Sitting of 15 March 1805

WAR IN INDIA.
Mr. Francis.Before I proceed to the notice which I propose to give this day, I beg leave to ask the noble lord on the other side a question for information, very fit to be given to the house, and materially connected with the subject which I mean to bring under their consideration. By the papers on table it appears that the war now or lately carried on in India against Holcar, was declared by lord Wellesly so long ago as the 16th of April, 1804, and I presume must have been in his contemplation some time before that date. This we know indirectly through the government of Bombay. My question is, whether at this day the Court of Directors or the Select Committee have received any direct communication have received any direct communication from lord Wellesley of the orgin and the motives of this war?
Lord Castleragh.—My answer to the question put to me by the hon. gent. is that, at this day, no advices have been received directly from lord Wellesley, concerning the origin and the motives of the war with Holcar.
Mr. Francis—The fact of itself deserves the attention of the house; since nothing can be more precise and peremptory than the injunction of the law, by which the Governor General and Council are ordered, in all cased where hostilities shall be commenced, to communicate the same to the Directors, by the most expeditious means they can devise, with a full state of the information and intelligence upon which they shall have commenced such hostilities, and their motives and reasons for the same at large. I now, sir, beg leave to give notice that it is my intention, with permission of the house, to bring under their consideration a general view of the state of the British dominion in India, and to make a motion
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thereupon, as early in the week after next as may should with the convenience of the house. Sir, it would be desirable for any man, who wished to bring into view a question of great extent and consequence, and for me more than any other, that his audience should be in some degree possessed of the general nature of the subject. I cannot hope, though I very much desire it, that many gentlemen will have taken the trouble to examine attentively the whole of these voluminous papers relative to the late and present war with the Mahrattas. To save them some trouble and perhaps to invite them to read more and to enter farther into the inquiry, there are a few principle documents which I think will give a general insight into the subject, and engage them to proceed, and which I therefore beg leave to recommend to their attention. The instructions to colonel Collins; the instructions to colonel Close; the treaty of Bassein, from which, as it appears to me, the war may be dated; and, finally, the map of India annexed to the papers.
Lord Castlereagh.—The notice given by the hon. gent. is so general and undefined, that I am at a loss to conjecture what the objects are which he has in his view, and to which I should of course wish to turn my own thoughts. I therefore hope and request that the hon. gent. will state more distinctly the points to which his intended motion is directed, or at least the particular subjects which he means to discuss.
Mr. Francismade no reply.

SALT DUTY BILL.
Mr. Foxwished to state to his majesty's ministers the substance of a communication which he received by a letter from Yorkshire. It observed, that by the last Salt Duty bill there was a severe penalty laid on all retail shopkeepers who should sell at any thing lower than the standard price, and the same penalty was exacted in that now in its progress. When the present bill was brought in, an officer was sent down to Rotherham, and the places adjoining, to announce the new duty, and take an account of the stock in hand. In consequence of this, the salt manufacturers ceased to sell; but the retail shopkeepers continued to sell; at four-pence halfpenny a quart, as before, for which informations were laid against them to recover the penalties. He wished to know whether there proceedings took place by the authority of government?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied that the sending down of the officer was certainly premature, and that it would be un-

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reasonable to inflict any penalties upon the shopkeepers.

