Sitting of 21 March 1805

MINUTES.
—Mr. Bully, from the Exchequer Office, presented an Account of the Produce of the Permanent Taxes, the progress made in the liquidation of the national debt, and the surplus amount of the Consolidated Fund; which were ordered to be printed.—A message from the lords stated their having agreed to Lord J. Thynne's Indemnity, the Marine Mutiny, and some Private bills.—The Irish Customs, Excise, Post Office, Stamps, and Malt Duty bills, were read a 3rd time and passed.

IRISH LUNATICS BILL.
Sir John Newportrose to submit to the house the motion of which he had some time since given notice, for leave to bring in a bill to regulate the practice in Ireland with regard to the confinement of lunatics and idiots. By the 27th of his present majesty, the poor and the lunatics of Ireland were confined in the I same houses, a practice from which the most distressing inconveniencies had frequently resulted. He wished the appointment of distinct asylums for lunatics and idiots. The existing method of confinement Was only calculated for malefactors, but not for lunatics. Proper care cannot be taken of lunatics without separate institutions. He had therefore to propose a bill for establishing an asylum for each of the four provinces to contain 250 patients. These asylums to be in the central towns of the principal counties. The provinces to bear the expence, which is to be imposed by assessment; and a report to be made, from time to time, to the judges of assize, of the management, funds, and whole concerns and situation of the four asylums. He had bestowed much attention, for many years, on this subject, and was persuaded that the measure he was about to propose, was one which the situation of the public institutions in Ireland loudly demanded. Accordingly, he concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill for establishing Provincial Asylums for Lunatics and Idiots in Ireland.
Colonel Bagwellin seconding the mo-

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tion, thanked the hon. baronet for the pains he had taken to examine into the subject in question. There was a necessity for the asylums. He went once to the gaol o Clonmell, to enquire respecting this subject; from the bellowing and hideous noise of the lunatics there, the ordinary sick were prevented from taking their natural rest.—After a short conversation, in explanation o the mode of raising the funds for the Asylums, between Mr. Rose, Sir J. Newport Mr. Corry, and Mr. Foster, leave was giver to bring in the bill.

IRISH LOAN AND EXCHANGE.
Lord A. Hamiltonpursuant to notice, rose to submit his motion on this subject to the house. In bringing forward the resolution which he should have the honour to propose, he was not actuated by any sentiment of hostility to the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Foster.) When he had first called the attention of the house to this subject, he had stated, that the excessive issue of paper had arisen from the restriction of issues of specie from the Bank, and had produced the consequent depreciation. The object of his motion was, a disapprobation of the measures that had been taken by the commissioners of the treasury in order to remedy the high rate of exchange. Their measure were of a partial and temporary nature, answering no one purpose proposed, and leaving the exchange in precisely the same state. The noble lord here read from the papers on the table the different rates of exchange at which the Irish treasury had offered at different times their drafts upon this country, from 11½ per cent. to 8 1–3d at par; and contended, that by giving their drafts at par, whilst the actual exchange was 13 or at least 12 per cent. they negociated the transmission of the loan at the loss to the public of 40,000l. on every million, and he should ask whether this was fair, legal, and regular? An expectation was entertained in Dublin that the measures of the treasury would reduce the exchange to par; and, consequently, the whole of the sums advertised had not been purchased whilst the rate was above par; but, when the accommodation had been offered at par, though the sum wanted did not exceed 150,000l. the sum of 500,000l. was subscribed; and such was the eagerness and avidity to procure a share of it, that a kind of riot had taken place amongst the bidders at the castle, which required the military to suppress. The house, he trusted, would put an end to this practice in future, as it had
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produced no advantage, but great loss to public. The restriction of cash payments had caused an excessive issue of paper, which enabled the Bank Directors to give a bonus of 5 per cent. last year, making the total dividend on their stock 12 per cent. He should ask the right hon. chancellor of the exchequer under what possible circumstances he could renew the payments in specie? As the restriction had now existed during a period of peace and of war, as the effect of it was an excessive issue of paper, and a consequent depreciation of it, and as by the measures pursued by the Irish treasury, a loss of 40,000l. had fallen on the public in every million, and as amidst this desolation of the finances of Ireland, the only stock that thrived was Bank Stock, he should therefore move his resolution, "That it appeared to the house that a considerable part of the sums raised in G. Britain for Ireland, for the service of the year 1804, had been transmitted to Ireland by Bank of England Post Bills; and that said bills had been sold in Dublin by the commissioners of the treasury, by public advertisement, at rates inferior to those at which they had been before sold."—The other resolutions expressed disapprobation of the conduct of the Irish treasury in so doing.—On the question being put on the first resolution,
