Sitting of 17 May 1805

MINUTES.
A message from the lords by the deputy usher of the Black Rod required the attendance of the house at their lordships' bar, where the royal assent was given by commission to the Irish Loan act, the Irish Post Roads act, the Irish Promissory Note act, the Irish Dollar Token act, the Scotch Excise Office act, and several private acts.—On the third reading of the bill for allowing a salary to the chairman of the session of Stalford Hundred in the country of Lancaster, objections were made by sir Robert Buxton and Mr. Shaw Lefevre, on the ground that it was a bad precedent. The bill was defended by colonel Stanley and lord Stanley. The gallery was cleared for a division, and the doors remained shut for a considerable time, during which the debate continued. We believe an amendment was proposed in the committee, for on re-opening of the gallery, we found the bill was ordered to be read a third time this day se'nnight, by a majority of 49 to 38.—Lord Castlereagh, pursuant to the notice he gave last night, moved that leave be given to bring in a bill to amend and render more effectual the act for establishing and erecting public infirmaries in Ireland. His lordship was induced to make this motion from a conviction of the great inconveniency sustained by the poorer classes of people, from the distance they often were from those hospitals, and meant that the bill, among other regulations, should remedy that evil by providing fur the establishment of dispensaries at proper distances. Sir John Newport wished that an accurate enquiry should be made into the mode of conducting those county hospitals, as he was convinced great abuses existed in that quarter, and that the funds were not unfrequently converted into purposes of private emolument. Leave was then granted, and a committee appointed to draw up the bill.—On the motion of lord Stanley, a return of the number of the militia who have volunteered into the regular service, specifying the number from each regiment and the kind of force they had joined, as artillery, marine, &c. was ordered.—Mr. Creevey gave notice that
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on Monday next he would move for an account of the salaries of the judges of the admiralty.—The Irish spirit duty bill went through a committee, and the report is to be received on Monday.—On the motion of Mr. Foster, the house went into a committee of ways and means. A stamp duty of 3d. was imposed on banker's checks under 51. in order to prevent them from getting into circulation. Policies of insurance in Ireland were made chargeable at 2s. 6d. per cent. as in England. The report to be received on Monday.

PETITION FROM NORFOLK RESPECTING THE TENTH NAVAL REPORT.
A petition of the gentlemen, clergy, and freeholders of the county of Norfolk, convened by the high sheriff of the said county, at the castle of Norwich, in the shire-house there, on Tuesday the 14th day of May 1805, was presented to the house, and read; setting forth, "that the petitioners beg leave to express their gratitude to the house for the steps which they have already taken towards the detection and punishment of those servants of the crown who have defied the laws, broken their trust, and applied enormous sums of the public money to their own corrupt purposes of emolument and power; and that in the name of a loyal and suffering people, the petitioners implore the house not to relax in their exertions; they intreat them to consider how patiently the petitioners have seen millions added to millions of the national debt, the rapid advance in every article of consumption, their burthens increasing, and their means of bearing them diminishing, in the just hope that while engaged in extensive wars what they contributed with cheerfulness would be be applied with fidelity, and as the law expressly directed; and that faithful to their first duties, the house have recorded, by the resolutions of the 8th and 10th of April, that the people of England have been grossly, wronged by lord Melville; and the petitioners humbly represent to the house the necessity of effectually protecting the nation against future depredations; and therefore praying the house, first, to investigate and sift to the bottom the remaining charges of abuse in the application of the public money, contained in the tenth report of the commissioners of naval enquiry, secondly, to examine minutely into the nature of those irregularities brought to light in the eleventh report of the said commissioners, and likewise

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whatever may appear culpable or suspicious in any of their future reports: thirdly, to institute immediate and rigorous enquiries into the expenditure of every other department of executive government; and that in performing these acts of necessary and expected justice, the petitioners are persuaded that the house will take no other guides than its own wisdom and resolution; and that, warned by the example of detected guilt, and awake to the frauds which have been practised upon their own facility, as well as upon the public purse, the house will perceive the necessity of resorting to those principles which prevailed in the better days of our constitution, and of acting upon a system of vigilance and jealousy in preference to one of blind and implicit confidence in ministers."—Ordered, that the said petition do lie upon the table.

