Sitting of 18 June 1805

Preamble
The house was counted by the speaker at four O'clock, when the requisite number of members not being present, it was immediately adjourned till to-morrow.

MINUTES.
Pursuant to the order of the day, their lordships resolved into a committee of privileges, and, lord Walsingham having taken the chair, counsel and evidence were further heard, respecting the claim of lady Henry Fitzgerald to the above barony, the duke of Rutland's defence of his title to the same, &c.; after which the farther consideration of the case was deferred till Friday.—The bills upon

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the table were forwarded in their respective stages. Among these the British and Irish Militia pay and clothing bills, the lottery bill, the Irish Paper Duty, and the Militia Adjutants' bills, were read a second time, and severally ordered to be committed.

STATE OF IRELAND.
The order of the day being read:
The Earl of Suffolk rose to bring forward his promised motion on the above subject. He prefaced it by a speech of considerable length, in the course of which, he expatiated upon the superior policy and expedience of enquiry on the principle which he was about to recommend; a principle, which was sanctioned by the authority and recommendation of that statesman and philosopher, lord chancellor Bacon, and to the want of a proper attention to which, was in a great degree to be attributed the loss of our late possessions in North America. He dwelt upon the great importance of Ireland as a component and integral part of the united kingdom, and its peculiar political importance, resulting from its geographical situation, and the various local advantages possessed by that island. This important part of the united Kingdom, he was warranted by authority, in saying, was far from being in a tranquil state; this he could fairly infer from various opinions upon the subject, which were given by many noble lords in the course of late important discussions on the catholic question, and more especially from the legislative authority of the two bills passed in the early part of the session, exclusively applicable to Ireland; the one for suspending the habeas corpus act, and the other authorising the exercise of martial law. Politically speaking, therefore, Ireland was not to be regarded as in a tranquil state; and, with respect to its domestic and internal consideration, he trusted he could prove it to be, so far as to lay a ground for his intended motion, in a state, comparatively, of the most deplorable misery. To the present unfortunate situation of Ireland, he observed, various causes contributed, and some of the principal of these he should endeavour to explain to their lordships. In this view, what struck him as one of the most prominent, was the consideration of tithes, which under the existing regulations, and in the way in which they were collected in Ireland, were to be regarded as an intolerable grievance. Their lordShips would recollect, that the great body of the peasantry and the lower class of the people in that country
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were of the Roman catholic persuasion, in a proportion of at least nine-tenths; these were liable to the payment of tithe, for the maintenance of a church of which they were not members, in addition to what they contributed to the support of the clergy of their own communion, and thus had they, the lower and poorer orders of the people, a peasantry, perhaps the most distressed of any in existence, to pay a double tax. Let their lordships consider the point, and put it to their own feelings; it was what none of them could approve of. In his conclusions on the part of the subject, he was borne out by the opinions of the insurgent chiefs. Doctors M. Nevin and Emmett, on their examination, on being questioned as to the point, said, the Roman Catholic peasantry of Ireland did not care a farthing about emancipation; What they wished for was, the abolition of tithes.—He next expatiated on the distressed situation of the Irish peasantry, which he described as greatly aggravated by the present tithe system in that country. It was well known, that the principal food of the grounds on which that root was raised, the peasant paid a very high rent; four, five, and, in some cases, even ten pounds a year rent; added to this, the cultivation of the potatoe required a greater proportion of manual labour than any other vegetable, and from these the tithe was rigidly exacted; a grievance, which those combined considerations greatly aggravated. His lordships expatiated a great deal on the salutary consequences, which, he conceived, would result to Ireland, and to the empire at large, from catholic emancipation, and seemed to argue, from a variety of proceeding which took place in Ireland, and from the language held out from various quarters, particularly from the year 1793 to the completion of the measure of union, that the catholics were led to imagine, if they were not promised it in terms, that their constitutional emancipation would be one of the earliest results of the union. That such might in that event safely and beneficially take place, he stated, was the opinion and sentiment of some of the most celebrated statesman and writers of that nation, who, in general, included such a principle: some of these were referred to by his lordships, as well as the speech of the lord-lieutenant to the Irish parliament in 1793; of which the projected amelioration of the state of the Irish catholics and peasantry formed a leading feature;and the ad-