Mr. Fosterobserved, that whatever complexion the noble lord might put on his resolutions, they amounted to a direct charge on the commissioners of the treasury in Ireland. He had confounded the question of exchange with the conduct of the treasury. The right hon. gent. begged to state the nature of the transaction. A large loan had been negociated in England for the service of Ireland, and he had applied in Nov. to the Directors of the Bank in Ireland, to bring over the money, which they had refused, lest it should injure their character for impartiality, as some of them were concerned in the business of exchange. The commissioners were obliged to order it over in Bank of England Post Bills, which they sold in Dublin. They first advertised a sum of 200,000l. at 11½ per cent. but only 170,000l. were subscribed. The next sum they advertised was of the same amount at 10 per cent. and only 170,000l. was obtained. They then found themselves under a necessity of disposing of the bill at par, which was 8 1–3d, in order to procure the sums required for the public service. But during the whole of this period, the actual state of exchage fluctuated between 8½ and

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10 or 11, to which it had in one or two instances, risen for a short time. The noble lord could not therefore make out that any loss had been sustained by the public by this transaction. The question of exchange was not regularly before the house, but he would be indulged with an observation upon. it. The state of exchange depended on the general balance of pecuniary transaction between two countries, and in this respect it was favourable to Ireland so large a sure of money having been transmitted. The restriction of the issues of specie was the primary cause of all the unfavourable state of the currency and exchange, unknown before, but whose interest it was to keep it high. Another cause was the over issue of paper. In the months of May, June, and July, the Bank of Ireland diminished its issue from three to two millions and a half, and the exchange fell. In August they increased it again to 3 millions, and the exchange rose. The same consequence had happened in 1753, from the breaking of the Bank, and in the reign of King William, from the base coin. Where guineas were paid, the exchange was at 5 per cent. being 3 below par. The right hon. gent. contended no ground had been made out for the motion, and therefore to get rid of it, moved the order of the day.
Lord Henry Pettyagreed in the whole doctrine laid down by the right hon. gent. as to the causes of the unfavourable state of the exchange for Ireland. He agreed also that the question was a direct charge upon the treasury of Ireland. But he disclaimed on his own part and that of his noble friend, any intention to make a charge upon the right hon. gent, whose conduct, if brought before the house, would intitle him to its gratitude. There had been considerable misconduct in the Irish treasury, in their management of the bringing over the loan. They had departed from the usual mode, and thereby occasioned considerable loss to the public. The right hon. gent. disclaimed any idea of lowering the exchange, though the expectation had prevailed to that effect, as appeared from the full sum required having been subscribed when the exchange was lowered to par. The noble lord here read an extract from the report of the committee on the Irish currency and exchange, to spew that it was improper in the lords of the treasury to interfere with the exchange, as it would encourage jobbing, which had literally taken place in this case, persons having bought
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the bills and re-sold them at a profit. He should therefore vote for the proposition of his noble friend.
The Chancellor of the Exchequermaintained that the conduct of the Irish treasury had been correct, as it was the duty of the commissioners to provide the money for the public occasions. It was a perversion of terms to infer that the depreciation of paper had any real effect on the exchange. He allowed that the excessive issue of paper produced a depreciation. The fact was, that in each country there was a different circulating medium, and the depreciation of either could have only a nominal effect on the course of exchange. The remittance of so large a sum as four millions and a half, would have had the effect of lowering the exchange, even if the operation of the Irish treasury had not taken place. The ground of the noble lord's charge of a loss to the public, appeared to rest on a supposition, that the rate of actual exchange would have continued the whole time at 13 per cent.; but was it to be supposed the Irish treasury could have procured purchasers at 13 per cent. when they had failed at 11½? for these reasons he thought that no ground had been laid for the noble lord's motion.
Mr. Foxwas glad to hear the right, hon. gent. allowing that an excessive issue caused a depreciation, and that the house was never again to hear the fantastical opinion that paper was not depreciated, but the value of gold raised, as well as that these evils proceeded exclusively from the restriction on the Bank, As long as the Bank paid in specie, there had been no excess, because in that case the issue carried its own remedy with it, being payable in specie. The question here was, that the new method had produced an effect which the the old method never had. 'Whether the loss to the public was to the extent of the difference between 11½ and 13 per cent. it was impossible to tell now, but he thought sufficient ground had been laid for the proposition of his noble friend.
Mr. Leesaid, that having been a member of the committee upon Irish affairs, and having attended carefully to the evidence they produced, he had some good reasons to suspect the committee to have been mistaken, in having ascribed the depreciation of Irish notes to the over issuing of paper by the Bank. The issues of the Bank of Ireland were ascertained and well known; but it was the less surprising, that the paper of that company should be depreciated at home

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home, when even the paper of the Bank of England experienced in that country a depreciation of 3½. per cent.
