Sitting of 28 March 1805

MINUTES.
Col. Stanleypresented a petition from the manufacturers, tradesmen, and the inhabitants of Manchester, praying for the repeal or amendment of the Corn bill, passed last Sessions. Ordered to lie on the table.—Sir John Newport brought up a bill for establishing a provisionary Asylum for Lunatics in Ireland; which was read a first time—Mr. Curwen moved, that there be laid before the house copies of the opinion delivered by the Attorney and Solicitor-General before the Privy-Council, upon the claims of
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John Duke of Athol, on the Isle of Man. Ordered—Mr. Crevey rose to make his motion respecting the claims of the Duke of Athol upon the Isle of Man. He observed, that during the last administration, an order had been made adverse to the claims of that peer, bearing date in Aug. 1802. He was desirous of knowing what gave rise to the sudden change of sentiment with regard to the claims of the noble duke, and produced a contrary order in March last, He would therefore move, "that an humble address be presented to his majesty, praying that he would direct that there be laid before the house, a copy of the order of council, of the 31st March last, in favour of the claims of John Duke of Athol." Agreed to.—Col. Stanley moved for a copy of the memorial presented to the privy council by John Duke of Athol.—Mr. Curwen rose to move for several additional papers relative to the Duke of Athol, and wished for the production of copies of all the papers of the proceedings relative to the compensation granted at the time of the sale to Government, in 1766. Mr. Rose observed, that the most regular way of proceeding would have been for the hon. gent. to have given previous notice of his motions. The speaker having acquainted the hon. member that this would have been more conformable to the rules observed by the house, Mr. Curwen named to-morrow.—Mr. Foster brought up the Irish Spirit Permit Duty bill and the Irish Small Note Restriction bill. Read a first time.—The keeper Rates bill, the Spanish Trade Licence bill, and the American Treaty bill, were severally read a second time.—The Alien Prize Ships bill, the American Goods bill, the Irish Customs and Excise Duty bills, and the Spanish Wine bill, went through a committee. In the committee on the Spanish Wine bill a clause was inserted, for imposing the same duties on Spanish red wines as on French wines, on the ground that the Present cheapness of Spanish red wines was the occasion of their being made use of to adulterate port.

BENGAL JUDICATURE BILL.
Lord Castlereaghpursuant to notice, moved for leave to bring in a bill to amend the act of the 33d of the king, which prescribes the powers to be given to the India company in the appointment of a commander in chief of the forces in India, and regulates the duties of the governor general in council at Bengal. In making this motion,

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however, he must inform the house, that it was not his intention either to make any material alteration in the forms or add considerably to the expence of the establishment. But, in the event of an exalted military character taking the chief command of the forces in the field, he thought that it would be of essential benefit to the service, and would tend to the further security of our possessions in that quarter, if the person who was to have the chief direction and management of our armies in the field should have an opportunity of sitting in the council and giving his advice or communicating his information on matters that were intimately connected with their welfare. He should therefore propose, that the commander chief should have a place in the council at Fort William. When that illustrious personage that noble and gallant officer, the marquis Cornwallis, was formerly in India, as the office of governor general and that of commander in chief are both united, and as he was a military man of great experience, and possessing the utmost ability, he had the direction of the councils and the management of the armies in the field at the same time, but for the latter duty he had no emolument, notwithstanding his bravery and success are known so well to have deserved the utmost compensation. By his exploits and from circumstances which have since happened, our territories in the East have considerably increased since the time of that noble and gallant officer having first taken the field, and gentlemen need not be told that the duties of the civil govt. of our possessions in the East must consequently have become more numerous, and that it must require more time and a greater degree of attention to direct the civil affairs of the company in the East than it did at the distant period to which he alluded. And, in the event of the person whom he had already mentioned going to India, it would be of the utmost importance that the council at Fort William should have his experience and ability added to that of which it is already possessed. He therefore moved, that leave be given to amend the act which he had mentioned on introducing the subject to the house.
Mr. Francisthen rose and said; sir, I am not aware of any objection to the provisions of this bill. The cases stated, though I hope not likely to happen, ought to be provided for. The supposition cannot be made without some painful reflec-
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tions: that lord Cornwallis, on his arrival in Bengal, which cannot be computed at less than six months from this period, will find India still involved in war, and that he may be obliged to take the field in person. If that be well founded, it gives us but a melancholy prospect of the state of our affairs in that quarter. I do not perceive that the bill gives lord Cornwallis any new or extraordinary powers; and, if it did, I should not be inclined to oppose it, for two reasons; first, because I should think it not at all unlikely that the exigency of the case might require such powers; and then, because I know of no person among those who have acted in great stations in my time, whom I should be more ready to trust with great power, than my lord Cornwallis. Judging of him by all his public conduct, I am convinced that power may be safely trusted in his hands, and that he will never use it but for the benefit of the public service. If my voice could contribute to his honour, he should have it without reserve, for the spirit that prompts him to undertake such a task, as I know it to be, and at such a time; and if it were possible to give him support in the execution of it by any effort of mine, he might be sure of it. I am convinced that his great object will be to compose the disorders of India, and to restore peace and tranquillity to the unfortunate inhabitants of that country.—Leave was then given to bring in the bill, which was brought up and read a first time.