PETITION OF THE HOUSE OF KEYS AND INHABITANTS OF THE ISLE OF MAN, RESPECTING THE DUKE ATHOLL'S CLAIM.
A petition of the house of Keys, of the Isle of Man; and also, a petition of several inhabitants and proprietors of estates within the Isle of Man; were severally presented to the house by Mr Curwen, and read; setting forth, "that the people of Man not being represented in parliament, the petitioners hope, that when a measure affecting them and their posterity is introduced into the house, they may be deemed peculiarly entitled to its protection; and that the centrical position of the isle, and the comparatively low rate of duties paid to the feudal lord, made the isle the place of deposit for contraband goods for the purpose of clandestine conveyance to the neighbouring coasts —the privilege of subordinate sovereignty being thus abused, by which the feudal lord benefited equally with the trader, the necessity of re-acquiring it became obvious; and the treasury was therefore authorized, in the year 1726, to purchase the isle from the then proprietors: in the year 1735 the Atholl family became possessed of the isle; and from that time it would seem that the proprietors expected to _sell, until the year 1765, when the bargain was concluded between the treasury and the then duke and duchess of Atholl, for 70,000 I, the sum asked by the noble proprietors; and that this bargain received the sanction of parliament; and besides the price required, his majesty was pleased, as an act of gracious bounty, to bestow on
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the duke and duchess a pension of 2,000l. a year upon the Irish establishment; and that the late duke of Atholl surviving this sale about nine years, made no complaint of inadequacy of price; and the present noble petitioner, for sixteen years after the death of the late duke, although the house have witnessed other measures on his part designed to affect the isle, yet no discovery appears to have been made of this alledged inadequacy; and that in the year 1790 a bill, assuming the possibility of this inadequacy, was, indeed, laid before the house, but it was afterwards withdrawn; and that in the year 1801 application was made to his Majesty for further compensation, which was referred to the privy council, and by them to the then attorney and sollicitor general, whose report and that founded on ex parte, evidence, the petitioners have reason to believe was against this claim; the petitioners, then, viewing this compact between parties in stations so elevated, thus deliberately and advisedly made, thus solemnly ratified, thus long acquiesced in, thus confirmed by the acceptance of additional royal bounty, which has already doubled the price demanded, do most humbly enquire, if such a compact, forty years after its completion, be suffered to be questioned, what then is sacred and binding between man and man and that the revenue of the island has been greatly increased within these few years by additional duties laid on importations by the British parliament at the recommendation of the duke of Atholl, and with a view, as it now appears, to the present application. If this increased revenue is to be made subject to a rent-charge payable to his grace, the petitioners cannot consider these additional duties in any other light than a direct tax on the people for his grace's private advantage; and therefore praying, that they may be heard by their counsel against the imposing on the revenue of the Isle of Man any hereditary rent-charge or other burthen in favour of the duke of Atholl." And the said petitions were severally ordered to lie upon the table.

MILITARY COMMISSIONERS' BILL.
On the report of this bill being brought up,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that the object of the amendment contended for last night was, in his opinion, not sufficiently provided for by the words that were adopted; and, he should therefore propose an amendment upon the former

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one, to this effect: "That the commissioners be directed to enquire into any profits made by persons in office, holding sums, or balances of public money in their hands, or by any agents or other persons on their account."
Mr. Grey acquiesced in the proposal; but having observed that the military hospital, academy, and Asylum, were specified, he suggested that the medical board should also be included.
Mr. Fox was of opinion, that instead of leaving any enquiry into former abuses to the discretion of the commissioners, as the bill did, were any distinction to be made, the reverse should rather be the case. Matters of form, and such as were of secondary moment, might be fairly left to their discretion; but it was singular to leave it to their option whether they were at all to do that which ought properly to be enjoined them as a duty. The enquiry should at least, he thought, go as far back as the year 1793, and though the extent of it might be left to their discretion, yet the enquiry itself should not be made a proviso.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer was against any limitation in respect to time, and was not altogether unwilling, which he apprehended would meet pretty nearly the honourable gentleman's idea, that the commissioners should be directed to enquire into former abuses as far as they should think expedient, leaving both the time, the degree, and manner of enquiry, discretionary.—These amendments were severally agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Tuesday next.

NAVAL COMMISSIONERS' RENEWAL BILL.
On the report of this bill being brought up,
Admiral Markham proposed that as Chelsea Hospital was included in the bill for military enquiry, this bill should in like manner embrace Greenwich Hospital as a subject of enquiry.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer observed, that as this amendment affected the original form of the bill, it would for that purpose be necessary to re-commit it, and moved the committee accordingly. —The house having resumed, the report was agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Tuesday next.

IRISH ELECTION BILL.
The house went into a committee on the Irish election bill. On the first clause being read,
Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald expressed his opinion, that there was no necessity for hurrying the bill forward with so much precipitation, especially as it was one of the provisions of which the people of Ireland were utterly ignorant, and which went to disfranchise a number of individuals. He therefore moved, that the chairman do leave the chair.
Mr. G. Ponsonby seconded the motion, and said he would willingly attend the hon. gent. who brought forward this bill (colonel Bagwell), and give him every assistance in his power, to make the bill as perfect as possible, on condition that it should afterwards be printed, and submitted to the people of Ireland for their consideration, till the next sessions.—A very long and desultory conversation then ensued, with respect to the registry of freeholds, &c. in Ireland. The question, being, however, loudly called for, a division took place on the question that the chairman of the committee do leave the chair; on which there appeared, ayes, 19; noes, 35; majority, 16. The committee then proceeded, and went through the several clauses of the bill, in which several verbal amendments were introduced, and several clauses totally omitted. The report was then received, and the bill ordered to be printed and taken into further consideration on Wednesday next.—Adjourned.

MINUTES.
The royal assent was given, by commission, to the Irish Bank Token bill, Irish Promissory Notes, Irish Post Roads, and Scots Excise Officers bill, and to twenty-six bills of a private or local description. — Mr. Alexander presented from the commons the Land Tax Commissioners Name bill, the Property Tax Amendment bill, and the Irish First Fruits bill, which were severally read a first time.—The earl of Darnley acquainted their lordships that he should, on Friday next, bring forward the motion, of which he had formerly given notice, respecting the naval documents upon the table, and moved that the lords be summoned for that day. Ordered. — Lord Auckland observed, that very little had been done in consequence of the report of the committee of the last session, towards improving their lordships' house, and rendering the precincts thereof more commodious, save the erection of one additional fire-place. His noble and learned friend on the woolsack was far from being adequately accommodated; and the learned gent., the principal clerk, had no proper place to transact his part of the business in, except he opened his own house for that purpose. What he intended to propose was, the appointment of a committee of their lordships, under an order similar to that of last session. He then moved, "that a committee be appointed to consider of the best means of more effectually lighting and warming the house, improving the precincts thereof, and removing all nuisances in the approaches to the house." The motion was agreed

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to, and Thursday next fixed for the appointment of the committee. — Adjourned.