Mr. Alexanderalso considered the depreciation to be owing to circumstances altogether unconnected with the Bank of Ireland; for the private Bankers, even about Dublin, actually circulated notes beyond the issue of the national Bank; which, being by one of its bye-laws obliged to discount mercantile bills at one per cent. below the legal interest, gave to other Banks a great advantage over it.
Mr. J. Latoucheexpressed himself favourable to the motion, on the ground that the lords of the treasury in Ireland, by the mode they adopted in this instance, did not obtain terms for the public, which they might have done, even under the circumstance of the times. Much was certainly lost by the generally credited report, that the exchange of the two countries was to be reduced to par, and the report not having been contradicted by the Government, which was perfectly well acquainted with its existence, and its procedure deterred the merchants from coming forward on the occasion.
Mr. Fosterin explanation, observed, that the committee of last year, so frequently alluded to, had disapproved of the old mode of draining hills at par upon England. The method which they seemed to point out, of having recourse to the assistance of the Bank of Ireland, had been resorted to; but they having declined all interference, the lords of the treasure, unwilling to return to the mode condemned by the committee, found themselves, by necessity, compelled to recur to a new method of their own.
Mr. Greyobserved that, though the right hon. gent. said he had but one alternative left, either to return to the old mode condemned by the committee, or discover some new one himself, he would take the liberty of reminding him, that it was not drawing bills at par upon England which was condemned by the committee, but the attempts of the lords of the Irish treasury to lower the balance of exchange. Near 200,000l of the loan of last year was remitted in the ordinary way, and had no bad effect. By the measure the treasury took, it placed itself in the situation of man who should have property to sell, and should advertise that he must sell it on a particular day; the obvious Consequence of which would be the depreciation of his property, from a knowledge beforehand of his necessity.
Sir W. Pulteneyremarked, that when large
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sums were remitted, the exchange must be affected. The subject of the over issue had not been sufficiently investigated. As to the depreciated state of the paper of Ireland, it was a fact of which several gentlemen might not be aware, that the notes of the Bank of England were at a discount of 3 per cent. in Ireland.
Mr. H. Thorntonthought the noble lord had not sufficient grounds for his present motion; it was not the manner of passing, bills, but the quantity in the market, which, was the occasion of the increase or depreciation of the rate of exchange. He was afraid that the reduction of the issue of the paper of the Bank of Ireland could not be expected at present. He was surprised that they had not taken the hint given in the report of the committee.—After this, lord A. Hamilton said a few words in reply, and his motion was negatived without a division.

MILITIA ENLISTMENT BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the object of the measure he intended to propose was, instead of the gradual reduction of the Militia to' the original establishment of 40,000 for England, and 8,000 for Scotland, to make the reduction directly, by allowing the supernumeraries now existing above that amount, to volunteer into the line. By the returns of the militia, as it now stood for England and Scotland, for he would propose nothing with respect to Ireland at present, the amount was 70,000 men. On reference to the Militia acts it appeared that the total number of 41,000 for England, and 8,000 for Scotland, were described as privates, in which description corporals were not included. It was necessary, therefore, to make allowance for corporals, who were included in the return of rank and file. The number of corporals in the force to be kept up was 2,300, making in the whole number for England and Scotland something above 1000. Consequently the difference between that and the existing force afforded something about 17,000 men to be applied to the augmentation of the disposable force. Notwithstanding the variety of opinions that existed with respect to all military measures, it was a thing agreed on all sides, that an addition of 17,000 men, to be made in a moderate time to our disposable force, would be a great and important accession of national strength in the point in which it was most desirable; he would say further, at a time when the existing circumstances of Europe rendered it likely that our dis-

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posable force could he employed with most advantage; the beneficial effects of the measure would be still heightened, because it was not merely men that would be gained for the regular army, but trained and disciplined soldiers, of a description far beyond What our regular army afforded till within these few years. The acquisition would be thus doubly valuable. Great, however, and desirable as this acquisition was allowed to be by all who expressed their sentiments on the military state of the country, he would not have desired it if he thought ,the measure by which he proposed to carry it into 'effect was of such a nature as to be attended With any serious detriment to the Militia as it now stands, or as it was allowed by law to be ultimately fixed. He was one of those who held the unabated zeal and unalienable pride of the Militia leaders as one of the best points in the country, and he should be sorry to do any thing to impair so valuable a spirit. The house and the country were 'called upon by the circumstances of the present moment to carry into effect the determination formed last session, that the Militia ought not to be maintained at an amount more than 40,000 for England, and 8000 for Scotland. This determination had been formed on the ground that the number of men now locked up for defensive purposes was too great, with a view to a description of force which may be employed for the defence of Ireland and the islands in the channel, and still more with respect to a 'disposable force, and the means of recruiting that force. The commanding officers of the militia, men of the highest respectability, had, besides, Concurred that the number of militia officers could no longer be maintained consistently with the constitution of the militia. The ballot fell so heavy, and the procuring officers was so difficult, that the best friends of the militia allowed the best service that could be done to it was to reduce it to the original amount. On these considerations the house had passed an act, in virtue of which all vacancies occurring till the Militia was reduced to that standard Were not to be filled up. It happened that by the remoteness from the permanent establishment, by the slowness and uncertainty in the approach to it, by the fluctuations Which the occasional decrease occasioned, the strength of the battalions was liable to constant variations, and the companies continued disproportioned in their strength, so that neither could be counted upon as affording any certain force to be calculated