MILITIA ENLISTING BILL.
On the motion being put for the house resolving itself into a committee of the whole house, on the Militia Enlisting bill,
General Fitzpatricksaid, it was his intention to propose in the committee a clause for limiting the time of the enlistment of these volunteers. It was now 14 years since he first endeavoured to impress the propriety of enlisting for the army for a term of years. The enlistment for life, however, still continued, though he was convinced his proposition would be ultimately adopted, as the only certain mode of permanently recruiting the army. His plan was partially adopted in the volunteering from the militia in 1799, in which case the enlistment was for a definite term of 5 years, and during the war. There was no provision to that effect in the present bill, and that was his principal reason for voting against it on the second reading. He would propose in the committee

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a limitation similar to that of 1799, with the exception of that part of it which restricted the service to Europe. The limitation he meant to propose was, merely for the term of 5 years, without any limitation of place.
Mr. Ellisonsaid, the bill was neither unconstitutional nor unjust: and if it was the motto of the constitution neither to bend or bow, yet as the militia was but one branch of the great tree of the constitution, the militia might be constitutionally made both to bow and bend, to receive alterations, not only without violating the constitution, but so as at once to maintain it, to guard it from the incroachment of real violations, and by extending the sphere of its conservative power, to keep off the blights of time from the sacred body of the constitution. He would not admit that the bill would be a tax on the landed interest. The militia was originally, however, more a taxation on the landed interest than on any other. It was a wrong idea to suppose that the militia was raised for its own defence merely; for what would be our situation, if. on the call of danger, the York or Lincoln militia were to refuse to serve any where but in its own county? For these reasons, he thought the bill neither unconstitutional, unjust, nor oppressive. As to what was said of its being a breach of faith, it was not that, but a commutation. Still he admitted that nothing could justify the measure but the necessity of the case. With respect to men's feelings, he could only say, that he neither felt himself insulted or degraded by the bill, and should say to his men, at the head of his regiment, "Here, my lads, is a better way of serving your country, and I know you will choose the better way." He took notice of the remarks on the paper signed by the 32 militia officers, mentioned on a former night, and said, that although he was present at the meeting of these officers, he had never understood that any resolution was passed, and had never signed his name to any, although it did appear at the published resolutions of that meeting.
Earl Templesaid, that the hon. member was certainly present at the meeting, and expressed no sort of dissent from the resolutions.
Mr. Ellisonin explanation, did not deny having been present, but as to the resolutions, there were, in fact, none proposed while he was present, or none which, from the confusion and uproar, he could
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understand. But, most certainly, he signed no resolution or resolutions whatever, and he cautioned gentlemen how they went to meetings in future, the resolutions of which might be inserted in the public journals, with their names, without their authorities.
Mr. Franklandthought what might be the conduct of any gent. at a private meeting immaterial in the discussion of this bill. It was stated to be one of imperious necessity; but if so, that necessity should be proved, and then every objection, though even of a much stronger nature, would give way before it. He did not suppose that it would abate the ardour of the militia officers in the defence of their country, but some great necessity should be shewn for the adoption of a measure, by which, without that, their feelings must be wounded. Under the present circumstances he must oppose it, as impolitic and unjust, although, if otherwise, he should take pride in turning over to the regulars such men as appeared most likely to obtain most distinctions in the field of battle. He could not approve the policy of this change, which could not give us an offensive force, while the threatened danger of the country required that the men should be kept at home. He was indeed sure, that the whole force and talents of the country should be concentered for its protection, but that should always be done with a proper reference to our mild constitution. In the year 1799, there existed great political necessity, as we had then a gallant army, critically circumstanced in an enemy's country, and for the purpose of rescuing and preserving that brave army, he should not oppose any practicable method, if such could be found, of transporting not only the militia, but the whole population of the country, for its relief. This plan, therefore, did not bring an accession of 17,000 men to our offensive force, but transferred them from one branch of defensive force to another; and that in a manner calculated to produce dissatisfaction and disunion in the service. It should not be lost sight of, that in its present state, the militia was a great defensive force, created by the parliament, and so formed, as to be a check against any such improvident or ruinous enterprise, or expeditions of the ministers, if any such were meditated. To deprive the people of such a force, raised from themselves, and for their own defence, was as unjust as it was impolitic. Such varying systems, from day