REPORT OF THE IRISH BUDGET.
Mr. Fostermoved the order of the day for bringing up the report of the committee of ways and means of Ireland.
Mr. J. Fitzgeraldopposed the bringing up of the report. He contended, that the loan was made to a larger amount than was necessary, and that if it were even necessary, the interest of it might be defrayed without having recourse to any new taxes. The revenue of Ireland was only taken at 4 millions; though every body knew that it would be considerably more. In the last year, the right hon. gent. (Mr. Foster) imposed additional taxes of 1,150,000l. by way of regulation, and 76,000l. to defray the expences of a direct loan; and he now stated, that there was out of last year's revenue a surplus of 843,000l. but that it must remain locked up in the Irish treasury until the proportion of Ireland to the joint expences of the empire should be paid. Upon this practice of retaining the surplus of the consolidated fund since the union, it would follow, that there must be now a total surplus of about 4 millions applicable to the expences of the year. This was a mode of proceeding very disadvantageous to Ireland. He sacrificed much by opposing the union; but now that it was effected, he considered the two countries as one, and thought they should be treated equally. The sums returned of duties due, but not immediately payable, were to the amount of 636,346l. which either were or ought to be now in the treasury of Ireland. This, as well as the balances in the hands of the collectors, ought to be a productive fund, and if it was not, he must call upon those who promised Ireland so much benefit from the union to put an end to this system of patronage and influence. It was allowed on all hands, to be a very great grievance to that country, and yet, notwithstanding so many complaints, the government had not removed any one of these collectors, though in a man's private concerns he would not allow an agent to pay himself, and also retain an eight part of his himself, and also retain an eighth part of his receipts, unless, on the assurance that the balance was quite safe.—He had a right, therefore, to take if for granted, that this was a solvent and sufficient answer, for which reason he should bring it into the amount of the year. He would even venture to ask the right hon. gent. whether he had reason to think that a remission was given of any of these balances
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and if he wanted a clue, he would refer to the memorable failure in 1800. These balances were so enormous a grievance, that as long as he had a seat in that house, he should bring the subject annually under the consideration of Parliament. Were these sums available, they would have superseded the necessity of a loan in this country of 2½ millions for Ireland, and it would be easy to recede from the plan of borrowing an other million, and to issue government paper in the room of it. Even the four million revenue promised, must be more uncertain under this system, as it must come through the hands of the same bankrupt collectors, who were already so very much in arrear. To prove the hardships Ireland laboured under, he contended, that one of its greatest difficulties arose from the debt it contracted in the year 1800, for the purpose of purchasing the representations of boroughs necessary to be disfranchised for the put, poses of the union.—He did not see why this should fall exclusively on Ireland, or why England, which benefitted by the union, should not pay a part of the expences of it. On these and various other grounds, he maintained that his country expected from the right hon. gent. that he would resist new taxes in Ireland, while there was a considerable balance due to it from England, which had the means of payment.
Mr. Dawsonsaid, the hon. gent. who spoke last had anticipated much of what he had intended to state. He confessed, that some of the taxes proposed appeared to him unexceptionable, though there were many of the articles upon which he wished all taxes to be abolished in that country. Though he had no objection whatever to the duty proposed on raisins, pepper, and coffee, yet he had every objection to an encreased duty on timber. Instead of being, as stated, a protection to the growing plantations in Ireland, it would encourage the cutting down of what little timber there was, and leave the cottages of the miserable peasantry perfectly unroofed. The present plantations being only in their infancy, Would not be available in less than half a century, and to depend upon them for immediate purposes, would be as absurd as that of a man who, being advised to drink cyder, should set about planting an orchard. He also reprobated the tax upon horses, and he could not well discriminate between horses for pleasure and horses for use, as they were both so generally united; but what he de-