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upon for any one military purpose. This fluctuation was a further ground for the reduction, and the deficiency of officers, not merely officers properly qualified, was such that there would be not more than sufficient for the reduced establishment, there being at present above 500 vacancies for officers in the Militia. If the superfluous men were in the end to be reduced, if while they remained they were not constituted in the most advantageous manner for the public service, was there ever a case in which there was juster cause for allowing to be carried into immediate effect by volunteering, which was the ultimate object of the determination of the last session, and what was acknowledged to be most useful and desirable to the country? It was generally known from report, it, was known to him from more particular authority, that there never was a period at which the militia were more desirous to give their fullest services to their country's cause, if they were permitted.— This was, in truth, the moment at which it was most desirable to bring forward such a proposition, a moment at which he would be justified in saying, no difficulty stood in the way of it, if he had not, from the communications he had with the commanding officers of the militia regiments, learned that some of them were adverse to it. Much however, as he respected the opinions of these gentlemen, he could not, in compliment to them, desist from a measure which his public duty required him to carry forward. But he would consult their sentiments and wishes in the arrangement as far as possible consistently with his duty, and it was a satisfaction to him to think, that the reduction he proposed would leave the militia still in a state in which its spirit would not be diminished, nor its character impaired, in a state altogether such that its commanders would have no reason to regret the change that would have taken place. It was not necessary in this stage of the business to go into the detail. The number it was proposed to take was 17,000, out of 68,000 that were now embodied. Thus the proportion that would be called upon to volunteer from each regiment was such, that it was not likely to deteriorate the part that remained. The greater proportion would remain, and may be composed of or may include those men for whom the officers had a predeliction. It was, indeed, a satisfaction that the militia was so constituted, that if its own officers were to chuse the men they were to retain, the remainder

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would be highly valuable to the army; or if the officers of the army were to select those they would take, those who would remain would be still valuable for the militia. The mode of regulating the volunteering that he proposed was, that when the quotas for the counties should be fixed, and the orders specifying the quotas they were respectively to furnish; a time, not very long, should be allowed to each officer to select those of the men disposed to volunteer, with whom he was most willing to part, and to tender them. If the men so tendered should amount to four-fifths of the quota of the regiment, the regiment should be released from all further claims. This regulation afforded the commanding officer the means of excluding all intervention that could be disagreeable to his feelings. If, on the expiration of the term allowed, the proportion of four-fifths of the quota should not be furnished, the Commanding Officer was to have the liberty of setting apart one-half of the regiment to constitute the foundation of the regiment that was to remain to him: the other half was to be handed over to government to take from it the proportion of volunteers to which it was entitled, the remainder to be given back to complete the regiment. If a greater number should volunteer than Government was entitled to take, they were to be reduced to the just proportion by ballot. For example, in a regiment of 1000 men to be reduced to 700, commanding officer may set aside 500 men, to whom no offer could be made, and who were to remain to him without any disturbance whatsoever. From the other 500 government would take its quota, and the remainder was to be restored to the commanding officer, to form his regiment at the reduced establishment. Out of 68,000, the present amount of the effective Militia, 34,000 were to be set aside to remain untouched, as the foundation of the 51,000, which would form the whole of the reduced Militia. When government would have taken its proportion of the other 34,000, that was about one half, the remainder would be restored, and if four-fifth of that proportion were provided and offered at the time limited, the regiments would remain undisturbed by any further call. Thus he set out on a proposition that left no room for jealousy to the commanding officers; and whatever mode was adopted the effect
could not but be desirable to the a regular army. The mode he proposed seemed altogether the best calculated to meet the
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wishes and desires of the persons concerned. It was not necessary to enter further into the details of tie measure, unless any gentleman desired information on a Particular point. When the bill should be introduced, he would feel the same desire to attend to the suggestions of gentlemen as he had in framing the measure in the first instance, and above all, he should be careful not to diminish that spirit and pride which was the most beneficial characteristic of the militia, and the greatest advantage the country derived from those who devoted their attention to this valuable branch of the public force. He concluded with moving for leave to bring in a Bill for allowing h certain proportion of the Militia of G. Britain, voluntarily to enlist into his majesty's regular forces.