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to day welt inconsistent with stable maxims and principles of any country, and rendered it impossible to depend upon any expectations which might afterwards be conceived of them; whereas, by adhering to some steady and permanent military system, this country, considering, the spirit that now actuated it, would he enabled to keep up an army of transcendent excellence.
General Tarletonthought it was rather an inconsistency to call upon all the talents of the country to put the army on a proper footing, and at the same time to deny that there was any necessity for the present measure. In the third year of a war, like the present, of the most fromidable description ever known it was rather extraordinary to hear gentlemen speak as if it were a mere guerre de pots de chambre, as an illustrious character had denominated one the petty civil wars of France. The effect of having a large disposeable force would be to change the nature of the war from defensive to offensive, to free the country from the apprehension of becoming itself the scene of war, a calamity which every man who was acquainted with war and the scenes that accompanied it, would wish to remove far from any place he had an affection for. This measure, if it was disagreeable to the militia colonels, was brought upon them by themselves. If they had agreed to the interchange of the services of the militia between the different kingdoms of the empire, the services of the English militia in Ireland would have set free 20,000 regular troops, hitherto locked up in that country. The militia-men, as he had convinced himself by a very close inspection, were highly disciplined, and wanted but to be accustomed a little to the regular service, to make them as good soldiers as any in it.
Sir W. Elfordmade a few observations, in answer to what fell from the hon. gent. who spoke last but one. When a measure of this sort was originally proposed in 1779, the army had not gone to Holland. A second application had been made to and parliament for relief to that army, and it had been granted. The hon. gent.'s argument then, so far as it depended upon the expedition to Holland, fell to the ground. The house then divided on the speaker's leaving the chair,

