Sitting of 3 May 1805

MINUTES.
—The sheriffs of. London presented at the bar the petition of the lord mayor, aldermen, and common council of the city of London, in council assembled, against the prayer of the Catholic petition, now on the table of the house.—Ordered to lie on the table till the day for taking said petition into consideration.—Mr. Leycester informed the house from the bar, that pursuant to their order he had waited on the lords with their request to their lordships, that they would permit lord viscount Melville to attend the committee appointed to consider further of the matter of the tenth report referred to them, in order to his being examined; and that their lordships had signified their intention to send their answer by a messenger of their own.—Mr. Jeffery gave notice, that he should on Monday make a motion relative to the number of vessels that had been fitted out and stored in his majesty's yards during the administration of lord St. Vincent.—Mr. Tierney submitted whether the hon. gent. ought not in candour to state the nature of the papers for which he intended to move; and whether, if he intended to make them the ground of charge upon the noble earl, it would not he more fair at once to move for an inquiry into his conduct, than to bring forward a charge upon an ex parte statement.—Mr. Jeffery stated his object to be, to procure a document whereby the comparative state of the navy then and at present might be ascertained, and whether the former administration of the admiralty was entitled to the approbation of the house.—The chancellor of the exchequer brought up the bill for continuing, for a time to be limited, the act for appointing the commissioners of naval inquiry, which was read a first time; also the bill for appointing commissioners to inquire into the different departments of the public expenditure therein mentioned, and

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to report thereon to the house.—Read a first time.

PETITION FROM MIDDLESEX RESPECTING THE 10th NAVAL REPORT.
—A petition of the freeholders of Middlesex was. presented to the house by Mr. Byng, setting forth, "that the votes of your hon. house on the 8th and 10th days of April last, founded on the tenth report of the commissioners of naval enquiry, has interested the whole nation, and no part of the nation more deeply than your petitioners.—We humbly crave the liberty of stating, that no measures ever yet issued from the commons of England which had diffused more gladness or raised more expectations than the said votes of April the 8th and 10th, declaring lord viscount Melville to be 'guilty of a gross violation of the law and a high breach of duty;' thereby supporting the upright and virtuous discharge of the salutary duties of the said commissioners, whose conduct has excited the gratitude and the confidence of the whole country.—That the renewal of the said commission is a subject of unfeigned joy to your petitioners; and that we entreat your hon. house to be careful to make the new law effectual, and adequate to its end. We pray your hon. house to attend particularly to those parts of the tenth report which have detailed the obstacles thrown by persons in office in the way of the investigation of the said commissioners, and to guard against their repetition.—We submit to your hon. house whether the subaltern agents of corruption will not be eager to shelter their contumacy under the example of their superiors, unless the explicitness and enlarged authority of the law defeat their artifices. Nothing, we are persuaded, could be more revolting to the public sentiment, or could more thoroughly disappoint the hopes of the country, than that, instead of inquiries real, honest, and efficient, a fallacious and illusory system should be allowed to be adopted, under which real guilt might elude detection, and the substance of earnest investigation be sacrificed to mere pretence and show.—Your petitioners humbly beg leave to state to your hon. house, that a civil action against viscount Melville and Mr. Trotter would not, of itself, be satisfactory to the public expectation. That a criminal prosecution against these delinquents is the real wish of the country; because the recovery of millions of money would not be of such real benefit to the people, as to see the justice of the law vindicated upon a great malefactor, with the
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same equal, impartial, partial, and inflexible sternness, with which it falls upon the poorest and most unprotected criminal.—Your hon. house, by the said votes of the 8th and 10th of April, has extorted the admiration of those most hostile to the character and construction of the lower house of parliament. By following up the spirit of those votes, your hon. house will secure the confidence and the affection of the nation, and the triumph of the English constitution will be complete.—We entreat you to proceed and finish your labours upon these points in a manner that may be worthy of your honoured and applauded commencement of the same. We beg of you not to cease till you bring viscount Melville to condign punishment; to expose delinquencies where-ever traced, and to make an example of guilt in whatever quarter it may be proved."—Ordered to lie upon the table.