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precated most was, the precedent which might induce some future chancellor of the exchequer to extend the tax to horses used in agriculture. He touched upon all the articles in the catalogue of taxes, and dwelt principally on the Postage Duty, to which he would, however, make no objection, in consequence of the assurance given by the right hon. gent. that the posts would be protested, and he also hoped that the revenue of it would be collected with more regularity and economy, instead of costing the country, as it did now, an expence of ,1l. 16s. per cent. While these subjects were under consideration, he hoped some attention would be paid to the districts of houses in Ireland, and for the distillery of that pernicious spirit called whiskey, which, though under excise, did not produce a shilling to the exchequer, while posts of smugglers were stationed through all parts of the country. To prevent these smuggling abuses, he hoped measures would be taken for establishing maritime turnpike gates, between the ports of Dublin, Waterford, and Donaghadee, and a more direct communication opened between the coast of Carnarvon and Ireland.
Sir J. Newportthought that the schedule, comprising such a multitude of merchandise, should have been submitted to the inspection of mercantile men, as it was impossible for any member of that house to be so good a judge of the local effect such taxes may have in different places, as the parties more immediately concerned. In referring to that schedule, he found the duties on spermaccti candles, copper, tar, &c. raised to seven times their former duties, while rattans, walking sticks, and other inferior articles, experienced a diminution. As to timber, he said the last duty had diminished the consumption so much, since the union, that the revenue on them was 11,000l. The present tax, he thought, would reduce the consumption so much, that the duty would not pay the expence of the collection, and would render the cottages uninhabitable. The want of domestic comforts at home frequently encouraged the inhabitants of the country to idleness and riotous conduct at home. In the south of Ireland, the want of timber was a most grievous hardship, as in the county of Tipperary there were farms to the extent of sometimes 2 miles, without a hedge or bush to be seen upon them. He complained greatly of the want of security to the mails in Ireland, which were sometimes robbed
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in the middle of the day by a single man only armed with a stick. The effect of this was that the letters from Waterford to Clonmell were obliged to be sent by special messengers, as none but boys are employed by the post-office. At the general post-office the letters were thrown by carelessly and promiscuously, and accessible to any one who should think proper to call for them. When the letters were sent out, it was usual for the postman to go home first to dinner, and then leave the letters behind him, while he went to a public house; so that if the expectant merchant went to the man's residence, he found the letters lying there totally unprotected; and the bills and notes were very generally either lost or embezzled. The costs of the accountants now were at their own discretion, liable to no check whatever, as there was no person to check them; and such he complained was the case in all the public boards and offices in Ireland.
Mr. Hawthornesaid, that the balances of the collectors, though stated at 1,200,000l. were actually no more than 1,30,000l. as the duties were not yet paid, which Were to produce the remainder. As to the general state of the country, he said, that so far from Ireland's being unfairly dealt with, the expences of the army, and works necessary for its defence, amounted to a much greater sum than the whole of its proportion to the joint expence of the empire; so that its taxes must have been much greater only for the union. To prove this, he referred to the accounts, which would shew, that the proportion of its debt accumulated more in the four years before the union, than in the four years since it had been carried into effect.
Mr. Fosterhe deemed it unnecessary to go into a detail of all the branches of the taxes alluded to. The appropriation of the produce of the sinking fund in Ireland was to pay the expences of the loan, the ratio of its separate expences, and paying the usual sum towards the sinking fund. If then there were arrears of money, there were also arrears of charges, and it was necessary to leave balances in the hands of the collectors to prepare for any contingency, and not be unprepared for any thing that may happen in case of any attempt on the part of the enemy. In fact, if these funds were taken away, there would be a necessity for other supplies to defray the coming charges, and if any part remained undisposed of, it would come in aid of the sup-

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plies of the ensuing year. He owned, indeed, that the balances remaining with the collectors were very great, in spite of all the exertions he had made to prevent it; but such had been long the practice in Ireland, and old habits could not speedily be got rid of. In respect to the duty on timber, he was glad the objections were stated, as this tax was mostly confined to deal board and staves; and all timber used in the butter and provision trade were totally exempted. The new duty, which was no more than 4s. 6d. on 72 cubic feet of timber of the value of 6l. would be scarcely felt by any one, for when, in consequence of the war, the price of the same quantity of timber rose from 3l. to 6l. the buildings continued without any diminution. In regard to the horse tax, also, gentlemen would find the exemptions were extended to all horses which carried or brought home a load; to all those used by clergymen, physicians, &c.; to those on which farmers rode to places of worship, to markets, or to the quarter sessions. He admitted that the conveyance of the mails was very insecure, and would remain so, unless, for the convenience of the public, and the safety of letters, the Post-office was enabled to employ other messengers than boys, who loitered on the way, and were exposed to robberies. To shew what uncertain couriers these were, he mentioned an instance of a gentleman who met one of these post-boys playing on the road, and the bag of letters lying by him. When the gentleman asked him how he could be so careless and dilatory? the boy replied, "Oh, please your honour, that is not the mail, it is only an express. " In proportion to the frequency of robberies, he said, in the same proportion must be the number of prosecutions, which rendered the expence of the collection something more than 100l. per cent.—The first resolution was then read and agreed to. On reading the second resolution, for the 6 per cent. duties,
Mr. Mayrose, and said, he had presented a petition against these duties, from the inhabitants of Belfast, and he begged the patience of the house till he stated a few observations in support of the petition of his constituents. They had not, he said, desired him to present it, from any wish to exempt themselves from the payments of taxes in general, but from a wish to have taxes imposed in such a manner, as to bear equally on all descriptions of persons. This tax was not so constituted, but bore entirely,
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and With peculiar hardship, on the retail importer, while the wholesale importer was altogether exempt from it. It therefore affected greatly the commercial industry of the country, and, as such, he hoped the right hon. gent. would agree to relinquish it.
Mr. J. Latoucheopposed the tax, as a tax upon the industry of retailers, who, if it was not for this duty, could, by united speculations, become themselves wealthy merchants in the course of time.
Mr. Kerstated that the tax was not only unjust, but it was almost unproductive, and should on every account be abandoned.
Sir C. Priceconsidered this duty as a check to the progress of commerce, by discouraging the activity of men of small capitals, and particularly injurious to the commerce between this country and Ireland.
Sir G. Hillcontended that the tax would prove of singular detriment to Ireland. He felt the impolicy of a tax on the retail dealers, and believed that it would undermine the internal trade of the Irish.
Sir J. Newportthought it only tended to produce and encourage manifold, manifest, and absolute frauds.
Mr. Foxwished that, as the tax would bear particularly hard on the retail trader, it might be abandoned.
Mr. Fostersaid that the tax had existed since the days of Cha. II. The operation of the tax was confined to tobacco, tea, and brandy. He was not for speculative opinions respecting taxes during a period of war. He would not think of giving up this tax, while he adhered to that on timber. He was grateful to the merchants of London for their advice to the merchants of Ireland; and hoped that the former would not decline taking that of the latter, on such questions as might tend to the general advantage of the two countries. The wholesale dealers had purchased the tax by sacrifices at the time it was first laid on; and the wholesale dealer had now a right to have his interests properly guarded.
Mr. Corrywas unfriendly to the tax. Three sessions ago, he had proposed the repeal of the tax. Yet, from good dispositions towards the right hon. gent. (Mr. Foster), s he had discouraged his own constituents from sending to him petitions against it, because he did not wish to cast obstacles in the way of the right hon. gent. in devising the taxes. He was not for taxing the patient retail dealer, tugging at the oar of industry and catching every fleeting breeze to make his little bark gain in safety the haven