Earl Templebefore he expressed his sentiments on the subject, wished to enquire of the right hon. gent. whether any order had as yet been given by government to facilitate the receiving men as volunteers from the Militia into the regular army.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerin reply, stated, that he had no reason to think that any such proceeding had taken place.— Orders might, indeed, have been sent to dispatch recruiting parties to receive such volunteers as presented themselves.
Earl Templeresumed by arguing that this very proposition before the house was the best possible proof of the inefficiency of that Defence bill of the right hon. gent. the repeal of which he had so vehemently opposed, Formerly the militia were only to undergo a gradual reduction, and the right hon. gent. seemed to count days and months for the accomplishment of what his bill was to effect for the recruiting of the regular army. Now, however, these expectations were shown to be completely fallacious, and, therefore, to remedy this defect, the militia were not by slow gradations, but by one blow to be reduced to the number of 40,000. This, he maintained, was grossly unjust, and totally contrary to that principle of the abolition of the ballot which the right hon. gent. held out as the grand recommendation of his bill. Here, however, the militia being reduced to 40,000, to which number it was to be kept up, the ballot, as soon as ever any vacancies occurred, must come again into operation. Hardly 24 hours might elapse before the odious exploded system of ballot would be required to keep up the militia to its full complement. The right hon. gent. had

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rested a great deal on the general conviction entertained of the necessity of a disposable force. He, for one, would be the last man to deny the existence of this necessity, but he did not on that account feel himself called on to admit this disposable force was to be obtained in the way now proposed. The right hon. gent. had said that never was there a moment when the ardour of the militia to volunteer into the regular army was more conspicuous. On this subject he had a few observations to submit to the house, but he would first of all refer to the pledges which the militia officers had at different times received on the subject of any future reduction. Under the former administration of the right hon. gent. a solemn pledge was given that the idea of reducing the militia, world not be again recurred to. He knew that it would not be regular in him to allude to what had passed in the other house of parliament. He might be permitted, however, to state it as a matter of history, that a noble lord (Sidmouth) in another place, who was then in administration, on moving for extending the militia to its present amount, did also give a solemn pledge that the system of the militia, should not henceforth be attacked. These two governments were now united, and he would not take upon himself to determine how much they coincided in opinion. He was much inclined to think that they agreed in nothing so completely, as in mutually forgetting their pledges to the militia officers. He had already referred to an observation of the right hon. gent. that there never was a moment when the militia was more inclined to volunteer into the regular army. While such a statement went forth to the public, it was requisite that the real state of the case should be explained. At a meeting of Lord Lieutenants of counties, and gentlemen interested in the preservation of the militia system, the right hon. gent. had assured them that every thing should be done in the gentlest manner possible, and that all pains should be taken to prevent the slightest insubordination in that part of the militia, whose limited services were to be continued. But how, in point of fact, did the matter stand? He could on this subject take on himself to assure the house on the most unquestionable authority, that means of a very improper nature had even now been resorted to, to procure volunteers from the militia, and to detach them from their colours. He had himself the honour to be colonel of a militia regiment, and he had
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been within these few days informed, by the officer who commanded in his absence; that recruiting parties from the 1st battalion of guards had actually appeared among the men, and endeavoured to seduce them front their present situation into the regular army. A letter had been written on this subject to the colonel of this battalion of the guards, and his answer was, "that these parties had gone down to places where militia regiments were quartered with the express view of receiving recruits from these regiments.' When this was notoriously the fact, he hoped the house would hear no more of the delicacy with which the militia officers were to be treated. He would, on the contrary, maintain that such practices as those he had lust alluded to were the most degrading that could he conceived to the feelings of the militia officers. The right hon. gent. had often talked of his affection for the militia; but he left it to the determination of the house how far such declarations were entitled to any degre of credit. Every one of the right hon. gent.'s acts relative to the militia seemed rather to Drove that he was axious for the total abolition of the militia system. Could there be a greater proof of this than the practice to which he had referred, which, though it. might not have proceeded directly from the right hon. gent. was a proof of the general disposition of government. He complained too that courts martials, as well as sentences of courts martials, were suspended. Though he allowed that this was for the purpose of applying the new clauses of the mutiny act, he could not help thinking that such a suspension at the present period was at all judicious. It had a great tendency to excite a spirit of insubordination, particularly in the militia regiments, combined with those arts of seduction, which he had felt it his duty to condemn in the severest terms. He was wholly adverse to the measure, as a direct tax on the landed interest. Every vacancy that occurred would operate as a fresh' tax, and this too, after the solemn pledges to which he had referred. The Militia were now to be reduced to 40,900, but how did the house know how soon it might be reduced to 20,000, or what arts might be employed to encourage volunteering into the regular army. The noble lord here again alluded to the arts employed to detach the militia from their commanders, and touched on the pledges of the right hon. gent. to those present at the interview of which he had already taken notice.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerspoke to order, and thought his lordship ought not to allude to any thing which he, in the way of private communication, and to facilitate the removal of doubts and difficulties, had mentioned. He would leave, he said, to the noble lord himself to determine as to the propriety of doing so, but he must appeal to the Speaker for the order of the thing.