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dresses from certain Roman catholic meetings in the counties of Wexford, Waterford, and Cork, with the lord-lientenant, lord castlereagh, were,on the same principle, referred to by his lordships. He continued to expatiate upon the salutary effects which he argued, would attend catholic emancipation, and commented on what he thought the injustice and oppression of continuing the present system with respect to the Irish catholics. He described the wretched and miserable situation of the Irish peasantry as in a great degree owing to these odious and impolitic restraints; referring, as he proceeded, to the opinions of various writers upon the subject, and on the state of Ireland: they were ill clothed, ill fed, and ill lodged; the luxury of shoes, stockings, or meat food, which their country so abundantly produced, was unknown to them. And these he contrasted with the situation of the corresponding class of the inhabitants of South Britain, where a different system, civil and ecclesiastical, pervailed. He dwelt upon the generous and affectionate dispositions of that peasantry; and, generally speaking, when left to themselves, of their docility and innoffensive demeanour. He lamented the late decision of parliament on the subject of Irish Roman catholic emancipation, and adverted to the fears which seemed to be entertained, in a legislative point of view, of such a measure as groundless and absured. No serious injury to either church or state could ever be apprehended from the introduction of perhaps seven or eight Irish Roman catholic commoners into a legislative assembly of between six and seven hundred protestants; nor from the circumstance of eleven or twelve catholic peers taking their seats among their lordships. Besides, in that point of view, some degree of restriction may be well interposed; for instance, those who changed their religion from the protestant to the catholic, should not be allowed to sit in parliament. He only threw this out as a general idea. He was a strong advocate for the principles of toleration; genuine christianity went not to ordain religious establishments in a state; and he panegyrised the system adopted in America with respect to religion, where every denomination of Christians was equal in the administrating government; neither were the Irish catholics so well treated as their fellow-subjects of the same persuasion, in other
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parts of his Majesty's dominions. He adverted particularly to those of Canada, who forming a great majority of the inhabitants of that part of the empire, had their religion established in their favour; and why he would ask, was the coronation oath of the sovereign to be held binding, with respect to the catholics of Ireland, and not suffered to affect those of Canada? on the beneficial effects, either in a view of internal or external policy, of the system adopted with respect to Canada; he dwelt shortly, and referred to the authority of certain writers on that subject, which he argued, bore him out in his conclusion. Another consideration, which, he said, contributed to the miserable situation of the Irish peasantry, to which the present unfortunate state of that country was so greatly owing, was the extreme low prices of labour. This, he observed, was, in many parts of Ireland, not more than five pence per day; though the rents paid for land, were, upon the whole, as high, or rather higher, than those paid in England; and one of the leading expedients which he would recommend to ameliorate the condition of the poor in that country, would be to raise the prices of labour. With their present wages, it was astonishing how they could protract existence: to many parts of the province of Munster, he understood these observations would particularly apply. Another leading consideration, and which greatly contributed to the present state of Ireland, and the distressed condition of the poor, was the system in general adopted by absentee landlords, and which in some points of view,though they mostly let their estates at lower rents than others in the first instance, operated as a great grievance; what he principally adverted to was, their practice of letting their lands to what were called "middle men," who usually let them out again to the occupying tenent at exhorbitants rents. This system was equally injurious to the head landlord, and the person who tilled the ground. By absentees he did not mean those noble lords who attended their duty in that house, but great landed proprietors, who rarely, if ever visited ireland; and he instanced some cases where, by the adoption of a different plan, the occupier of the ground was considerably benefitted in his situation, and the rents of the head landed at the same time greatly increased; and he also adverted to some proceeding known to himself, which, he contended, evinced the neces-