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of his hopes. Had ever such a tax prevailed in England? There ought to be a similarity of situation and regulation with regard to the trade of every quarter of the empire. The union was founded on a principle of equality, and of similarity of situation; and of this the assimilation of the currency of the two countries furnished some proof.
Mr. Hawthornecould not assent to the motion. The tax was a bad one in every view of its operation and tendency.
Mr. Princepentered his solemn protest against a tax notoriously bearing on the industry of the individual, so as to lead to his ruin.—The question being called for, the house divided: for the 6 per cent. impost duty 107, against it 44, majority 63.—The other resolutions were then read, and agreed to.

LEGACY DUTY BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequermoved the order of the day for going into a committee on the Legacy Duty bill. As he had learned since he came into the house, that some difference of opinion existed respecting this measure, he should only observe then, that there were other stages in which it might he discussed.
Mr. Foxstated that there would be a considerable difference of opinion relative to that part of it which imposes a duty only on legacies to children. However, as there would be other stages for discussing it, he should forbear for the present from any opposition, reserving that for the report.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad not heard any thing to induce him to alter his opinion, or to give up what would be the most material part of the tax, amounting to 200,000l. He was ready to pay every attention to any observation on the subject.—The bill then passed through the committee, and the report was ordered to be received on Tuesday.—Adjourned.

CONDUCT OF JUDGE Fox.
Lord Aucklandcalled the attention of their lordships to a topic which he conceived to be of very se-
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rious and weighty importance, and relative to which something decisive ought to take place before the end of the session. The noble lord seemed to refer to cases of a similar nature with that now pending with respect to the proceedings in the instance of Judge Fox. With a reference to the principle he had in contemplation he acquainted their lordships, that he should, on Tuesday next, bring forward three propositions for the consideration of the house, in the shape of motions, nearly to the following effect: 1st. That a committee be appointed to search for precedents of cases of a member of that house bringing forward, in his place, accusations or charges against an individual, either upon his own authority, upon hearing, or upon the authority or information of others, &c. 2d. For an inquiry into precedents of the modes of proceeding adopted in that house in cases of charges made against individuals, otherwise than matters of record, or by petitions presented to that house; and, 3d. For an examination into precedents respecting complaints exhibited against any of his majesty's judges previous to the act of W. III. &c.—His lordship then moved, that the lords be summoned for Tuesday next.
Lord Grenvilleexpressed his opinion, that a question arising out of the intended motion first described by the noble lord, should be referred to the consideration of the twelve judges.
Lord Aucklandreplied, that a question of the kind had been nearly decided in a case that occurred in the year 1663.—The question being put, the lords were ordered to be summoned for Tuesday next.