Ayes

113

Noes

49

Majority

64

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On the re-admission of strangers into the gallery,
Mr. Gileswas speaking on the necessity that there appeared to him to be of the bill expressing more clearly whether the Supplementary Militia bill was or was not repealed. The present measure was a partial repeal of the Additional Force act, which was itself a repeal of the act for calling out the Supplementary Militia.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the most regular way for the hon. gent. to have proceeded, would be either to introduce any additional clauses he might think necessary, or else to move an alteration in the preamble of the bill. He however, had no hesitation in admiting, that the act of the last sessi on had put an end to the Supplementary Militia, and that his majesty had not now the power of calling them out If the whole number that were now expected to volunteer should join the regulars, such an accession, together with the ordinary recruiting would make then unnecessary. On the reading of the first clause of the bill,
Mr. Yorkefelt it necessary to repeat the observations he had thrown out on a former evening. He wished that a proportion of those who should volunteer from the militia, might be added to the royal marines, and he did not wish that any of them should be allowed to volunteer for either the foot guards or the cavalry. The principle of the bill was to increase our disposable army, and he could not consider either the cavalry or the foot guards as equally disposable with the regiments of the line. He allowed that the guards were a very fine body of men, but it had not been the custom to employ them in colonial service, like the marching regiments; besides, their number was now nearly complete. He also thought that a proportion of them would be well employed in the royal artillery. He therefore moved as an amendment to the clause, that, instead of the words "his majesty's regular forces," should be inserted the following, "the regiments of the line, royal artillery, and marines."
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not at all object to a proportion of the volunteers going into the royal marines, but he thought it would be better to leave a discretionary power in his majesty to settle what that proportion should be. He also agreed with the right hon. gent. respecting the cavalry, and admitted that the power of

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sending them into that description of force should be very sparingly used; but he did not wish that it should be excluded altogether. Neither did he wish that many of them should enter the guards, although he must remark, that in all the recent wars the guards had very much distinguished themselves. They had not only fought in Flanders, Germany, and lately in Egypt; but in a former war they had been sent to North America. He therefore considered them completely as disposable troops; he then, in compliance with the suggestions of the right hon. gent. agreed, that the words "Battalions of Royal Artillery and Marine," should be added after the words "Regular Forces," in the clause. The clause as so amended was agreed to. On the clause for allowing the militia officers to select the men they wished to deep in the regiment;
Mr. Yorkecould not agree to this clause. He neither wished to make the militia inefficient by taking all their best men from them, nor did he think it right that only the worst should be sent to join the disposable force. What appeared to him a proper medium, would be to allow a certain proportion only, suppose a third or a fourth, of the flank companies and front rank men to enter into the regular service. Should more of them volunteer, he thought it would best be determined by ballot, who should be accepted; he thought it would be an extreme hardship to tell a brave soldier, who was desirous of honour, You must not volunteer or get the bounty, because you are a good soldier and a credit to the regiment, but such a man may volunteer, because he has been inattentive to his military duties, and is rather a disgrace to the regiment. For these reasons he could not agree to the clause as it stood.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid he had introduced this clause for tile purpose of meeting, as far as possible, the sentiments of the militia officers, and was convinced, that in whatever mode a considerable number of the militia could be brought to volunteer, they would still be a most valuable accession, to the regular army. He wished to give a discretionary power to the militia officers to make the selection as they thought proper, he did not wish them to part only with their worst men. He concluded by moving as an amendment, that after the word "chase," should be added thes words, "by ballot or other-
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wise." Sir James Pulteney, Lord Temple, General Norton, and Colonel Stanley, were for giving the militia officers the power of selecting. General Tarleton thought it of much more consequence that the best men should be sent to the disposable force, than that they should stay in the militia regiments. The Chancellor of the Exchequer expected that when the legislature had once pronounced their opinion on the subject there would be an honourable emulation among the militia officers, to send good and efficient soldiers to the regular army. This clause was then agreed to, as was another, which provided that if a sufficient number did not volunteer out of the half set apart by the militia officer, the deficiency should be made good out of the remaining part of the regiment.—On the clause which mentioned general service for life;
General Fitzpatrickrose, and moved as an amendment, that the term should be for 5 years, or until 6 months after a definitive treaty of peace. He grounded his argument, not only on general reasons, but on the conduct of government to the militia in a similar case, in the year 1799.—This motion produced a very long and desultory conversation, in which lord Temple, Sir James Pulteney, general Norton, colonel Stanley, general Tarleton, and sir W. W. Wynne, took a share.
Mr. Foxsaid that he was a friend to the clause that provided for the service being limited, instead of being for life, because it was founded on principles of justice, and agreeable to the spirit of the constitution of this country, and not repugnant to any military principle whatever; and when he should have an opportunity of giving a vote upon such a question, he should never give it for enlisting men for life; yet he wished his right hon. friend on this occasion not to take the sense of the house, because as this was a limited and partial question, many might be against this particular clause under all the circumstances of the case, who might approve of the principle, and adopt it on another, and what might appear to them a more fit occasion; and he did wish that the majority against such a principle should be greater in appearance than reality. He hoped his right hon. friend, than whom nobody was more capable, would take some opportunity of bringing this subject before parliament, and he hoped that as it was a point on which military opinions were divided, as he now