PETITION FROM WESTMINSTER RESPECTING THE 10th NAVAL REPORT.
—A petition of the electors of the city and liberty of Westminster, convened by the high bailiff in Palace-yard, on Friday the 3d of May, was presented by Mr. Fox and read; setting forth, "That your petitioners share the national gratitude to your hon. house, for your memorable and virtuous votes of the 8th and 10th days of-April last, founded upon the tenth report of the commissioners of naval enquiry, declaring the lord viscount Melville to be guilty of a gross violation of the law and a high breach of public duty.—Never were parliamentary measures received with more exultation by the country than the said votes; and nothing, your petitioners are persuaded, could cause more disappointment to the nation than your hon. house's stopping short of these great ends of justice, which the public interest demands, and the honour you have acquired by the said votes, exacts and enforces at your hands.—The pure, the moderate, the faithful, the independent and the dignified discharge of the functions with which the law has invested the said commissioners of naval enquiry has filled the country with the most unqualified admiration of their conduct. The renewal of their authority is a source of the most unfeigned pleasure to the people at large; and we do most earnestly supplicate your hon. house, that in the construction of the new statute, your attention will be fixed upon the contumacious obstruction to full enquiry, which is so clearly pointed out in the said tenth report; and that you will carefully guard

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against its repetition.—Your petitioners beg leave to state to your hon. house, that a civil suit against lord Melville and Mr. Trotter, unaccompanied by criminal prosecution, would be infinitely short of the public hopes, because it is so of public justice. It is not the refunding of money that, of itself, is of real consequence to the nation; it is the infliction of an exemplary vengeance. upon proved and powerful delinquents. It is the manifestation to the whole world that high criminals are not above the reach of punishment; and that the corrupt or wanton violators of law shall feel the strength of its arm.—Above all things we intreat your hon. house not to permit the public feeling to be sported with; and in the formation of inquiries similar to the naval commission, that you will take care that the power constituted be equal to its professed objects; both as relating to the vigor of the authority, and to the integrity of those who are to put it in execution; for we submit to your hon. house whether, if any thing can be worse than a deep-rooted, wide-spreading system of abuse and peculation in the management of public money, it would not be the institution of a system of revision, in its nature a burlesque upon investigation, and in its result a mockery of justice.—To all these points we beg the best attention of your hon. house. We beseech you to pursue with effect what you began with so much honour. We intreat you not to relax in your efforts till you have brought lord Melville to condign punishment, and given to all who shall be found to have committed similar crimes, a signal demonstration, that, in the representatives of the people, instead of abettors of their iniquities, they will find only the faithful guardians of the nation, and the zealous vindicators of the laws."—Ordered to lie on the table.

ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITION.
Mr. Foxobserved, that as the day which he had fixed for submitting a motion to the house an the subject of the petition of the Catholic body of Ireland was so near, he deemed it proper to take this opportunity of stating the reasons on which he proposed to defer that Motion from the 10th to Monday the 13th inst. One reason was, that many gentlemen interested in the discussion were now in Ireland, and could not attend on Friday. This was a sufficient reason, but it was not the principal one. Another was, the importance of the business which was to occupy the attention of the house next week. His hon. friend (Mr. Whitbread) had a mo-
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tion of considerable importance, which, together with the other motions noticed on several interesting subjects, would, perhaps, fatigue gentlemen so much as to render it inconvenient to have his motion brought forward on Friday. He thought this was a fit time to state for the information of gentlemen, the substance, if not the precise words, of the motion which he should submit to the house on the subject. His motion would be, that the house should resolve into a committee of the whole house, to consider of all the matters contained in the petition, and whether it would be expedient that all, or any of the prayers it contained, should be complied with, or whether a middle course should be adopted for granting some, and deferring the decision upon the rest of their claims; or whether or not some collateral means of meeting the wishes of the petitioners might not be eligible.
Dr. Duigenandeclared himself hostile to the prayer of the petition, and should, therefore, oppose the motion of the hon. gent.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
—The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the order of the day for going into a committee of supply; and on his motion, also, the extraordinaries of the army, the expences of the volunteers in Great Britain and Ireland, and the deficiency of the consolidated fund, were referred to the said committee.—The house having resolved into a committee, the following sums were voted:

To make good the excess of the extraordinary services of the army over the estimates voted last year

