that no enclosure should be allowed without making it compulsory on those who were to be benefited by it, to plant a certain quantity of timber. He should, therefore, move for a committee to take into consideration the state of growing timber in this country, and he expected the assistance of every country and county member on this point.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, while he admitted the importance of the subject, was compelled to observe, that the only mode Of increasing timber, recommended in the observations of the hon. baronet, was one which was compulsory, but which was not reconcileable to sound policy and expediency
Sir W. DOlben considered all enclosures as equally compulsory in principle. They were never agreed to without dissentients, Who could not have their land as they pleased, but were obliged to submit. He saw no hardship, in the same rule, in making men who were engaged in enclosures for their private benefit, do something for the public advantage also. An acre in fifty was not too much to require in such a case.
Sir W. Elford objected to the principle laid down by the hon. baronet.
Admiral Markham thought that the subject was a very important one. If this were not a proper time to discuss it, such a time must soon arrive. He spoke as an eye-Witness. He had seen the lamentable situation in which we were sometimes placed, from the want of sufficient British timber. There was a great deal to enquire into. Perhaps the matter ought to be taken up in a more enlarged sense than was now proposed. Beside the consideration of the royal docks, there was not as Yet an absolute dearth, but there soon Would be one. Something might possibly be done to prevent the unnecessary consumption of timber, especially oak timber, and more regulations passed concerning export and duty, as the whole of the subject required full consideration.—The motion was negatived.

CONDUCT OF SIR HOME POPHAM.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, after a few observations, took notice of the report from the committee, stating the answer of the house of lords to the application for leave to examine lord St. Vincent before the committee; that committee had wished to examine his lordship on sundry points respecting Mr. D E. Bartholomew and other matters, to ascertain how far his lordship had concurred in those proceedings. He believed it would not he denied, that it was unusual for their lordships to allow any noble lord to be examined by that house, on any point which might have a tendency to criminate himself. He conceived that the most regular mode, in every view of the business, would be, to move that this report be re-committed to the same committee.
Mr. Kianaird said, that it was resolved, by a large majority in the committee, to present this report as it now stood, to the house. The committee did not think it right to call on his lordship as a party, though possibly the lords might think some part of the evidence had a tendency to criminate his lordship: they did not think it fit to call upon his lordship as judges. He would rather send back the report to the committee, with instructions as to the sort of answer to be given to their lordships, whether specific or otherwise. He should rather, under these circumstances, request the attendance of Lord St. Vincent as a witness, that, being subject to their lordships' limitations, as in the case of lord Melville, in whose case their lordships put that wide interpretation upon the request, that it might tend to matters to criminate the noble lord.
Sir John Stewart said, it was at first intended to examine Lord St. Vincent merely as a witness, but matters afterwards came before the committee, that rendered the attendance of his lordship in that view only, impracticable.
Sir W. Burroughs said, he coincided with what had fallen from the hon. baronet. He thought many parts of the evidence such as the noble earl would not wish to go to the public as they stood, and he wished to give his lordship an opportunity of correcting them. If the house thought they ought not to persist in the examination, it was better now to let it rest.
The Speaker said, the custom of the house was, not to instruct the committee as to their report; but the committee
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were to gather from the sense of the house, in its proceedings, what method they ought to pursue.—The report was re-committed to the same committee.—Adjourned to Wednesday.

CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX
The order of the day being read, for the house to resolve itself into a committee on the matters respecting Mr. judge, Fox; that venerable person, accompanied by his counsel, Mr. Adam and Mr. Nolan, immediately entered the house, where Mr. justice Fox was placed in a chair below the bar, habited in his judicial robes. Mr. Adam, as soon as the charges contained in the address were read at the table, requested permission to offer a few observations to their lordships, on the part of his learned client. He adverted to the peculiar situation in which the learned judge was placed, a state of accusation before the highest and most august tribunal in the country; a proceeding, forming a case of the greatest importance in itself, and still more important from its perfect novelty, and the consideration of its going to form a precedent for future ages. He then adverted to the whole course of the proceedings, from the period of their having first been instituted, by the first petition presented by a noble marquis, exactly that day twelvemonth to the present moment. He alluded to the alterations which had been made from time to time in the matters of charge; which were not only, to a certain extent, new modelled, but had even new matter, and such very recently added to them. There had been new facts introduced, he said, and charged in a different way. The learned counsel then proceeded to advert to the proceedings upon the case,

