Sitting of 27 May 1805

MINUTES
On the motion of sir J. Wrottesley a new writ was ordered for a member to server in parliament for the borough of Dornoc, Tain, and Dingwall, in the room of the hon. John Villiers, who has accepted the Chiltern hundreds.—Mr. Grey presented a petition from the gentlemen freeholders and electors of the county of Northumberland, congratulating the house on the votes of the 8th and 10th of April relative to the tenth naval report. The petition was ordered to lie on the table; as was also one from the inhabitants of the town and county of the town of Southampton. See vol. iv. p. 622, where the said petitions were inadvertently inserted.—Mr. Serjeant Best moved for leave to bring in a bill to amend an act of the 4th year of his present majesty, to prevent delay in proceedings relative to Bankrupts having the privilege of parliament granted.—The attorney general, pursuant to notice, moved for leave to bring in a bill to amend the act of last session, for facilitating the arrest of offenders escaping from one part of the united kingdom to another, or from one country to another. He had deferred this motion hitherto, lest it might appear, if he had brought it forward earlier, to be a prejudging of a case pending in the courts of the sister kingdom. That case had been decided, and therefore he felt himself at liberty to bring forward his measure. The object he had in view, was simply to enable a magistrate in Ireland who magistrate in England, to give the same bail as if the warrant had been issued in that country, and vice versa. The charge, that he had framed the measure of last session with a view to bring Mr. justice Johnson a prisoner to attend his trial in this country, would fall before a statement of a fact. The bill had been prepared by order of the secretary of state the preceding session, though, from the advanced stage of the session, it had obtained leave to bring in the bill some days previous to the conviction of Mr. Cobbett; and it was not till some days after, when the original manuscripts had been given up by Mr. Cobbett, the Mr. justice Johnson could be considered as the object of a prosecution, leave was given to bring in the bill.—Mr. Foster obtained leave to bring in a bill to
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continue the act for appointing commissioners of enquiry into fees, gratuities, perquisites, and emoluments in offices, in Ireland.—The report of the ballot for the committee on the 11th naval report was brought up; the following are the gentlemen chosen: lord Glenbervie. Geo. Canning, esq. lord Henry Petty, Robert Holt Leigh, esq. the right hon. Denis Browne, D. Giles, esq. Mr. Serjeant Best, Bragge Bathurst, esq. B. Hobhouse, esq. J. Campbell, esq. S. Barne, esq. C. W. Wynne, esq. C. S. Hawthorne, esq. R. Steele, esq. C. M. Ormsby, esq. P. Patten, esq. J. Kingston, esq. sir Robert Vaughan, bart. M. P. Andrews, esq. H. Joddrell, esq. lord Binning. Seven were empowered to be a quorum, and the committee was authorised to adjourn from time to time. Sir W. Elford, considering that to any man of common understanding the testimony of lord St. Vincent had been contradicted by the written documents existing in the correspondence between his Lordship, sir A. Hamond, and lord Buckinghamshire, gave notice that he should move tomorrow, that those papers should be referred to the said committee, and that they should report thereon.—On the motion of the chancellor of the exchequer, it was left to a select committee to draw up an answer to the message of the lords, desiring to be informed as to the reasons for requesting the attendance of earl St. Vincent to be examined as to the repairs of the Romney and La Sensible, commanded by sir H. Popham.—The attorney-general moved the order of the day, for taking into further consideration the report of the Stipendiary Curates' bill, when several new clauses were brought up, and amendments proposed, which produced a desultory conversation between the attorney-general, lord Porchester, Mr. I. H. Browne, &c. The bill was then ordered to be printed as amended, and read a third time on Thursday.—The Universities Advowson bill was committed. On the motion for the receiving of the report, Mr. Fellowes stated, as his objection to the bill, that it would remove the old men from the universities, and consequently allow too much liberty to the younger. The chancellor of the exchequer said, he hoped, in a future stage, he should be able to remove any objection that might be had to it. The report was then received, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Friday.—Mr. Rose brought up the Free Port bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read.