£668,803

15

3

Extraordinary services of the army for the present year

3,000,000,

0

0

To complete the sum of five millions granted out of the monies that should arise from the consolidated fund of Great Britain for the year 1804

3,049,488

15

3

To defray the expences of the volunteers in Great Britain and Ireland

1,600,000

0

0

Mr. Johnstonesaid, he did not rise to object to this resolution; but, as emigrants were included in this sum, he submitted it to the committee, whether it would not be better that the money voted for emigrants should be a distinct vote for that purpose, instead of being brought into the army extraordinaries? There was another circumstance which struck him, and that was, he, observed, an article of charge of somewhat about 500l. for the expences of creating sir Brooke Watson a baronet. He thought, if honours were heaped on a man in the situ-

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ation of the hon. baronet, it was rather extraordinary that the public should be asked to pay for them.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that as the baronetage was given that gentleman for his services in the army, it was therefore brought into the army extraordinaries, it being always usual, when that honour was conferred for services to pay the expenses. As to the emigrants, this was a charge for such emigrants only as have served in our armies, and are paid abroad in order to save the expense of coming to this country. This was absolutely necessary, when foreigners, who had served us, had no other means of gaining a livelihood in this country, and the army extraordinaries were the most convenient head of service under which they could be classed.—The resolutions were then read, and severally agreed to.

IRISH SILVER TOKENS BILL.
—On the question for going into a committee on the Irish Silver Tokens bill;
Mr. Magensrequested the attention of the house while he made a few observations on this bill, which, he thought, would be as properly made in this as in any other stage of it. He observed, that in a conversation which passed in that house, some short time since, it appeared that the rate of exchange being so much against Ireland was in consequence of the very large quantity of paper that was in circulation in that part of the empire. These tokens, as they were called, were, in his opinion, very little, if at all, better than paper; and as they would be subject to great depreciation, he saw very little benefit to be derived from this measure. He thought the only way to serve Ireland effectually would be to restore a real silver coinage directly under the royal authority, and thereby to assimilate the coinages of the two countries as nearly as possible. For these reasons he could not approve the bill.
Mr. Princepsaid, he thought some limitation should be put to these tokens, and hoped a standard coinage would soon take place.
Mr. Rosesaid, the silver tokens were tokens above the value of the price of dollars, and therefore he thought there was no fear of the apprehensions entertained by the hon. gent. who spoke last but one. It had been for a long time in contemplation to .make a standard coinage, but there were certain obstacles to it which at present could not be removed.
Mr. Magenssaid, if the old standard were
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restored, every thing would be much cheaper, and the country would derive innume rable benefits from it.
Sir J. Newportsaid it was much to be wished that the old standard was restored, but that would require some considerable time; and, as a large quantity of paper had been lately taken out of circulation, it became absolutely necessary something of this kind should be adopted. With respect to the assimilation of the coinage of the two countries, it was a subject that required great consideration, and therefore necessary this bill should pass as speedily as possible.
Mr. Leesaid the hon. member who made the objection to this bill, most certainly was not acquainted with the situation of Ireland, or he would not argue as he had done. Silver notes, which were the only circulation for making payment of small sums, were now drawn out of circulation, and it was necessary something should be substituted in their stead, as there is now no circulating medium for small payments. He was, however, one of those who did not think the quantity of paper that had been in circulation was injurious to Ireland; the fact had never been proved, and till it was so, he should differ from those who held that opinion.
Mr. Fostersaid very little remained for him to say on the subject. There was at present great distress in Ireland for want of small silver change, and as it is only to continue so long as the restriction of the bank from paying in specie continues, the hon. gent. who made this objection, need have no great apprehension. It will be extremely convenient to the people of Ireland, and he hoped therefore the bill would have the approbation of the house.
Mr. Johnstonesaid he doubted whether these pieces of silver would continue long in circulation, as, at 5s. 5d. each, people would find an advantage of eight and a half per cent. and would send them to this country to make their payments, and thereby save so much in the rate of exchange.
Mr. Fostersaid, these tokens are to issue at 5s. 5d. but will be ten per cent. under the value of Spanish dollars, and if you add eight and a quarter, the difference of exchange, it would be nearly 19 per cent. and when exchange is very high, it would be nearly 25 per cent. ; when to these are added the inconvenience of carriage, and the wearing of the silver by friction, there would be thought very little danger of their being sent to this country.
Mr. Vansittartsaid a few words in favour of the bill, and the house went into the committee, in which the clauses were read and agreed to.—Adjourned.