Earl Templesaid, the communication was not confidential, and he thought he might therefore mention it.
The Speakerinformed him, that in doing so he was debating a different question, and was, of course, out of order.
Earl Templeresumed. He conceived the proposition of the right hon. gent. which he had alluded to, was made at the time of the expedition to Holland. But the proposition, as it was now put in practice by the right hon. gent. was not only to encourage volunteering from the Militia into the line, but to hire and suborn recruiting serjeants, first to promote debauchery and insubordination in the regiments, and then to crimp a certain number of men, as best suited their purpose, leaving the remainder to the care of their officers, who would have the satisfaction of seeing returned them, out of half the number of their regiment, 150 of the mere refuse! The noble lord concluded his speech by recapitulating his former arguments, and expressing his firm and decided opposition to the present measure.
Lord Stanleyexpressed his disapprobation of the bill, on account of its injustice in so many different points; it was subversive of the constitution of the Militia regiments, and directly contradictory to the many pledges that had been given to the house, particularly by the right hon. gent. himself. He had given this pledge, as many would recollect, during a debate in 1799, and again more recently on the Defence act. From several important considerations, he must give his decided negative to the bill.
The Marquis of Douglasexpressed his disapprobation of the plan proposed, which he considered as tending materially to hurt the militia service, and likewise to retard the recruiting for the line. That an accession to our disposable force was extremely desirous, he thought no person would be found to deny, considering that question abstractedly. But the present proposition ought to be viewed under the particular circumstances that attended it. If the house called to mind the use made by ministers of
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what disposable force they had possessed, with what confidence could they place in their hands the addition now called for? The right hon. gent. had stated the difficulty of getting officers. Did not this proceed from the fault of government, which had broken faith with the Militia, and had placed them in their present degraded situation? Were not this the case, abundance of gentlemen would be found ready to come forward and officer the different regiments: but the deceptions practised upon them prevented it. At one time the fear of invasion was raised, at another the necessity of foreign service. When the right hon. gent. should submit his new plan for the further degradation of the militia, he should, both from his feelings and every other consideration of the question, give it his hearty opposition. It was held out that these men were to be procured for the regular service on cheap terms; but individuals had paid the expence; and after all, with bounty, and the gratifications of the ale-houses, he really believed that the cost of a recruit would amount to more for the regular army, than by the ordinary mode of recruiting that part of the public force.
Colonel Calcraftsaid he should reserve the fuller delivery of his sentiments till a future occasion presented itself. He wished, however, to know, whether the men were to be enlisted for life, and for unlimited service. He was likewise not perfectly clear in his understanding of what fell from the chancellor of the exchequer, respecting the number of four-fifths of the recruits being made up from the Militia regiments.
Sir James Pulteneythought it could hardly he necessary for any person to ask for any particular reasons being given for the proposed measure, which was merely a proposition, that, if carried into effect, went to make the men more useful to the country than their present mode of service could possibly render them. Under the various limitations and restrictions that were proposed, he could not perceive that any injury would be sustained by the militia service in general. On the contrary, he was led to think, that though the battalions were less in number, they would, from the provisions of this measure, be made more effectual in point of strength, and, consequently, more useful. A great part of the safety of the country, he considered to have been owing to the steps taken with respect to the militia, in the year 1799, during the last war. Upon the whole view of the subject, he was

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convinced that the plan proposed deserved. to be supported.