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a second time to-morrow.—The Dublin Paving bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday.—The reports of the Irish Stamp Duty bill, and Malt Duty bill, were severally received, and the bills ordered to be read a third time on Thursday.—The Irish Excise Licence bill was committed, and the report ordered to be received to morrow.—The report of the Paymaster General's Regulation bill was brought up, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Thursday.—The Irish Election bill was read a third time and passed.—The Post Horse Farming Duty bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.— Colonel Stanley brought up the report of the committee to whom the claims of the Duke of Atholl had been referred, and moved that it should be taken into consideration on Thursday next. A very long conversation took place upon Mr. Curwen's moving as an amendment, that it should be taken into further consideration on Wednesday se'nnight. The hon. gent. thought that the delay would be necessary, in order to enable the house to understand the important points of the case, for which purpose he thought that the papers ought to be printed. Lord Glenbervie had no objection to the printing the papers, but thought that there should be no delay in taking the subject into consideration.—The further consideration of the report was fixed for Wednesday se'nnight.

IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.
Mr. Leycester brought up the report of the committee to which certain parts of the matter contained in the tenth report of the commissioners of naval enquiry had been referred. The report was ordered to lie on the table. The hon. and learned gent. then moved, that the report be printed for the use of the members. On the question being put on this motion,
Mr. Whitbread rose, not for the purpose of objecting to the motion for printing the report. On the contrary, it appeared to him highly necessary that every facility should be afforded gentlemen to make themselves acquainted with the important matter of the report. But he took that opportunity of giving notice, that on the first open day after the report should be printed, and sufficient time be allowed to members to consider its contents, he should submit to the house a motion for the impeachment of lord Melville; and also move certain resolutions, expressive
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of his opinion of the conduct of the chancellor of the exchequer, with respect to certain transactions which had been referred to the consideration of the committee. The hon. gent. added, that, considering the advanced period of the session, it might be convenient that he should as nearly as may be, fix the day, for the discussion, at least on his first motion. He believed the report might be printed and ready for delivery on Thursday next, and if so, he supposed that Thursday se'nnight would not be thought too early a day for bringing forward his motion.

LANCASTER JUSTICES' BILL.
The order of the day being read, for the third reading of the bill to empower the justices of the peace within the division or hundred of Salford, in the county palatine of Lancaster, to raise a salary to be paid to the chairman of the quarter sessions for the said hundred,
Mr. Shaw Lefevre rose to oppose the motion. He said it was a bill of the most mischievous kind that had been before the house for some time. Nothing was so material as that the business of the chairman of the sessions should be carried on without fee or reward. Nothing but the strongest necessity could sanction such a proceeding, and he was at a loss to know where the present necessity rested. The public business had been carried on very well hitherto, without any reward or salary. Admitting die necessity of the measure, the mode adopted for raising the salary was extremely exceptionable and unjust. It was desirable that the third reading of the bill should be postponed at least this session; he should therefore move, that it be read a third time this day three months."
Mr. Hurst said, he had, on a former occasion, given his entire approbation to the bill. He had. no apprehensions like those of the hon. gent. who spoke last. As the whole town and district had petitioned parliament, it was their duty to comply with the petition. In Ireland every chairman of a court of justice received a salary; no inconvenience had arisen from it, but it met with the hearty approbation of the people in the several districts.
Sir Robert Peele considered the bill absolutely necessary for such a manufacturing district as that of Manchester, where a very attentive police was necessary.
Sir Robert Buxton acquiesced, on the ground of its local necessity, although he could not agree to its principle.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer concluded the conversation by observing, that the necessity of the bill was not only evident from the testimony of the gentlemen best acquainted with that part of the country, but from the circumstance of the petition being signed by all the magistrates, and by the petitioners being willing to take upon themselves the expence of paying these magistrates.—The house then divided; for the third reading 115; against it 23; majority for the bill 92.— The bill was then read a third time, and passed.