LORD MELVILLE.
—Mr. Leycester, attended by several members, brought up a message from the commons, in substance, desiring their lordships permission to a member of that house, lord viscount Melville, to attend a committee of the house of commons to whom was referred the consideration of so much of the tenth report of the commissioners of naval inquiry as related to the application of monies imprest to the treasurer of the navy to purposes other than the service of his majesty's navy; and also what communications were made to the lords commissioners of the treasury, or chancellor of the exchequer, respecting the same, &c.—The messengers having withdrawn,
Lord Hawkesburymoved "that their lordships do send an answer to the message just delivered from the commons by messengers of their own." Which being ordered accordingly, the messengers from the commons, were ordered to be called in, and the lord chancellor, with the usual forma-
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lities, communicated to them the resolution of the house. The messengers having retired;
Lord Hawkesburyrose to call their lordship's particular attention to the proceeding which had just taken place. He would first move, that the standing order be read by the clerk, which was accordingly done. This order imported that no peer of the realm, a, member of that house, should attend the house of commons, or any committee thereof, to answer matters of charge or accusation against themselves, either in person or by their counsel, &c. on pain of being committed. to the custody of the black rod, or sent to the Tower during the pleasure of that house. His lordship then observed, that the case which was involved by the recent message from the commons, was one of very considerable and peculiar importance; though no consideration of the kind was expressly referred to in the message., yet, from the votes of the house of commons, which had come to his knowledge upon the subject, there was no doubt but matters of charge and accusation against lord viscount Melville were connected with the proceeding. He had therefore, with reference to what he had reason to think would take place, enquired respecting such precedents as existed of such cases; and though he met with several, yet he did not feel himself fully informed, or adequately prepared to recommend at present any distinct line, or course of proceeding. He then adverted to the circumstances which gave rise to the standing order which had been just read, and stated a few cases in the way of precedent, which, he conceived, bore a resemblance to the present. Among these, the case of the duke of Buckingham, who, in March 1626, was required to attend the, house of commons, on matters of charge and accusation against himself. Some farther proceedings took place on that case on the 14th of the following month; the result was, that their lordships resolved the duke should not attend the house of commons. A case nearly similar occurred in the year 1673, in that of the earl of Arlington, who was also required to attend the house of commons to answer on matters of accusation against him. In this case, their lordships, after duly considering the case, and though the earl of Arlington himself desired to be examined, refused their consent, and subsequently resolved upon the standing order now upon the book. In the present instance, he repeated, though the message did