Mr. Bastardtook notice of the three reasons alledged for the introduction of this extraordinary measure; namely, the want of men for the regular army; the scarcity of officers for the Militia, and the stated ardour of the men belonging to the Militia to volunteer for the regular army. Now, as to the 1st, he conceived it to proceed from the inefficiency of the measure adopted at the instance of the present ministers, for the augmentation of our regular army; the 2nd, he thought a very natural result of that system of tampering with the Militia, which had obtained of late years, particularly under ,the auspices of the right hon. mover of the proposition before the house. As to the 3d allegation, that many of the Militia were ready to volunteer into the line; the manner which seemed to have been taken to ascertain, or rather to excite that disposition, had been already stated, and animadverted upon with proper severity by a noble lord (Temple.) To what that noble lord had stated he should only say,. that it appeared to him. absolutely nothing less than an endeavour to excite a spirit of mutiny among the militia, to render them discontentd with the force in which they were engaged and to which they were sworn— Flectere si nequeo superos Acheronta movebo.—Ministers seemed resolved to stop at no expedients, to respect no boundary however venerable, no institution however sacred; to attain an object which they promised when they displaced their predecessors, to accomplish without delay or difficulty. The hon. gent. complimented the late economical and constitutional ministry, as he described them, for declining to lay a sacrilegious hand on the militia, and declared that he Should rather see the militia system dissolved altogether than thus mutilated and frittered away. He conjured the house not to give way to such bills as the right hon. gent. who proposed this motion was in the habit of bringing forward. He said, the militia officers considered this as a measure of debasement, and he agreed with the noble lord who spoke last, that the difficulty of procuring militia officers was owing to the degrading situation they had been placed in, of serving as mere drill-serjeants, to raise men as militia; and the moment they became disciplined by their labour and attention, they were seduced away, and enlisted into the army. Where were all the magnificent promises made by the right hon.
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gent. when he brought in his Defence bill? What was become of the abusive epithets he had used of "imbecile and incapable," which he applied for the purpose of driving out the late administration, the most constitutional and least presuming he had ever seen? What was become of that famous bill which had put the right hon. gent. in his present place, and which was immediately to gain an army to the country? It had effected nothing, and he was compelled to resort to the militia, and to abolish his own act. As to the militia, if they were to be reduced as nut warning, they ought to be discharged. He cautioned the house not to favour too much such measures as this. He looked on the militia as the best and most constitutional defence the country could have, and as the best check against any base attempt that might ever be made by an army' of mercenaries against the liberties of a country.
Mr. Fullerwas surprised that any gentleman could attempt to thwart the wishes of those brave men belonging to the Militia, who manifested a disposition to serve their country more effectually, by volunteering for the regular army. To give full effect to Such a disposition was the object of this bill, and therefore 'he would support it. With respect to the Militia system itself, he thought it to have much degenerated from the principle of its original establishment, and he on that account approved of its reduction. He considered ridiculous the language used with regard to the dangers of our situation. With such a force as we had, he contended that we had nothing to fear. With 500,000 men in arms, and a high-spirited people, there Was only only one thing wanted, and that was, that the hon. gent. on the other side (Mr.Fox) should take his seat with the right hon. proposer of this motion, to enable us to hid defiance to, and to overwhelm all the dangers that menaced us. Those two great men united, we should soon extinguish the power that threatened to annoy us; we should soon destroy the vessels on the other side of the water; we should speedily clip the wings of the bantam Emperor.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,rose reply, and spoke as follows. —I must beg leave, sir, to make a few Observations upon what has fallen from some of the hon. gent. opposite. And first,in answer to the question which has been put to me by an hon. colonel, I wish it to be understood, that I mean it should be left absolutely to the com-

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manding officer, in the first instance, to select any man whom he wishes to part with, and, that the whole management, conduct, and regulation of the business should be entirely at his discretion, without any interference or controul, provided that the men, so selected and willing to enlist for regular service, shall be of a certain Size, and under a certain age; and if you shall find men of that description, equal to four-fifths of the proposed number, then no farther step shall be taken, and such regiment shall be liable to no further call. This is the first plan which I propose; but if it should not be adopted, then I mean in the second case that the commanding officer shall have it in his power to set aside one half of his regiment, and that the recruiting for general service shall only be made from the remaining half. Now, this one half, so selected, and consisting, as we may presume, of the prime men, will, after the recruiting shall have taken place, he equal to two-thirds of the regiment so reduced. Each regiment I will, consequently, have a greater proportion of prime men, than it possesses at present; and, though it will be weaker in point of numbers, it will be stronger in prime Men, in relation to its amount. Now, sir, as to the charge made by a noble earl (Temple) against this measure, as involving the forfeiture of a pledge, I might say, as a direct and general answer, that I do not know any one, who can give a pledge to tie up parliament from any course which it may think proper to pursue. But as a man may no