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sity with a reference to the amelioration of the state of Ireland, of some alterations in that part of the system. All these considerations combined, indeed, and the notorious internal situation of Ireland called for it, shewed the necessity of an enquiry into the real state of that valuable and important part of the united kingdom, in order that government and the legislature may, as far as practicable, ascertain what steps were proper and necessary to be taken for ameliorating the condition of its inhabitants, and the security of that part of the empire. A great majority of the people in that country were, he contended, obviously dissatisfied with their present condition; and he feared, that the large armed force, which it was found necessary to maintain in Ireland, was not so much for the purpose of repelling invasion, as to suppress insurrection. With a view to obviate every thing unfavourable that might be apprehended, and to lay the groud work of the beneficial results to which he alluded, he would move their lordships, "that an humble address be presented to his majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to appoint commissioners to enquire into the present state of that part of the united kingdom called Ireland, and to order that the said commissioners do report the state of each country; and that the same be laid before his majesty and the two houses of parliament."—on the question being put;
The Earl of Limerick rose, and observed that as an Irishman, he must directly oppose the motion of the noble earl, as likely to produce great mischiefs. Indeed, for a long time, he should not have been speaking of Ireland, till, by further attention,and the frequent repetition of the word, he found the noble earl meant to apply his observations to that part of the united kingdom. In the present instance, he assured their lordships he would intrude upon their patience but a very short time; and, first, he would observe, that one of the leading propositions of the noble earl, as he understood its application, would go to deprive the protestant established church of Ireland of its means of support: he alluded to the destruction of tithes. Were their lordships prepared to accede to any proposition that would tend to that? With regard to the noble earl's description of the state of Ireland: with respect to the condition of its peasantry, the low prices of labour, he must have made his calculations upon what
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was the state of those things a great many years since. He had, from the consideration, whether fortunate or unfortunate, he could not say, of living a great many years in Ireland, much personal and local knowledge in these respects. He could so far controvert his statements. And , with respect to what may be matters of opinions his conclusions were formed from authorities, very different from those referred to by the noble earl. He knew full well and was free to confess, that the situation of Ireland, in many of the parts adverted to, was by no means so favourable as that of this country; nor would they bear a comparison; but for this he would contend, that Ireland had been for many years back and still continued in a state of progressive improvement and amelioration, and which there was every reason to expect would increase every day: to adopt the measure recommended by the noble earl, therefore especially when the situation of that country, menaced by invasion, and the empire at large,embarked in an arduous and extensive warfare, was considered, would be impolitic and dangerous in the highest degree. His lordships then shortly adverted to the general nature of the noble earl's address to the house, a great part of which applied to the question of catholic emancipation; a subject which had so recently, so fully, and so temperately been canvassed in that house, and solemnly decided upon by their lordships. On that part of the noble earl's speech, he should not, therefore, offer a single observation. He then adverted to a few of the noble earl's observations respecting the absentee landlords, and particularly to a circumstance introduced into that part of his speech, which, it seemed, admitted by the noble earl. He apologised to their lordships for this short occupation of their time; for his part he felt it decidedly his duty to oppose the motion.
The Duke of Norfolk begged leave to offer a few observations on the subject. With respect to those mischievous effects, which the noble earl, who had last spoke, seemed to apprehended, in case the motion was agreed to, he confessed no such apprehensions presented themselves to his mind. With respect to the important subject of tithes, his grace observed, that finding the law in that respect coeval in this country. With the laws for the conversation of every other kind of property, he considered them as entitled to equal regard. They were the