PANCRAS POOR BILL.
On the second reading of the Pancras Poor bill,
The Earl of Suffolk observed, that, as it was confidently asserted, the former bill would eventually afford satisfaction to those affected by it; there was, in his mind, no necessity for the present measure. The former bill cost some of their lordships a great deal of trouble, and much attention was paid to the discussion of the merits of the bill, in the committee, particularly by a noble earl, now absent on a command in Scotland (Moira), and a right rev. prelate, not now in his place (bishop of St. Asaph), as well as by himself. He thought, therefore, it would be better to wait till the effect of the former bill were ascertained.—The bill was forth-

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with read a second time, and ordered to the consideration of a committee of their lordships, on Thursday next. On which stage, it was ordered, that the petitioners have leave to be heard by their counsel, respecting the bill. After some proceedings had intervened,
The Earl of Suffolk again addressed their lordships on the subject; understanding a great diversity of opinions ootained, as to the merits of the bill, and strong objections were entertained to its principle, he should, with a view to afford time for its consideration, and a regular opportunity, at some distance, for the opposers of the measure to be heard by their counsel, move to-morrow, that the present order, with respect to the committee, be discharged, and that the bill, his lordship said, should be read on Wednesday se'nnight.

STATE OF IRELAND.
The Earl of Suffolk rose to move, that the order for summoning their lordships for Wednesday next, on the occasion of his intended motion for an enquiry into the existing state of Ireland, be discharged; which being accordingly done, his lordship observed, that he was principally induced to this, by his wish to take further time to consider upon the subject, to obtain further information, and to consult with several noble friends, who were inclined to support his proposition on the subject; which, perhaps, he might think not inexpedient, considering its very advanced period, to bring it forward during the present session. He concluded by moving, "that their lordships be summoned for Wednesday se'nnight." Ordered.

CALICO PRINTERS' PETITION.
Lord King presented a petition from the Journeymen Calico Printers of Lancashire, Derbyshire, Cheshire, Lanark, Renfrew, &c. complaining of the distress they suffer in consequence of their inability to procure employment owing to the excessive multiplication of apprentices, and stating other grievances to which they are subject. The noble lord prefaced his motion, that the petition should lie on the table, by assuring the house that the case of the petitioners was one of peculiar severity, and strongly entitled to the attention of the house. It was a great hardship, he observed, that those poor men should not, after serving a long apprenticeship, have at least a fair opportunity of employment. But the number of apprentices introduced
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of late years into their trade, which exceeded very far indeed the proportion ever known before in any mechanical profession in this country, excluded the journeymen from almost even the chance of being able to earn their subsistence. Indeed in many instances these journeymen were refused employment, unless they consented to sign a second contract or indenture for five or seven years, on such terms as the masters thought proper to prescribe. This was a case without parallel, and which could be scarcely heard of without surprize. However, notwithstanding those acts of injustice and oppression, it was not the wish of the journeymen to engage in any litigation with their masters, but rather to have matters settled amicably. It was not his desire, the noble lord stated, to interfere with the freedom of trade, but the house would recollect that such an interference was warranted by the operation of the combination law, and that in this instance he had a precedent precisely in point, he meant the silk weavers' act, which limited the number of apprentices which masters should take. The petitioners, he trusted, would meet that consideration from the house which their conduct deserved. They had not resorted to those combinations which were so injurious to trade and the peace of the country, but appealed to that house for redress. It was much to be wished that their example should have a due influence upon all the journeymen throughout the country, and he had no doubt that the fate of this petition would be such as to encourage those journeyman who feel that, when they had any real grievances to complain of, they might apply to that house with confidence of redress. The noble lord concluded with observing, that he did not mean to take any proceeding this session upon this petition, and he hoped the conduct of the masters in the course of the recess would render any further proceeding unnecessary. If, however, he should be disappointed in this just expectation; if no amicable adjustment should take place between the parties, he should feel it his duty at an early period of the next session to bring forward a measure grounded on the prayer of this petition.
The Earl of Suffolk considered the case of the petitioners as peculiarly entitled to the consideration of the house.—The petition was ordered to lie on the table.—Adjourned.