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in the out-doors committee of their lordships; a proceeding instituted from the best and purest motives; but, in this their lordships were placed, he observed, in the situation of a grand jury. The proceedings, in a certain point of view, may be regarded as ex parte; and he adverted to the advantages which would accrue to the accusing parties, against his learned client, were he not admitted to the knowledge of those proceedings. What he should have humbly to request Of their lordships was, that his learned client should be furnished with a copy of those proceedings, of which he was necessarily in the dark. The novelty of the case added to its extreme importance; and though no precedent obtained to guide their lordships' proceedings, yet, in such a case, he submitted, that the dictates of the common law, and the custom of judicial proceedings, should be allowed, to furnish some light. He expatiated upon the distinct nature of grand and petit juries; of those who were to find the accusation, and those who were to try the issue. Publicity was one of the essential attributes of justice. After most ably adverting to the circumstances of the case, and dwelling upon points calculated to illustrate and enforce it, the learned counsel concluded an eloquent and energetic speech, by submitting a request to the above effect, on the part of his learned client, who, he said, was prepared with a petition, if such was judged necessary by their lordships, for the purpose.
The Lord Chancellor then moved, that the counsel be ordered to withdraw; which having taken place, his lordship made a variety of observations on the proceeding, which had just taken place; and on part of what had fallen from the counsel. As to the proceeding requested on the part of the learned judge, it appeared to him only to involve a question of form. Among other points, he alluded to what had been advanced respecting the changes made in the matters of charge; these, he observed, might be made on various grounds, founded in the wisdom or discretion of those noble lords, who were engaged in the discussion, or who had brought the motion forward; the propriety, therefore, of advancing, that such had taken place, on any particular grounds, which any person may take for granted, he considered as very questionable.
Lord Grenville, When he considered the perfect novelty of what was then under
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discussion, would not offer an opinion upon the general case; yet it struck him as unobjectionable, and as a matter of justice, that the request made on the part of the learned judge should be complied with. He saw no difficulty in point of form; but even if some did prevail, it should yield to the more important dictates of justice; they should endeavour, as far as possible, to place the accuser and the accused on a footing of perfect equality. The previous committee was instituted on the best grounds, and in one point of view was meant as a check against persons in the important station of the learned judge, being lightly called upon to answer for their conduct before that house. The request appeared to him a matter of justice; but even were it to be considered as a matter of favour, whatever favour prevailed, should be preferable for the accused. To bring the question regularly before the committee, his lordship moved, that the chairman be instructed to move the house, that the committee appointed to investigate the matter alledged in charge against Mr. justice Fox be revived; that they may report to the house what evidence was given thereon, in order that the same may be communicated to Mr. justice Fox."
Lord Hawkesbury entertained no serious objection to complying with what was proposed. He, however, in adverting to the mode in which the proposition was made, supported the observations of his noble and learned friend on that part of the subject. He vindicated the proceedings which had hitherto obtained, from which the accusing parties had derived no advantage, but what, from the inherent nature of the case, was absolutely unavoidable.
Lord Auckland considered what had been proposed, as proper, just, and necessary. He had foreseen that such a proposition would be made. The previous investigation, in the out-doors committee, which was instituted for the advantage of the accused, would, if the present request was not complied with, operate as an engine of injustice against him. In support of these conclusions, his lordship adverted to some details of the proceeding. He thought the motion of the noble baron a good one; but still, were it amended by the omission of that part which mentions, "for the purpose of the same being communicated to Mr. justice Fox," it would be perfectly allot unobjectionable.
Lord Mulgrace, in delivering his senti-

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ments upon the subject, expressed his doubts whether the advantages alluded to Could accrue to the accusers. In illustration of which idea, he adverted to the close and secret nature of the proceedings of the committee.
Lord Grenville, in explanation, could not concur with his noble friend's idea, that the committee in question could in any degree be considered as a secret one. The noble baron also adverted to some of the proceedings therein.
The Lord Chancellor made some further observations upon the subject; he also expressed his doubts as to the advantages which could accrue from the proceedings which had hitherto taken place; but it should be recollected, that in cases of accusation in general, certain advantages lay, and unavoidably, with the prosecutor. He seemed to entertain doubts as to the propriety, considering the mode, of what was proposed; and he knew of no instance of copies of proceedings of the kind, being granted, on a similar application on the part of the accused.
Lord Auckland, in enforcing what he had before advanced upon the subject, expressed his opinion, that, in the present state of the case, it was necessary the request should be complied with. He argued shortly against the idea, that the committee in question was, in any sense, a secret one.—Some further conversation ensued, in the course of which, it was moved by one of their lordships, "that the chairman do leave the chair."—The questions were then put, on which the chairman was directed to leave the chair; and the house resuming, the resolution of the committee was reported to the house; in consequence, the committee were ordered to sit again on Wednesday next.—Adjourned.