MUTINY BILL.
The order of the day being read, for the commitment of this the different clauses and provisions of the bill were agreed to by the committee, until that which contains the provisions for compelling the administration, of oaths to witnesses, on regimental courts martial, was arrived at; when
The Marquis of Buckinghamrose and expressed his disapprobation of that part of the clause, as well in point of policy, as in the view of military regulation. He thought the old and uniform practice, with respect to regimental courts martial, should be continued. In the course of his long experience, he had never heard a single complaint, made, or one objection urged against it. The soldiers very seldom appealed from the decision of the regimental to the general courts martial; and, in the few instances

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where appeals were made, the sentences of the regimental courts martial were not only confirmed by the superior court, but the punishment greatly increased; and he never knew an instance of their decisions being reversed, or any kind of slur or stigma thrown upon them by the general courts. He entertained another objection to the clause; no provision was made for the attendance of a proper person or officer upon these courts martial where the evidence was now proposed to be taken upon oath, to take an account of the testimony so given. He alluded to a person empowered as the deputy judge advocates, to take an account of the proceedings, and to transmit them to the proper officer; such a regulation was the more called for, as the witnesses were liable to the pains and penalties of perjury, and without it accusations of that kind must be made from the loose and vague recollections of the persons present. He objected to the proposed arrangement, on grounds of wisdom and policy. The course hither to pursued ought not be departed from; but if the new regulation was deemed an improvement, such a precaution as he had suggested ought at least to be adopted. He assured their lordships he came forward on the present occasion, merely from a sense of duty, and from his zeal for the well-being of the army, and the general good of the service. Constituted as the clause then was, he must oppose it.
Earl Camdenin general terms, defended the clause as it then stood in the bill. He conceived the provision by no means liable to the objections entertained by the noble marquis. He thought it would add a degree of solemnity to the proceedings at such courts martial, and obviously give a greater security for the correctness of the testimony given by witnesses.
The Duke of Cumberlandexpressed his coincidence in the opinions of the noble marquis, on the present occasion; and, after what had fallen from him, a few words from himself would suffice. First, he should observe, that, in the course of his own experience, and as the result of his inquiries from able and intelligent officers, he never heard a single objection to the long-established mode observed in regimental courts martial; then why adopt a measure which must induce the belief, that the former practice was complained of? Secondly, he objected to the alteration, as more likely to tend to an increased severity, instead of a more lenient system; inasmuch as the discretionary power
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of the members of such courts martial, who were generally inclined, whenever it could be done with the least regard to propriety, to a lenient mode of proceeding, would be the more shackled, in consequence of the proposed alteration.
Lord Hawkesburyagreed with what was stated by the noble marquis and the royal duke, with respect to the general conduct of regimental courts martial. He had every reason to believe, that, as much of what was correct, humane, fair, and honourable, prevailed in these tribunals, as in any other whatever. He was free to admit, no absolute necessity existed for the alteration; Yet he felt it would involve such advantages, as should induce its adoption. He referred principally to the check and controul it would establish as to improper evidence on the part of persons not military; with many of whom, an unfounded degree of prejudice and clamour obtained, with respect to the character and profession of a soldier. It established some degree of security as to evidence of that kind, and would give an air of proper solemnity to the whole of the proceedings in regimental courts martial.
The Duke of Clarenceobserved, he agreed with every thing that had fallen from a very near relation of his, as to the clause in question. He cordially agreed with the sentiments of the noble marquis, in the present instance, particularly in the propriety of appointing a superintending officer to attend at the regimental courts martial, for the purposes mentioned, and he seemed to think the paymaster would be a proper person for the purpose. Though he highly respected every thing that fell from the noble secretary of state, yet, in the case before them, he disagreed with him in every thing he observed, save one point, which was, that no necessity existed for the proposed alteration; and he appealed to the reverend bench, whether, as Christian prelates, they could approve a measure, tending to the multiplication of oaths?
Lord Mulgracedefended the clause at some length, and with much ability. He differed from a royal duke, for whose character and opinions he had the most profound respect, in his idea, that the alteration would tend to a system of increased severity; on the contrary, he thought, by providing additional securities for the correctness of the proceedings, it must have an opposite effect. With regard to the appeal made by another illustrious personage, to the rev. bench, if it went for any thing, it

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involved an application to the bishops to bring in a bill to abolish the administration of oaths in general. Upon the whole, thinking the system of regimental courts martial would be every way ameniorated by the clause, he felt it his duty to support it.—The question being put their lordships divided, when there appeared for the clause 22, against it 13, majority 9. The bill being gone through without any amendment, the house was resumed, and the report of the bill forthwith received.—Adjourned.