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property of the church, to be respected as such, and involved considerations affecting the union of church and state, which he trusted, would always continue to support each other. With respect to what had been said as arising from the topic of catholic emancipation, he fully agreed that that important subject had been fairly, fully, and cooly discussed by the house, and though he formed one of a comparatively small minority, who thought it was proper their lordships should go into a committee on that subject, yet, he bowed to the decision of the majority of their lordships, and practically must consider such decision as rightly made. Yet he seemed to think that, from those discussions, matter transpired, which tented to shew the expediency of such an enquiry as his noble friend proposed. In some points of view, he disapproved of partial quotations from authors; they required a great portion of the context, in order fully to ascertain the sense of the writer; and one particularly, whom his noble relative had more than once quoted that evening, correctly, no doubt, one with whom he had the happiness and the honour to be long acquainted, the late archdeacon Paley, went on to say, speaking of the subject of tithes, that which, in his mind operated in a different way from what his noble relative seemed to understand it. Adverting to the state of the established religion of Ireland, he observed, there existed, some years ago that which should induce him to think the superior clergy of that country highly reprehensible. He alluded to the circumstances of many parishes of considerable extent, and which paid all the clerical dues, being not only without a clergyman, but even without a church. He thought the most favourable epoch for redressing many of the grievances adverted to by his noble relative, as affecting Ireland, was the occasion of the adjustment in 1782, when Ireland was relived from the commercial fetters of this country. A peculiarly favourable oppurtunity was then presented. With respect to the question before the House, he thought it was one that demanded an opinion from some of his majesty's ministers.
Lord Hawkesbury observed, the motion under consideration was one which he should feel it his duty to resist, were it only upon the ground of its being very ill-timed: it also involved consideration, which, under the present circumstance and situation, not only of Ireland, but of the empire as large,
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would induce him to object to it. With a noble earl, he thought it would be productive at present of mischievous effects. With him, he thought that a great deal of the noble mover's speech was applicable to the question of catholic emancipation which, with the noble duke, he thought had been most fully, fairly and temperately considered in that house, as much as any topic that ever came before parliament; and that being solemnly decided upon, by a large majority, not only of that, but of the other branch of the legislature; he felt it unnecessary to offer a single observation upon all the relevant part of the noble earl's speech. With respect to the important consideration of tithe, on which the noble secretary, in the course of his observation, laid considerable stress; he most cordially agreed with the position of the noble duke, that they constituted property, and that of the most sacred kind indeed, the gentleman alluded to by the noble earl, Messrs Emmett and M'Nevin, when they were examined on the part of the government of Ireland, seemed to have given their evidence very ingenuously upon that subject; they, after giving their opinions as to the wishes of the Irish peasantry, for the abolition of tithes, went on to admit, that were those abolished, the rents would be immediately raised by the landlords, in a proportionate degree, so that the relavant situation of the peasantry would, so far, remain the same. In fact, to abolish the tithe, would be to rob the clergy; they were their property, and, in the eye of the law, equally sacred with every other description of property. The benefits of them were, in fact, equally experienced, and enjoyed by the land-owners, as it was obvious that these, from the consideration of their lands being liable to tithe, purchased them proportionably at a less rate; and this was a consideration, independent of the political and religious points of view in which the subject may be considered, which should place them, equally with every other species of property, under the protection of the laws, and such be trusted, they would for ever remain. In concluding, his lordship alluded to the very advanced period of the session, and the consequence of their attendance as highly improper for the consideration of a subject of a nature equally general and important, and which branded out into such a variety of interesting details, and which additionally operated upon his mind in inducing him to decide against the motion.
The Earl of Suffolk spoke in explanation, and stated that his ideas did not go to the abolition of tithes, which, he agreed, should be considered as the property of the church. He adverted to and enforced some of the proposition he had in the first instance advanced, and referred to the act of Elizabeth, which recognised the principle, and enjoined enquiries enquiries of the kind, as we understood his lordship, through the medium of the judges, who were to report the result of their enquiries to the crown, and which he thought it would be well to act upon.—After some farther observations, the question was put, and decided in the negative, without a division.—Adjourned.