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not directly mention matter of accusation against lord viscount Melville, yet he could not avoid observing (not meaning however to give any decided opinion upon the subject) that it expressly referred to the tenth report of the commissioners of naval inquiry, a copy of which was on their lordship's table, and which contained matters of grave and serious accusation against that noble lord. This report, he could collect from the votes of the commons, was referred to a select committee, who were desired to examine into several points contained therein; and, among others, into the application of public monies entrusted to the treasurer of the navy to other services than those of the navy. A proceeding of this kind, so set forth, although it may prove, upon due enquiry and explanation, to be even a meritorious line of conduct; yet, prima facie, it was to be regarded in the light of matter of accusation; therefore, from what evidence they had before them, derived from the report upon the table, and the votes of the house of commons, it might in the first instance be inferred that the intention was to examine the noble viscount upon points which may form matter of accusation against himself. Under these circumstances, particularly referring to the standing order, it was incumbent upon the house seriously to take the case into consideration before an answer should be sent to the commons. He already stated he had not his mind fully made up as to the most proper course to be adopted. He thought that some time, avoiding all unnecessary delay, should be given to noble lords to consider and to enquire as to the precedents in such cases. He hoped, however, under the circumstances of the case, and its peculiar importance, there would be no objection, no difficulty in referring it to the consideration of a committee of privileges, and that the clerk be ordered to furnish them with such precedents of similar cases as may have occurred.
Earl Darnleythought the noble secretary of state should be sure of proceeding upon strong grounds before he did what might appear at least as throwing difficulties in the way of public justice; and it appeared to him rather extraordinary that a member of his majesty's government should be the first to come forward with such a proposition, in a case of such a delicate and peculiar nature as the present. At any rate, he hoped their lordships would avoid all unnecessary delay, and come, as soon as possible, to a resolution upon the point.
Lord Hawkesboury,in explanation, begged leave to express his astonishment at what had fallen from the noble earl. He was at a loss to conceive how it could possibly be inferred from what he said, that he entertained the least idea of throwing any difficulties in the way of public justice.
The Duke of Norfolkurged that several peers had at different times attended committees of the house of commons for the purpose of giving them information with respect to subjects under their consideration. He admitted, however, in answer to a question of lord Hawkesbury across the table, that there was no matter of accusation against any of the peers he had alluded to. He was perfectly aware that their lordships could not compel lord Melville to attend a committee of the house of commons; but he conceived there could be no difficulty, if that noble lord was willing to attend, in giving him permission to do so. He wished to know ii there was any precedent subsequent to 1673 applicable to this case?
Lord Hawkesburyobserved, that his motive in moving a reference to the committee was to search for precedents.
The Lord Chancellorcontended for the propriety, in every point of view, of upholding and maintaining the privileges of their lordship's house. It was the bounden duty of every member of that house to maintain them. What had been advanced by the noble duke was nothing at all to the present question. It signified nothing, with reference to the standing order, whether a peer be willing or not to attend. The order was peremptory and explicit, and prohibited such attendance, under severe penalties. He believed there was no instance of a peer's being permitted to attend, where matters of accusation against him were under consideration. The noble and learned lord referred to some precedents before the order was made, in illustration of what he had advanced. In a case? in the year 1628, a permission had been granted in respect to an act of parliament then recently passsed, and a correspondent entry was made upon the Journals. In one or two other instances, leave had been given; but, by the resolution solemnly taken in 1673, no member of that house was suffered to attend in such a case, even were he inclined, or even to appear by his counsel. These were prohibited under the penalties of the custody of the black rod, or commitment to the Tower. For his own part, in such a case, did every subject in his majesty's dominions think he

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was acting wrong, he should perform his duty to himself, to all their lordships, and to the house in general, and, therefore, to the country, in strenuously recommending, nay, even in insisting, with reference to the standing order, upon such a proceeding as that recommended by his noble friend, it should be referred to the committee of privileges, to enquire what had been the former practice of the house upon such occasions. He agreed with the noble lords, that no delay should take place.
The Duke of Norfolkexplained, that, in his opinion, where the will of the peer required, and the permission of the house combined, the case was materially altered. In many cases it was highly desirable that every possible information should be afforded, with a view to the ends of public justice. He repeated his hope that no unnecessary delay would be suffered to take place.
Earl Darnley,in further explanation, observed, that he did not object to the matters being referred to a committee of privileges. He had only expressed his doubts of the propriety of a member of his majesty's government coming forward, as the noble secretary of state did in the present instance.
The Duke of Montrosecontended, that in a case like the present, it was more peculiarly the duty of a member of his majesty's government to come forward, and endeavour to point out the most correct and unexceptionable line of proceeding; and he must say, that he thought an expression which had fallen from a noble earl, charging his noble friend with endeavouring to throw obstacles in the way of an investigation instituted in the house of commons, had been somewhat hastily used.
Earl Darnley,in explanation, repeated his regret, that this motion had been brought forward by a member of his majesty's government, for the reason he had before stated; at the same time he should not object to referring the matter to the committee of privileges.
Lord Hawkesburyfelt himself called upon, in consequence of what had been said and repeated by the noble lord, to say a few words in vindication of his own conduct. It was very true that he was a member of his majesty's government; but he did not forget, at the same time, that he was also a member of their lordship's house, and as such he should have been wanting to his duty if he had not called their attention to their privileges and their standing orders. He was conscious of no wish or intention to
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throw any obstacles in the way of any investigation instituted with regard to the conduct of lord viscount Melville. His only wish in this case was, that the privileges of their lordships should be maintained, and their standing orders adhered to, and it was with this view, and this alone, he had brought forward his proposition.—The motion was then agreed to, and the committee of privileges was ordered to sit on Monday for the purpose of taking the subject into consideration.—Adjourned.