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heard, the question would be fully considered by parliament, since we were almost, if not altogether, the only power in Europe which supported its military establishment by enlisting men fir life, and we were the very last that ought to adopt such a system, because it was wholly repugnant to the true principles of the constitution of this country, on which its glory and consequently its real interest was founded.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved on the general question which had been just alluded to: and remarked that the opinions of military men were much divided on the subject of enlisting soldiers for a term of years, instead of for life. Many military characters of the first estimation thought it would be attended with consequences highly injurious to the service. They also thought it impracticable during war. He did not now argue the point, but merely mentioned it, as a matter of great and serious difficulty at any time, and so doubtful in policy, that he should feel himself under the necessity of opposing such a measure whenever brought forward. No analogy could be drawn from the practice of foreign countries; none of them were under circumstances similar to this.
Mr. Foxsaid, that as to its being a measure which could not be adopted in time of war, nothing was more easy than to include in it a provision that none of the men should be discharged during war; and indeed this very thing was done in one of the bills brought in last war by the right hon. gent. himself; but that was of little importance, for the right hon. gent. had no respect for his own bills.
General Fitzpatrickobserved, that in the clause he had offered, he copied the very words to be found in one of the bills of the chancellor of the exchequer last war; but, however, he should follow the advice of his hon. friend, and withdraw the clause.
Earl Templeproposed a clause, subjecting every person, who shall unfairly enlist any man out of the militia, to a penalty of 20 l. or in default of payment, to imprisonment, not exceeding three months, nor less than six weeks.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeropposed it on the ground that it might give birth to hardships upon serjeants, and other recruiting officers, for having offered money to a man in a public house, &c. which
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would be injurious to the service, and no advantage to the public. Government would take care, that as few abuses as possible should take place in the practice of enlisting.
Mr. Ellisonthought there ought to be some security against the recruiting serjeants tampering with men.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the best security against that was, that both the labour and the money would be lost, if any thing of that nature took place, because unless he was fairly enlisted, he could never be attested.
Sir. W. W. Wynnesaid, that without such a clause as this in the act of parliament, there could be no security whatever against mal-practices in this respect. They could not depend on the orders of the executive government in such cases.—The militia ought to be protected against that most dangerous animal, a recruiting serjeant.
Mr. Bankesexpressed an intention to offer a material amendment in the bill in another, stage.—The committee went through the bill, and the house being resumed, the report was received immediately, and was ordered to be taken into further consideration to-morrow, and the bill with the amendments, was ordered to be printed.—Adjourned.

MINUTES.
Counsel were farther heard on the Scotch Appeal, sir A. Cathcart, bart. v. the earl of Cassilis, namely, Mr. Clarke, in continuation, as second counsel for the appellant. The farther consideration of the case was postponed till to-morrow.—The bills upon the table were forwarded in their several stages; among these the Additional Legacy Duty bill went through a committee, and was afterwards reported.—Some private business was disposed of; after which the house adjourned till to-morrow.