doubt tie himself up by a pledge, and a charge to that effect has been made against me, I say distinctly that I know nothing of any such pledge. I never gave any pledge of the kind. I am not conscious of any time or place, when or where I ever gave a pledge to that effect. I remember, indeed, that upon the occasion alluded to by a noble lord this night (Temple) that noble lord and his friends loudly condemned the converting of the militia establishment into a mode of recruiting for the line; and I then declared that it was not my intention. Now, if the noble lord and his friends means to exaggerate a conversation of that kind, and used upon that occasion, into a direct and positive pledge, I admit it. I certainly denied upon that occasion that I meant to make the Militia a mere machine for recruiting the army. I denied it then, and I deny it now, but I never gave any other pledge upon the subject. The circumstances under which a recruiting then took place are well
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known; they were fully explained at the time, and it was an extraordinary case, that could not effect or change the general system of the Militia. So far as to any positive pledge with which I am charged; but a noble marquis (of Douglas) has discovered a singular sort of constructive Pledge which he thinks may answer the same purpose. Alluding to the bill for reducing the militia, he reminds me of having said, at the time it was under discussion, that good faith ought to be kept with the Militia. The question of recruiting was not then in view, nor under consideration, so that I do not see how my observation can be brought to bear upon the present question. I said then, that its reduction, to a certain number, would he the best security, that when so reduced it would never be broken in upon again. These are the only pledges I ever gave. What other pledges the noble lords allude to, I know not. I only know what passed within -My own mind, and 'What I have said upon the subject. As to the charge of sending officers to recruit for the line in the neighbourhood of places where militia are quartered, it will be indeed limiting the scene of recruiting for the line to a narrow compass, if every such place must be avoided. The Officer, whose letter has been read, clearly did not conceive, from its contents, that he was acting wrong by recruiting in the neighbourhood of a Militia regiment. Is no officer to go into the vicinity of a corps of Militia for the purpose of recruiting? Where then is he to be sent? If a serjeant be sent out for the purpose of recruiting, he will go where he thinks he has the best chance of success. If he be a good and active person for the purpose, he will make a point of doing so, nor is government answerable for the irregularities which he may possibly commit. Government will guard, as well as they can, against irregularities, and it is their duty to provide for the carrying on of the recruiting service, in the way that shall produce the least trouble, injury, or inconvenience to the individual, or to any other branch of the public service; some irregularities will take place, government cannot prevent. Now, sir, as to another point, I perceive an attempt made to inculcate an idea, that by this measure I am heaping a burthen upon the landed interest, and that it is a cruel and unjust tax upon the land. The land, they say, has already paid for the men's limited service in the militia, and, therefore, it is cruel and unjust to the landed interest, that

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this man should be encouraged to extend his service more effectually, and that without any additional expense to the landed interest. A more singular and extraordinary argument than this I never heard. If I proposed to take away a man from the militia, and that another should be provided to supply his place, there would then be some consistency in the reasoning. I remember only one argument more that has been used, and requires an answer, The noble lord (Temple) has said, that at the time we are bringing forward this measure, we have also suspended courts martial, and that for the purpose of introducing insubordination into the Militia, and destroying its discipline, to facilitate the operation of the plan which I have proposed. Now, what is the actual state of the case? Some amendments were found necessary in the Mutiny bill, and we therefore suspended the proceedings of Courts martial during the progress of the bill, in order that the parties to be tried should have the benefit of the amended act. But the bill has been passed, and the persons charged with insubordination or misconduct, to whom the noble lord alludes,. may, be brought to trial, and punished, if guilty. Of course, there is nothing in this argument that applies to the case. With regard to the course which I would recommend, I propose, with the leave of the home, to bring in the bill this night, that it should be read a first time, ordered to be printed, and that the second reading should take place on Tuesday, when such gentlemen as are inclined to oppose it, may come prepared with their objections.
Earl Templein reply, said, that recruiting, parties were sent expressly into the neighbourhood where militia regiments were quartered, for the express purpose of enticing the men to enlist, and did not take that course by chance. With regard to another point, he did not state merely that courts martial were suspended, but he complained also that the execution of sentences were countermanded in cases of trials already had.
The question for leave to bring in the hill was then put, and carried, without a division. It was then brought up and read a first time.—Adjourned.

MINUTES.
—The Duke of Athol spoke in support of the appellants, in the case, the Earl of Kinnoul and others v. Mr. Maule and others; after which the Lord Chancellor delivered his opinion, and the decision of the Court of Session was affirmed.—The Exchequer Bills bill, the Sugar Drawback bill, the Irish Malt bill, the Irish Postage bill, the Irish Customs bill, the Irish Ex-
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cise bill, the Irish Stamp Duty bill, the Irish Spirit Warehousing bill, arid several private bills, were brought from the Commons, and read a first time.—Mr. Alcock, from the custom-house, presented an Account of the Sums in the hands of the Collectors on the 5th of January last, so far as the same could be made up.—Adjourned.